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View Full Version : Thinking of getting a UPS how safe are they?



matthekc
January 15th, 2011, 08:32 PM
Hi guys, I'm starting a new tower and the power where I live isn't the greatest... I was thinking of getting a UPS, but after a little research I have found they occasionally burst into flames. Although most of these stories seem to include I daisy chained two UPS's together it made me wonder.

Do any of you use a UPS?

How safe are they?

clanky
January 15th, 2011, 08:50 PM
All PC's at work have UPS's attached, have done for the last 15 years, never known one to burst into flames.

If your local power supply isn't great then I would suggest that having a UPS is much safer than not having one.

themarker0
January 15th, 2011, 08:53 PM
I use them all the time. The only thing, don't skip out and be cheap with them. Buy a good expensive home unit. Expect 90-120 for a very good unit.

matthekc
January 15th, 2011, 09:00 PM
How about this one?

MARUSON Tower Series TOW-1800LCD 1600 VA 8 Outlets UPS BATTERY BACKUP

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16842217009&cm_re=ups_battery_backup-_-42-217-009-_-Product

I've just had laptops the last few years so the power hasn't been an issue but now that I want a tower I want to get a good UPS.

abdulapopoola
January 15th, 2011, 09:01 PM
UPS are great; we use them here to protect against power cuts and surges; they work fine and protect our electronics.
I've never know/seen any UPS that burst into flames too.

psusi
January 15th, 2011, 09:12 PM
Where did you hear such craziness? That could happen to any poorly designed electronic device, but to be sold in the US they must be UL listed, which means they comply with design standards to make sure this does not happen.

I suppose mistakes do sometimes happen though, like that rash of bad laptop batteries a year or two ago that tended to burst into flames.

Paqman
January 15th, 2011, 09:12 PM
after a little research I have found they occasionally burst into flames.

Wut? :lolflag:

matthekc
January 15th, 2011, 09:30 PM
Well here for one.

http://www.crn.com/news/channel-programs/18829641/apc-issues-voluntary-product-recall-cites-potential-fire-hazard.htm

This one is his fault he daisy chained them which I've learned should never be done.

http://sanity.blog-city.com/encountering_a_fire_safety_hazard_with_a_belkin_up s_device.htm

After asking you guys I guess the risk is low but I think it exists.

At any rate does the one I'm looking at seem like a decent one?

disabledaccount
January 15th, 2011, 09:31 PM
I've seen many damaged UPSes - none of them have exploded or ignited, but it is possible if built-in battery will get internall short circuit (very very rare case).

Selecting UPS You have to ask if it can work with APFC PSU - there are still many models that won't work properly, f.e. they won't provide full power. You should also take into account that f.e. 600VA UPS can deliiver only about 400W real power.

matthekc
January 15th, 2011, 09:38 PM
Okay I'm planning on building a decent rig quad phenom, a decent video card, a few disk drives for mirroring, probably 450 - 650 watt supply what should I get.

disabledaccount
January 15th, 2011, 09:57 PM
You can use some of online power calculators to get overview about how much power You need, then add ~20% (PSU efficiency).
UPS nominal power (VA) should be at least 50% greater - this is worst case.

Secondary factor is sustain time (on battery) - "bigger" UPS will have longer time with the same load.

Personally I prefer APC Back-UPS'es - I have almost no problems with them (not counting battery wear/replacement)

matthekc
January 15th, 2011, 10:18 PM
Well thanks for your thoughts guys I think I'm only going to put the tower and a few external hard disks on the UPS the rest can just get surge protection so I think I don't need a ton of juice.

I may go with this one the comments say it has good Linux support.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16842102070

CyberPower Intelligent LCD Series GreenPower UPS CP1350AVRLCD 1350 VA 810 Watts 4 x 5-15R Battery/Surge Protected 4 x 5-15R Surge Protected Outlets UPS

CharlesA
January 15th, 2011, 10:20 PM
+1 to APC UPSes, I use apcupsd to manage them as well.

Old_Grey_Wolf
January 15th, 2011, 10:47 PM
At work we have been using UPS for a long time. I never heard of a problem with them until last week. Of the hundreds of UPS that we have one decided to smoke about two weeks ago. It didn't burst into blames, it just started to smoke.

It has caused a stir at the company, not because it started to smoke, but, the smoke detectors didn't work. :)

I have worked with electronics for a long time. Sometimes a component fails causing some smoke; however, they don't actually catch on fire. Well, they did when capacitors were made from paper decades ago. Electronic components aren't made from products that burn very well these days. Even the plastic cases the computers use have flame retardation chemicals added to them.

In my opinion, your home is more likely to burn down because of a faulty kitchen appliance than it is from a computer or computer accessory.

psusi
January 16th, 2011, 12:20 AM
http://www.crn.com/news/channel-programs/18829641/apc-issues-voluntary-product-recall-cites-potential-fire-hazard.htm

Nearly a million units in use and 3 reports of a problem? Probably clogged with dust and locked in a hot box. That would explain why they could not replicate the problem.



This one is his fault he daisy chained them which I've learned should never be done.

http://sanity.blog-city.com/encountering_a_fire_safety_hazard_with_a_belkin_up s_device.htm



This article is BS. First, the picture shown is a wall outlet that has had a dead short at the terminal screws. He also probably had a faulty breaker that did not trip, or did not trip fast enough, since that kind of damage takes a few seconds of current well in excess of the 15 amps the breaker is supposed to trip at. Faulty home wiring, not the UPS. Second, the line about daisy chaining is a cop-out made up by the minimum wage phone jockey, which is why there are no warnings about it in writing.

juancarlospaco
January 16th, 2011, 03:10 AM
APC, others dont exist...

MisterGaribaldi
January 16th, 2011, 03:13 AM
Well, I've never heard of anyone successfully attacking someone with a UPS. So, quite possibly, they're reasonably safe.

johntaylor1887
January 16th, 2011, 03:53 AM
I wouldn't run my computer without one. We get frequent surges/blackouts where I live.

oldsoundguy
January 16th, 2011, 04:13 AM
I have 5 APC 1400 units. One for each computer station and one on my AV equipment and one on my aquarium.

No problems other than the usual .. it's time to replace the batteries (they last ME between 3 & 4 YEARS.)

One caution .. do not overload the units. Batteries on charge too long WILL overheat and WILL actually MELT. (this might be the source of the supposed "fires" reported.) Keep all flammables at arms distance.

themarker0
January 16th, 2011, 05:06 AM
How about this one?

MARUSON Tower Series TOW-1800LCD 1600 VA 8 Outlets UPS BATTERY BACKUP

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16842217009&cm_re=ups_battery_backup-_-42-217-009-_-Product

I've just had laptops the last few years so the power hasn't been an issue but now that I want a tower I want to get a good UPS.

Its great. Even with laptops you should at least invest a surge protector. You can get ones that go with your cable. Regardless its a great one you linked too. It'll do fine.

tgalati4
January 16th, 2011, 05:19 AM
I've had a plastic APC melt on me. I've had a metal APC explode internally(but contained) due to a lightning strike. I would stick with metal cases.

johntaylor1887
January 16th, 2011, 06:17 AM
I've had a plastic APC melt on me. I've had a metal APC explode internally(but contained) due to a lightning strike. I would stick with metal cases.

When you think about it, there's always someone, somewhere, who has had gadget "A" either smoke, short, catch fire, stop working, act weird, and otherwise **** you off. But overall, I wouldn't worry about UPS's specifically.

tgalati4
January 16th, 2011, 06:26 AM
Unless your house catches fire because your UPS is made of poisonous catfood.

westom1
January 16th, 2011, 03:27 PM
Well thanks for your thoughts guys I think I'm only going to put the tower and a few external hard disks on the UPS A UPS is designed a cheap as possible. Cost of replacing the battery is almost as much as a new UPS.

So cheap that UPS power in battery backup mode is some of the 'dirtiest' electronics typically sees. And so cheap that power that dirty causes a UPS to go into battery backup mode.

Your computer and all other electronics are not disturbed even by 'dirtiest' power from a UPS. Electronic power supplies are that robust. Even convert that 'dirt' into useful electricity. But UPS internal supplies are not as robust. So, if a first UPS goes into battery backup mode, then the second 'daisy chained' UPS gets all upset, disconnects from its AC power cord, and also goes into battery backup mode. Power from a first UPS cannot be used by the second. Daisy chaining does nothing useful because UPS power is so ‘dirty’.

No UPS claims protection from destructive surges. Its only function is to output power with lots of spikes and other 'dirt' when a blackout happens. 'Dirtiest' power that may upset a UPS is also called ideal clean power to all computers and electronics. UPS does not do any other effective protection. And does not claim to.

If it does surge protection, then anyone can post a manufacturer spec number that claims that protection. Nobody will. I will ask this same question repeatedly. No UPS claims effective protection in any numeric spec. That near zero protection is the myth created by lies in advertising.

A UPS does temporary and 'dirty' power during a blackout. For electronics protection, a solution must be located elsewhere. The superior solution also costs tens of times less money.

Output from a UPS in battery backup mode is to 'dirty' as to be harmful to small electric motors and power strip protectors. If a second UPS in a daisy chain has any protection, then spikes from that first UPS will harm protection in the second. Same reason why UPS manufacturers subtly recommend no power strip protectors or small motors on their UPS. Its power is so dirty as to sometimes even confuse PFC circuits in some new computers. UPS power is that dirty. But should never cause a second UPS to burn. Power so dirty as to harm near zero protector circuits inside that second UPS. Power so dirty as to also be called ideal power to more robust electronics.

It a UPS is doing more than just temporary and 'dirty' power, then anyone can post the manufacturer numbers that say so. Power so 'dirty' from a first UPS can easily confuse the second UPS; cause it to also go into battery backup mode. First UPS in a daisy chain does nothing useful because UPS output power can be so 'dirty'.

CharlesA
January 16th, 2011, 04:38 PM
You don't daisy chain two UPS units off one another. A UPS is meant to be plugged directly into the wall.

If you run them in that configuration, of course both UPSes are going to have problems. If the first one goes on battery power, the second one also goes on battery power due to a drop in voltage.

See here (http://nam-en.apc.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/1495/kw/how%20to%20connect%20UPS).

All the surge protectors and UPSes I've seen have an "equipment protection" policy, if your equipment is damaged during normal use of the product.

You can find the one for APC here (http://www.apc.com/support/service/equipment_protection_policy.cfm).

psusi
January 16th, 2011, 05:45 PM
One caution .. do not overload the units. Batteries on charge too long WILL overheat and WILL actually MELT. (this might be the source of the supposed "fires" reported.) Keep all flammables at arms distance.

One has nothing to do with the other. How long it takes to recharge the batteries depends on how far you ran them down. Most consumer UPS have a weak charger and can take up to 8-12 hours to recharge. And if you overload the UPS the breaker will trip and it will shut down.



A UPS is designed a cheap as possible. Cost of replacing the battery is almost as much as a new UPS.

Cost of batteries: $20-$40
Cost of UPS: $100-$150


So cheap that UPS power in battery backup mode is some of the 'dirtiest' electronics typically sees. And so cheap that power that dirty causes a UPS to go into battery backup mode.

Depends on what UPS you get. The cheapest ones just output a square wave. Decent ones at least use a modified sine wave.


Your computer and all other electronics are not disturbed even by 'dirtiest' power from a UPS. Electronic power supplies are that robust. Even convert that 'dirt' into useful electricity. But UPS internal supplies are not as robust. So, if a first UPS goes into battery backup mode, then the second 'daisy chained' UPS gets all upset, disconnects from its AC power cord, and also goes into battery backup mode. Power from a first UPS cannot be used by the second. Daisy chaining does nothing useful because UPS power is so ‘dirty’.

Got any evidence of this? I've seen daisy chained UPSes work just fine. They almost always have a transformer block coming off the input which rounds off a square wave.


No UPS claims protection from destructive surges.

Yes, they do. Go read the warranty claims of some of them. They all specify that they protect against surges up to X joules.


If it does surge protection, then anyone can post a manufacturer spec number that claims that protection. Nobody will. I will ask this same question repeatedly. No UPS claims effective protection in any numeric spec. That near zero protection is the myth created by lies in advertising.

Here's one: http://www.cyberpowersystems.com/products/ups-systems/soho-ups/UP1200.html?selectedTabId=specifications&imageI=#tab-box

1780 joules of surge suppression.


Output from a UPS in battery backup mode is to 'dirty' as to be harmful to small electric motors and power strip protectors. If a second UPS in a daisy chain has any protection, then spikes from that first UPS will harm protection in the second.

And you base this on what? The whole point of surge protection is that it grounds out the surge so it does not make it to the output. Since the surge doesn't even make it to the second one, it can't harm it. Even if it did, to do harm, the surge would have to be many times larger than what it is capable of handling, like a direct lightning strike.


You don't daisy chain two UPS units off one another. A UPS is meant to be plugged directly into the wall.

I wouldn't recommend it, but again, I have seen it done and it works.


If you run them in that configuration, of course both UPSes are going to have problems. If the first one goes on battery power, the second one also goes on battery power due to a drop in voltage.

No, the whole point of a UPS is to maintain the correct output voltage at all times. The link you posted to APC is about shorting the outputs of two UPSes together to put them in parallel, not daisy chain them in series.

CharlesA
January 16th, 2011, 05:53 PM
No, the whole point of a UPS is to maintain the correct output voltage at all times. The link you posted to APC is about shorting the outputs of two UPSes together to put them in parallel, not daisy chain them in series.

My search fu failed me.

Thanks for the info. :)

westom1
January 16th, 2011, 07:20 PM
If the first one goes on battery power, the second one also goes on battery power due to a drop in voltage. Reason for a UPS is so that voltage *does not* drop. Now you are telling us a UPS in battery backup mode causes voltage drops?

Why every answer must always include 'reasons why'. The reason why 'not to daisy chain' makes no sense.

Second the citation from APC is about parallel power. Not about daisy chaining.

And third, the cited warranty says not using a 'whole house' protection system voids the APC warranty. Well if a homeowner earths 'whole house' protection (which costs tens or 100 times less money), then he does not need a UPS for hardware protection.

What does that warranty really say? Earth a 'whole house' protector so that this UPS will not be damaged by surges. Or, how surge protection is done anywhere that damage must not happen. Earthing is also how it was done even 100 years ago.

westom1
January 16th, 2011, 07:34 PM
1780 joules of surge suppression.
1780 joules means it only uses 590 joules and never more than 1190 joules. How does that stop and absorb surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules? ‘Near zero’ protection. Just enough above zero so that it can hype 100% protection subjectively in sales brochures. Hearsay is recommending protection.

Why does it not list protection from each type of surge? Because it does not claim to protect from any typically destructive surge. And because it does not have that always required, dedicated, and short connection to single point earth ground. The protection is obviously mythical. As demonstrated by specifications not provided. And even by joules numbers that say near zero protection.

UPS has one function. To provide temporary and the 'dirtiest' power during a blackout. Nothing more. Anything else it might do is already done better inside each electronic appliance. How does near zero joules - 590 - somehow become protection from surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules? It doesn't. They just hope you ignore numbers they provide only because it is required.

psusi
February 22nd, 2011, 10:24 PM
1780 joules means it only uses 590 joules and never more than 1190 joules. How does that stop and absorb surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules? ‘Near zero’ protection. Just enough above zero so that it can hype 100% protection subjectively in sales brochures. Hearsay is recommending protection.

No, 1780 joules means 1780 joules. Compare that to a common surge protector, which is only rated at 480:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882303046&cm_re=surge_protector-_-82-303-046-_-Product

NOTHING will protect against hundreds of thousands of joules, and the only way you get exposed to that much is by being directly hit by the lighting bolt.


Why does it not list protection from each type of surge? Because it does not claim to protect from any typically destructive surge.

Yes, it does claim to protect from any surge; that is what the whole "it breaks, we replace it" part is about.


And because it does not have that always required, dedicated, and short connection to single point earth ground. The protection is obviously mythical. As demonstrated by specifications not provided. And even by joules numbers that say near zero protection.

What are you talking about? Of course it has a ground pin, but you don't even need one. The ground pin is to protect HUMANS from being electrocuted if you touch the chassis. To protect the EQUIPMENT you only have to shunt current between hot and common to keep the voltage between those two points from spiking.

westom1
February 23rd, 2011, 04:23 AM
No, 1780 joules means 1780 joules. Compare that to a common surge protector, which is only rated at 480: The most naive among us just know. Then make claims. While ignoring the numbers. 480 joules or 1780 joules. It is still near zero protection. Even the numeric specs in his cited APC do not claim effective protection. But he does not need no stinkin' numbers. He knows. That proves it.

Telco COs all over the world suffer direct lightning strikes with no damage. Typically suffer 100 surges with earth thunderstorm. Routinely make hundreds of thousands of joules irrelevant. But they only use what has been proven for over 100 years. And an employee might even get fired for installing that APC protector. Telcos (unlike those who ignore numbers) learned who real protection is installed.

Well the computer motherboard also has ground. According to psusi, we can earth a protector to the computers ground plane. And even that provides protection.

Nonsense. Even the National Electrical code defines safety ground as completely different from earth ground. But a protector has a ground pin. Therefore all grounds must be same? Amazing how many are experts because safety ground and earth ground both contain the word ground. Therefore they must be same.

Yes, this is not about surge protection. This is about why so many without first learning will instead 'know'. It is called a surge protector. The manufacturer does not even claim protection in its numeric specs. But protector and protection sound alike. So it must do protection.

Please. Learn some basic electrical concepts before posting. 480 joules or 1780 joules are both near zero. Neither device lists protection from surges in their numeric specs. And do not have to. Protector and protection sound alike. A profit center will remain obscenely profitable.

psusi
February 23rd, 2011, 03:52 PM
Seriously, are you high? I thought you were making fun of yourself at first. You just KNOW.

I did not say anything about COULD be grounded, I said the chassis IS grounded ( via the third pin ), and I specifically said that does NOT provide any protection for the equipment, but is instead to protect people. YOU are the one who has been saying that it is some sort of protection against surges for the equipment, and now you are saying it is nonsense. Make up your mind.

Enough hand waving about magical telco equipment that can be hit directly with lightning and not blow up. Show a piece of equipment or better yet, a circuit design that is rated to handle 100kJ surge.


480 joules or 1780 joules are both near zero. Neither device lists protection from surges in their numeric specs.

What do you think those numbers are? That IS the listed protection from surges.