What is the proper way to pronounce "Celtic"?

[forrestcupp]

This thread is to discuss anything about the Celts, but mainly the proper pronunciation of "Celtic".

[Spr0k3t]

If you are basketball fan, it's with an s sound. For all other purposes, the hard k sound. I never pronounce it with an s sound.

[Paqman]

The people are Keltic, the football team is Seltic.

IIRC the word comes from the Greek "Keltoi", meaning "foreigners". So pronouncing it with a hard C would be more correct IMO. However, a lot of words of this vintage are mispronounced in common usage, for example the name Julius Caesar would have been pronounced Iulius Kaiser, as the Romans didn't use J or the soft C. And the shoes called Nikes should ideally be pronounced nee-kay since they get their name from Athena Nike. So even the two competing common pronunciations are technically wrong!

[cascade9]

Depends..in which language? LOL

In english, both are acceptable.

'K' is the Greek pronunciation. 'S' is the French pronunciation. Since 'celtic' come to english from French and Latin, 'S' is probably technically more correct...for english anyway. (BTW, the vast majority of enlish words starting with 'ce' are pronunced 'se', eg cement, etc)

Edit, @ Paqman- 'Keltoi' can mean that, but AFAIK it can also mean 'stanger' or 'hidden people'. I'm not a scholar of clasical greek though.

[fatality_uk]

With my origins in a highland clan and having both a Tartan and a Kilt of my own, I can say with great authority that it's "Keltic". Try saying your a "selt" at the Highland games :D

[cascade9]

Now I'm wondering if I should repost my mini-not-exactly-a-rant post from that 'other' celtic thread and lay myself open to even more 'celts' having a go at my logic?

Or should I let this go toa few more pages untill I post it. That why, just when the thread is heading for a natural death, it can be kept alive with bickering over ancient history.

[Johnsie]

It depends on the context... When talking about music or the Celtic people then it's Keltic...

When you're talking about the Scottish football team the it's Seltic.

When you're talking about the American sports team then it's The Seltics.

[Paqman]

Edit, @ Paqman- 'Keltoi' can mean that, but AFAIK it can also mean 'stanger' or 'hidden people'. I'm not a scholar of clasical greek though.

It probably meant all of the above. It was the word Greek colonies used for "them over there" when talking about the non-Greek folks to their north.

[ki4jgt]

It depends on the context... When talking about music or the Celtic people then it's Keltic...

When you're talking about the Scottish football team the it's Seltic.

When you're talking about the American sports team then it's The Seltics.

+ 1 I call them kelts when I'm talking about the people "celts"

[cascade9]

It probably meant all of the above. It was the word Greek colonies used for "them over there" when talking about the non-Greek folks to their north.

The Celts were a long way north of the Greeks, and even further to the west. Just to the north, and in parts of asia minor (modern Turkey) would be the Thracians/Dacians, north-west the Illyrians, and north-east the Scythians, Sarmartians, etc.

One of the reasons I've seen for 'Keltoi' is that the Celts would attack from ambush, which the Greeks though was unsporting. Again, I'm not a classical Greek scholar, so I'm just reporting what I've read. ;)

[mips]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pronunciation_of_Celtic#Pronunciation

Pronunciation
The initial consonant of the English words Celt and Celtic can be realised either as /k/ or /s/ (that is, either hard or soft ‹c›), both variants being recognized as "correct" in prescriptive usage by modern dictionaries.

The English word originates in the 17th century, taken from the Celtæ of classical Latin. Until the mid 19th century, the sole pronunciation in English was /selt/ in keeping of the treatment of the letter ‹c› inherited by Middle English from Old French and Late Latin. Beginning in the mid 19th century, Celtic revivalist and nationalist publications advocated imitating the pronunciation of classical Latin in the time of Julius Caesar, when Latin Celtæ was pronounced /keltai/. An early example of this is a short article in a November 1857 issue of 'The Celt', a publication of the Irish Celtic Union.

"Of all the nations that have hitherto lived on the face of the earth, the English have the worst mode of pronouncing learned languages. This is admitted by the whole human race [...] This poor meagre sordid language resembles nothing so much as the hissing of serpents or geese. [...] The distinction which English writers are too stupid to notice, but which the Irish Grammarians are perpetually talking of, the distinction between broad and narrow vowels—governs the English language. [...] If we follow the unwritten law of the English we shall pronounce (Celt) Selt but Cæsar would pronounce it, Kaylt. Thus the reader may take which pronunciation he pleases. He may follow the rule of the Latin or the rule of the English language, and in either case be right."

A guide to English pronunciation for Welsh speakers published in 1861 gives the alternative pronunciations "sel´tik, kel´tik" for the adjective Celtic.

The pronunciation with /s/ remained standard throughout the 19th to early 20th century, but the variant with /k/ seems to have gained ground during the later 20th century, especially among "students of Celtic culture".[13] On the other hand, the /s/ pronunciation remains the most recognised form when it occurs in the names of sports teams, most notably Celtic Football Club and the Boston Celtics basketball team.

The corresponding words in French are pronounced with /s/, and English Celtic was formed in imitation of French celtique. The corresponding German terms are Kelten and keltisch, not only pronounced as /k/ but even spelled with ‹k›. This is a regular German treatment of names in Greek kappa, also observed in cases such Cimbri, Cimmerians, Cambyses, etc.[14] These spellings with ‹k› arise in the later 18th century. From the 16th to the early 18th century, the prevalent spelling in German was celtisch.

The celt, a stone tool, has a completely separate etymology from Celt and Celtic. In English its sole pronunciation is /ˈsɛlt/.

Both are used and seem acceptable. Keltic however seems to be more true to the original pronunciation back in the day.

I myself have always used Keltic, no idea why though.

[Grenage]

Nice information here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pronunciation_of_Celtic#Pronunciation)

I usually pronounce it with a 'k', probably because other people tend to pronounce it with a 'k'.

[BbUiDgZ]

Nice information here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pronunciation_of_Celtic#Pronunciation)

I usually pronounce it with a 'k', probably because other people tend to pronounce it with a 'k'.
being a scotman from glasgow and a Celtic fc supporter I can say that if your talking about the football team then its "Seltic" if not then "Keltic"

[Grenage]

being a scotman from glasgow and a Celtic fc supporter I can say that if your talking about the football team then its "Seltic" if not then "Keltic"

I don't talk much about football; plus, I'm a southern scally! ;)

[Dragonbite]

I pronounce it "Keltic", but then again I'm of Slovak (and English) descent so I don't know if I'm much to go by.

[clanky]

being a scotman from glasgow and a Celtic fc supporter I can say that if your talking about the football team then its "Seltic" if not then "Keltic"

This, when used as an adjective to describe celtic people it is with a hard k and the people are kelts.

When used to desribe either Celtic Football (soccer) Club in Glasgow or the Boston Celtics basketball team it is with a soft c, just to confuse the issue a little more, fans of Celtic FC are sometimes known as selts whereas fan of ragers FC are known as ****s :)

[BbUiDgZ]

fan of ragers FC are known as ****s :)
clanky, I like you :D

[JDShu]

I agreed that the team in Boston is the Seltics, but I usually say Keltics in any other context.

[koenn]

The Celts were a long way north of the Greeks, and even further to the west. Just to the north, and in parts of asia minor (modern Turkey) would be the Thracians/Dacians, north-west the Illyrians, and north-east the Scythians, Sarmartians, etc.

The Celtic culture was pretty widespread at some points in time :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Celts_in_Europe.png
and there where greek colonies al along the mediterranean.
To Greek colonies on the southern coast of France, there would've been Celts quite near, to the north.

[fil_lif]

as mentioned Celtic pronounced with a "k" refers to a lineage of people, the Celts; Celtic pronounced with a "c" refers to the Scottish footie team

[RATM_Owns]

"Kell-tick."

On a side note, Celtic Frost ftw.

[bouncingwilf]

Historically Seltic, now predominately keltic - as other have commented, keltae were "people of the forest" in Greek (or so I was lead to believe by my latin tutor some 55 years ago).

I generally follow local fashion in this one so as not to upset the natives who get very heated about the pronunciation although 30 or 40 years ago it didn't matter.

I will however leave you all with 2 thoughts;

A Kelt is a salmon ( and so called in celtic countries) that has spawned but is still in the river - generally Atlantic salmon (or at least some of them) drop back down to the sea in spring.

The most famous book in Ireland is the book of Kells.

Either way I'm kertainly not going to stick my neck out!

Bouncingwilf

[doorknob60]

Seltic, as in the "Boston Celtics", the way everybody says it in the NBA. That's where I first and most commonly hear the word, so that's how I always say it.

[forrestcupp]

Depends..in which language? LOL

In english, both are acceptable.

'K' is the Greek pronunciation. 'S' is the French pronunciation. Since 'celtic' come to english from French and Latin, 'S' is probably technically more correct...for english anyway. (BTW, the vast majority of enlish words starting with 'ce' are pronunced 'se', eg cement, etc)
This is the argument that I've heard for pronouncing it "Seltic". The argument is that it doesn't matter what the original pronunciation is, the English word is properly pronounced with a soft "C". I don't know if I go along with that or not. It seems popular to use a hard 'c' now.

But if "Keltic" is the obvious, uncontested pronunciation, then why are the football and basketball teams pronounced with a soft 'c'?

[rob22941]

Depends if you're talking about Ireland or Boston.

[mips]

Depends if you're talking about Ireland or Boston.

When talking about European people who cares about a US sports team or even a EU sports team. We all know it's Keltic.

[Gremlinzzz]

Here it is loud and clear in proper Irish
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUbnA3hzPV0

[MisterGaribaldi]

No, no... you folks have it all wrong.

Everyone knows it's pronounced "Throat-Warbler Mangrove (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyQvjKqXA0Y)".

[cascade9]

The Celtic culture was pretty widespread at some points in time :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Celts_in_Europe.png
and there where greek colonies al along the mediterranean.
To Greek colonies on the southern coast of France, there would've been Celts quite near, to the north.

Link to the full wikipedia page where that map is taken from-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts

So many thing can be said about that map....Its a bit of a joke really. Yellow= Hallstatt/La Tene. Its not even know for sure what langauge group this culture was from from, probably proto-celtic. The funny thing is that if you actually look into it, the areas that are labeled "the 6 celtic nations" either never fell under La Tene infulence (and this term alone is misleading), or did so VERY late (100 B.C.E. or so).

As for the 'Greeks' in southern France, yes, they would have been in fairly close to the 'Celts'. Calling them Greek is taking a very black and white approach though, the greeks in southern france were Phocaeans, a mixture of Greek and Phoenician. Since Phocaea fought on the side of the greeks, they count as 'Greek' but this is ignoring the Phoenicians input.


This is the argument that I've heard for pronouncing it "Seltic". The argument is that it doesn't matter what the original pronunciation is, the English word is properly pronounced with a soft "C". I don't know if I go along with that or not. It seems popular to use a hard 'c' now.

But if "Keltic" is the obvious, uncontested pronunciation, then why are the football and basketball teams pronounced with a soft 'c'?

There is no original pronunciation IMO.

'Celt' is from the Galli (Gaulic), who called themsleves 'Celtae' (from Ceasar, "The Gaulic Wars"). Thats the latin version, greek is 'Keltoi'....probably BOTH are wrong, and the actual Galli could only be approximated in latin and greek. Linguistic differences made the latin and greek rendering differenet.

Or possibly they never called themselves 'celtae' at all, and Ceasar used the term for historical and propaganda reasons.

To lump all the tribal groups who PROBABLY spoke proto-celtic together on some tenuous langage connections isnt logical. Its done mainly because of the romticisation of the very term 'Celt'.

I find the who idea of Scots, Irish and Manx (and for that matter, Brythonic speakers as well like the Welsh, Beton and Cornish) calling themselves 'Celtic' is like England, Iceland, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Germany, Holland etc calling themselves 'Burgundians'.

[uRock]

With my origins in a highland clan and having both a Tartan and a Kilt of my own, I can say with great authority that it's "Keltic". Try saying your a "selt" at the Highland games :D
Lol, I perform at the Renaissance Festival every year and I am either wearing my kilt or dressed as a silent monk, depending on the aftermath of the previous night's party.

[bouncingwilf]

Lol, I perform at the Renaissance Festival every year and I am either wearing my kilt or dressed as a silent monk, depending on the aftermath of the previous night's party.

Glaswegian by birth myself but I think you should remember , celtic is the description applied to the group of people by others, so celts would not necessarily pronouce it as originally used.

Bouncingwilf