Heavy Metal vs Rock vs Deathcore

[waloshin]

Heavy Metal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_music) vs Rock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_music) vs Deathcore (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deathcore)?

What do you prefer and why?

[Spice Weasel]

There are good + terrible artists in each, so none of the above. It's stupid to fit music in to categories.

[NMFTM]

I'm not 100% sure what the difference between deathcore and certain types of metalcore is. A lot of these ___core genres tend to overlap, sometimes making it hard to determine what exactly a song is.

From what I understand, the defining characteristic of metalcore are breakdowns with clean vocals. But Walls of Jericho (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walls_of_Jericho_%28band%29) has metalcore listed as the genre for all their albums despite them rarely making use of breakdowns. Would you consider this song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSadcuwiPbU) to be deathcore?

Note: I linked to the (lame) censored version of the song. The uncensored version can be easily found.

[waloshin]

I'm not 100% sure what the difference between deathcore and certain types of metalcore is. A lot of these ___core genres tend to overlap, sometimes making it hard to determine what exactly a song is.

From what I understand, the defining characteristic of metalcore are breakdowns with clean vocals. But Walls of Jericho (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walls_of_Jericho_%28band%29) has metalcore listed as the genre for all their albums despite them rarely making use of breakdowns. Would you consider this song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kynUSL8fr_4) to be deathcore?

I would say no. That sound's like screamo to me.

Deathcore sample video: (http://www.youtube.com/user/CrazyInsomniacDSPS#p/c/DB7330D7A8A5C4CB/8/1kedHv4F118)

[NMFTM]

I would say no.
So, any kind of a breakdown or break in the constant barrage of screaming automatically demotes a given song to the status of metalcore?

[waloshin]

So, any kind of a breakdown or break in the constant barrage of screaming automatically demotes a given song to the status of metalcore?

So if I read this right your saying that any song that doesn't have screaming in it makes it metalcore?

[Evil-Ernie]

I see it as degrees of severity, but of course everyones taste is different so what is 'severe' will change froom person to person.

Rock to me is the generic more milder guitar based music that is more acceptable to 'pop' audiences, out of this comes the noiser and more subjective Heavy Metal which I see as a more traditional genre that at a point when that pop audience considers 'Rock' too much for them.

Deathcore is a different kettle of fish as it is a subgenre of Heavy metal where as a Deathcore band may be considedered to be in the 'Heavy Metal' group of genres a Heavy Metal fan doesnt automatically make you a Deathcore fan, *cores seem to the logical conclution of other metal subgenres (i.e. Death Metal) going to their extreme.

Personally I dont mind Deathcore, I prefer Converge but I also have some Hatebreed in the collection. I just dont get the whole straight-edge thing at all.

[ikt]

I think it varies person to person, for example I hate pop and rap music but I will make exceptions, for example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09XQLmBNrCo

Is a rap song I can actually listen to and:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtsGurl8rn8

is a pop song I can listen to, so even someone who hates rap and pop as much as I do can't help but blur the lines just a tad :(

[NMFTM]

So if I read this right your saying that any song that doesn't have screaming in it makes it metalcore?
No, I don't think it's possible to have metalcore without screaming. What I meant was. Lets say you have a metalcore song. Since metalcore is screaming + breakdowns with clear vocals during the breakdown period. If you rewrote the song and took out all the breakdowns, would that song then become hardcore, deathcore, or death metal? Or vice versa, would a hardcore/deathcore/death metal song become a metalcore song if you rewrote it to include breakdowns?

[Hur Dur]

There are good + terrible artists in each, so none of the above. It's stupid to fit music in to categories.
Pretty much this.

The genre that has the most bands I like would probably be Heavy Metal, or Death Metal, though.

[Simian Man]

I think it's silly to break down the genres in that much detail. For the most part, any band worth listening to can't be pigeonholed to such an extent.

[fil_lif]

don't think you can really label a band to one genre, goes against the ethos of rock anyhow. try allmusic.com they have extensive definitions of genres and for specific bands they list every genre they could possibly be tagged with. I prefer just to say I like anything with real instruments in it

[RATM_Owns]

I prefer just death metal, kthx.
Unless we mean actual death metal (i.e., Morbid Angel) mixed with actual hardcore (i.e., Blood for Blood) bands like The Red Chord and Animosity.

Really, I can't stand bands like Bring Me the Horizon, Suicide Silence, and other mainstream deathcore bands. The only deathcore bands I can really say I like would be All Shall Perish, Veil of Maya, new Carnifex, some Despised Icon, and not many others.

I prefer my metal to be more than "chug chug bree chug miccup chug chug chug chug breakdown chug bree bree breeee."

[Dixon Bainbridge]

Do people really give a toss about what subsubsubgenre something is?

There are two types of music in the world:

Music that makes me go 'HELL YEAH"
Music that doesn't

Genre/style - irrelevant.

Makes things nice and easy.

[Aero_Zeppelin]

Deathcore?wtf? IMO all the new subgenres of metal are just re-creating something Sabbath,Zeppelin etc have already done decades ago.It may be faster or more "hardcore" but its already been done before.I think its it makes no sense to pigeonhole a certain band to a specific subgenre as the instances of overlap are just humungous.

[VorpalBunny]

Do people really give a toss about what subsubsubgenre something is?

There are two types of music in the world:

Music that makes me go 'HELL YEAH"
Music that doesn't

Genre/style - irrelevant.

Makes things nice and easy.

This.

It's the only way I can explain to myself how I can like Miles Davis, Debussy, A Tribe Called Quest, Aphex Twin, Yes, and Lady Gaga. :D

[NMFTM]

Really, I can't stand bands like Bring Me the Horizon...and other mainstream deathcore bands.
Only their first album (Count Your Blessings) was deathcore. Suicide Season was much more melodic and mixed in elements of "emocore" and an overall a much softer/gentler sound. While TEAHBMISITIAHLKIAS is different from Suicide Season and has songs where you can definably hear a hardcore influence. I can't say I'm as much of a fan of the electronic/autotuned chorus in their last album as I would have if they just had a regular chorus.

I'm not saying your music tastes are wrong. Just that BMTH's music covers a lot of ground and defiantly aren't just a deathcore group.

[mkendall]

Here is my response to what I assume the message of these deathcore/metalcore/laryngitiscore/whatevercore songs, or at least what I think their message is. (Can there be a message when there are no discernible lyrics?)

Link to Message Response (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4fWN6VvgKQ&feature=related)

Here is my response to what I understand "breakdowns" to be.

Link to Breakdown Response (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzw60tvoRIc)

And if any of those drummers are capable of even half the awesomeness on display in this song, linky (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpeADt5cHA0), (especially the smokestack lightning at 6:50) I would be willing to reconsider my complete lack of respect for whatever it is these kids are trying to accomplish.

[Khakilang]

I just listen what I is consider good and stick to those I like. Although I start listening to heavy metal in my early age. But to me its boils down to good music.

[Aero_Zeppelin]

Here is my response to what I assume the message of these deathcore/metalcore/laryngitiscore/whatevercore songs, or at least what I think their message is. (Can there be a message when there are no discernible lyrics?)

Link to Message Response (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4fWN6VvgKQ&feature=related)

Here is my response to what I understand "breakdowns" to be.

Link to Breakdown Response (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzw60tvoRIc)

And if any of those drummers are capable of even half the awesomeness on display in this song, linky (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpeADt5cHA0), (especially the smokestack lightning at 6:50) I would be willing to reconsider my complete lack of respect for whatever it is these kids are trying to accomplish.

+1 =D> I've just invented a new subgenre..I fart on the mic instead of singing..think i'l call it "fartcore".:D

[Evil-Ernie]

think i'l call it "fartcore".:D

Id call it 'Arsecore' LOL!

[mkendall]

+1 =D> I've just invented a new subgenre..I fart on the mic instead of singing..think i'l call it "fartcore".:D

I think GG Allin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GG_Allin) may have beaten you to it. Never saw him myself, but I had a friend describe a concert of GG's he had attended.

[Grenage]

I think there might actually be more genres than songs; clearly some people have too much time on their hands.

[Random_Dude]

There are good + terrible artists in each, so none of the above. It's stupid to fit music in to categories.

I wouldn't say it's stupid to fit music into categories, humans have a natural tendency to organize everything in boxes in their heads.
But I agree with the first part, there are good and bad artists in every genre, and even "good" and "bad" depends on your taste, it's not an absolute measure.

As for the topic itself, I'm not a fan of Deathcore. So that leaves me with Heavy Metal and Rock. Which is an unfair comparison, since you are comparing a subgenre of metal with a much broader genre (Rock). So in this case I would go with Rock, there is probably more variety. :)

Cheers :cool:

[luceerose]

Ummm...
Heavy Metal vs Death Metal vs Progressive Metal vs Operatic Metal vs Symphonic Metal vs Doom Metal vs Goth Metal vs....
...
...
Sorry about all that Metal. I'm a guitarist.

Rock pretty much = Pop (insert emoticon to represent Hurling of Chunks)
And I feel that anyone who coins a phrase with the word 'core' in it, is a dead-set wannabe.

[Aquix]

I think it's funny how we all dislike genres but we all use them to explain music.

[Evil-Ernie]

I think it's funny how we all dislike genres but we all use them to explain music.

I quite like them as a DJ because it helps me describe music or for people to communicate what type of music they want.

[Sylos]

And if any of those drummers are capable of even half the awesomeness on display in this song, linky (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpeADt5cHA0), (especially the smokestack lightning at 6:50) I would be willing to reconsider my complete lack of respect for whatever it is these kids are trying to accomplish.


Gotta say that you are being churlish if you are refusing to give respect to the sub-genre metal drummers. There are some truly awesome drummers out there (dont know too much about the deathcore stuff - more of a black metal kinda guy) and the skill and fitness it take to thump out a set like that is impressive.

We all know that some of the pioneering bands like Zep and sabbath were truly amazing bands but its a delusion to suggest that the modern musicians are not equal or better in mnay cases when judged purely on complexity and technical ability.

As for the original question - not sure about the whole deathcore thing - Im a bit old these days and out of touch with the music scene - I like my death metal and my grindcore and my black metal. I suppose that puts me at the extreme end of the scale rather than the rock or straight heavy metal end. Of course thats when Im not listening to ICP, Nancy Sinatra, Fats Dominoe, Blodwyn Pig...........

[Evil-Ernie]

Gotta say that you are being churlish if you are refusing to give respect to the sub-genre metal drummers. There are some truly awesome drummers out there (dont know too much about the deathcore stuff - more of a black metal kinda guy) and the skill and fitness it take to thump out a set like that is impressive.



I agree. In my new band I play drums which is not my normal instrument (Im a guitar/bass guy) and drumming is physically hard, when you look at double-kick modern metal drumming it increases that skill and physicality to the next level.

After sessions drumming I am a sweaty, aching wreck. All my joints hurt and I feel like Ive run a marathon, I dont get that from playing my guitar! LOL

[Sylos]

I agree. In my new band I play drums which is not my normal instrument (Im a guitar/bass guy) and drumming is physically hard, when you look at double-kick modern metal drumming it increases that skill and physicality to the next level.

After sessions drumming I am a sweaty, aching wreck. All my joints hurt and I feel like Ive run a marathon, I dont get that from playing my guitar! LOL

I too used to drum (not my first instrument) and I found double kick work drained me very rapidly. Thankfully I was in a Doom band (theres a genre to try and differentiate) so I was only required to play slowly for the majority of songs. When we tried a cover of Raining Blood I fell apart and that isnt a tough song by extreme metal standards.

For me watching the likes of Hellhammer (Mayhem) and Nick Barker (Dimmu/Cradle) is amazing. The way they can play make something so intense seem almost effortless just adds to the epic experience of the live show.

[Evil-Ernie]

I too used to drum (not my first instrument) and I found double kick work drained me very rapidly.

I play in a stoner/prog metal band so I dont need to use a double (yet!). I have tried one but I found the same problem with fatigue, also I like lots of hi-hat work so I prefer to keep my left foot on the hat pedal.



Thankfully I was in a Doom band (theres a genre to try and differentiate) so I was only required to play slowly for the majority of songs. When we tried a cover of Raining Blood I fell apart and that isnt a tough song by extreme metal standards.


I like a bit of doom, Paradise Lost and Katatonia do it for me from that genre.
Ouch Slayer songs are mental! :P

[Grenage]

Ouch Slayer songs are mental! :P

But damn good. :)

[Aero_Zeppelin]

We all know that some of the pioneering bands like Zep and sabbath were truly amazing bands but its a delusion to suggest that the modern musicians are not equal or better in mnay cases when judged purely on complexity and technical ability.

.

If you really judge drummers on complexity and technicality,No one can beat Bonzo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XnQ5kKmOro..there are a lot of good modern metal drummers out there,But better than Bonzo (zep) or Moon (the who) or peart (rush)??No way man.:P

[cgolson84]

If you really judge drummers on complexity and technicality,No one can beat Bonzo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XnQ5kKmOro..there are a lot of good modern metal drummers out there,But better than Bonzo (zep) or Moon (the who) or peart (rush)??No way man.:P

I agree. The best was and still is Peart, Bonham and Moon. I MIGHT, i stress might, put Portnoy from Dream Theater in there with them.

[NMFTM]

I can't believe how civil this discussion is. If you go to any metal song on Youtube and read the comments section, it's a giant flame war. I'd even go as far as to say that 4Chan's /b area is often times more civil. Not only that, but somehow Justin Bieber always get dragged into the discussion.

[Sylos]

If you really judge drummers on complexity and technicality,No one can beat Bonzo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XnQ5kKmOro..there are a lot of good modern metal drummers out there,But better than Bonzo (zep) or Moon (the who) or peart (rush)??No way man.:P

I actually disagree (cue the aforementioned flame). I've just watched the Moby **** solo and it is pretty impressive - I'll damn sure never be that good. But then Im a crap drummer and therefore a crappy yard stick - I reckon there are a lot of drummers that could play that - 2 of the drummers I have previously played with in pub bands have been approaching that level.

Try this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BS6JijwA61E

or if you want to see the true solo master try Cryptopsy's flo Mounier:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGLVjp65v_E

The honest truth is that in general people prefer drummers from their favourite bands and genres - hence the usual flame wars mentioned in other posts. In all probability there is a jazz drummer somewhere that would miturate on both our lists of class drummers.

EDIT: Apparently Ubuntu doesnt like Herman Melville novels. LMAO!

[mkendall]

Gotta say that you are being churlish if you are refusing to give respect to the sub-genre metal drummers. There are some truly awesome drummers out there (dont know too much about the deathcore stuff - more of a black metal kinda guy) and the skill and fitness it take to thump out a set like that is impressive.

Churlish? Sure, I'll cop to being churlish. I'll even admit to being the basest of boors so long as you admit that something being physically difficult doesn't actually make it good.

[Sylos]

Churlish? Sure, I'll cop to being churlish. I'll even admit to being the basest of boors so long as you admit that something being physically difficult doesn't actually make it good.

Ok! - Nowhere in my posts did I say complex=good!

I respect complexity - things that are difficult to do should be respected because the people that do those things obviously have talent!. When it comes to being good - in a musical context - what you think is "good" is entirely based on opinion - and opinion is no basis for an argument as opinion will ALWAYS be subjective.

I would rather listen to Hellhammer than Bonham because I prefer the patterbs and style that he uses in the context of the music he is preforming - But that is my opinion! What I have read in some of the previous posts sounds as follows:

"I like the music of a previous generation! I therefore believe that the musicians of this era and the style they play to be superior to any other form. I refuse to accept that any other muscians playing a different style could have an equal or greater talent!"

That to me is wrong! The natural progression would be towards greater complexity as experience and development of techniques continues and is taught down the line of musicians - and that is if you ignore technology which has brought is more responsive drum skins and other add ons like triggers.

In my previous post I said that some drummers I had played with could imitate the Bonham solo - but that doesnt mean they are as good as Bonham - I am a guitarist - I can play stairway - but am I as good as Jimmy Page - NO! - the fact is playing a pattern or lick requires skill BUT to be an awesome musician requires more! I can play a lot of great tunes but can I write one? Probabbly not (I try but hey Im look a million other musicians who will never see anything in the way of sucssess) Great music is a symbiosis of skill and soul - That cannot be emulated!

Due to my tastes I would say the drummers I prefer are best - and objectively I would say they are the technical eqauls (if not betters) that you have mentioned) but that has a lot to do with opinion.

Answer me this: Do you honestly believe that drumming skill will never better the idols you revere?

[mkendall]

Answer me this: Do you honestly believe that drumming skill will never better the idols you revere?

I'm beginning to doubt it. The purist technical drum work I've ever witnessed was a five minute Buddy Rich solo where he had a syncopated rhythm going using the entire trap set during which he maintained a drum roll on the snare that never broke. Truly amazing.

The latest drummer that makes me regret not sticking with music -- and keep in mind that I haven't paid much attention to current music in the last 15 years; I haven't heard much that I either haven't heard before (and yes, done better) or can bear to listen to -- is Dave Grohl of Nirvana. No, he isn't the most technically proficient drummer, but his drum work was a perfect mesh to the music. When he hit the ride cymbal it was because it was the perfect moment to hit it...


Great music is a symbiosis of skill and soul - That cannot be emulated!

Here we come to agreement. Our disagreement is that this deathcore/metalcore/etc. stuff contains any soul. Me? I'd rather go back in time to listen to Pantera (and I don't particularly like Pantera) than any of the offerings today because I haven't heard anything that I could call an improvement over Pantera.

Now, Primus... There was a band you could sink your teeth into. :P

[Timmer1240]

I Like Rock classic rock and heavy metal but deathcore thats way to dark for me!

[Sylos]

Here we come to agreement. Our disagreement is that this deathcore/metalcore/etc. stuff contains any soul. Me? I'd rather go back in time to listen to Pantera (and I don't particularly like Pantera) than any of the offerings today because I haven't heard anything that I could call an improvement over Pantera.

Now, Primus... There was a band you could sink your teeth into. :P

Im not sure if Im really saying the new Deathcore stuff is all that - I couldnt if I tried really as Im not into the scene either these days. Im still listening to grindcore from up to 10 years ago! I would certainly say that some of the stuff I listen to has soul but all styles suffer from generic bands trotting out tired and uninteresting facsimiles. I reserve judgement on Deathcore until I have listened to a sample (and first worked out exactly what it is).

Cant fault you on the Primus - cant beat a can of pork soda!

[alexan]

Dunno... how is cataloged this remix (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xE0UA8RREX4)?

[kn0w-b1nary]

I tend to like deathcore because of the heavyness and growling screams,
just listen Whitechapel, This is Exile.

Not that I don't like Metal, I like Disturbed (Nu Metal).

[Evil-Ernie]

cant fault you on the primus - cant beat a can of pork soda!

+1

[nothingspecial]

Only "TRUE METAL OF STEEL" is released under the creative commons license.

NanowaR

http://www.nanowar.it/home.html

Nanowar are the only true band of true metal of musical steel.

Hail to the steel of true metal of steel!

[MonolithImmortal]

Being that were talking about heavy music, can I recommend Sikth (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7BoKOscMrY)?

Not really a big fan of Deathcore. I used to play in a band with a guy who was big into the whole deathcore scene, and honestly it all kind of sounded the same.
To be fair, at the same time I had a Black metal side project, corpse paint and all.

[ronnielsen1]

I love different kinds of music from Gretchen Wilson, Kid Rock,new music, the old 70's classics, disco, some rap, old sound of music film songs. If they're good I like them. However, when I had an amplifier added to my wifes car I instructed them to NOT turn the base control all of the way up. I think that's idiotic. You really have to produce seismic waves?

[Dobbie03]

I don't really listen to many bands that fall under any of the genres initially mentioned. I personally prefer Black and Death Metal. There are only a few Deathcore bands I can really be bothered with, Despised Icon being one.

[themarker0]

Metal/Hard Rock are really good. Like Type O, and Trivium. Then i add some Indie (New age thrice, manchester Orchastra)

And then i can call it a day.