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nalmeth
April 23rd, 2006, 10:53 PM
I was at my folks house last weekend, and I remember finding a folder called DRM.
Does Windows XP already have DRM features in it? Or was this from a 3rd party application? I know they have some Sony programs installed :roll:
For what their needs are with their computer, I don't like seeing them getting mixed up with this DRM stuff.
To what extend is Windows already using or allowing DRM technologies?

NeghVar
April 23rd, 2006, 11:09 PM
DRM chips are already on Mobos, XP can't use them unless they put out an update but I believe DRM would require a serious rerite of the OS. It is most likely third party, although I seriously question how stupid the company would be to call the folder DRM.

Vista is capable of using the DRM chips being put on Mobos though, so if you want to actually own the things you buy you need to avoid MS. The fate of DRM in Linux is still up in the air with Linux supporting it and Stallman making it illegal under the GPL V3. Although Linus supports a different from of DRM.

Kernel Sanders
April 23rd, 2006, 11:18 PM
I was at my folks house last weekend, and I remember finding a folder called DRM.
Does Windows XP already have DRM features in it? Or was this from a 3rd party application? I know they have some Sony programs installed :roll:
For what their needs are with their computer, I don't like seeing them getting mixed up with this DRM stuff.
To what extend is Windows already using or allowing DRM technologies?

I love my Windows XP Pro SP2 tbh :mrgreen:

Apart from Windows Product Activation there is nothing like that in there, and tbh, I wouldnt use it if there was, must be some kind of 3rd party app IMHO.

John :)

nalmeth
April 23rd, 2006, 11:19 PM
Yes, its a very sensitive issue, and needs to be worked out in the right way. Get a lot more people involved in the discussion.
I don't think it's too suprising that there's a DRM folder, MS doesn't need to hide the fact they want to own your data. Although it's likely a Sony implementation. They're not much different.
Don't think I'm banking any cash to save up for Vista ;)

It's really Draconian Restrictions Management. I think before it becomes really serious, and widely used, a lot of regular users are going to jump to linux in some form, but think of all the people who are going to be locked in for good by these technologies.
MS is aligned with the RIAA and the Film industry, and this nonsense is going to create a huge rift in the use of technology.

My family has very basic computer needs, and they're in danger of being taken advantage of by the technology they've become dependent on. I'm determined to get them on linux in one way or another.
Being such casual users though, they don't have very strong feelings about what their rights are.
It's bad news all around :(

Kernel Sanders
April 23rd, 2006, 11:26 PM
Yes, its a very sensitive issue, and needs to be worked out in the right way. Get a lot more people involved in the discussion.
I don't think it's too suprising that there's a DRM folder, MS doesn't need to hide the fact they want to own your data. Although it's likely a Sony implementation. They're not much different.
Don't think I'm banking any cash to save up for Vista ;)

It's really Draconian Restrictions Management. I think before it becomes really serious, and widely used, a lot of regular users are going to jump to linux in some form, but think of all the people who are going to be locked in for good by these technologies.
MS is aligned with the RIAA and the Film industry, and this nonsense is going to create a huge rift in the use of technology.

My family has very basic computer needs, and they're in danger of being taken advantage of by the technology they've become dependent on. I'm determined to get them on linux in one way or another.
Being such casual users though, they don't have very strong feelings about what their rights are.
It's bad news all around :(


I agree, thats why i'm learning about linux now. :)

Dont get me wrong, I love my Windows XP Pro SP2 to bits, and tbh i'm an expert in its operation. If I can, i'll still be using it in 10 years time. Its certainly the last MS OS i'll ever own, as its the last MS OS that doesnt contain lots of restrictions on how I use my OWN computer.

I will be very sad when my Windows XP Pro becomes too old for me to use for everyday things........ :cry:

John :)

nalmeth
April 23rd, 2006, 11:31 PM
Yes, I've seen you voice your opinion about this before, and have to admire your stance.
Windows XP is still a good product, and can be used quite efficiently, but like the Music and Film industry, MS can't put out a potent, groundbreaking product anymore, and are using this ******** to protect their market and their stockholders.
I know it's just business, but it's attacking the right's of the public to use technology in a free and safe way.

BoyOfDestiny
April 23rd, 2006, 11:48 PM
I was at my folks house last weekend, and I remember finding a folder called DRM.
Does Windows XP already have DRM features in it? Or was this from a 3rd party application? I know they have some Sony programs installed :roll:
For what their needs are with their computer, I don't like seeing them getting mixed up with this DRM stuff.
To what extend is Windows already using or allowing DRM technologies?

It's probably 3rd party. I'm glad I won't have to face Vista (at least not at home if I can help it...) As for allowing DRM technologies, I almost want to say unlimited... I would guess the built in DRM deals with activation and wma and wmv...

Here is info on the Sony one...
http://www.sysinternals.com/blog/2005/10/sony-rootkits-and-digital-rights.html

Dr. C
April 24th, 2006, 12:43 AM
DRM in commercial software and the related issue of vendor lock in is one the primary reasons to move to Ubuntu Linux IMHO. I am speaking as a user of Microsoft Software and operating systems for over 20 years.

As for Microsoft Windows XP Pro it is the best version of Windows provided that it is installed clean without all the junk that comes with many consumer PCs from large manufatures. That means either get an full license, upgrade from a previous version of windows or purchase from a small reseller with a new system as an OEM disk.

The trouble with XP is that is started a new DRM (product activation craze) among commercial software manufactures that in most cases is much worse than product activation in XP

As for the support cycle for XP two years for mainstream and seven years for extended support (security fixes) so we are looking at early 2014 for security support to end assuming no more vista delays.

nalmeth
April 24th, 2006, 12:58 AM
2014 for XP security support to end? Is that what you meant?
You make a good point about the product activation, as it is an early form of "Digital Rights Management", though less severe then we will see soon enough. It is after all not specific to any single function, but enforcing the license agreement. How far it will go will be seen in the near future I think.

I agree XP is still a decent product and will remain most people's OS even when Vista is released, and we get the first major DRM wave.

bilange
April 24th, 2006, 01:04 AM
I *think*, although I dont have a Windows XP installation anymore to confirm this, that this "DRM" folder has something to do with Windows Media Player to get its protected .WMA files working in its DRM scheme.

But I may be wrong, too.

Kernel Sanders
April 24th, 2006, 01:20 AM
2014 for XP security support to end? Is that what you meant?
You make a good point about the product activation, as it is an early form of "Digital Rights Management", though less severe then we will see soon enough. It is after all not specific to any single function, but enforcing the license agreement. How far it will go will be seen in the near future I think.

I agree XP is still a decent product and will remain most people's OS even when Vista is released, and we get the first major DRM wave.

Tbh, i'm worried about the future of propriatory software.

I'm the kind of guy that tries to use FOSS where I can, but doesnt mind paying for something if I believe it to be reasonably priced, and something that will have a certain value to me.

But even I wont go near the software that's being brought out from now on. Its DRM infested junk. The software isnt mine, will call home at will, and put severe restrictions on what I do with MY OWN software/media. And to boot, it costs an arm and a leg.

No.Thank.You.

Thats why i'm learning all about Linux and Ubuntu now, so that in a few years when Windows XP stops supporting hardware or something like that, i'll be ready to switch.

No company that places restrictions on MY software will ever get my money again.

John :)

Golden Warrior
April 24th, 2006, 01:23 AM
DRM is one of those sensitive topics that has driven me nuts to no end. I really hate how the RIAA has made such an issue over it and how MS is helping them.

As for DRM in Vista, I do know that support will be built right in for it, but I also heard that just because it's there it doesn't mean that you'll have to use it (or so the rummors say, I don't know how exactly it'll be set up).

As for DRM in XP, I really don't mind it so much. It's not so integrated that it'll snif out all your songs and videos and verify them so that's good enough for now methinks.


No company that places restrictions on MY software will ever get my money again.

Agreed. After a while, people will catch on and (hopefully) just stop buying it.

imagine
April 24th, 2006, 02:40 AM
The newer versions of the Windows Media Player are full with DRM, but that's about it in Windows XP.

What Vista will add is mainly a fully encrypted path for music and videos from the harddisk/Bluray disc into the (hd-ready) monitor, to prevent the user from capturing the data anywhere. The Vista kernel monitors all applications that are loaded and stops playback if it encounters an attempt to break into the protected path.
But well, you get what you pay for.

Dr. C
April 24th, 2006, 03:37 AM
To clarify my prevoius post. The date of 2014 for security support is for Windows XP Pro (2 years mainstream and 5 years extended) from a Vista release date in 2007. For the home version or media centre version of XP there is no extended phase so that puts it in 2009.

I expect the DRM situation with Vista and other Microsoft applications to get much worse before the market forces a change; however even the current mild DRM with Windows XP has the potential to cause major problems. The trouble with product activation in software is that it creates a single point of failure for millions of computers world wide.

Consider the following scenario: A worm / virus that deactivates Windows XP combined with a DDOS attack on Microsoft's Windows XP activation servers. The potential for worldwide economic damage could potentially be in the billions of dollars.

BoyOfDestiny
April 24th, 2006, 03:56 AM
To clarify my prevoius post. The date of 2014 for security support is for Windows XP Pro (2 years mainstream and 5 years extended) from a Vista release date in 2007. For the home version or media centre version of XP there is no extended phase so that puts it in 2009.

I expect the DRM situation with Vista and other Microsoft applications to get much worse before the market forces a change; however even the current mild DRM with Windows XP has the potential to cause major problems. The trouble with product activation in software is that it creates a single point of failure for millions of computers world wide.

Consider the following scenario: A worm / virus that deactivates Windows XP combined with a DDOS attack on Microsoft's Windows XP activation servers. The potential for worldwide economic damage could potentially be in the billions of dollars.

It would be amusing in this case, since it's likely the pirated/cracked copies (assuming there is some sort of immunity with those...) would be useable. Ironic too I suppose...

Not everything would go down. Fortunately, not all servers are running IIS on windows server, etc... Also, don't some business's have versions that don't require authentication?

Dr. C
April 24th, 2006, 04:23 AM
It would be amusing in this case, since it's likely the pirated/cracked copies (assuming there is some sort of immunity with those...) would be useable. Ironic too I suppose...

Not everything would go down. Fortunately, not all servers are running IIS on windows server, etc... Also, don't some business's have versions that don't require authentication?

I agree not everything will go down, starting of course with systems running Linux, Macs, and pre-DRM versions of Windows

Actually I would not expect most servers, even those running Windows Server to go down since they are tipically well protected, they just would not get the traffic. Also large enterprise computers would not be affected. It is large numbers of home based and small business computers worldwide running Windows XP that would go down all at once.

The scenario is for example a website running Apache on Linux which has a significant drop in traffic and revenue multiplied by millions of such websites all over the world.

NetInsanity
April 24th, 2006, 06:07 AM
Regardless of which OS you are using you will have to have DRM software installed to be able to play DRM protected files, it doesn't matter if it's XP, Vista or Ubuntu.

The same goes for all the new copy protection stuff in Vista, without a player/OS/hardware that supports it you won't be able to play it, if you want to play it you will need to install/upgrade as neccessary, this isn't a windows only thing.

NetInsanity
April 24th, 2006, 06:09 AM
I agree not everything will go down, starting of course with systems running Linux, Macs, and pre-DRM versions of Windows

Actually I would not expect most servers, even those running Windows Server to go down since they are tipically well protected, they just would not get the traffic. Also large enterprise computers would not be affected. It is large numbers of home based and small business computers worldwide running Windows XP that would go down all at once.

The scenario is for example a website running Apache on Linux which has a significant drop in traffic and revenue multiplied by millions of such websites all over the world.

Pre-DRM versions of windows or other versions, the only difference is that one will play DRM protected material, the other will not. Same goes for Linux and yes DRM is implemented in Linux as well as in XP.

nalmeth
April 24th, 2006, 06:58 AM
Same goes for Linux and yes DRM is implemented in Linux as well as in XP.
What DRM is actually implemented and in use by a public active linux distribution right now? Are you just talking about 3rd party apps?

NetInsanity
April 24th, 2006, 07:09 AM
What DRM is actually implemented and in use by a public active linux distribution right now? Are you just talking about 3rd party apps?

The very point is that without a DRM player you can't play DRM media, which is why Gstreamer, you know, Ubuntu's default, supports DRM in the latest version. (still an optional plugin but that is hardly relevant)

Dr. C
April 24th, 2006, 07:20 AM
Regardless of which OS you are using you will have to have DRM software installed to be able to play DRM protected files, it doesn't matter if it's XP, Vista or Ubuntu.

The same goes for all the new copy protection stuff in Vista, without a player/OS/hardware that supports it you won't be able to play it, if you want to play it you will need to install/upgrade as neccessary, this isn't a windows only thing.

Not really

Technically is it depends on the particular DRM and whether or not is has been "cracked" (most have). DeCSS and DVDs comes to mind. Legally it depends on where one lives, not all countries have draconian laws such as the United States DMCA.

The sad truth about DRM is that it does little to stop piracy, what it does do is cause many problems for legitimate users who pay for the "protected" content. Take the now infamous SONY rootkit for example.

What is unique about Windows XP and Vista is that the OS itself is crippled by DRM in the form of "product activation" very different from the ability to play protected content.

As for Vista the implementation of DRM in the kernel to meet the requirements of the MPAA can have ramifications well beyond the ability to play protected content, particularly if there are any bugs in the DRM. Something tells me that the Vista delay may be due to buggy DRM.

NetInsanity
April 24th, 2006, 07:40 AM
Not really

Technically is it depends on the particular DRM and whether or not is has been "cracked" (most have). DeCSS and DVDs comes to mind. Legally it depends on where one lives, not all countries have draconian laws such as the United States DMCA.

AFAIK DeCSS cannot be distributed legally which is why it's not included in Ubuntu. And while i could ship it i prefer not to because it would mean supporting a CP project.


The sad truth about DRM is that it does little to stop piracy, what it does do is cause many problems for legitimate users who pay for the "protected" content. Take the now infamous SONY rootkit for example.

What is unique about Windows XP and Vista is that the OS itself is crippled by DRM in the form of "product activation" very different from the ability to play protected content.

As for Vista the implementation of DRM in the kernel to meet the requirements of the MPAA can have ramifications well beyond the ability to play protected content, particularly if there are any bugs in the DRM. Something tells me that the Vista delay may be due to buggy DRM.

I agree entirely, i have already seen HDCP dongels, after that is broken anything can be recorded (in this case from digital source so it's the same quality).

Vista goes a few steps further, the choice of MS to meet the rest of the industry doesn't really come as a surprise.

The amusing part of this is that my 52" flatscreen does not support HDCP so instead of buying the media as i always have, i'll instead bypass all hardware requirements and download the cracked versions for free.

The vista delay isn't a delay, the timetable was an estimate, why is Ubuntu dapper not released in april, same thing, estimates don't always meet the requirements for stability or wish for implemented functionality, that part has nothing to do with the DRM (which in Vista is more related to CP and HDCP and is no longer called DRM).

I do love the stance Vista has taken with MACL and security thinking, it's a step above Linux even with SELinux, for that reason alone i will be purchasing it.

3rdalbum
April 24th, 2006, 08:22 AM
DRM is so futile. No matter how good the protection of an audio file, you can still record it out of your sound card to the same computer, which effectively bypasses the security. Heck, the AAC format gets cracked every time a new version comes out.

When Sony first introduced copy-protected CDs, you could bypass the protection by using a black texta.

The community will crack the monitor protection too. Microsoft doesn't have a very good record with encryption (look at the Xbox), so it'll probably happen within a year. All these companies will be spending big bucks on DRM, which may deter some casual piracy but will not pay for itself in increased sales.

BoyOfDestiny
April 24th, 2006, 02:54 PM
DRM is so futile. No matter how good the protection of an audio file, you can still record it out of your sound card to the same computer, which effectively bypasses the security.

Actually they are trying to stop that, including camcorders not being able to record from TV. Seriously.

Hollywood Wants to Plug the "Analog Hole"
http://bpdg.blogs.eff.org/archives/000113.html

Also worth mentioning despite all the documented problems and abuses with the DMCA and it's chilling effect on innovation...

Congress readies broad new digital copyright bill
http://news.com.com/2100-1028_3-6064016.html?part=rss&tag=6064016&subj=news

I personally don't think this will go through. However, it shows they are puppets to these industries... Sigh, this will destroy culture big time... Anyone live in a nice place that isn't the U.S. or the EU? Where it's legal to watch your DVD's or rip your own cds? Is there such a fantasy place...

Dr. C
April 24th, 2006, 08:00 PM
... Anyone live in a nice place that isn't the U.S. or the EU? Where it's legal to watch your DVD's or rip your own cds? Is there such a fantasy place...

Canada comes close.

Canada has not ratified WIPO yet and the proposed amemdments to the Copyright Act Bill C-60 which contained a much milder version of the US DCMA died with the fall of the past Liberal government.

tribaal
April 24th, 2006, 08:06 PM
Is there such a fantasy place...

Welcome to Switzerland :)

- trib'

BoyOfDestiny
April 24th, 2006, 08:14 PM
Welcome to Switzerland :)

- trib'

I'm googling and checking the embassy site for info about living and working in Switzerland... A man can dream :)...

Just finished college (a few weeks ago), Information and Computer Science bachelor's degree, can speak english and spanish fluently...

nalmeth
April 24th, 2006, 08:41 PM
This has got to be a joke:
April 26 - World Intellectual Property Day (http://www.wipo.int/about-ip/en/world_ip/2006/)

:-k

BoyOfDestiny
April 24th, 2006, 08:52 PM
This has got to be a joke:
April 26 - World Intellectual Property Day (http://www.wipo.int/about-ip/en/world_ip/2006/)

:-k

LOL... I am amused too, on the page:

"Quotes about Creativity [Dowloadable executable file]"

They don't have the quotes listed. You have to download a mysterious binary...

Sigh to honor this day, please share your books, music, games, with other people.

Honestly,

"World Intellectual Property Day is an opportunity to encourage people to think about the role played by intellectual property in everyday life, and about its importance in stimulating and safeguarding innovation and creativity. This year we celebrate the starting point of all intellectual property, the seeds from which all innovations and creative works grow – ideas."

I know copyright can be handy (although I think in many cases it lasts too long), and trademarks too, but IP lumps these with patents... I've yet to see a software patent encourage anything (besides people whining about mp3 playback not being out of the box :) )
I'd like some evidence that IP has actually encouraged any sort of innovation. I found a list of the opposite:

http://www.eff.org/IP/DMCA/?f=unintended_consequences.html

imagine
April 25th, 2006, 12:13 AM
Vista goes a few steps further, the choice of MS to meet the rest of the industry doesn't really come as a surprise.Which is a shame, because Micros~1 with their 90% market share on desktop operating systems could really do something against DRM. But apparently they don't want to.


The vista delay isn't a delay, the timetable was an estimate, why is Ubuntu dapper not released in april, same thingUbuntu will probably be released with a delay of six weeks.
Vista (back then it only had its codename Longhorn) was originally scheduled for the end of 2002. Now it's 2006 and it's still not finished. That's not the "same thing" as six weeks.

blastus
April 25th, 2006, 01:16 AM
DRM is mentioned in the Windows XP EULA. To what extent Windows XP incorporates DRM, I don't know. The only thing one can bank on, is that subsequent versions of Windows will include more and more support for and integration of DRM. DRM is here to stay and Microsoft's NGSCB (http://www.microsoft.com/resources/ngscb/default.mspx), which will eventually make its way into Windows, will initiate the beginning of a new DRM era for Windows users. As Microsoft says, their glorious NGSCB will help "customers realize their full potential." Whatever that means I don't know.

htinn
April 25th, 2006, 03:30 AM
DRM that I have complete control over is fine and dandy, and there are many uses for that which I strongly approve.

DRM that some schmuck somewhere else controls is not acceptable.