Why are computer fonts still Imperial-based?

[earthpigg]

Why do we still use inches to define our font sizes?

Computer stuff is supposed to be bleeding-edge wave of the future, etc, but font size X is still defined as exactly X/72 inches (http://www.unitarium.com/font).

in fine Imperial system tradition, 72 is of course a completely ridiculous number to use.

is there any move to redefine this?

[lisati]

I would have thought that in the imperial system, 72, i.e. 6 dozen, makes good sense sense. It's half of 144, a number also known as "one gross", thus making 72 only half gross. :D

But seriously: some habits are hard to discard. Where I live we've been using metric measurements for over 30 years, but I still sometimes think of body weight and height in terms of the imperial units.

[amauk]

Mainly because it mirrors the printing world, and typefaces are imperial in the printed world because they date back to the printing press

[Cuddles McKitten]

We use logical numbering for fonts once we get off this Babylonian, base-twelve nonsense for time and angle/degree measurements.

(Seriously though, I want decimal time.)

[nlsthzn]

Well, the base for all computers is binary and not decimal... and that isn't going to change any time soon (if ever) ;)

[handy]

When Oz changed from imperial to metric due to the world agreement that it was a part of, one of the things that we have never been able to become fully metric on is plumbing fittings.

For obvious reasons.

[mick222]

We use logical numbering for fonts once we get off this Babylonian, base-twelve nonsense for time and angle/degree measurements.

(Seriously though, I want decimal time.)

Whats wrong with time as it stands most people can cope with lots of base systems . If it was good enough for the Babylonians then it's good enough for me, By the way the Babylonians main system was Sexagesimal which time is based on. 60secs = 1min 60min = 1hour

[handy]

The Ancient Egyptians seem to be responsible for our 24hour day:

http://www.newsweird.com/2010121112/alien-and-bazaar-ufo-sightings/is-armadas-of-giant-real-alien-ships-moving-towards-the-earth-soon-arrive-3290/attachment/approaching-alien-ships-captured-on-telescope

[Sean Moran]

Come to think of it, why do they sell eggs and bottles of beer by the dozen? ;)

[handy]

The older the habit, the harder it is to kill it.

I'd actually like to see the West change its calendar to be inline with the phases of the moon. The days & months would then at least mean something more than just making the year be mathematically correct (as best it can).

[julio_cortez]

We use logical numbering for fonts once we get off this Babylonian, base-twelve nonsense for time and angle/degree measurements.
(Seriously though, I want decimal time.)
I think that the reason we still have 12-based (or 60-based aswell) time measurement is simple: so days/hours/minutes can be divided for 2, for 3 and for 4 without generating something weird..

Think about it, would it be better saying "we'll meet at 12:20 PM" or "we'll meet at 12,33333333333333333333333333333333333 PM"?

[slackthumbz]

I measure my font sizes in pixels.

*shrugs* 8-)

[bouncingwilf]

The French did decide to do decimal times and dates right about the time they were lopping aristo's heads off http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Republican_Calendar - somehow it didn't catch on.

More to the point, why are we using this inefficient decimal Kilo/grams system when we could be using machine friendly Hexadecimal pounds/ounces/drams ( 1lb = 16 oz = 256 drams)

As a professional scientist, I've been using the MKS system for over 50 years - and I still think in (and prefer) miles/stones/acres etc!


Bouncingwilf

[mick222]

More to the point, why are we using this inefficient decimal Kilo/grams system when we could be using machine friendly Hexadecimal pounds/ounces/drams ( 1lb = 16 oz = 256 drams)

As a professional scientist, I've been using the MKS system for over 50 years - and I still think in (and prefer) miles/stones/acres etc!


Bouncingwilf

Agreed somehow it is easier to imagine old imperial measures rather than Metric ones. even though i have used the metric system for most of my life.

[Tristam Green]

Why do hotdogs come in packages of 8, and buns come in packages of six? WHYYYY?

[forrestcupp]

Well, the base for all computers is binary and not decimal... and that isn't going to change any time soon (if ever) ;)Good point. I guess I'm 100110 years old. :)



I'd actually like to see the West change its calendar to be inline with the phases of the moon. The days & months would then at least mean something more than just making the year be mathematically correct (as best it can).
How hard would that be to reconcile with a revolution around the sun, which is what a year really is?

[3Miro]

This is probably a FUD, but it can make a good joke.

Why are the thrusters of the space shuttle as wide as they are?

They could only be transported by trains on rails, so the thrusters had to fit on the rails. The train rails are as wide as they are, because of an old Imperial standard, which was based upon the old Roman roads. The Romans build their roads as wide as they did to match the number of horses that were pulling their wagons/chariots. The width of the thrusters of the space shuttle are based on the "two horse butts" metric used in ancient Rome.

[amauk]

since when did the romans go to america?
(unless you're saying the shuttle thrusters were built in europe?)

[Lucradia]

pixels and points aren't imperial.

[amauk]

pixels and points aren't imperial.
points are
it's 1/72 inches

[Cuddles McKitten]

This is probably a FUD, but it can make a good joke.

Why are the thrusters of the space shuttle as wide as they are?

They could only be transported by trains on rails, so the thrusters had to fit on the rails. The train rails are as wide as they are, because of an old Imperial standard, which was based upon the old Roman roads. The Romans build their roads as wide as they did to match the number of horses that were pulling their wagons/chariots. The width of the thrusters of the space shuttle are based on the "two horse butts" metric used in ancient Rome.

Your initial suspicion was correct:

http://www.snopes.com/history/american/gauge.asp

It's an interesting article and not too long. It should only take four millidays or so to read.

[forrestcupp]

since when did the romans go to america?
(unless you're saying the shuttle thrusters were built in europe?)

Are you saying that Americans don't use Imperial units or that the Romans didn't?

[amauk]

Are you saying that Americans don't use Imperial units or that the Romans didn't?No
Unless I misunderstood, he said that american railways are based off of roman roads
But trust me, the romans never went to america

[MisterGaribaldi]

Because fonts were developed in Europe at a time a few hundred years before the invention and adoption of the Metric System, and because computers and computer technology is a historically American phenomenon. While I certainly "get" the utility of the Metric System, I've never needed to use it, so I really can't say if the whole "fonts are Imperial System-based" is good, bad, or indifferent.

I suspect it's indifferent, but that's just my opinion.

[koenn]

Think about it, would it be better saying "we'll meet at 12:20 PM" or "we'll meet at 12,33333333333333333333333333333333333 PM"?

except that you wouldn't say 12,333...3 any more than you now pick odd times like 13 minutes and 45 seconds past 12. You pick the nearest sensible time point. 12,3 or so. Also, the meaningful fractions of an hour might change if you have, say, 10 hrs in a day, in stead of 24.

[koenn]

... I've been using the MKS system for over 50 years - and I still think in (and prefer) miles/stones/acres etc!



maybe because :


Reason: old and senile

[MisterGaribaldi]

Hey, it's always fun talking to foreigners! You never know *what* may happen.

[cpmman]

because computers and computer technology is a historically American phenomenon.

Whose history?

The USA is without peer in exploiting computing and almost everything else worldwide but it is always a purchaser of ideas invented elsewhere.

[earthpigg]

this thread has turned very interesting. im glad i created it.

[alphacrucis2]

Good point. I guess I'm 100110 years old. :)


How hard would that be to reconcile with a revolution around the sun, which is what a year really is?

Not that hard. Lunisolar calendars are nothing new.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunisolar_calendar

[3Miro]

since when did the romans go to america?
(unless you're saying the shuttle thrusters were built in europe?)

The link goes: Rome -> England -> USA -> Space Shuttle. As Cuddles McKitten points out this is not entirely true. However, it is true that often times people stick to old ways and standards pass the time that they should be changed.

http://ubuntu-ky.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1629998

BTW I had no idea about the fonts being set in inches. I just know them as relative numbers.

[koenn]

Not that hard. Lunisolar calendars are nothing new.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunisolar_calendar
leap months every 2nd or 3rd year, and "some calendars rely on direct observations of the state of vegetation" to determine when to insert them.

Well , maybe that in itself isn't terribly hard, but I imagine calculations that involve time spans would quickly become rather impractical.

Also, dates would always be "give or take 2 weeks". For (at least some) yearly recurring events, that might be ... inconvenient.

[3Miro]

13 months 30 days each and every year give 5-6 days at the end of the year for a large holiday/party. In fact, forget about the 13 months, just make it a large party.

[forrestcupp]

No
Unless I misunderstood, he said that american railways are based off of roman roads
But trust me, the romans never went to america

No. He said that since Americans use the Imperial system, the reason for the size of the space shuttles' thrusters are a result of the Romans coming up with the system in the first place, and he said it in a humorous way.

[koenn]

13 months 30 days each and every year give 5-6 days at the end of the year for a large holiday/party. In fact, forget about the 13 months, just make it a large party.

wouldn't the 5-6 extra days lumped in at the end get the next lunar month out of sync with the monn cycle, by 5-6 days or something ?

[3Miro]

wouldn't the 5-6 extra days lumped in at the end get the next lunar month out of sync with the monn cycle, by 5-6 days or something ?

Moon cycle? Why would you want to put thing on Moon cycles? I am talking about a large party here.:mrgreen:

[cgroza]

Sexagesimal which time is based on. 60secs = 1min 60min = 1hour
You mean hexadecimal.

[koenn]

Moon cycle? Why would you want to put thing on Moon cycles? I am talking about a large party here.:mrgreen:

considering the hangovers and trouble trying to remember all the stupid things you've said and/or done, and then the embarassment when you do remember them (or people tell you about them) ... that multiplied by 5 or 6, makes I'm not a big fan of large parties anymore.
Or maybe I'm just getting old.

[koenn]

You mean hexadecimal.
hexadecimal is 16-based

[bouncingwilf]

maybe because :



Yup! I'm old and senile but can still convert between virtually any units system in my head!

Imperial (and their continental counterparts) units were all based on some historically "visual" unit- that everyone could understand ( I know what a metre is - ~3'3" but visualizing 1/10,000,000 of the distance between the equator and the N. Pole is conceptually more difficult)


The argument that decimal units make it easy to calculate has never held water with me either - in practice I've found larger/more frequent mistakes made by tyro's who can't seem to get the Decimal point in the right place - something that happens less frequently when you're not using decimal!.

Anyway, the nurse has come to tuck me in now so I must stop.

Bouncingwilf

[apmcd47]

Traditionally the point wasn't exactly 1/72 of an inch. However Adobe rounded their definition of the size of a point to that size for PostScript - presumably to make calculations easier. No doubt if they had been in a metric-using country they would have rounded to the Metric system. See here. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_(typography)#Traditional_American_point_syst em)

Andrew

[Old_Grey_Wolf]

Maybe because the first computers with monitors had CRTs with 72 pixels per inch, and first used in the US.

[CarpKing]

The calendar we use today is descended from a partly lunar one. The original Roman calendar had ten months, but through reform two more were added (this is why September-December do not line up with the numbers their names imply). To keep it aligned with the solar year, the government would decide each year whether to add days. This caused confusion because the days were usually added to lengthen the terms of political allies or boost popularity through holidays rather than following any pattern. Julius Caesar moved to a purely solar calendar with influence from Egypt, setting the year length at 365 with a leap day every four years. With a slight modification in the 1500s to skip the occasional leap day, this is the calendar we use today.

[koenn]

Yup! I'm old and senile but can still convert between virtually any units system in my head!
Imperial (and their continental counterparts) units were all based on some historically "visual" unit- that everyone could understand ( I know what a metre is - ~3'3" but visualizing 1/10,000,000 of the distance between the equator and the N. Pole is conceptually more difficult)

I'm not senile (not that I know, at least), and I hate conversions.
I can visualize, say, a rectangular volume of 2 cubic meters, but I've had to negociate freights with people who measured volume in cubic foot.

So, tell me, this 1x1x2 meter trunk of mine, what's its volume in cubic feet ?


Most traditional units will be derived from some reference people easily get (parts of the body, the length of a stride ...) but the tolerances are such that, sooner or later, you have to define an arbitrary compromise as "the standard" : I doubt that the length of my foot is exactly "1 foot".


So these imperial units are just as arbitrary as the SI units. And being able to visualise them ? I can vusualize 1 meter. Noit in terms of a fraction of a wave of light, but in a distance like "from here to there, or thereabouts". I think it just depends on the words you are given when you learn distances.





The argument that decimal units make it easy to calculate has never held water with me either - in practice I've found larger/more frequent mistakes made by tyro's who can't seem to get the Decimal point in the right place - something that happens less frequently when you're not using decimal!.

That's true, especially when you're not paying attention to the orders of magnitude of your calculations or don't really understand how decimal points work.







Anyway, the nurse has come to tuck me in now so I must stop.

I quoted a lot so you'll still remember this conversation by the time you get back
:)

[bouncingwilf]

[
I can visualize, say, a rectangular volume of 2 cubic meters, but I've had to negociate freights with people who measured volume in cubic foot.

So, tell me, this 1x1x2 meter trunk of mine, what's its volume in cubic feet ?

]

off the top of my head without checking 70.612 Cu ft

Most traditional units will be derived from some reference people easily get (parts of the body, the length of a stride ...) but the tolerances are such that, sooner or later, you have to define an arbitrary compromise as "the standard" : I doubt that the length of my foot is exactly "1 foot".

Indeed, I don't disagree - but I still prefer imperial and at least the term foot gives one a rough idea of the order of the metric i.e a mental visual comparison.

So these imperial units are just as arbitrary as the SI units. And being able to visualise them ? I can vusualize 1 meter. Noit in terms of a fraction of a wave of light, but in a distance like "from here to there, or thereabouts". I think it just depends on the words you are given when you learn distances.

Yup, related to how long an arrow was or how much land an oxen could plough in a day etc etc They seem illogical but when you understand the system, it was amazing the way they all fitted together.


Bouncingwilf - nurse says I mustn't get too excited.

[jennybrew]

Why do we still use inches to define our font sizes?


Well another way of looking at it is why not?:)

[koenn]

off the top of my head without checking 70.612 Cu ft

assuming a bit more than 3ft ~ 1 meter I'd expect something near 3 * 3 * 6 ~ 60 so I'll assume it's correct. How do you do it ? do you break it down in L x W x H , convert those, than multiply them to get volume, or do you just go 'cubic meter to cubic feet is multiply by 35.and add change ...) ?

[koenn]

... and at least the term foot gives one a rough idea of the order of the metric i.e a mental visual comparison.

a foot, yes. otoh, I have no idea how much land an oxen can plow in a day. Maybe because I've never had to plow. Not with an oxen.




They seem illogical but when you understand the system, it was amazing the way they all fitted together.
I've been wondering about that.
A lot of it seemse based on a factor 12,
and at one point it occured to me that eg the fractions of an inch always seem to be 1/4 - 3/8 - 1/2 - 5/8 - 3/4 - 15/16 - they always looked pretty random to me until I realized they're actually steps of 1/8 or 2/16 (wel; more ore less) and that eg a 1 and 15/16 inch pipe would pass nicely through a 2 inch hole.

But that's all the logic I see. Is there anything more to it ? I'm curious. (and I'd hate having to do calculations with those fractions)