Does it ever get any easier?

[oopsie]

I've been using Linux as my only OS for around a year now, and things just don't seem to be getting any easier.

I'm not saying I've learned nothing. Just that the tricks I've learned in the past year don't seem to be preventing me running into an unending wall of problems.

I download software from the repositories and frequently they only work partially or sometimes don't work at all. Or, they download, but there's no obvious way to start it. Or I can start it, but there's no obvious way to use it. I can and have spent hours Googling how to get various pieces of software working, frequently with minimal success. There seems to be an extreme lack of documentation for a lot of what is in the repositories. And the man pages are frequently cryptic and difficult to follow.

Other times I'll want to use some software or a game, and find out there are binaries available for Windows and Mac, but only source files for Linux. Despite my best efforts and lots of Googling, I'm only at about a 40% success rate with compiling programmes from source.

I've often resorted to using Wine to run Windows software in Linux, even though there's a Linux version of the programme I want to run, but I just can't manage to compile or get to work properly. That just doesn't seem right to me. That I can often run Windows software easier on Linux than I can run Linux software.

Another annoying Linux feature, is it's habit of exploding anything I install into dozens of different directories. Then later when I need to add another file or bit of data, I don't have a clue where it should go. More frustrating is that the documentation online frequently says things along the line of "Once you've installed the programme, download blah and extract it to the programmes folder", obviously aimed at the windows version and no help for me.

Today's problem is something downloaded straight from the repositories. It's complicated and uses a lot of command line options. I search for documentation, but there's very little and I'm none the wiser for reading it. Then I discovered a UI for it! So I downloaded it and ran it, the UI looked complicated, so I go to the help menu and click help. Then I get "Unable to load page. The requested URI "ghelp:gmameui" is invalid". I try my best to figure out how to get it to work without documentation or help, yet no luck. Maybe I'm being stupid, or maybe the software isn't working right. I just don't know.

The built in help is missing. There is very little help I've been able to Google. The man page is a confusing mess of switches and options, with not a single example or real explanation. Yes, it's another normal day of my experience with Ubuntu and Linux in general.

Sorry for going on so long. I'm just very frustrated. Sorry.

[Zzl1xndd]

I am sympathetic to your situation. However I can say its gotten a lot easier for me. I rarely have issues installing software or using it. That being said though I normally try to avoid Software that I need to compile.

I always look for .deb, .run, .sh. just makes things easier.

As for complected interfaces, I can't say I have experienced that myself. Most things seem straight forward, but I guess it depends on what you are used to using or what you expect.

[MooPi]

Yes the learning curve can be steep if you don't have the necessary support. I like to use a three pronged attack for problems. Man pages, Forum, & Google searches, in that order. Persistence patients and tenacity keep me in the game most of the time.

[handy]

I agree with the OP, man pages can be horrid.

In the end I guess it comes down to the fact that Linux is not supported by the huge number of companies that the MS products are, so life IS often tougher for the Linux user.

I think that we either accept that & deal with it, or we go back to Windows, or buy a Mac.

Ultimately just what software you need to run also plays an important part in the equation.

I just basically use Firefox, Worker, Sakura & HandBrakeCLI. There are other app's but they are my prime tools. I'm sure it gets tougher for people that have other more specific tasks that they need to do on Linux.

[Spice Weasel]

Probably the best site for GNU/Linux documentation:

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Main_Page

I use it for whatever distro I'm using, and most of the time it works great. Especially for configuring programs. :)

[koenn]

it does get easier, and as it gets easier, you get to do more complex things, which then are difficult again until you've learned enough, then they get easy, and you'll get to do even more complex things, and so on.

If you install from the repos and the software doesn't run or doesn't show up in one of the main menus, that's a bug.
If it's a command line program, you start it by giving the command in a shell. >If it's a daemon, it'll autostart - in rare cases you have to make it autostart (by modifying its start script or by configuring the program correctly).
So, if you constantly run into problems with software that you don't know how to run or use, there's most likely an underlying issue, possibly between the keyboard and the chair.


The fact that a program "explodes into a dozen of different directories" is indeed a feature. Each of does directories holds files of a certain type, so once you understand the purpose of those 10-15 directories, you almost always know where to look for whatever file you need. That makes things easy rather than complicated.
Also, if you constantly need to tweak files outside your home directory in order to get software working, you're dealing with broken software ( or there's an underlying issue ...)

"man" is short for (reference) manual : man pages serve to look up details for things you already know and understand. they're not tutorials or quick start guides. Those, you find on the internet.

[cariboo]

Linux variants, are just like any other operating system, the longer you use it, the easier it gets. I have to agree with the other posters, I tend to stay away from compiling from source, and look for something with an install script, or .debs.

Once you learn to read manpages, they can be most helpful, it took me a couple of years to be really comfortable with them.

[samalex]

Trust me, I've used Linux since the late 90's and it has gotten easier :-D I think with Linux having no centralized point of control (unlike Windows and OSX) there has evolved a sort of order from the chaos that surrounds the many groups and individuals who maintain the code behind Ubuntu or any GNU/Linux system. But there'll always be some chaos until some standards are put into place that all mature distos follow, which I don't think will ever happen.

For most people the software that either comes with Ubuntu on a fresh install or from the repositories is sufficient to do 99% of what they need to do, but it looks like the OP is trying to dig alittle deeper and make changes to the apps that've been installed. He doesn't give many examples of problems he's ran into, but I'll say working in both Linux and Windows worlds that probably 90% of my Linux questions are answered rather quickly by searching forums, news groups, IRC, etc, but it's probably closer to 20% on the Windows related questions. Generally with Windows I'll find TONS of people having the same problem as I but no one has a solution.

Does Linux have room to evolve and get more user friendly??? Most definitely, but looking where it's come from just in my years of using it, I think it's become a VERY mature operating system over time and something that most users and businesses could embrace and thrive with.

Sam

[aysiu]

When I first tried to migrate to Linux back in 2004, I had a lot of trouble and just gave up, frustrated.

Then I tried again in 2005, first with Mepis and then Ubuntu, and it's been a lot easier ever since.

That said, I think the ease people have transitioning over to Linux varies greatly depending on their computing needs. All the software I need is readily available in the repositories, and a lot of it is even installed by default in Ubuntu. I have no need to compile from source obscure applications, or to get new versions of the software I use more than once every six months.

If you do use obscure software (that has available only source .tar.gz files) or absolutely need to have the cutting edge latest software the minute it comes out, Ubuntu definitely isn't for you... and just be aware that if you go with a rolling release distro like Arch Linux, you may be able to get the latest software immediately but there are other hurdles you'll have to deal with.

No one operating system is the best operating system for everybody. Mac OS X may be the best for some. Windows the best for others. Some form of Linux or non-Mac BSD the best for still others. Just find what's right for you and use it.

[Ctrl-Alt-F1]

Most of my software is available in the repositories as well. If you are having trouble finding applications you've downloaded there's a good chance that it is a cli only program with no graphical user interface.

I have a few programs that I like to use that aren't in the repositories but I've found binary packages to run for them (already compiled).

Compiling is possible once you learn how though. I've compiled about 3 programs that I wanted to try in the last couple of months.

[3Miro]

Software from the repos not working all the time ... Downloading and compiling software by hand ... Tweaking files all over the place ...

This sounds like my experience with Lunar Linux, except Lunar is a fringe source based distribution with only a small development team and user base. If you are having all of those problems with Ubuntu, then you are either doing something exceptionally rare or exceptionally wrong.

Can you please tell us what kind of software doesn't run straight out of the repository, what is it that you need to compile and what is this program that runs better under wine as opposed to its native Linux version. I am sure many of us are curious about more details on this.

PS: Are you by any chance running Kubuntu with an older ATI graphics card?

[oopsie]

Can you please tell us what kind of software doesn't run straight out of the repository
There's been various bits and pieces. But because they don't work, I don't use them, which pretty much means I forget their names fairly fast. The last thing I tried from the repositories that didn't work was just a game called "netpanzer". I installed it, but it wouldn't run at all.


what is it that you need to compile
At the moment, nothing.


what is this program that runs better under wine as opposed to its native Linux version
There have been a few. The most recent is xsteem vs steem. I just cannot get sound working under xsteem at all, which is annoying because I actually figured out how to get it working once back in 10.04. But I've forgotten what I did. steem sound works straight off with no messing about, and is perfect with a few little setting tweaks.

[ubunterooster]

Seriously, why is everyone so opposed to compilation?

[aysiu]

Seriously, why is everyone so opposed to compilation?
Much like washing the dishes, it's fine if you want to do it. But it's annoying if you don't want to.

[the8thstar]

Much like washing the dishes, it's fine if you want to do it. But it's annoying if you don't want to.

To second that, I'd say that compiling from source is like saying: "I got a dishwasher but I'd rather do the dishes by hand." It's really pointless if repositories are there to fit your needs and install the applications you need without a hitch.

[aysiu]

To second that, I'd say that compiling from source is like saying: "I got a dishwasher but I'd rather do the dishes by hand." It's really pointless if repositories are there to fit your needs and install the applications you need without a hitch. To further the analogy, it's not really that people have a problem with washing dishes by hand, but if that's the only option available, it makes sense that some people might want a dishwasher.

Personally, I prefer to wash dishes by hand but not to compile software from source.

[Spice Weasel]

To second that, I'd say that compiling from source is like saying: "I got a dishwasher but I'd rather do the dishes by hand." It's really pointless if repositories are there to fit your needs and install the applications you need without a hitch.

There are lots of great programs out there that are a pain in the *** to find rpm/deb packages for. That's when you need to do it. It also helps to do it if you have a program with lack of configuration options (like fspanel, you can't change the background colour unless you recompile it.)

Also, what do you think about compiling kernels to gain hardware support? :confused:

[3Miro]

As a Lunar and Gentoo user I follow the principle: "If it moves, compile it!"

I will try this xsteem thing.

[ubunterooster]

There are lots of great programs out there that are a pain in the *** to find rpm/deb packages for. That's when you need to do it. It also helps to do it if you have a program with lack of configuration options (like fspanel, you can't change the background colour unless you recompile it.)

Also, what do you think about compiling kernels to gain hardware support? :confused:
I see it as washing dishes in which I don't really care, I'll just do what ever is faster. If it is faster to wash a dish then to fit it in the dishwasher it makes no difference to me.

And why not compile kernels?

[cariboo]

Back in the day when the kernel didn't have smp support by default, I compiled my own kernels, but I haven't bothered for years. For the small increase in speed, it just isn't worth it any more

[Old *ix Geek]

man pages serve to look up details for things you already know and understand. they're not tutorials or quick start guides. Those, you find on the internet.Ha ha ha! I wish that had been true in 1985! :lolflag: At this point, there's no way for me to accurately quantify how much of what I learned about UNIX back then came straight from its man pages, but it was a lot. So I definitely disagree on the idea that man pages are for things you ALREADY know and understand. I used to flip through page after page of the SCO Xenix manuals to see what else there was that I hadn't discovered yet, then I'd plunge in and start trying them out--with nothing but the man pages for help. And, personally, I think that's a BRILLIANT way of learning about *nix--try various combinations of arguments for a new command and see what happens. Trial and error teaches you a lot!

[Old *ix Geek]

I download software from the repositories and frequently they only work partially or sometimes don't work at all. Or, they download, but there's no obvious way to start it. Or I can start it, but there's no obvious way to use it.This and other remarks you made ("Then I get 'Unable to load page. The requested URI "ghelp:gmameui" is invalid.'" "The built in help is missing.") suggest to me that you're missing files. Either your installation is incomplete somehow, or the programs you're trying to run are missing some of their required files. Do you ever see messages like "depends on XYZ"--and then not install XYZ? Or when you're downloading software and there's a list of dependencies, are you sure you have all of them? Seriously, it sounds like something's broken.


And the man pages are frequently cryptic and difficult to follow.Man pages are your friends! Sure they can be cryptic, but everything you need to know about a command is right there in its man page.

I'm only at about a 40% success rate with compiling programmes from source.Can you give us some examples of what happens when it fails?

I've often resorted to using Wine to run Windows software in Linux, even though there's a Linux version of the programme I want to run, but I just can't manage to compile or get to work properly. That just doesn't seem right to me. That I can often run Windows software easier on Linux than I can run Linux software.No, it's not right, nor is it the intended behavior of Linux. Again, I think you're missing some necessary files.

Another annoying Linux feature, is its habit of exploding anything I install into dozens of different directories. Then later when I need to add another file or bit of data, I don't have a clue where it should go.That's easy to remedy, on several levels. First of all, when you're trying to add "another file or bit of data," how do you know you're supposed to add them? And where did you get them from? I've NEVER seen a situation where I needed to add a file, somehow got hold of it, but didn't see explicit instructions as to where it should be placed.

Second, you can easily find out where everything's installed for a particular program with the whereis command. Just type

man whereis to read all about it! ;) Here's an example I just ran:

$ whereis seamonkey
seamonkey: /usr/bin/seamonkey /etc/seamonkey /usr/lib/seamonkey /usr/local/seamonkey /usr/share/seamonkey

Today's problem is something downloaded straight from the repositories. It's complicated...Tell us what program it is and what happens when you try to install it.

The man page is a confusing mess of switches and options, with not a single example or real explanation.The best way to learn a command is to experiment with its options.

Sorry for going on so long. I'm just very frustrated. Sorry.Don't be sorry. You're frustrated and that's okay. If you can provide specific details I'm sure someone can help.

[koenn]

Ha ha ha! I wish that had been true in 1985! At this point, there's no way for me to accurately quantify how much of what I learned about UNIX back then came straight from its man pages, but it was a lot. So I definitely disagree on the idea that man pages are for things you ALREADY know and understand. I used to flip through page after page of the SCO Xenix manuals to see what else there was that I hadn't discovered yet, then I'd plunge in and start trying them out--with nothing but the man pages for help. And, personally, I think that's a BRILLIANT way of learning about *nix--try various combinations of arguments for a new command and see what happens. Trial and error teaches you a lot!
OK, it is possible, but not for everyone. You're part of a minority.


Besides, my point still stands - you'd have to know a command before you can look it up in man (or you have to stumble upon it from references in other man pages). And even then, something like 'man chmod' is not going to make much sense if you don't already have some idea about how access permissions work - for someone who starts from scratch, 2 paragraphs on a web page or a blog to explain the concept and give a simple example is going to explain more than the entire man page.

likewise, 'man ln' is pretty obscure if you don't already know the concept of links, and how a hard link differs from a symbolic link.
'man iptables' is definitely not a "how to build a firewall" guide.


You actually say as much yourself : man pages for reference, trial and error for the actual learning. Today, you can reuse someone else's trial and error, provided they blogged about it :-)

[Spice Weasel]

+1 for whereis. Really useful command.

[d2btoo]

Didn't knew about whereis, cool! =D>
Is there anyway to list available commands?....

[Spice Weasel]

Didn't knew about whereis, cool! =D>
Is there anyway to list available commands?....

These commands list lots of commands:



info
man -k
help

[koenn]

Is there anyway to list available commands?....


echo $PATH | tr ":" " " | xargs ls | less

[d2btoo]

echo $PATH | tr ":" " " | xargs ls | less


Ohh! Unbelievable! :shock: thank you, very nice. 8-)

@Spice Weasel, thank you! too.

[grahammechanical]

Every time I groan because I do not understand how to use a program and the documentation is not very helpful, I remind myself that I can always correct this failing by writing the documentation myself. We are invited to get involved in development in this way, are we not? Anyway, it stops me moaning.

Regards

[Old *ix Geek]

OK, it is possible, but not for everyone. You're part of a minority.You do what you have to do at the time, and back then I had a huge project to accomplish and absolutely no UNIX knowledge. (Long story, but I needed a break before starting medical school; the company I'd been working at part-time while in college (doing data entry) wanted to dump their IBM System/3 mainframes. The owner (it was a furniture store chain) knew my academic ability and offered me the opportunity to take on the project. I accepted. (I have balls, despite being female. :mrgreen:) Then plunged head first into all things UNIX. Immersed myself in it, day and night--had a dedicated phone line at home and a Wyse 60 terminal so I could access the server 24/7. I did it all--programming, system administration, end user support. Within a year we'd transitioned off the IBMs and onto a multi-location, multiuser SCO Xenix system. LOVED every second of it--the pressure, the challenges, the successes--and never looked back. Med school? Changed my mind. Been in the programming/sysadmin field ever since. Well, not now. I've been unable to work since 2003 due to health problems, most recently a brain tumor/brain surgery.)

And now that I've bored you to tears with my life story...

Besides, my point still stands - you'd have to know a command before you can look it up in man (or you have to stumble upon it from references in other man pages).No you don't. We now have a brilliant command I wish I'd had 25 years ago, apropos. Look at this output:

$ apropos file permission
...
chmod (1) - change file mode bits
chown (1) - change file owner and group
...

I don't have to have ANY idea about a command's name in order to search for it. I just need to know what it is I want to accomplish.

And even then, something like 'man chmod' is not going to make much sense if you don't already have some idea about how access permissions work - for someone who starts from scratch, 2 paragraphs on a web page or a blog to explain the concept and give a simple example is going to explain more than the entire man page.

likewise, 'man ln' is pretty obscure if you don't already know the concept of links, and how a hard link differs from a symbolic link.

'man iptables' is definitely not a "how to build a firewall" guide.

You actually say as much yourself : man pages for reference, trial and error for the actual learning. Today, you can reuse someone else's trial and error, provided they blogged about it :-)I see your point, really I do. You're absolutely right that much of the magic that hides beneath the CLI can be cryptic and a bit difficult to understand. But it CAN be done. :)

[Ctrl-Alt-F1]

Didn't knew about whereis, cool! =D>
Is there anyway to list available commands?....

apropos

Try apropos followed by what you are trying to do. It's not exactly what you're asking for I think, but it gives you a short description of commands related to the query you enter.