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kassetra
February 19th, 2005, 02:31 AM
User Reputation is a system for ranking a user's benefit to the forum. The reputation system comes from opinions of other forum users:

You can approve or disapprove of a post's content.
Your approval or disapproval of someone's post will alter their reputation for the better or worse, respectively.

To add to a person's reputation:
Click on the little checkmark/x icon under a person's name & info

mark
February 19th, 2005, 04:39 AM
User Reputation is a system for ranking a user's benefit to the forum. The reputation system comes from opinions of other forum users:

You can approve or disapprove of a post's content.
Your approval or disapproval of someone's post will alter their reputation for the better or worse, respectively.

kassetra - thanks for the rep explanation. However, is there a listing of the supported reputations somewhere? For example, you are "on a distinguished road" whereas I am "off the scale". Since I haven't been very active lately, I gather that "off the scale" is not complimentary - but it would be nice to know what these phrases mean.

Thanks!

mark

kassetra
February 19th, 2005, 04:52 AM
Right now, I believe it is up to ubuntu-geek to decide the settings of the reputation system, so I don't know if he has finished setting it up or not. I'm sure he will post more information when it is available.

ups
February 19th, 2005, 06:53 AM
thats a nice explanation of the system, thanks kassetra... I'd also like to know what are the different types of reputations, and also want to know if there's a way to see others reputation points.

kassetra
February 19th, 2005, 07:09 AM
As far as I know, you can't see the exact points of another user, but the little colored icons next to the number of posts you have made work like this:

black = reputation settings turned off
grey = balance of good & evil (most likely no one has made a comment yet)
dark or unlit red = negative marks from users in the forums
bright or highlighted red = many negative marks
dark or unlit green = positive marks from users in the forums
bright or highlighted green = many positive remarks

ups
February 19th, 2005, 07:17 AM
As far as I know, you can't see the exact points of another user, but the little colored icons next to the number of posts you have made work like this:

black = reputation settings turned off
grey = balance of good & evil (most likely no one has made a comment yet)
dark or unlit red = negative marks from users in the forums
bright or highlighted red = many negative marks
dark or unlit green = positive marks from users in the forums
bright or highlighted green = many positive remarks

Ahh, sounds pretty good, thanks again ;)

[OT: Shouldn't u guys move the forum suggestion thread (and the user-title one to this forum? :)]

Edit: Why is vB code turned off?

kassetra
February 19th, 2005, 07:20 AM
I'll talk to ubuntu-geek and see what he thinks, because that sounds like a good idea. :)

az
February 19th, 2005, 01:16 PM
Does anybody think this is useful? I mean, I make my own opinion about who posts good content and who doesn't.

And when I post, it is to get my point accross, not to _score_ points.

Also, will some people be afraid to post their opinions for fear of getting bad scores?

Many people here are bunched together. Won't you get a sting of threads about nonesense where the posters ding their friends' scores?

Somebody is going to have to convince me that this is actually worth something and not just another table in a the ubuntuforums database.

ubuntu-geek
February 19th, 2005, 02:48 PM
Edit: Why is vB code turned off?


This forum is open to guests to post questions about site issues. I turned off more features to keep spaming of the forum down.

Xian
February 19th, 2005, 02:55 PM
azz said -> Also, will some people be afraid to post their opinions for fear of getting bad scores?
Many people here are bunched together. Won't you get a sting of threads about nonesense where the posters ding their friends' scores?

Somebody is going to have to convince me that this is actually worth something and not just another table in a the ubuntuforums database.

-----------

I agree with most of those comments. On the whole, I do not think it will actually result in what is being attempted which is a good tool that allows users to judge a member's ability to assist others with the appropriate knowledge. Another useful way to go about this is perhaps to only include in a member's post count those contributions that were made outside the community sections.

mark
February 20th, 2005, 05:30 AM
Does anybody think this is useful? I mean, I make my own opinion about who posts good content and who doesn't.

And when I post, it is to get my point accross, not to _score_ points.

Also, will some people be afraid to post their opinions for fear of getting bad scores?

Many people here are bunched together. Won't you get a sting of threads about nonesense where the posters ding their friends' scores?

Somebody is going to have to convince me that this is actually worth something and not just another table in a the ubuntuforums database. If people are going to be ranked (or graded), then, yes, this information would be useful. Whether it's about Ubuntu or bath-buns, if you're going to "rate" people's posts, you should give them a key as to the rating (FYI, if nothing else).

I've posted enough dumb questions that, I think, most folks would say that I'm not concerned about my status in the "ratings". I just think, if you're gonna do it, tell people how it's arrived at.

machiner
February 21st, 2005, 12:21 AM
I wanted to have an opinion on this, but all I could muster was:

Big Wup.

panickedthumb
February 21st, 2005, 12:46 AM
So where do you actually SEE the reputation of users... I can't seem to find it.

This could be something like the "resolved" button that just doesn't work with my account for some reason.

EDIT: doh! Nevermind, it's the little square next to your post count, I'm an idiot.

EDIT again: I still don't get what "off the scale" means in your situation, when you're grey, which should say that your middle of the road. Odd.

EDIT the third: When I click on my reputation thingie it tells me I have xx reputation points... how do you see how many reputation points others have?

kassetra
February 21st, 2005, 01:11 AM
panickedthumb (love that avatar, btw):
you can't see the points of another person, but you can see their little colored icon...

off the scale means not a single person has voted either way. You're "off of the reputation scale, as in, not on it"

machiner
February 21st, 2005, 01:49 AM
I just clicked my little reputation thingy -- ok, I got sucked in...for a minute.

I saw that I had some points. Woohoo!!! It also mentioned that my reputaion "on this post was even."

Does that mean that 50% of those bothered enough to click my little thingy thought I was (am) a dork and that the other 50% are the true seekers of wisdom and recognized my blazing sarcasm?

Or that 50% - dork
other 50% - hit the wrong button?

Oh, me.

kassetra
February 21st, 2005, 01:55 AM
Typically it means that no one has marked you in this particular post... but you might want to check again... ;)

panickedthumb
February 21st, 2005, 03:58 AM
Ah, thanks :) that explains it. u-g needs to post how to use the new features he implemets ;)

And about the avatar-- have you seen Kung Pow? There's an entry on the DVD menu that says "the panicked thumb" where a thumb dude (the one in my avatar) comes out yelling "We've been hit!!" Turns out that thumb dude is from ThumbWars, one of Steve Oedekerk's many thumb movies (ThumbWars, Thumbtanic, the Blair Thumb Project, FrankenThumb, BatThumb, and The GodThumb). They're all hilarious, you should all watch them.

See now, you've made me go off topic ;)

kassetra
February 21st, 2005, 04:14 AM
Ah, thanks :) that explains it. u-g needs to post how to use the new features he implemets ;)

And about the avatar-- have you seen Kung Pow? There's an entry on the DVD menu that says "the panicked thumb" where a thumb dude (the one in my avatar) comes out yelling "We've been hit!!" Turns out that thumb dude is from ThumbWars, one of Steve Oedekerk's many thumb movies (ThumbWars, Thumbtanic, the Blair Thumb Project, FrankenThumb, BatThumb, and The GodThumb). They're all hilarious, you should all watch them.

See now, you've made me go off topic ;)

Or he can just y'know leave it up to those people that should probably drink less coffee and spend more time off of their computers... heh.

And YES I have seen them, that's why I LOVE your avatar!
(p.s. there's nothing wrong with a tangential mind!) ;)

panickedthumb
February 21st, 2005, 04:51 AM
*blinks*
You're the third person I know who has seen those.
Me. My fiancee. You.
And the two or three people we've made watch them.
The dvd commentary for the Blair Thumb is VERY trippy. The insane commentary, that is.
"Ned Beatty, Ned Beatty, Ned Beatty!"

We should stop this now or it will get out of hand and will get so exciting people will die of heart attacks and our reputations will go down.
(See how I brought it back to the topic? Oh yeah...)

wallijonn
February 21st, 2005, 04:59 AM
I think 'reputation points' are a "let's have fun and bring everybody together, feel good game" type of "thing". The more serious amonst us will probably ignore that "feature".

Abxzone.com has the same feature and what I appreciate most is the national flags under people's avatars. At Abxzone I chose the flag of Spain. I guess that's why I like the Ubuntu_red-yellow style. :D

kassetra
February 21st, 2005, 05:23 AM
*blinks*
You're the third person I know who has seen those.
Me. My fiancee. You.
And the two or three people we've made watch them.
The dvd commentary for the Blair Thumb is VERY trippy. The insane commentary, that is.
"Ned Beatty, Ned Beatty, Ned Beatty!"

We should stop this now or it will get out of hand and will get so exciting people will die of heart attacks and our reputations will go down.
(See how I brought it back to the topic? Oh yeah...)

LOL oh yeah, you're on topic.
Seriously though, I'm kind of a strange duck as it is... I watch athf, the big o, powerpuff girls, and all other kinds of weirdnesses.. (ever seen tampopo dandelion?)... so maybe this will cause you to be less surprised?

panickedthumb
February 21st, 2005, 06:39 AM
1. athf is on now-- I adore that show
2. what's the big o?
3. PPG-- I used to watch it religiously, but I haven't seen it in ages.
4. Tampopo dandelion? What the h-e-double-dandelions is that?

But yes, I'm much less surprised.

kassetra
February 21st, 2005, 06:48 AM
The big O (http://www.ex.org/5.1/13-anime_bigo.html) = popular anime
Tampopo Dandelion (http://www.digsmagazine.com/laze/flick_tampopo.htm) ... uhhhh... that one you'll just have to see for yourself... heh.

panickedthumb
February 21st, 2005, 07:41 AM
Big O looks good, Tampoo.... er... kinda weird *L*

kassetra
February 21st, 2005, 07:49 AM
LOL yeah, exactly my point.

Tampopo is weird... but it's soooo funny in certain parts.

piedamaro
February 21st, 2005, 12:32 PM
Typically it means that no one has marked you in this particular post... but you might want to check again... ;)
So why I get 11 points if anyone has marked that post?

EDIT: "this post" always points to the last post I made...weird, I thought it pointed to the post where someone marked you.

machiner
February 21st, 2005, 02:37 PM
Panikedthumb said -
"(See how I brought it back to the topic? Oh yeah...)"

machiner fell down from the humor. Gawdamn that was funny at just the right time and in just the right ways...it's hard to type. Funny rules.

panickedthumb
February 21st, 2005, 04:07 PM
;) Glad you're ok and nothing is broken.

mark
February 23rd, 2005, 03:12 AM
Hey, if Ubuntu types can't have fun here, then something's seriously wrong...(and in a thread like this one, is anything THAT off-topic?)

CowPie
March 1st, 2005, 01:07 AM
User Reputation is a system for ranking a user's benefit to the forum. The reputation system comes from opinions of other forum users:

You can approve or disapprove of a post's content.
Your approval or disapproval of someone's post will alter their reputation for the better or worse, respectively.

To add to a person's reputation:
Click on the little checkmark/x icon under a person's name & info
I love reputation/dots, they're a nice way to comment on a post without hijacking a thread.

arctic
March 25th, 2005, 04:27 PM
i am sorry, but i feel that this reputation thing is useless and contraproductive. it is one reason why i left the fedoraforums, where they also implemented this thing. why should we rate others? there is no benefit as MOST people do not care about rating and giving feedback. and if they give feedback, they usually only give negative feedback because positive answers are always expected. only few people realize that things that might work on system A might not work on system B, although the problem is the same. and who do they blame? the one who did his very best to help. this is an excellent way to make people feel bad.

furthermore, the rating system destroys the democratic way, forums usually tend to reflect. some contributers are seen "more valuable" persons than others. it reminds me a bit of george orwells animal farm.

it would have been nice if the moderators would have started a poll on that, before implementing the rating system. ;)

p.s: i know, this might come a bit late, but i was away for some time, so i stumbled upon this recently.

kassetra
March 25th, 2005, 06:33 PM
i am sorry, but i feel that this reputation thing is useless and contraproductive. it is one reason why i left the fedoraforums, where they also implemented this thing. why should we rate others? there is no benefit as MOST people do not care about rating and giving feedback. and if they give feedback, they usually only give negative feedback because positive answers are always expected. only few people realize that things that might work on system A might not work on system B, although the problem is the same. and who do they blame? the one who did his very best to help. this is an excellent way to make people feel bad.

furthermore, the rating system destroys the democratic way, forums usually tend to reflect. some contributers are seen "more valuable" persons than others. it reminds me a bit of george orwells animal farm.

it would have been nice if the moderators would have started a poll on that, before implementing the rating system. ;)

p.s: i know, this might come a bit late, but i was away for some time, so i stumbled upon this recently.

Well, so far none of the concerns you have - have come to fruition. The Ubuntu forums are quite a bit different than most other forums, and we have not been plagued with these kinds of issues. I'm sure we would look at the reputation system again if we were.

And if anything at all, the reputation system in these forums simply gives some people a little feedback (most of the people on these forums choose to give positive feedback or none at all). There have been no instances of some people being seen as more valuable than others, so while your fears are very real and have happened on other forums, we will keep them in mind and be watchful should that happen here.

As to the polling first - this was the administrator's decision, and while he does ask for a lot of input from the users of these forums, it is completely within his discretion if he chooses to implement some features without asking the community at large.

ubuntu-geek
March 25th, 2005, 09:03 PM
Very well put kassetra. If the reputation system does indeed become something we don't like we will remove it, so far there have been no reported issuses of abuse..

arctic
March 25th, 2005, 09:19 PM
There have been no instances of some people being seen as more valuable than others, so while your fears are very real and have happened on other forums, we will keep them in mind and be watchful should that happen here.
okay. :)

Paul Sinnett
March 27th, 2005, 03:07 AM
:-k So when you click on the feedback it has a box for a comment. What happens to those comments? Do they show up somewhere?

kassetra
March 27th, 2005, 03:10 AM
:-k So when you click on the feedback it has a box for a comment. What happens to those comments? Do they show up somewhere?

They show up in the user's control panel. :)

Paul Sinnett
March 27th, 2005, 03:51 AM
They show up in the user's control panel. :)

As private messages?

kassetra
March 28th, 2005, 10:11 PM
As private messages?

No. As soon as you click on "User CP" -- you see your score and what comments people have left. They're not private messages, they're part of your user control panel. :)

Paul Sinnett
March 29th, 2005, 06:30 AM
No. As soon as you click on "User CP" -- you see your score and what comments people have left.

Oh, okay. I don't see anything. I guess I must not have any feedback :-(

kassetra
March 29th, 2005, 06:39 AM
Oh, okay. I don't see anything. I guess I must not have any feedback :-(

Check now. :)

Paul Sinnett
March 29th, 2005, 06:52 AM
Check now. :)

Thanks. I see now. :)

bored2k
March 29th, 2005, 06:58 AM
Thanks. I see now. :)
Kodak (http://img186.exs.cx/img186/6192/images4gu.jpg) moment : kassetra being uber nice, again :D

kassetra
March 29th, 2005, 06:59 AM
Thanks. I see now. :)

You're welcome! Thank you for asking thoughtful questions and being a part of the community. :)

kassetra
March 29th, 2005, 07:01 AM
Kodak (http://img186.exs.cx/img186/6192/images4gu.jpg) moment : kassetra being uber nice, again :D

LOL I am not! :-$
And if you say that too loud, no one will think I'm the big bad mod anymore. *snicker*

atilasendil
August 9th, 2005, 09:19 PM
OMG :roll:
there is still too much for me to read in these forums;
where have I been all the time ?
allright;
I have been using ubuntu for abouth a month now and my love for it constantly grows mainly because of the great community (and also ubuntu being a great distribution) ...
this topic is already closed I guess but I have 10 reputation points; and would that mean that actually 10 people gave positive points to my posts? or does everyone start at 10 ? :razz:
anyway;
love the community here:
came for the OS stayed for the OS+community

Respect

John E
February 8th, 2007, 11:56 AM
Seriously, there does seem to be a strong element of the blind leading the blind on these forums (or maybe the blind being led by the partially sighted!!)

I think it would be a good thing here to have a 'rating' system, as is common with other help forums - where users could add votes to the reputation of those who've helped them. I don't think I'd earn many votes myself but I'm sorry to say that I don't think many of the other contributers would either. Personally, I've found relatively few people here who are truly knowledgeable (although they do certainly exist). On the other hand, I've found a very large number of "guessers with good intentions". It would be nice to be able to sort out the wheat from the chaff.

darrenm
February 8th, 2007, 12:53 PM
The elite in terms of Ubuntu knowledge don't seem to have much time to hang around forums.

In fact: Edited to go into more depth...

There are a wide range of people on these fora. There are very few people anywhere that know everything about every piece of hardware that a certain distro can run on. there are lots of people that specialize in a few areas that they have experience in or they work with.

Me for example. I wouldn't know where to start helping you with your sound card but if you had a problem with a Postfix mail server or networking in Ubuntu and there isn't much I couldn't help you with. But then when people ask for something specific that not many people have experience with you inevitably can wait a long time until someone who can help sees the post, if it all. This makes most people complain that no-one answers their posts. Then when someone answers the post who may be able to point the right direction or get more info into the thread or just to bump they get labelled as "best guessers". I try to answer as many unanswered posts as possible but its very difficult to know whether you should respond at all because some people want either the correct, best help or none at all and others just like to be acknowledged even though no-one can answer their question at first.

No-one can be an expert at everything. Even people like the kernel maintainers wouldn't be able to tell you how to get your sound card working if they hadn't bought one themselves. Swings and roundabouts.

Frak
February 8th, 2007, 01:32 PM
Seriously, there does seem to be a strong element of the blind leading the blind on these forums (or maybe the blind being led by the partially sighted!!)

I think it would be a good thing here to have a 'rating' system, as is common with other help forums - where users could add votes to the reputation of those who've helped them. I don't think I'd earn many votes myself but I'm sorry to say that I don't think many of the other contributers would either. Personally, I've found relatively few people here who are truly knowledgeable (although they do certainly exist). On the other hand, I've found a very large number of "guessers with good intentions". It would be nice to be able to sort out the wheat from the chaff.
Well sometimes knowledge isn't available and even the greatest minds just guess. What you stated has nil to do with a rating system.

Brunellus
February 8th, 2007, 01:37 PM
Well sometimes knowledge isn't available and even the greatest minds just guess. What you stated has nil to do with a rating system.
I can't speak for everybody, but the level of technical knowledge varies more on these forums than in other places. I would be laughed out of #slackware on freenode, for instance.

None of that, of course, precludes you from seeking assistance in other fora. I do it all the time. Gentoo's wiki is particularly helpful

pay
February 8th, 2007, 01:54 PM
Seriously, there does seem to be a strong element of the blind leading the blind on these forums (or maybe the blind being led by the partially sighted!!)

I think it would be a good thing here to have a 'rating' system, as is common with other help forums - where users could add votes to the reputation of those who've helped them. I don't think I'd earn many votes myself but I'm sorry to say that I don't think many of the other contributers would either. Personally, I've found relatively few people here who are truly knowledgeable (although they do certainly exist). On the other hand, I've found a very large number of "guessers with good intentions". It would be nice to be able to sort out the wheat from the chaff.Some people might have ALOT of knowledge about lets say setting up an Ati video card, but they might give you the wrong answer about an nVidia video card... That doesn't mean the next thread that they answer will be wrong...

Ubuntu is probably one of the distros with the most "newbies", but that doesn't mean that there are alot of people that know what they are talking about that use Ubuntu, or in my case, use a different distro (gentoo) but enjoy these forums more.

John E
February 8th, 2007, 04:27 PM
Well we seem to be in agreement that much of the advice found on these forums is being offered by people who are "less expert" than contributors to other expert help forums. I guess what I'm suggesting is that the lack of a rating system is one of the reasons for that.

aysiu
February 8th, 2007, 05:05 PM
I think it would be a good thing here to have a 'rating' system, as is common with other help forums - where users could add votes to the reputation of those who've helped them. This idea has been tossed around among the staff, and it has some merits, but I think the general consensus is that it would ultimately become some kind of popularity contest instead of a valid measure of whose help is good. Besides, most people are not necessarily "good help" or "bad help." As someone else pointed out, even among users who have knowledge, that knowledge is often specialized. Someone may get a high rating for giving lots of good advice about partitioning and mounting partitions but know nothing about using ndiswrapper to set up wireless.

The issue doesn't really seem to be one of "I don't know whom to trust." It's more like "If I have this standard problem, I'll get help right away. If I have this obscure problem, I probably won't get help at all." And I dont' see how a rating system would alleviate that problem.

John E
February 8th, 2007, 08:02 PM
aysiu - it would alleviate the problem because, over time, you'd end up with a higher proportion of real experts. More experts would mean more questions getting answers. The biggest problem with this site is that if you don't get noticed within the first 5 or 6 minutes, you might as well give up.

Here's an example.... I'm a member of a popular programmer's forum called CodeGuru. When I first joined (4 or 5 years ago) they had a weird rating system where reputations were based entirely on the number of replies you posted. Therefore, people could gain fantastic reputations simply by spending all day in the General Chat forum and never helping anyone. Even worse, some contributers had managed to build up an enormous reputation by literally telling people they couldn't help them!! This was hugely demoralising to those contributers who were the proper, knowledgeable 'gurus'. Most people with programming problems either didn't get an answer - or if they did get an answer, it was from some bozo leading them up the garden path or (quite literally) telling them he didn't know the answer!!

A year or so after I joined CodeGuru, the rating system was changed to a voting system and guess what.... all those members who'd been building up false reputations for themselves promptly left. CodeGuru went from being a bit of a shambles to probably the best respected programmers site on the web.

I think the staff are anticipating a problem that won't happen in practice because the various experts will naturally gravitate towards the particular forum(s) that need (or show off) their area of expertise. There are enough different categories available here to circumvent the kind of problems that you described.

koenn
February 8th, 2007, 08:24 PM
The elite in terms of Ubuntu knowledge don't seem to have much time to hang around forums.
... because they're using Debian ?

Brunellus
February 8th, 2007, 08:28 PM
... because they're using Debian ?
probably. comp.os.linux.* ?

There are a number of fairly knowledgable users here. But, personally, I'd hate to have to deal with any forum where guys went around bragging about how 1337 they were. If I wanted that...well, I'd run Gentoo.

bodhi.zazen
February 8th, 2007, 09:11 PM
Interesting conversation.

IMO the Ubuntu forums are Ubuntu users helping other Ubuntu users. Nothing more, nothing less.

I like that there is not a "rating system" or "experts".

I keep going back and forth regarding even my bean count. I hate it when someone thinks I am somehow more knowledgeable because I have more beans, as we all know beans give you gas too :p

But hiding beans somehow seems arrogant :(


I'm in a tizzy about it :lolflag:


In the end I suspect most users post because they feel they can help or they enjoy the community spirit.

How can you put a rating on the community spirit ? I also fail to see how a rating increases the quality of advice, I mean what are you going to do, have some kind of standard or test before you can reply to a post ? [-(

And what is wrong with the system as it is now ? Is there something that is preventing "the experts" from posting ? :confused:

And who defines "expert" ? To a new user who has struggled for days whose problem I solve in 30 seconds I must be a guru. To a real guru I'm a joke. Regardless I have solved more problems then I cause (I think :) ) so what does that make me ?

A member of the Ubuntu community.

Adamant1988
February 8th, 2007, 09:16 PM
Interesting conversation.

IMO the Ubuntu forums are Ubuntu users helping other Ubuntu users. Nothing more, nothing less.

I like that there is not a "rating system" or "experts".

I keep going back and forth regarding even my bean count. I hate it when someone thinks I am somehow more knowledgeable because I have more beans, as we all know beans give you gas too :p

But hiding beans somehow seems arrogant :(


I'm in a tizzy about it :lolflag:


In the end I suspect most users post because they feel they can help or they enjoy the community spirit.

How can you put a rating on the community spirit ? I also fail to see how a rating increases the quality of advice, I mean what are you going to do, have some kind of standard or test before you can reply to a post ? [-(

And what is wrong with the system as it is now ? Is there something that is preventing "the experts" from posting ? :confused:


No, but there is something from keeping us (the users) from being able to pick out the well intentioned idiot from the experienced Linux veteran. There does need to be a way to mark people of experience and knowledge and set them apart (if only just in the help area).

Brunellus
February 8th, 2007, 09:20 PM
No, but there is something from keeping us (the users) from being able to pick out the well intentioned idiot from the experienced Linux veteran. There does need to be a way to mark people of experience and knowledge and set them apart (if only just in the help area).
At the end of the day, that's a moderation problem. I'm very active about shunting queries to appropriate sub-fora, which (I hope) mitigates the blind-leading-the-blind problem.

The most obvious such candidates for thread redirection are extremely obscure questions posted in Absolute Beginners.

Generally, I keep my eye out for unanswered threads that are on the third and fourth pages of forums, and bump or shift them as might be necessary.

aysiu
February 8th, 2007, 09:48 PM
I hate it when someone thinks I am somehow more knowledgeable because I have more beans

But hiding beans somehow seems arrogant :( I don't know why you think hiding beans is arrogant. I hide mine for the exact reason you've stated--because people often mistake me for being more knowledgeable than I am based on the number of times I've posted.

Some people with low bean counts hide them. Some people with high bean counts hide them. I don't see how arrogance figures into the picture.

I'm also not seeing what the relationship is between user ratings of helpfulness and there being better help. As far as I know, everyone here who does help helps as much as she can. No one should need the extra ego stroking of someone rating her as being helpful or a "professional" or an "expert."

If anyone needs that kind of affirmation to offer the best help she can, we don't want her on these forums. And if everyone is already giving the best help possible, then how would rating these people make the help better?

The only thing a user rating would "solve" (if the system actually worked) would be conflicting sets of advice (so-and-so tells me to do this, but someone else tells me to do something else... which advice should I follow?). It doesn't make the people who already helping more knowledgeable or more helpful.

koenn
February 8th, 2007, 10:03 PM
I don't know why you think hiding beans is arrogant.
Look at it this way : if people with high bean count hide it , a hidden bean count can suggest a high bean count.
Arrogance / fake modesty : "my bean count is so high I better hide it"
Bluff / Bragg : Even with hardly any beans, you can hide the bean count and possibly lead people to believe it's rather high

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disclaimer : This is only theory about how hidden beancounts could be perceived, Any similarity to actual posters is unintentional.

aysiu
February 8th, 2007, 10:07 PM
But that's circular logic.

You're already assuming the motive is boasting. So when someone does it with a high bean count, it's boasting. If someone does it with a low bean count, it's false boasting (bluffing).

It would make far more sense to argue that the motives vary as much as the users do. Some may do it to brag. Others may do it to not mislead people about knowledgeability. Maybe some people think bean counts are dumb and don't want to support that system. Maybe some people are just shy.

You can't build your life and actions around how someone could misperceive you. I think it makes sense to consider how your actions may come across as different from how you intended them, but you shouldn't constantly be second-guessing...

bodhi.zazen
February 8th, 2007, 10:13 PM
I don't know why you think hiding beans is arrogant. I hide mine for the exact reason you've stated--because people often mistake me for being more knowledgeable than I am based on the number of times I've posted.

Hi aysiu ;)

I don't know why I think that either :p

I agree, completely irrational. I never thought about that either ...

Now look what you've done to my operating system, rebooting now :D


The only thing a user rating would "solve" (if the system actually worked) would be conflicting sets of advice (so-and-so tells me to do this, but someone else tells me to do something else... which advice should I follow?). It doesn't make the people who already helping more knowledgeable or more helpful.

Perhaps that would help, but often with Linux there is often two (or more) ways of accomplishing any given task.

bodhi.zazen
February 8th, 2007, 10:37 PM
No, but there is something from keeping us (the users) from being able to pick out the well intentioned idiot from the experienced Linux veteran. There does need to be a way to mark people of experience and knowledge and set them apart (if only just in the help area).

I can see this is a serious concern for you.

I just do not see too many "well intentioned idiots". I see a thriving community.

(takes off rose tinted glasses ...)

Can you explain why this is a problem and what you feel the standards should be and how they should be applied ?

koenn
February 8th, 2007, 11:02 PM
But that's circular logic
true, bit it happens nonetheless. In the 80's (in Belgium, don't know about elsewhere), at some point, it became 'in' to wear certain brands of jeans, certain brands of sweaters, certain brands of jackets, and so on.
If you were part of the "elite" (the snobs), you'd were those brands, nothing else.
Then the 'wannebe's' started wearing those same brands as well, and in turn the elite would remove the labels, but still wear those 'elite' brands - kinda like saying "I'm so elite i don't need the labels to prove it".
I applied that line of thinking to the hidden bean count.
Other than that, yes, you're right - and beans don't really matter that much to me - at best I use them to get a rough time frame, like : 2 beans = just arrived here, 2000 beans = been on this forum for quite a while already.

m.musashi
February 9th, 2007, 01:37 AM
Hi everybody. My name is Jim and I'm a well intentioned idiot...

I don't know that much but I've been here long enough to learn a few things. I also have Ubuntu running on every computer I own (4) and even a few I don't own. I like this community and I try to help when I can - usually newer users as they usually have questions I can answer. I turned off my bean count for the exact reason aysiu mentioned. I only have 797 beans (just checked) but I figure that's enough for someone to think I know more than I do. When I offer help I usually try to explain my level of knowledge and depending on what the problem ends up being that I may or may not be albe to help. At the very least, I create some activity in the tread and keep it where others may find it. Of course, if I don't have a clue I don't post.

As for a rating system, what happens when a new user shows up that knows more than everyone else? How many posts do they have to make before they get a good rating? What happens if someone with average knowledge but who has been here a long time and has a high rating posts along side this new guru with a low score (s/he's still unproven)? It may not be that often of an occurance but I'm sure it would happen nonetheless. I think it would also discourage a lot of people from helping for fear of getting dinged or being ignorred. In the end, we are just a bunch of accidental friends helping one another.

Now, where we really need a rating system is all the "professional" support lines. I have yet to get someone knowledgable from Linksys, Comcast, MS, ... ,etc. I think we should be able to rate the degree of difficulty of our problem and then be routed to someone likely to be able to help.

PS what the heck happened to my firefox spell check? I can't write worth **** without that.

John E
February 9th, 2007, 08:49 AM
I keep going back and forth regarding even my bean count. I hate it when someone thinks I am somehow more knowledgeable because I have more beans, as we all know beans give you gas too :p
That's quite witty. I like it...! :)


And what is wrong with the system as it is now ? Is there something that is preventing "the experts" from posting ? :confused:
Well actually, yes - there probably is. I think that Adamant1988 put it very succinctly when he said that people looking for solutions need to be able to distinguish between the genuine experts and the well intentioned idiots.

Going back to my analogy with CodeGuru, this was the very problem which (in the early days) discouraged genuine experts from contributing. It was too difficult (or too easy - depending on your point of view) to build yourself a meaningful reputation. Many of the genuine experts were languishing at the bottom of the pile with apparently poor reputations. Conversely, those with the top-flight reputations were often just well meaning idiots with too much time on their hands.

Don't underestimate the discouraging effect that this can have on people with geunine, useful expertise. Whilst there's a lot to be said for community spirit, you can always cater for that by having "chit-chat" forums. CodeGuru has a chit-chat forum as well as other non-technical forums for people seeking job opportunities or wanting to chat about miscellaneous technologies or whatever. The key is to cater for both requirements by setting up some technical forums and some community forums. It doesn't need to be one or the other. You have a rating system for the technical forums and no rating system for the community forums. That way, everybody's happy!

FLPCGuy
February 9th, 2007, 07:51 PM
aysiu, m.musashi, and John E have all summarized my feelings on the rating issue well. If ratings can be misleading and have the potential to discourage or devalue someone's comments, why have them?

Either let everyone's comments stand on their own merit or at most have a button to quickly and privately add a vote of appreciation or agreement. Cliques are for kids. I don't think mature adults need the stroking or special badges to feel good about contributing.

Anyway, I never did find the checkmark/x icon rating thingy Kassetra referred to at the beginning of this thread.. All I see is a static colored icon and a report button.

xenmax
February 9th, 2007, 08:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bodhi.zazen http://ubuntuforums.org/images/uf/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=2125030#post2125030)
And what is wrong with the system as it is now ? Is there something that is preventing "the experts" from posting ? :confused:

Well actually, yes - there probably is. I think that Adamant1988 put it very succinctly when he said that people looking for solutions need to be able to distinguish between the genuine experts and the well intentioned idiots.

Going back to my analogy with CodeGuru, this was the very problem which (in the early days) discouraged genuine experts from contributing. It was too difficult (or too easy - depending on your point of view) to build yourself a meaningful reputation.
I have to agree with bodhi.zazen here: If there is no reputation system, how does it discourage the "experts" from posting?
Even in your analogy, you are basically saying that a reputation system (albeit a bad one at that) dissuaded the genuine 'experts' from posting. Following that reasoning, you get rid of the reputations - and the genuine experts would be back, won't they? ;)

matthew
February 9th, 2007, 09:25 PM
Anyway, I never did find the checkmark/x icon rating thingy Kassetra referred to at the beginning of this thread.. All I see is a static colored icon and a report button.That's because this thread is nearly two years old. I'm not sure why it was resurrected, but I'm going to close the thread so no one else gets confused.

The feature was only here for a few months...it was an experiment that failed. I'm sorry to disappoint anyone who was interested, but the feature isn't coming back.

Bluecircle
June 17th, 2007, 05:32 AM
Wouldn't it be a good idea to make a reputation system for users, so helpful users can be given rep or points for their tips and advice and people would lose points for trolling etc.? I've seen a lot of forums that do this. Are there any downsides?

kevinlyfellow
June 17th, 2007, 06:02 AM
I think Launchpad does something similar to this and calls it "Karma". Also our bean may reflect something like that, but I don't know how the beans work exactly. It may be a good idea, especially since there's so many people on these forums!

Bluecircle
June 17th, 2007, 06:15 AM
Yes launchpad has karma, but I'm talking about the forums. Bean only reflect post count, I'm suggesting a rep system that would reward people for helpful posts.

kevinlyfellow
June 17th, 2007, 06:24 AM
I know, I was just mentioning karma as an example to go by if they chose to implement the idea.

What I meant before (and came out horribly wrong) was the coffee-related rating. Like "Way too much Ubuntu" or "Quad shot Ubuntu". I don't think this has a direct relation to your bean counts, and I don't know if its a crude "karma" system. If someone knows, please share.

Edit: The more I think about it, the better this idea sounds :-)

Bluecircle
June 17th, 2007, 06:42 AM
I'm pretty sure the user title is directly related to bean count. I observe that people with 1-100ish posts have "5 cups of ubuntu" and so on. A good rep system would be where someone can add a positive or negative reputation point to a user and give a short message for the reason. An example would be:

http://www.v7n.com/forums/marketing-forum/announcement-read-me.html

See the green bar on the left side above the aim/yahoo buttons? That is the users reputation (very high). If you're logged in there are + and - buttons to give positive or negative reputation points.

floke
June 17th, 2007, 06:59 AM
This has been discussed by the forum staff and rejected - I think the view was that it would be divisive. But there's a thread about it somewhere,

jrusso2
June 17th, 2007, 07:09 AM
This has been discussed by the forum staff and rejected - I think the view was that it would be divisive. But there's a thread about it somewhere,

People would abuse this type of system as I have seen on other boards to take points away from people if they don't like what they say.

John.Michael.Kane
June 17th, 2007, 11:39 AM
This feature will not be added.

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=147750&highlight=rep

jdrodrig
August 16th, 2007, 01:30 AM
I got thinking how Yahoo Answers, Amazon Books Review, MS famous MVP, etc. etc. etc., are all "community eco-systems" that rank forum contributors by how useful other users find their responses....

do you think such forums work better (i.e. become a more useful tool to share knowledge and help other guys)? should we have "smart beans", "Medium beans" and "below average beans" instead of just "beans" as counters?

starcraft.man
August 16th, 2007, 01:43 AM
I think this has been brought up at least twice before while I've been here. The answer we came to each time was no. Mostly because number of beans does not = more experienced/knowledgeable. It just counts how many posts you answered (not indicating how difficult they were). Thusly there is nothing stopping a person with little to no beans from being a super intelligent power user. I've rarely if ever seen bad advice in response to a question, and when it was it usually got corrected quickly by someone who knew better.

jdrodrig
August 16th, 2007, 01:45 AM
if I understand your point, you mean that a single counter will not help measure knowledge..I agree.......but that bears the question, IF YOU HAD, such metric on others, do you think you will find more useful this forums....

the next question then, is how to construct such metric...

angryfirelord
August 16th, 2007, 01:49 AM
I think this quote says it all:

"It's not the number of posts you make, but the quality of each post that counts."

The problem is that even if we did have some type of "measuring system", people would complain that they aren't being ranked fairly and it would just be a mess in the end.

euler_fan
August 16th, 2007, 01:51 AM
I think this quote says it all:

"It's not the number of posts you make, but the quality of each post that counts."

The problem is that even if we did have some type of "measuring system", people would complain that they aren't being ranked fairly and it would just be a mess in the end.

+1

jdrodrig
August 16th, 2007, 01:52 AM
"they aren't being ranked fairly "...but why would then complain? it is not that they get paid or anything? you mean ego-driven behavior....?

if the rules are clear (e.g. if more than 50% of readers find your post useful you get a "superbean" ).... a simple algorithm can take care of the rest..

starcraft.man
August 16th, 2007, 01:55 AM
if I understand your point, you mean that a single counter will not help measure knowledge..I agree.......but that bears the question, IF YOU HAD, such metric on others, do you think you will find more useful this forums....

the next question then, is how to construct such metric...

Not sure I get what your saying... my point applies to any singular metric system that applies equally to all users (i.e. like the current bean tracker counts posts for all users equally).

If you mean if we had multiple metrics in place to rank people? i.e. ratings of volunteers by users helped, combined with an automated algorithm that drew in how active you were posting, as well as how often said posts were resolved (+ other factors). That'd be complicated and doubtful a 100% accurate, and as firelord said there would be people complaining about their ranking.


I think this quote says it all:

"It's not the number of posts you make, but the quality of each post that counts."

The problem is that even if we did have some type of "measuring system", people would complain that they aren't being ranked fairly and it would just be a mess in the end.

Yup, quote sums it up nice. I don't think any metric is needed, most users who respond to posts know their solution works or if not are trying to get more info or further diagnose. I've seen little if any posts that were malicious/hurtful to situation if said user followed them, and those were usually quickly corrected by more advanced members.

aysiu
August 16th, 2007, 02:01 AM
Not only has this been proposed in the past. It's actually been implemented, and it didn't work. Until further notice, the staff is not planning to revisit the ranking/rating of user responses or users.

Read this entire thread for more details. Here's a highlight:
That's because this thread is nearly two years old. I'm not sure why it was resurrected, but I'm going to close the thread so no one else gets confused.

The feature was only here for a few months...it was an experiment that failed. I'm sorry to disappoint anyone who was interested, but the feature isn't coming back.