Leaves as Solar Panels?

[earthpigg]

We can plug wires into a potato and get electricity. Not very much, but some.

Leaves are, essentially, solar panels. They convert sunlight into energy.

I am assuming it would require additional electronic equipment besides a few wires to derive electricity from a tree.

About how much would this equipment cost, and would it scale well?

[Sporkman]

We can plug wires into a potato and get electricity. Not very much, but some.

Leaves are, essentially, solar panels. They convert sunlight into energy.

I am assuming it would require additional electronic equipment besides a few wires to derive electricity from a tree.

About how much would this equipment cost, and would it scale well?


One way would be to burn maple syrup as fuel. Or use it to make ethanol.

[Ctrl-Alt-F1]

We can plug wires into a potato and get electricity. Not very much, but some.

Leaves are, essentially, solar panels. They convert sunlight into energy.

I am assuming it would require additional electronic equipment besides a few wires to derive electricity from a tree.

About how much would this equipment cost, and would it scale well?My uneducated guess is that if you were able to draw enough energy from a tree to do anything useful, it would kill the tree.

[NMFTM]

What if scientists could create some sort of biomechanical leaf/solar panel hybrid where the leaves were supplied with artificial nutrients (without the need for a tree) and their energy was funneled elsewhere and used as energy? Seems like something that'd be plausible within the next 150 years.

[lordyosch]

its probably not worth doing as photosynthesis is fairly inefficient. Leaves can only utilize certain wavelengths of light energy. I'm sure synthetic solar panels will work with a much broader spectrum of energy


Jay

[Sporkman]

What if scientists could create some sort of biomechanical leaf/solar panel hybrid where the leaves were supplied with artificial nutrients (without the need for a tree) and their energy was funneled elsewhere and used as energy? Seems like something that'd be plausible within the next 150 years.

http://gigaom.com/cleantech/15-algae-startups-bringing-pond-scum-to-fuel-tanks/

[pwnst*r]

Already being done with artificial "trees".

[juancarlospaco]

On Sovietic Russia they use Solar Panels as Leaves.

[MasterNetra]

its probably not worth doing as photosynthesis is fairly inefficient. Leaves can only utilize certain wavelengths of light energy. I'm sure synthetic solar panels will work with a much broader spectrum of energy


Jay

+1 Plant leaves evolved to supply the plant, not for suppling energy to homes and cities in general. But we could take what nature developed and develop it further to suit our needs.

[Paqman]

Leaves are, essentially, solar panels. They convert sunlight into energy.


But not a form of energy that's as useful to us as it is to a tree. A photovoltaic cell spits out electrons, a leaf makes sugars. To turn sugar into electrons you'd need to convert it a second time.

[Grenage]

Nuclear power, that's where it's at. Screw robo-trees.

[zer010]

One way would be to burn maple syrup as fuel. Or use it to make ethanol.

Syrup would produce ethanol, but wood has been used to produce methanol.
"Methanol is often called wood alcohol because it was once produced chiefly as a byproduct of the destructive distillation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destructive_distillation) of wood (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood)."

[kevin11951]

Here is some light reading:


"This recent breakthrough is part of a larger Department of Energy project on domesticating life at the cellular and molecular level. By directly interfacing synthetic devices with living organisms, we can harness the vast capabilities of life in photo- and chemical energy conversion, chemical synthesis, and self-assembly and repair," said Jay Groves, a faculty scientist at Berkeley Labs and professor of chemistry at University of California, Berkeley. "Cells have sophisticated ways of transferring electrons and electrical energy. However, just sticking an electrode into a cell is about as ineffective as sticking your finger into an electrical outlet when you are hungry. Instead, our strategy is based on tapping directly into the molecular electron transport chain used by cells to efficiently capture energy."

http://www.physorg.com/news/2010-10-scientists-electrical-link-cells.html

[inobe]

finally a thread i love.

[Strategist01]

finally a thread i love.

first we would have to figure out what uses the most energy than use that source to create it.

vehicles, 365 million on the road each day, place generators in each vehicle, when it's in motion it produces "more" energy then what it consumes, special tires to transfer that energy through the pavement using special slip resistant contact strips within each lane.

the worlds energy crisis solved.

Well, then you would have to have a solar panel or some other form of renewable energy on the roof or something like that, as you can't get more energy out of a system than what you put in. Energy is cannot be created nor destroyed, only changed from one form to another.

[inobe]

Well, then you would have to have a solar panel or some other form of renewable energy on the roof or something like that, as you can't get more energy out of a system than what you put in. Energy is cannot be created nor destroyed, only changed from one form to another.

well since you caught my edit i will bend.

you misread my post, please read again.

[Strategist01]

well since you caught my edit i will bend.

you misread my post, please read again.

I was thinking in terms of renewable energy, as to now use the petrol (or batteries, which are still charged by fossil fuel really) as a generator source would drive up consumption remarkably. Unless we had a system for converting all of the usable energy into another form, that would be impossible. You'd need an external source to make it work w/o breaking your bank.

[oldsoundguy]

perpetual energy is a physical impossibility .. and many of the suggestions posted suggest that it is not. WRONG!!

There will always be a margin of inefficiency in anything that converts one form of energy into another.

Right now, the newest developments in solar cells put the efficiency at 80%. (company is just down the road from me .. stimulus dollars at work!) ... but, because if initial costs, the dollars per watt are still TOO high for mass usage.

Wind energy development has hit a major snag as it has been found to NOT be friendly to the native wildlife and the bird kills are rising.

So EVERYTHING has it's hidden costs.

Best way is to CONSERVE energy FIRST.

[inobe]

I was thinking in terms of renewable energy, as to now use the petrol (or batteries, which are still charged by fossil fuel really) as a generator source would drive up consumption remarkably. Unless we had a system for converting all of the usable energy into another form, that would be impossible. You'd need an external source to make it work w/o breaking your bank.

that's not true, the average vehicles can spend petrol or electric, however the amount of energy an electric vehicle consumes is far less then what it can produce, even to the extent that whats produced a fraction will be consumed pending on the onboard generator, speed limit and amounts of vehicles on the road, this energy is continuous and renewable.

your average generator connected to a 8 horsepower gasoline engine produces 240 volts ac @ 15 amps.... which is non renewable, a car running on fossil fuels with an alternator that only produces 12 volts dc at 750 rpm, this vehicle could also have a generator connected to it's drive train and produce 240 volts ac.

edit: for clarification the generator will not be useful if it's source is an engine, it must be a vehicles motion and weight, some physics involved.

[Dustin2128]

Yes.

[Ranko Kohime]

Well, then you would have to have a solar panel or some other form of renewable energy on the roof or something like that, as you can't get more energy out of a system than what you put in. Energy is cannot be created nor destroyed, only changed from one form to another.
This is true, but internal combustion engines vary between 10% and 40% thermal efficiency, on average. They are most efficient at peak load, which, paradoxically, only occurs when the go pedal is being pressed into the floor. Adding extra load to the engine in the form of a generator would reduce individual vehicle fuel economy, but overall consumption-to-output efficiency.

There are differing levels of conversion efficiency, is what I'm getting at.

[Ranko Kohime]

perpetual energy is a physical impossibility .. and many of the suggestions posted suggest that it is not. WRONG!!

There will always be a margin of inefficiency in anything that converts one form of energy into another.

Right now, the newest developments in solar cells put the efficiency at 80%. (company is just down the road from me .. stimulus dollars at work!) ... but, because if initial costs, the dollars per watt are still TOO high for mass usage.

Wind energy development has hit a major snag as it has been found to NOT be friendly to the native wildlife and the bird kills are rising.

So EVERYTHING has it's hidden costs.

Best way is to CONSERVE energy FIRST.
That's quite a feat... So we'll get ~1,100 watts per square meter, thereabouts? Sounds good to me, I could really use that on my planned all-electric RV.

Also, birds dying: I, DON'T, CARE. That's 1. largely a by-product of an old design, which is no longer manufactured, and; 2. not that big of a deal anyway. Billions of birds fly south every winter, only a few thousand don't make it. I suspect more are killed by cats yearly.

I know of one crow who had to have had a sore flight after my dog decided to play with him. :mrgreen:

[seenthelite]

What's the date?, is it April the 1st. You can not be serious.
(I know just a little bit about electricity generation and distribution).

[Ranko Kohime]

What's the date?, is it April the 1st. You can not be serious.
(I know just a little bit about electricity generation and distribution).
Well, in theory, it's a legitimate idea. It just doesn't pan out well.

[inobe]

Adding extra load to the engine in the form of a generator would reduce individual vehicle fuel economy, but overall consumption-to-output efficiency.


who typed that it would be connected to "an engine" and why are you quoting someone else's post :-\"

[Ranko Kohime]

who typed that it would be connected to "an engine" and why are you quoting someone else's post :-\"
I was quoting Strategist's quote of your edited post.

Holy Christ, reading that again, makes it seem as if none of us knew what the hell the other was talking about. :lolflag:

[WinterMadness]

can you run things off of sugar? because thats the energy plants create. i dont know if its feasible.

[Paqman]

can you run things off of sugar? because thats the energy plants create. i dont know if its feasible.

Sure, you can run cells. If you want to run a machine you could burn it. Or more likely turn it into bioethanol then burn that.

[Sutekh849]

The one I've been following is the concept of osmotic power. So simple and relatively easy to implement!
The real thing that would solve our energy crisis would be nuclear fusion of course; I hope they find a way of making it self sustaining soon.

[TNT1]

Leaves are, essentially, solar panels. They convert sunlight into energy.



Oil lamp...

The light of other days...

The sun grows the plants. The plants express essential oils. The oils fire the lamps - giving back the light of other days... Stored, converted, liberated sunshine of years past.

[the8thstar]

The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics is our biggest enemy here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy)

Whatever system we use, there is always a risk of wasting a substantial part of the energy we are trying to channel into work.

[earthpigg]

Oil lamp...

The light of other days...

The sun grows the plants. The plants express essential oils. The oils fire the lamps - giving back the light of other days... Stored, converted, liberated sunshine of years past.

i love how you put that.

[Jeff121]

Today everyone is looking to save money. So people are starting to install solar panels because of the tremendous increase in electricity prices. It is always advisable for one to install solar panel which also helps to save resources and nowadays even the government is giving subsidies for the installation of solar panels.

[|{urse]

If everyone treated their own human waste in their own backyards and harvested the subsequent methane for fuel then we'd all soon be freaking out about skyrocketing food costs and the poor would die of starvation instead of cancer from pollutants, "green" is good but sadly it's only for those who can afford time for it. Anything that you could consider important for life invariably becomes very expensive. Cheaper, less "green" methods are preferred by those who wish to continue living and feeding their children. This isn't even accounting for lazy people who just don't care about the environment who will do whatever they feel like doing regardless of the global cost.

My point is, regardless of how we fuel our contraptions, Earth is going to make it just fine.. humanity, on the other hand, is completely doomed.

[GabrielYYZ]

If everyone treated their own human waste in their own backyards and harvested the subsequent methane for fuel then we'd all soon be freaking out about skyrocketing food costs and the poor would die of starvation instead of cancer from pollutants, "green" is good but sadly it's only for those who can afford time for it. Anything that you could consider important for life invariably becomes very expensive. Cheaper, less "green" methods are preferred by those who wish to continue living and feeding their children. This isn't even accounting for lazy people who just don't care about the environment who will do whatever they feel like doing regardless of the global cost.

My point is, regardless of how we fuel our contraptions, Earth is going to make it just fine.. humanity, on the other hand, is completely doomed.

if George Carlin was alive, he'd approve of this message. :P

[Evil-Ernie]

I am reasonably optimistic that although we have done a lot of damage we can make a recovery from it. We as humans are amazing innovators when you look at what we have achieved in science, industry and medicine like eradicating deadly diseases, creation of the computer, flying, the internet (list goes on and on). Unfortunately this progress has unwitting put us in the situation we are in now with our consumption of resources. However already ideas are coming through that could potentially save the planet, all it takes is one big breakthrough or the collective use of the technology we have available.

Personally I feel unless we have the major breakthrough we will have our hand forced when people really start dying in massive numbers and infrastructures begin to collapse. Then in the stark reality of survival we will find a way or die, I suspect when the issues come to that crunch point we as humanity will do whatever to keep us going as a race.

[ssam]

Wind energy development has hit a major snag as it has been found to NOT be friendly to the native wildlife and the bird kills are rising.


cars kill more birds. cats kill more birds. burning fossil fuels kills more birds.

http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/withouthotair/c10/page_63.shtml
http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/withouthotair/c10/page_64.shtml
http://dx.doi.org/10.1016%2Fj.enpol.2009.02.011
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_effects_of_wind_power#Birds

[Paqman]

"green" is good but sadly it's only for those who can afford time for it. Anything that you could consider important for life invariably becomes very expensive.

This is a common misconception. A lot of green changes save money, as they're often focussed on saving energy. Since energy prices are only likely to rise so long as we're relying primarily on finite resources of fossil fuels, going green is going to get more and more financially attractive. Break even points for a lot of home energy saving measures are pretty good.

Besides, it's not the home consumers who have the power to make the really important green changes. That'll be done in the energy sector, and it'll be done as much for financial and security reasons as for ecological ones. Sticking solar panels on your roof may make you feel green, but until the power plants and distribution system have gone green (or at least, low carbon) it won't make much difference overall.

[dh04000]

In my opinion, as a scientist, algae biofuel and solarthermo are the future of our energy production.

Algae can be grown in tanks in "waste land", such as US gov. controlled deserts and other national lands. No need to convert needed farm land into energy production, use un-wanted lands. Once grown in tanks, the algae can be killed and the oil, which floats to the surface sucked off. The nutrient from the dead algae is was fulls the next generation. So this would be an essential zero waste production. The bio-oil can be converted to diesel, which we already have the engines and infrastructure to handle. This will handle our cars, trucks, planes, and trains.

Our homes will be powered by solar thermo. Again, using waste lands, we can use solar-themo salt power plants to produce energy 24hrs a day. http://green.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/03/02/storing-solar-power-in-salt/ Providing out home electricity needs, with wind power being used where appropriate. Again, this system has zero waste, no emissions, nothing.

Neither of these plants produce waste, or require valuable land or resources to operate and can be deployed today on our current infrastructure.

[renzokuken]

opening statement of my PhD thesis in photovoltaics.....

"enough solar energy hits the earths surface every hour to supply the demand of the whole planet for an entire year"

trouble is current PV cells are only around 10-15% efficient on scale up, and cost way too much.

....and to answer the original questions about leaves and potatoes.....the potato generates a current through an electrochemical reaction involving its starches. photosynthesis in leaves stores/converts energy chemically, and so not in a way we can directly tap into with a couple of wires

[dh04000]

opening statement of my PhD thesis in photovoltaics.....

"enough solar energy hits the earths surface every hour to supply the demand of the whole planet for an entire year"

trouble is current PV cells are only around 10-15% efficient on scale up, and cost way too much.

....and to answer the original questions about leaves and potatoes.....the potato generates a current through an electrochemical reaction involving its starches. photosynthesis in leaves stores/converts energy chemically, and so not in a way we can directly tap into with a couple of wires


Very true, I suggest have addressed that instead of put my own rant up, lol. Whats your opinion on solarthermo systems like the salt and Stirling engine designs? I think the salt one can act as the MAIN source of power 24hr, with stirling systems acting in addition to provide peak hours, such as during th day when they actually work.

Also, I recently was accepted to a PhD program in biochemistry.

Yay for higher education!

[Paqman]

biofuel and solarthermo are the future of our energy production.


They'll be a part of the energy mix, to be sure, but not the whole picture. Algal biofuel could be used by the transport sector, but that only makes up a part of the demand. Solar systems in general vary in effectiveness with location, and heating is only a part of domestic energy consumption. Other technologies like ground source heat pumps should start seeing more use for home heating (although they can't easily be retrofitted, so are more likely to be seen in new homes).

Some people think we're headed for an all-electric future. Industry, transport, everything. That would certainly help out by pushing the solutions onto the supply and distribution side, where there are much bigger opportunities for efficiency.

[wewantutopia]

They'll be a part of the energy mix, to be sure, but not the whole picture. Algal biofuel could be used by the transport sector, but that only makes up a part of the demand. Solar systems in general vary in effectiveness with location, and heating is only a part of domestic energy consumption. Other technologies like ground source heat pumps should start seeing more use for home heating (although they can't easily be retrofitted, so are more likely to be seen in new homes).

Some people think we're headed for an all-electric future. Industry, transport, everything. That would certainly help out by pushing the solutions onto the supply and distribution side, where there are much bigger opportunities for efficiency.

Solar thermal, while awesome for space/water heating and cooling (solar absorption chillers), can also be used to generate electricity. (i presum that is what dh04000 was talking about)

Solar collectors are used to heat a working fluid (molten salt in this case) to something like700 deg c. The salt then boils water to generate electricity via a turbine like they do with coal/nuke. The salt is stored in super insulated "containers" allowing electricity generation well after sundown.

Here is an example: http://www.nrel.gov/csp/solarpaces/project_detail.cfm/projectID=31

I think solar thermal is way over looked. PV is the "sexy" tech.

I think they could couple solar thermal plants with desalination plants. They could collect the condensate as it would be fresh water. Would be great for North Africa and the Mid East.

I've been bringing our 1920 craftsman style bungalow up to near super insulated standards (had NO insulation). Planning on heating it with 3 30 tube evacuated solar collectors and radiant heat floors. Also planning on using ground loops for cooling.

Man I love this stuff!!!

[Paqman]

Solar thermal, while awesome for space/water heating and cooling (solar absorption chillers), can also be used to generate electricity. (i presum that is what dh04000 was talking about)


Not to the degree that it would allow you to go totally off-grid (or be a net exporter). We just don't have solar systems with efficiency high enough to satisfy a household's entire future energy demand from what we could realistically install on their roof. The theoretical maximums are surprisingly high, even at quite northerly or southerly latitudes, but we can only harness a tiny fraction of the available solar energy.

Microgeneration is great stuff, i'd like to start myself if I could, but it's not the solution to meeting domestic electricity demand. We're still going to need the power grid.

Besides, domestic use is only a part of the pie. In most countries it's about 1/3 to 1/4 of total energy consumption.

[wewantutopia]

Not to the degree that it would allow you to go totally off-grid (or be a net exporter). We just don't have solar systems with efficiency high enough to satisfy a household's entire future energy demand from what we could realistically install on their roof. The theoretical maximums are surprisingly high, even at quite northerly or southerly latitudes, but we can only harness a tiny fraction of the available solar energy.

Microgeneration is great stuff, i'd like to start myself if I could, but it's not the solution to meeting domestic electricity demand. We're still going to need the power grid.

Besides, domestic use is only a part of the pie. In most countries it's about 1/3 to 1/4 of total energy consumption.


You should check out my link.

The Solar Thermal with molten salt I was talking about is a utility style plant that has the potential for baseload generation.

[Paqman]

You should check out my link.

The Solar Thermal with molten salt I was talking about is a utility style plant that has the potential for baseload generation.

Yeah, there was a good article about it in New Scientist (I think?) a while back. Might have been in the IET's magazine.

It's good to see technologies like this developing, and they may make a reasonable contribution in some parts of the world. I suspect however, that you'll see them supplementing current technologies rather than replacing them for the foreseeable future.