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View Full Version : Ubuntu really needs to ....



Storm Rider
October 19th, 2010, 12:28 AM
..... make dvd the default installation media. My wish list would include a choice of desktops during the installation. Ubuntu with KDE would be great, Kubuntu just isn't cutting it and my favorite KDE apps, K3B and Amarok just don't work well in Ubuntu.

What do you think?

hhh
October 19th, 2010, 01:06 AM
No. It's fantastic that Ubuntu can be installed via a 1G USB drive. Besides Kubuntu, there are PLENTY of KDE based distros.

Simian Man
October 19th, 2010, 01:12 AM
My wish list would include a choice of desktops during the installation. Ubuntu with KDE would be great, Kubuntu just isn't cutting it and my favorite KDE apps, K3B and Amarok just don't work well in Ubuntu.

If that's true, then just throwing all of those packages into a .iso isn't going to help anything. Most distros do include a DVD option, maybe consider trying one of them.

TBABill
October 19th, 2010, 01:17 AM
For some, particularly in less developed nations, media like blank DVD's may be harder to afford or get than blank CDs. They also cost more so for Cononical it would raise the costs of free CD distribution. I'd like to have choices like that as well, but they're already in the repo if you want to try other DE's or apps. Bandwidth is probably a big issue in those locations also, so not as compelling an argument there if they also cannot obtain the bandwidth to install different DE's from the repos.

I like the idea of more available at install (like openSUSE does), but practicality may be driving the decision not to.

juancarlospaco
October 19th, 2010, 01:45 AM
Just remember the Unix Philosophy:
" Small Applications that does One thing "

Make the applications optimized, minimalistic, faster, refined, thats the way.
:)

Simian Man
October 19th, 2010, 02:10 AM
I like the idea of more available at install (like openSUSE does), but practicality may be driving the decision not to.
Those arguments of yours are reasons not to have a DVD as the primary means of distribution. Most distros do offer a DVD in addition to live CD images. The reason Ubuntu only has one Live CD is because they don't want to confuse the beginners they are targetting with choices. This is also why they don't allow the other desktops to use the Ubuntu name.


Just remember the Unix Philosophy:
" Small Applications that does One thing "

Make the applications optimized, minimalistic, faster, refined, thats the way.
:)

That has nothing to do with the issue at hand. It's not about making the packages bigger, but adding more of them :).

Mr. Picklesworth
October 19th, 2010, 02:41 AM
That has nothing to do with the issue at hand. It's not about making the packages bigger, but adding more of them :).

Hence increasing the complexity of the package we deal with here, which is Ubuntu Desktop Edition ;)

Rasa1111
October 19th, 2010, 02:46 AM
i think I disagree with the entire post. :)
and i think the proper points have been made others. ;)

whiskeylover
October 19th, 2010, 02:52 AM
You can still download the DVD iso. Why do people get so hung up on "default"?

cascade9
October 19th, 2010, 02:57 AM
Those arguments of yours are reasons not to have a DVD as the primary means of distribution. Most distros do offer a DVD in addition to live CD images. The reason Ubuntu only has one Live CD is because they don't want to confuse the beginners they are targetting with choices. This is also why they don't allow the other desktops to use the Ubuntu name.

There are ubuntu DVDs, and AFAIK they do run as a live system.


The combined install/live DVD

http://es.archive.ubuntu.com/cdimage/releases/lucid/release/

http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/dvd/current/

I'm guessing that one of the reasons why the DVD options are (at least in part) hidden is to save canonical on bandwidth.....other reasons are possible, but a lot of them have a high cynicism count LOL

NMFTM
October 19th, 2010, 03:39 PM
For some, particularly in less developed nations, media like blank DVD's may be harder to afford or get than blank CDs.
Almost every other Linux distro is using the DVD format to publish their ISO's for. It's the main reason why GIMP isn't included by default and the number of screensavers has been slashed to make room for new things. Eventually they're going to have to get with it. That would be like Microsoft distributing Windows 95 on a series of floppy disks because maybe not everyone had a CD drive on their computer.

They also cost more so for Cononical it would raise the costs of free CD distribution.
I'd wager that probably the overwhelming majority of people who request free CD's are abusing the service. I know a guy who lives with his Mom and has the money to buy blank CD's and was too lazy to install from a USB drive, so he ordered free CD's instead.

Simian Man
October 19th, 2010, 03:48 PM
There are ubuntu DVDs, and AFAIK they do run as a live system.

Interesting. Do you know what those images come with? Extra applications? Gnome and KDE?

hhh
October 19th, 2010, 04:00 PM
Interesting. Do you know what those images come with? Extra applications? Gnome and KDE?http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/dvd/current/
The contents are listed in the manifest (a LOT of language support).

hhh
October 19th, 2010, 04:09 PM
Almost every other Linux distro is using the DVD format to publish their ISO's for.
Huh?

http://fedoraproject.org/get-fedora
http://www2.mandriva.com/downloads/one/
http://www.pclinuxos.com/?page_id=180

CharlesA
October 19th, 2010, 04:20 PM
The only distro that I know of that requires a dvd is Knoppix and Backtrack.

Then again, I don't do much distro hopping...

armageddon08
October 19th, 2010, 04:26 PM
You want KDE, you want openSUSE. You want DVD installer, openSUSE is GOD! :)

Simian Man
October 19th, 2010, 04:39 PM
http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/dvd/current/
The contents are listed in the manifest (a LOT of language support).
Seems like nothing extra but languages. Disappointing.


Huh?

Fedora, Mandriva and OpenSuse all offer DVD installs packed with lots of applications. They also offer live CDs.

kio_http
October 19th, 2010, 04:49 PM
Firstly most KDE developers are KDE devlopers so you will naturally get a similar kde in Kubuntu as that released on kde.org

Secondly Kubuntu's policy is not to delete default KDE settings. So if you try to create more themes etc in Kubuntu, you will realise that the distro no longer fits on a cd (over 700mb). This is because of the way Ubuntu live cd's are designed unlike other distros which have an advantage here.

CraigPaleo
October 19th, 2010, 05:10 PM
There's an Ubuntu derivative called Ultimate Edition (http://ultimateedition.info/)

It comes with the following all on one DVD.

* KDE
* XFCE
* Gnome
* LXDE
* Openbox

johntaylor1887
October 19th, 2010, 08:07 PM
K3B and Amarok just don't work well in Ubuntu.

K3B and Amarok work just fine for me in Ubuntu, and I'm sure most people would agree.

norm7446
October 19th, 2010, 09:40 PM
Cost. A cake of 100 CD's 7.99. A cake of 50 DVD's 7.00. Simple maths.

http://shop.canonical.com/product_info.php?products_id=746

red_Marvin
October 19th, 2010, 09:57 PM
I'd say that when the time comes to deprecate cd's the step all the way to thumbdrives should be made, instead of stopping by dvd's that suffer the same problems as all optical media.

norm7446
October 19th, 2010, 10:04 PM
I'd say that when the time comes to deprecate cd's the step all the way to thumbdrives should be made, instead of stopping by dvd's that suffer the same problems as all optical media.

Why not bypass thumb drives as well and just go for a Cloud download and minimal install.

red_Marvin
October 19th, 2010, 10:10 PM
@norm7446
I guess that would work for me, but I already use arch linux which only provides a base system in the image.
Ubuntu's philosophy seems to be to include a little more in the offline part of the install, in order to cater for those who may have only intermittent internet connections.

Storm Rider
October 20th, 2010, 12:14 AM
If that's true, then just throwing all of those packages into a .iso isn't going to help anything. Most distros do include a DVD option, maybe consider trying one of them.

Obviously throwing apps into an .iso isn't going to help anything. As for trying something else, that's exactly what I end up doing .... I've installed every Ubuntu release since day 1 (Warty 4.1 I think) only to go back to openSuse or Fedora.

There's no reason to think Ubuntu developers are not able to make a distro with more than one properly working desktop. I suspect they have at least as many resources as other distro's.

Storm Rider
October 20th, 2010, 12:16 AM
No. It's fantastic that Ubuntu can be installed via a 1G USB drive. Besides Kubuntu, there are PLENTY of KDE based distros.

It's nice to have that option but Linux has to much to offer to make a leading distro without options for other DE's.

Storm Rider
October 20th, 2010, 12:18 AM
For some, particularly in less developed nations, media like blank DVD's may be harder to afford or get than blank CDs. They also cost more so for Cononical it would raise the costs of free CD distribution. I'd like to have choices like that as well, but they're already in the repo if you want to try other DE's or apps. Bandwidth is probably a big issue in those locations also, so not as compelling an argument there if they also cannot obtain the bandwidth to install different DE's from the repos.

I like the idea of more available at install (like openSUSE does), but practicality may be driving the decision not to.

Your're probably right about bandwidth. I mailed an openSuSE DVD to someone in South Africa because the download would just about wipe out their monthly bandwidth.

Storm Rider
October 20th, 2010, 12:22 AM
There are ubuntu DVDs, and AFAIK they do run as a live system.



http://es.archive.ubuntu.com/cdimage/releases/lucid/release/

http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/dvd/current/

I'm guessing that one of the reasons why the DVD options are (at least in part) hidden is to save canonical on bandwidth.....other reasons are possible, but a lot of them have a high cynicism count LOL

What is contained in the DVD images? More apps, DE or just languages?

Storm Rider
October 20th, 2010, 12:24 AM
You want KDE, you want openSUSE. You want DVD installer, openSUSE is GOD! :)

This comment is a waste of time..... are you not able to keep up?

Storm Rider
October 20th, 2010, 12:31 AM
What is contained in the DVD images? More apps, DE or just languages?

Sorry, found the answer in other posts.

JBAlaska
October 20th, 2010, 12:38 AM
There's an Ubuntu derivative called Ultimate Edition (http://ultimateedition.info/)

It comes with the following all on one DVD.

* KDE
* XFCE
* Gnome
* LXDE
* Openbox

+1 for Ultimate Edition!

Storm Rider
October 20th, 2010, 01:27 AM
+1 for Ultimate Edition!

Yeah, looks it's worth looking at :)

cammin
October 20th, 2010, 02:36 AM
That would be like Microsoft distributing Windows 95 on a series of floppy disks because maybe not everyone had a CD drive on their computer.

It was a valid concern back then, which is why they sold it on floppies as well as CD.

hhh
October 20th, 2010, 05:53 AM
It's nice to have that option but Linux has to much to offer to make a leading distro without options for other DE's.
What are you talking about? First of all, part of the reason Ubuntu is a leading distro is that they went with the simple and functional Gnome desktop. Second, just because Kubuntu didn't work out for you on your current hardware doesn't mean it's a bad respin, it works great for thousands of users. Third, look at you opening statement... you want Ubuntu to almost double it's install size so you can have KDE and your 2 favorite apps?

Fourth, what do you mean there aren't other options? You can use the Psychocats guide to add KDE or Xfce or LXDE or all three to your Ubuntu system. Google "ubuntu kde" and see how many guides there are. You can use urukrama's guide and/or the Ubuntu community wiki page on Openbox to install that window manager as a stand alone desktop. Other people have successfully used Compiz as a stand alone desktop, or PekWM, or Fluxbox, or other window managers that I barely know about.

Canonical makes their decisions on how to release Ubuntu, no amount of Cafe arguing will change those decisions.

Finally, armageddon08's statement is not a waste of time, openSuse KDE Edition is exactly what you're looking for according to the statement I quoted at the start of this rant... a major community driven Linux distribution with a DVD installer featuring KDE and a ton of software and options for other DEs. But Ubuntu is that too, except it features Gnome and fits on a CD.

Storm Rider
October 27th, 2010, 11:59 PM
What are you talking about? First of all, part of the reason Ubuntu is a leading distro is that they went with the simple and functional Gnome desktop.
Second, just because Kubuntu didn't work out for you on your current hardware doesn't mean it's a bad respin, it works great for thousands of users. Third, look at you opening statement... you want Ubuntu to almost double it's install size so you can have KDE and your 2 favorite apps?

Fourth, what do you mean there aren't other options? You can use the Psychocats guide to add KDE or Xfce or LXDE or all three to your Ubuntu system. Google "ubuntu kde" and see how many guides there are. You can use urukrama's guide and/or the Ubuntu community wiki page on Openbox to install that window manager as a stand alone desktop. Other people have successfully used Compiz as a stand alone desktop, or PekWM, or Fluxbox, or other window managers that I barely know about.

Canonical makes their decisions on how to release Ubuntu, no amount of Cafe arguing will change those decisions.

Finally, armageddon08's statement is not a waste of time, openSuse KDE Edition is exactly what you're looking for according to the statement I quoted at the start of this rant... a major community driven Linux distribution with a DVD installer featuring KDE and a ton of software and options for other DEs. But Ubuntu is that too, except it features Gnome and fits on a CD.

To answer your points:
1st - Simple and functional is fine but most things don't stay "leading" without broadening their base.

2nd - I've not had a version of Kubuntu work as good as Ubuntu on any of my hardware set ups "ever". It is not as solid as Ubuntu which is why I'd like to see Ubuntu offer KDE.

3rd - I'm fine with Ubuntu being double the size but realize lots of folks don't have a 15MB internet connection with no bandwidth limits. So go ahead and keep the size down by having separate Gnome and KDE iso's. It's not just a couple apps, I prefer KDE.... but also like Ubuntu's packager and easy of use etc.

4th - thanks, I hadn't heard of physchocats guide. After I post this message, I'll overwrite openSuSE, reinstall Ubuntu and look for the guide. I'll let you know what I think.

Lastly, keep an open mind. I'm not trying to start a flame war, just an open discussion.

Be back later.

:)

Storm Rider
October 29th, 2010, 12:16 AM
I'm back and can say that I did not honestly try KDE Ubuntu very long. I think Ubuntu works great, fast and always solid. KUbuntu is below par.

I usually have a couple different OS's installed. Posting from Sabayon atm. I find it one of the most fun distros to use. Each to their own I guess.

GenBattle
October 29th, 2010, 03:55 AM
Personally I prefer a 700MB cap on Ubuntu CDs. Here in New Zealand the internet caps are horribly low. At the moment i'm on 10GB a month (the max i can get with my provider is 20GB a month), so a DVD would be 50% of my cap. This is one of the main reasons i have taken my time trying out PC-BSD; a 4Gb download is just unreasonable for those of us who live outside the US and other privileged countries with high caps.

Spice Weasel
October 30th, 2010, 01:10 AM
Personally I prefer a 700MB cap on Ubuntu CDs. Here in New Zealand the internet caps are horribly low. At the moment i'm on 10GB a month (the max i can get with my provider is 20GB a month), so a DVD would be 50% of my cap. This is one of the main reasons i have taken my time trying out PC-BSD; a 4Gb download is just unreasonable for those of us who live outside the US and other privileged countries with high caps.

Order a DVD.

Primefalcon
October 30th, 2010, 02:52 AM
Immensely disagree, I don't wont to have to download a whole dvd image every 6 months..... just noo!

Spice Weasel
October 30th, 2010, 12:05 PM
Immensely disagree, I don't wont to have to download a whole dvd image every 6 months..... just noo!

Order a DVD.

http://www.osdisc.com/

Khakilang
October 31st, 2010, 08:19 AM
Personally I prefer a 700MB cap on Ubuntu CDs. Here in New Zealand the internet caps are horribly low. At the moment i'm on 10GB a month (the max i can get with my provider is 20GB a month), so a DVD would be 50% of my cap. This is one of the main reasons i have taken my time trying out PC-BSD; a 4Gb download is just unreasonable for those of us who live outside the US and other privileged countries with high caps.

You're lucky. A DVD download will kill my caps. I prefer 700MB CD and choose what I want to install later on. Or maybe order a DVD instead and save all the headache.

darkhelmetchris
October 31st, 2010, 09:16 AM
...be sold in stores. At virtually any cost. I don't believe it will catch the eye of the masses until that happens. Yes, I know, it's free for everyone. I didn't say that it couldn't still be available for download for free; of course that should always be the case. But, if the average person walked in to a store, to the rack of operating system choices, and could compare, they might pay $5.00 or $10.00 for an Ubuntu CD in a little box, it would certainly gain popularity (being easy to grab) and respect (because it was paid for). How many times have you thrown away something you got for free after "playing" with it for 5 minutes? I'm not saying that you should charge for Ubuntu. Certainly not. However, charging for a box, a disc, and the costs of putting that together, is quite reasonable. Heck, I love getting Ubuntu for free. But, if I could walk in to my local computer shop and get the spankin' new Ubuntu for a few bucks, instead of waiting 2 hours to download it, I probably would, and I certainly wouldn't mind giving up a few bucks for that convenience.

How many of you have heard these in direct relation to Ubuntu? I sure have.
"You don't get anything for free." -- we all know this isn't true. So why not make the nay-sayers pay for it? Joke's on them
"You get what you pay for." -- same reasoning
"Well, it didn't cost me anything to try. It was too weird so I threw it away." -- but they bought Vista
"I didn't want Windows anymore, so I switched to a Mac." -- they paid for pretty Mac, with Linux under the hood

Or these:
"I just downloaded an ISO file of Ubuntu, burned it to a CD, and once I saw the live version running, I was hooked and installed it." -- true, but your neighbor that "doesn't know much about computers" can do that by themself? What if they saw the disc for $10 bucks?

You get the idea.

Spice Weasel
October 31st, 2010, 12:18 PM
"I didn't want Windows anymore, so I switched to a Mac." -- they paid for pretty Mac, with Linux under the hood


Please explain how Mac OSX has Linux under the hood.

Half-Left
October 31st, 2010, 12:44 PM
Please explain how Mac OSX has Linux under the hood.

He must mean Unix.

darkhelmetchris
November 2nd, 2010, 12:10 AM
Please explain how Mac OSX has Linux under the hood.

He must mean Unix.

Yes, my bad. ...you know how you get so used to typing Linux and it just falls off the speedy fingers. Sorry Mac - you know I love you.

Storm Rider
November 6th, 2010, 01:46 AM
Ubuntu is the first Linux OS I've tried that detected both the 2.4 ghz and 5.0 ghz bands of my wireless card. :cool: