10.10 Install into 'largest free space' on drive?

[candtalan]

I have just tried to install Ubuntu 10.10 and cannot find the facility to
'install into the largest free space on the drive'

Am I searching in vain? Is it somewhere I have missed or is it in a different form?

Hoping..........

[perspectoff]

Do you actually have free space on the hard drive?

The option doesn't show up unless you do.

Check your partitions and free space with the GParted utility (available on the Ubuntu LiveCD but not on the Kubuntu LiveCD, for some reason).

[Mark Phelps]

In all fairness to the OP, I've been seeing more of these posts all the time. I haven't installed 10.10 yet on my machine, so I don't know this first-hand, but others have reported that in 10.10, there is no longer a "largest free space" option.

If true, that's a really sad regression -- because that is what we have been telling folks to do on preinstalled Vista/Win7 machines in order to avoid partition corruption from resizing using the Ubuntu isntaller.

[perspectoff]

In all fairness to the OP, I've been seeing more of these posts all the time. I haven't installed 10.10 yet on my machine, so I don't know this first-hand, but others have reported that in 10.10, there is no longer a "largest free space" option.

If true, that's a really sad regression -- because that is what we have been telling folks to do on preinstalled Vista/Win7 machines in order to avoid partition corruption from resizing using the Ubuntu isntaller.

That's silly. Most consumer retail computers don't have any free space on them. They either have Windows occupying the entire hard drive, or have multiple partitions already created. To tell the truth, I have never seen a retail computer (sold with a pre-installed OS) that has any free space on it.

HP has started selling its retail computers with multiple partitions, possibly in order to allow installation of other OSs in the non-Windows partitions. No free space will be visible on these computers, either. The user would install (K)Ubuntu manually into one of the empty, spare partitions.

[candtalan]

Yes I have 36 GB free space on the second drive /dev/sdb which is indicated if I use the advanced option where I would need to individually allocate and probably create, partitions in the free space first.

gparted in the live CD also shows (34 GB) unallocated space on the sdb drive, so it is seen and does exist. I have just this hour deleted a couple of smaller partitions using gparted, to create this free space.

I am using the 10.10 desktop CD and at this stage I am attempting the install using the desktop icon from live CD.

The Live CD is md5sum checked ok and in addition is self checked ok.

When at the stage of the window
'Allocate drive space'
I see (only) three options here
-install alongside other operating systems
-erase and use the entire disk
-specify partitions manually (advanced)

I have not yet tried the install option from the initial live CD boot menu obtained by pressing a key during live CD booting.

Can anyone please confirm that they have positively seen or used the 'largest free space' install option with a 10.10 desktop CD?

[candtalan]

telling folks to do on preinstalled Vista/Win7 machines in order to avoid partition corruption from resizing using the Ubuntu isntaller.

Yes this is because some versions of vista (?) are said to not respond well when third party partitioners are used. One easy solution, which I have been advising many vista users is to suggest that the vista facility is itself used to resize their vista partition, and *then* use the live cd and look for the largest free space option in the installer.

[candtalan]

Most consumer retail computers don't have any free space on them

You are correct. However, I am in regular contact with many newcomers and quite a number of these are at the stage of already having a shrunken windows partition, with Ubuntu already installed on one machine or another. The question frequently arises about exactly how these adventurous (but very inexperienced) users should go about doing a fresh install or similar. Effectively what is the easiest way of getting Ubuntu into an unused space on a drive, because it is simple for them to delete a partition.

[candtalan]

I have just tried to install Ubuntu 10.10 and cannot find the facility to
'install into the largest free space on the drive'

Am I searching in vain? Is it somewhere I have missed or is it in a different form?

Hoping..........

Solved.
I have just burned and am trying the Alternate CD, and unlike the current Desktop CD, the Alternate CD does indeed include the option to install into the largest continuous free space on the drive.

I did not have to nominate which of the two drives, since as before, the largest space was correctly nominated in the installer as being in the second drive (sdb).

[perspectoff]

Cool!

I have always preferred the Alternate CD installer (which is the same as the Server version installer) compared to the Regular Download LiveCD installer.

But I wonder what would have happened if you had chosen the "install alongside other operating systems" option, though?

[perspectoff]

You are correct. However, I am in regular contact with many newcomers and quite a number of these are at the stage of already having a shrunken windows partition, with Ubuntu already installed on one machine or another. The question frequently arises about exactly how these adventurous (but very inexperienced) users should go about doing a fresh install or similar. Effectively what is the easiest way of getting Ubuntu into an unused space on a drive, because it is simple for them to delete a partition.

Oh, I'm not at all disagreeing with you. I have always found the "install to the largest free space" option to be the easiest for new users, too.

The problem has always been trying to guide them how to create enough free space in the first place. New users that end up liking (K)Ubuntu end up using it far more than Windows, and then they demand that their (K)ubuntu partition be quite large and their Windows partition smaller.

That is the sticky wicket. I always find it easier to make sure there is a generous amount of free space to begin with, so that the (K)Ubuntu partition that is created is also generously large. Often the "shrinking Windows partition" step is the limiting factor.

I understand the Ubuntu MOTU's wanting to make the installation as simple as possible, but when there is a lack of transparency as to what is happening, it can be difficult to troubleshoot.

That has always been my objection to the Mac OS. A few cute symbols does not a transparent OS make.

Similarly, when you show a splash screen and nothing else at bootup, troubleshooting is difficult.

When you simplify the installer beyond recognition, troubleshooting is difficult.

[perspectoff]

Yes this is because some versions of vista (?) are said to not respond well when third party partitioners are used. One easy solution, which I have been advising many vista users is to suggest that the vista facility is itself used to resize their vista partition, and *then* use the live cd and look for the largest free space option in the installer.

Yeah, I wrote that statement a few years ago (both on help.ubuntu.com and on ubuntuguide.org) before I knew exactly what was the problem.

Windows Vista/7 has a Master File Table that is usually located in the latter part of its own NTFS partition. It is difficult for many third-party partitioners to move the Master File Table correctly whenever they are shrinking the Windows NTFS partition. If the MFT gets corrupted, Windows won't work ever again. To avoid this possibility, I have always advocated to allow Windows to handle its own partition resizing.

(There are also virtual memory files (pagefile.sys) and hibernation files to deal with in Windows, but those can be turned off and removed safely prior to resizing the Windows partition with only a little bit of effort, as discussed at http://www.howtogeek.com/howto/windows-vista/working-around-windows-vistas-shrink-volume-inadequacy-problems/ ).

However, I have successfully used the third-party partitioner Perfect Disk to both move the MFT and resize the Windows partition (in both VistA and Windows 7).

Further, I have always used a somewhat older version of GParted, which definitely could not work with the MFT. I don't know if newer versions of GParted can work with the MFT, and I haven't yet experimented with it. I certainly would not recommend experimenting on a valued installation (lol!)

In researching this issue today, I came across this link, which seems pretty accurate to me:

http://www.thpc.info/how/use_gparted_to_resize_windows_7_vista_partition.ht ml

[candtalan]

I wonder what would have happened if you had chosen the "install alongside other operating systems" option, though?

I am trying this now. I have the first drive (sda) total size 112 GB with a newly created unallocated space of 38GB.

This sda contains a Windows XP installation (sda1) of 26GB which is approximately half full.
The next partition is (logical) sda5, 45GB also about half full containing an installation of Ubuntu 9.10.
Then there is unallocated space of the 38GB (also within the extended partition).
Then finally, (logical) sda6 swap 3.6GB.

I am interested to see that when running the Live CD installer and using the option 'Install alongside other operating systems' I do not get shown the Windows partition, nor the unallocated space.
I only see the resized sda5.

I am now quitting the installer and will now make a partition to fill the unallocated space, leaving the partition unformatted 38GB. To see if the Ubuntu installer recognises an unformatted partition.
Mmm. Gparted just crashed and even when re running the live CD, gparted will not start up. Maybe leaving an unformatted partition is a problem, not sure. will continue to look at this.

[candtalan]

Gparted just crashed and even when re running the live CD, gparted will not start up. Maybe leaving an unformatted partition is a problem, not sure. will continue to look at this.

gparted will not start also when run from an ubuntu 10.10 installation on this machine (in sdb). Something in sda is screwed up I guess (?).
Testing sda:
Windows XP runs ok (sda1).
Ubuntu 9.10 runs ok (sda5). This Ubuntu 9.10 also has gparted installed (version 0.4.5) and this gparted does run ok and shows partition sda7 in place and apparently ok, albeit with Unknown file system (unformatted deliberately).
So - maybe the recent gparted has a problem with an unformatted partition?

I try the Ubuntu 10.10 live CD again. Gparted (version 0.6.2) in the 10.10 live cd is not running, it just crashes in this situation.
Also when running an installed 10.10 with gparted gnome from Software Centre - gparted crashes
version 0.6.2-1ubuntu1(gparted)
apport will not run gparted.

I will return to using ubuntu 9.10 in order to format the currently unformatted partition to see if that helps......

Problematic partition is now no longer unformatted, it is formatted ext4 after using ubuntu 9.10 with an installed gparted (version 0.4.5).

Gparted in Ubuntu 10.10 now runs ok. Conclusion is that this gparted has a problem with an unformatted partition.
bug reported #661151

[candtalan]

My original objective, some messages ago, was to test the Ubuntu 10.10 desktop installer with circumstances related to the user having deleted a partition, then having an unpartitioned space on the drive.

Ubuntu 10.10 Desktop live CD installer does not allow for easy handling of unallocated space on the target drive like previous Ubuntu versions.

The subsequent experiment of simply creating a partition but leaving it unpartitioned, gave problems apparently related to a bug in the version of gparted.

The next experiment was to take the unpartitioned partition (sda7) and simply format it. This was done, ext4 (but could not be done with Ubuntu 10.10)
and the ubuntu 10.10 gparted subsequently worked ok.

The Ubuntu 10.10 Desktop live CD was then used to examine the installer options.

The first option
'Install alongside other operating systems'
The GUI shows (only) the sda7 and sda8.
sda7 as

Files (824.6MB) [it is empty of content]
/dev/sda7 (ext4)
20GB [variable size depends on slider position]

A new partition is shown as an installer proposal
Ubuntu
/dev/sda8 (ext4)
18.5GB [variable size depends on slider position]

I know from prior knowledge that what is shown is based on using my target sda7 partition, and sda8 is not yet in existence. I note that the Windows partition is not shown here. Nor is the Ubuntu 9.10 installation. This installer is pretty clever.

Below the GUI of the partitions, there are two buttons.
'Use Entire Partition'
and
'Use Entire Disk'

I intend to proceed by using the 'Use Entire Partition' button.
[click]

I see one single drive space only, in the window, and the button below now offers
'Split Largest Partition'

this toggles to the previous option.

Continuing with 'Use Entire Partition' button, I note that at this stage the display does not identify which partition is being used, although I believe it is in fact /dev/sda7 as suggested by the earlier display. [Possible useful identity display enhancement here]

Proceeding by click of button
'Install Now'
[short break for refreshment...]
[I get the subjective impression that the Live CD installer is faster to complete than the Alternate CD installer for 10.10]

Whoops!
PROBLEM! PROBLEM!

The installation has in fact taken over the whole drive, and did not restrict itself only the whole partition as selected (see above).

This is a pretty major problem. Although this is a test machine, It lost a windows installation and an Ubuntu 9.10 installation.

I am pretty confident that I chose the intended 'Use Entire Partition' button as described above which was typed in real time while actually doing the actions.

The thread is still marked as solved - as appropriate for the use of the Alternate CD and the thread Subject.

However, if my current discovery is correct, then there is a treacherous problem just seen. I will do more work when time allows and hope to start another thread.

Later edit:
Hard drive failure:
I set about reinstalling Windows and found that the installation/s failed, and soon, even the live CD would not boot, and later still I could not even get access to bios setup. Tracked this down to the sda hard drive having failed in some way. (Even a short time with sda drive in the freezer did not change this). Various swaps and cable changes etc etc showed that when sda drive was cabled in (pata) the start up sequence halted when this drive should have been active.
So, I am not convinced that my discovered bug in gparted is valid, and nor am I sure that my problems with the Ubuntu 10.10 installer are valid because both were seen when looking into a hard drive which was apparently failing during the time as I was active in this thread. A fascinating snapshot of one day in my life!

[mjkuwp]

hi, NEW to Ubuntu and having the same problem - I have already lost hours on this. Trying to build a dual boot VISTA/Ubuntu

This is what I did on my Dell laptop

1) installed a new, empty drive
2) installed VISTA
3) used VISTA to reduce the partition size and leave about 80GB free unallocated space.

4) downloaded Ubuntu 10.10 desktop, checked Checksum
5) burned CD, checked it for errors.

6) tried to do an installation into "free space" but did NOT get this option....

6b) tried installing alongside the existing OS and it tries to shrink my already shrunken VISTA partition leaving only a small 20GB for Ubuntu. the empty space does not show.

the moral of the story... for beginners there doesn't seem to be a good option anymore. since I have created unallocated space and the 10.10 installer does not recognize this, I must now go into 'advanced' and I get totally lost.

Can anyone direct me to a step by step for this scnenario?

since I am new to dual boot and Ubuntu the variety of options in the advanced partitioning are very intimidating... :(

[evets]

nor am I sure that my problems with the Ubuntu 10.10 installer are valid


Your observations compare, favorably, with mine. The 10.10 installer is bugged. I had the same results as you, in that I lost installs of Windows and 10.04 (UE 2.7).

To the "Alternate"...and beyond! :)

[candtalan]

3) used VISTA to reduce the partition size and leave about 80GB free unallocated space

Welcome to Ubuntu!

The quick answer I found here was simply to use the 'Alternate' CD. You already know that Ubuntu 10.10 runs ok as a live CD (I suppose?) so, start using the Alternate CD to 'Install Ubuntu' is pretty straightforward.

In your case, verify that you still have a large un partitioned uncommitted space on the drive (with more than one drive be careful to identify the drive to target the correct drive). Using the Alternate CD to boot from, Install Ubuntu 10.10 and at the partitioner stage, you will still see the useful option to
'Install into largest unused space on the drive'

[stevems1958]

Whoops!
PROBLEM! PROBLEM!

The installation has in fact taken over the whole drive, and did not restrict itself only the whole partition as selected (see above).

This is a pretty major problem. Although this is a test machine, It lost a windows installation and an Ubuntu 9.10 installation.

<deleted stuff>

So, I am not convinced that my discovered bug in gparted is valid, and nor am I sure that my problems with the Ubuntu 10.10 installer are valid because both were seen when looking into a hard drive which was apparently failing during the time as I was active in this thread. A fascinating snapshot of one day in my life!

I have suffered the same grief. I had an old version of Ubuntu (9.04, I think) on my dual boot laptop. The other OS was Windows XP. When I selected the partition on which 9.04 resided and chose 'Use entire partition' it proceeded to use the entire disk. I am also fairly certain I made the correct selection during the install process.

Important data was backed up, but still a very annoying situation.

Further grief...When I reinstalled Windows, I thought I'd be clever and leave unallocated space on the disk for the Ubuntu 10.10 install. Planned on using the "install to largest unallocated space option."

It's been a rough weekend. ](*,)

Steve

[mjkuwp]

ah, yes. thanks to the forum and this thread in particular I DID go ahead and find the "alternate CD". I used this and it worked quite well. I am up and running. I like that this option also creates the swap as a partition automatically.

it's just a bummer that a beginner would have to go through all these steps...

1) attempt installation
2) have it not work
3) go to the forum for support
4) *maybe* find the solution.
5) etc..


What I think would be helpful is if the "download" area of the website would inquire how you, the beginner intends to install and direct you to the alternate CD as required.

anyway, other than the hours wasted on the install... so far so good!