what do you think of ammonia as a car fuel?

[sdowney717]

http://www.ammoniafuelnetwork.org/

I read you could convert wind power to ammonia fuel and then move it where you wished as an energy storage medium. In a way that makes wind power more useful as tying into the grid has been a major expense.

http://www.ammoniafuelnetwork.org/images/chart2.jpg

most people are unaware of the fuel potential

Ammonia combustion: 4NH3 + 3O2 2N2 + 6H2O (nitrogen and water vapor)

[Lucradia]

I lol'd at EME (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EME_%28psychedelic%29).

There are two DMEs however, which (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethyl_ether) one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mash_ingredients#Syrups_and_extracts) do you mean?

[timtom59]

Amonia as fuel = SCARY! D:

[ukripper]

I think we need Nuclear powered car when it is safer in future - http://auto.howstuffworks.com/fuel-efficiency/alternative-fuels/nuclear-powered-car.htm

[Lucradia]

I think we need Nuclear powered car when it is safer in future - http://auto.howstuffworks.com/fuel-efficiency/alternative-fuels/nuclear-powered-car.htm

What about the fuel cell that powered the voyager satillite? That had minimal nuclear waste to speak of since it was a combination of Nuclear Fusion and Fission.

[mcduck]

High energy density aside, it's toxic, requires storage either at high pressure or low temperature and when burned produces nitrous oxides which aren't exactly healthy or environment-friendly..

Doesn't sound like a great idea to me. :)

[Lucradia]

High energy density aside, it's toxic, requires storage either at high pressure or low temperature and when burned produces nitrous oxides which aren't exactly healthy or environment-friendly..

Doesn't sound like a great idea to me. :)

I think the OP factored in that the air we breathe is like, 80-90% Nitrogen, though we live off oxygen.

[ukripper]

What about the fuel cell that powered the voyager satillite? That had minimal nuclear waste to speak of since it was a combination of Nuclear Fusion and Fission.

Not sure how safe the satellite was, if it would have crashed back on earth, could have been deadly.

Fuel cell technology is out there for ages but doesn't seem to be at par of revolutionising fuel area. We need something drastic and intiuitive to take on our daily fuel needs. Therefore, IMO mini-nuclear-reactor in every car should be the way forward when it is safer.

[Lucradia]

Well, taking MegaMan Legends into play, if you know what I mean. They use a special "crystal" that spins at high velocity and bends light energy to shoot toward solar-panel like panels (usually in a sphere covering the entire crystal.)

Sounds fantasy, but...

[Ctrl-Alt-F1]

Sounds fantasy
Indeed.

[mcduck]

I think the OP factored in that the air we breathe is like, 80-90% Nitrogen, though we live off oxygen.

Well, I didn't complain about burning ammonia producing nitrogen, but the fact that it can easily produce nitrogen oxides like nitrous oxide & nitric oxide. Different thing. :D

The air we breathe definitely doesn't (or shouldn't) contain nitrogen oxides. They aren't exactly healthy stuff, and can form even nastier stuff in the atmosphere.

Edit: the formula for ammonia combustion on the first post and on the linked website isn't the only one. Depending on the exact fuel-to-air mixture and possible presence of catalytic materials will produce different results, like the reaction used when producing nitric acid (4 NH3 + 5 O2 → 4 NO + 6 H2O). On the other hand you pretty much need a catalyst to burn ammonia, as the flame temperature is otherwise smaller than what's required to ignite ammonia/air mixture.

So the burning reaction produces much energy for a given amount of fuel, but the combustion is hard to maintain while keeping it clean, and the fuel itself is toxic and hard to store safely.

[sdowney717]

http://www.automotive-fleet.com/News/Story/2010/09/DOE-Lab-Partners-to-Develop-NG-Engines-Vehicles/Page/1.aspx

I see that the DOE is gong to develop CNG engines.
CNG is a pretty explosive and potentially deadly gas. Yet they are going ahead with it anyway since natural gas is so much cheaper.
All fuels are dangerous but systems can be developed to minimize the risks.

When I read that, I remembered about ammonia fuels.

[fatality_uk]

No need for over complicated chemistry. The future of vehicle propulsion is already here. http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/

[sdowney717]

All sorts of problems with pure hydrogen too.
Ammonia is NH3, so the hydrogen is there already in liquid form in the fuel.
Complicated fuel systems are already in use just with gasoline and diesel.
If they wished, they could design and implement most any fuel system, some more practical than others. Fuel cost and future availability are something to think about.

http://pesn.com/2005/05/24/6900101_ZAP_ammonia_cracker/

ammonia can power a fuel cell


Aronsson says, "The easiest and least expensive way to move Hydrogen from Point A to Point B is to use ammonia. Seventy-five percent of ammonia (NH3) is hydrogen. Ammonia can be added inexpensively as a component of today's gas stations, without costly hydrogen extractors, allowing the refueling of fuel cell cars today, years ahead of other hydrogen solutions."

[MasterNetra]

All sorts of problems with pure hydrogen too.
Ammonia is NH3, so the hydrogen is there already in liquid form in the fuel.
Complicated fuel systems are already in use just with gasoline and diesel.
If they wished, they could design and implement most any fuel system, some more practical than others. Fuel cost and future availability are something to think about.

http://pesn.com/2005/05/24/6900101_ZAP_ammonia_cracker/

ammonia can power a fuel cell

Oh and what of disasters and accidents surely massive amounts of ammonia being released into the environment can't be good for it... Plus isn't coming into skin contact with us and probably many animals dangerous? I'll pass on Ammonia as a fuel alternative.

[lykwydchykyn]

It would ruin that joke that goes "Name 2 cars that start with pee"...

[Dustin2128]

What about the fuel cell that powered the voyager satillite? That had minimal nuclear waste to speak of since it was a combination of Nuclear Fusion and Fission.
true enough, but think about the rate at which most people replace cars.

I think we should just swap to fission as a mid term energy solution for electric cars until we develop fusion.

[grahammechanical]

How much electrical energy does the nuclear reactor in a submarine produce? Enough to light a small town? I do not know. How about small submarine type nuclear reactors all over the country? Must be cheaper than the large type being proposed and quicker to build. And safer? Smaller explosion. But not in my backyard!

Regards.

[user1397]

I am of the belief that anything but the following is completely and utterly unacceptable:

-Grid powered 100% by renewable energy - solar, wind, geothermal, hydropower, etc

-Transportation 100% electric

Anything else is a complete waste of time.

[mobilediesel]

I am of the belief that anything but the following is completely and utterly unacceptable:

-Grid powered 100% by renewable energy - solar, wind, geothermal, hydropower, etc

-Transportation 100% electric

Anything else is a complete waste of time.

And the technology to build that stuff already exists and is functional.

This whole "burning stuff for energy" is just silly.

[juancarlospaco]

Common engine of cars are too innefficiient

Build solar panels is not environment friendly, uses a lot of toxics and such

[Spice Weasel]

Oil corporations profits would drop, and they wouldn't be able to cope with that. They wouldn't let it happen.

[Khakilang]

People power is cheaper and safer that any fuel.

[Lucradia]

People power is cheaper and safer that any fuel.

Heck yes, 50 Years of Flintstones can't be wrong.

[cammin]

People power is cheaper and safer that any fuel.

You haven't priced out what it would cost to hire people to power your home.

[ubunterooster]

Ammonia??

So much for "pee before we go"

Now: "don't pee until we are in the car"

[jfreak_]

http://www.automotive-fleet.com/News/Story/2010/09/DOE-Lab-Partners-to-Develop-NG-Engines-Vehicles/Page/1.aspx

I see that the DOE is gong to develop CNG engines.
CNG is a pretty explosive and potentially deadly gas. Yet they are going ahead with it anyway since natural gas is so much cheaper.
All fuels are dangerous but systems can be developed to minimize the risks.

When I read that, I remembered about ammonia fuels.


About CNG, i don't think it is deadly. It is used as the fuel in the entire public transportation (include buses and cabs and some private vehicles) in Delhi. Pollution rates have dropped like a stone and CNG is cheaper than petrol

[forrestcupp]

I think ammonia as a fuel would be very expensive.


Ammonia??

So much for "pee before we go"

Now: "don't pee until we are in the car"

:lol:

[koenn]

You haven't priced out what it would cost to hire people to power your home.

hire ?
just use slaves. a lot cheaper in the long run.

[sdowney717]

http://www.zerofuel.org/uploads/ZeroFueldownload_1_.pdf

ever heard of carbamide?
urea
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urea
Urea or carbamide is an organic compound with the chemical formula (NH2)2CO. The molecule has two amine (-NH2) groups joined by a carbonyl (C=O) functional group.

[sdowney717]

http://www.ehow.com/about_6192114_carbamide-fuel-cars.html

This sounds good as a fuel alternative. And it is safer than using ammonia even though it becomes ammonia.


A High-Performance Fuel
# Carbamide, when added to tap water, is transformed into a combustible compound of ammonia and hydrogen that can be introduced into a car by means of fuel injection. Because ammonia's octane level in zero fuel, or fuel made with carbamide, is more than 130, the alternative fuel, when compared to gasoline, is a higher performance fuel.


Read more: Carbamide as a Fuel for Cars | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/about_6192114_carbamide-fuel-cars.html#ixzz118DzCD4B



Carbamide as a Fuel for Cars
By Ann Ryan, eHow Contributor
updated: April 3, 2010
I want to do this! What's This?

Carbamide, also known as urea, is made up of a mixture of hydrogen, nitrogen and carbon dioxide and is used as a fertilizer in commercial farming. When added with tap water, it can be produced into an eco-friendly fuel.

A Non-Explosive Fuel
1. When used as an alternative fuel source, carbamide produces a non-toxic fuel that is exceptionally safe as it's neither explosive nor flammable.
No Emissions
2. When tap water is mixed with carbamide, the resultant fuel, also know as zero fuel, emits nitrogen and water into the atmosphere. Because nitrogen is already part of the air we breathe, the fuel has no emissions that can pose a health risk to humans or that can harm the environment.
A High-Performance Fuel
3. Carbamide, when added to tap water, is transformed into a combustible compound of ammonia and hydrogen that can be introduced into a car by means of fuel injection. Because ammonia's octane level in zero fuel, or fuel made with carbamide, is more than 130, the alternative fuel, when compared to gasoline, is a higher performance fuel.
Availability
4. Carbamide or urea is produced in substantial quantities (up to 130 million tons worldwide); therefore, its availability as an alternative fuel is easily obtainable, which also means it can be continually produced for use.
Mileage
5. Fuel produced with carbamide, or zero fuel, has been shown to receive about 60 miles to the gallon, making it not only an eco-friendly fuel but also an economical fuel as well.



Read more: Carbamide as a Fuel for Cars | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/about_6192114_carbamide-fuel-cars.html#ixzz118EHXi9x

[sdowney717]

doing a search for carbamide fuel and it is bringing up a lot on a new cheap fuel cell design. Like this here.

http://2ndgreenrevolution.com/2010/08/27/not-just-for-treating-jellyfish-stings-urine-powered-fuel-cells/

Supposedly people pee out enough urine in a year to drive 1600 miles


Is the urea – also called carbamide – found in urine a waste that may be too precious to waste? NewScientist hints that it might be a new source of fuel for producing renewable energy. “An adult produces enough urine each year to drive a car 1678 miles (2700 km) on energy from the urea it contains, according to calculations by Shanwen Tao, who develops urea-powered fuel cells at Heriot-Watt University in Edinburgh, UK.” Dr Shanwen Tao and his research partner Dr Rong Lan have developed a prototype (diagram below) that does just that. Dr. Tao explains how he came upon the idea:

[shzln]

ammonia = bad idea

to make ammonia you need hydrogen, there is a lot of research into this already and its quite expensive

a byproduct of ammonia combustion would be nitrogen oxides

[Lightstar]

Nitro all the way

[macem29]

based on nothing bu my generally ill-informed opinion of ammonia, it sounds like a terrible fuel,
toxic, dangerous to handle, expensive to produce....

I think we need to start changing the way we operate to make the biggest gains....live locally...
stop moving stuff and people around so much, wastes time, energy, pollutes...I live in Canada
and half the fish sold in a grocery store is from China....that's ridiculous considering our geography,
imagine the wasted energy and resources involved in sending a shipping container of frozen fish from
China to Canada

[Old_Grey_Wolf]

High energy density aside, it's toxic, requires storage either at high pressure or low temperature and when burned produces nitrous oxides which aren't exactly healthy or environment-friendly..

Doesn't sound like a great idea to me. :)

HAHAHA. In the 1960s, when I was young and playing with chemistry, I made nitrous oxide for laughs. Nitrous oxide is commonly referred to as "Laughing Gas".

Bring on the cars, it will make the world a happier place.

:lolflag::lolflag::lolflag:

[arvevans]

Teenagers are already using ammonia as a gasoline additive, supposedly for better engine performance.

We produce and use tons of ammonia annually in the form of Anhydrous Ammonia fertilizer. It is cheap and easily transported.

Unfortunately it is a petrochemical derivative and thus depends on oil to make it.