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junglemike
April 7th, 2006, 11:57 AM
Why is Linux more popular in Europe, and much less popular in the US?

dermotti
April 7th, 2006, 12:05 PM
Because Bill Gates is American, and Windows is an American product.

derjames
April 7th, 2006, 12:10 PM
How do you know that? I think that is a bit difficult to say... How can you quantify the populary?
However you can have an idea (just that!) of how popular is Ubuntu in the USA and in Europe. Just to push the members map link at the top of this forum web page...

Cheers

Spacecaptain
April 7th, 2006, 12:19 PM
well, the users map above is for Ubuntu only, am i right?
anyway, i'm not sure either that linux is more popular in europe than the USA.
maybe someone can throw in some beleivable numbers?

also, big chunks of GNU/Linux are american in origin (if applying a nation to the origin of software has any meaning)
and RMS is from the USA, isn't he? if soemeone has built the bases for FOSS, it's him.

engla
April 7th, 2006, 12:39 PM
As Linus says in Revolution OS

"And maybe some will realize that Microsoft isn't the American Dream after all.."

Rikostan
April 7th, 2006, 12:59 PM
Can I ask how you came to the conclusion that Linux is more popular in Europe than the US?
Are there some articles with hard numbers in them?

Also why do you consider this an "unethical" question? Unless of course you meant some kind of slight by it...

MetalMusicAddict
April 7th, 2006, 01:06 PM
Ive always had the feeling that linux was more widespread in Europe than the U.S. because of the grip that MS has on U.S. PC makers.

zubrug
April 7th, 2006, 02:30 PM
It is hard to find linux in any of the major retailer's in Canada and if you do it is usually on the very bottom row in a dark corner. Microsoft has alot of clout when it comes to product placement.
I used to by linux mag's to get linux cd's when I only had dail-up. Linux is everywhere, but is relegated to background server operations and a small band of progressive tech. users.
This will change, I live in a small town and have been able to convert some simply by helping them with some windows issues.
Security will be one of the deciding factors in poeple making the linux choice. Would you buy a car that had new safety issues every week as well as requiring you to personally tighten certain nuts and bolts for your own safety.

angkor
April 7th, 2006, 02:31 PM
Because Europeans are waaay smarter off course ;)


sorry for the unethical answer. ;)

BoyOfDestiny
April 7th, 2006, 02:44 PM
Why is Linux more popular in Europe, and much less popular in the US?

Prove that this is the case first...

I do know open source is something global. I know the GPL was born in the U.S. since it was created by Richard Stallman.
Without the GPL, well needless to say things would be different.

lnxpwr
April 7th, 2006, 02:48 PM
because...in an area without fences and walls, why do we need gates and windows ?

Rikostan
April 7th, 2006, 02:53 PM
I think a few people do not understand what ethical and unethical mean...

junglemike
April 7th, 2006, 03:05 PM
How do you know that? I think that is a bit difficult to say... How can you quantify the populary?
Didn't want to affend anybody, I've just read it in loacl computer-related magazine (computerra).I'm sure that article in small magazine doesn't actually qualify for anything, but I'm sure the answer could be easily found by googling a bit. But I think it is pretty clear and straightforward (to me at least). I mean , even if i hadn't read it - I would still be pretty sure of and answer. I just wanted to know actually why.

I live in Israel, Unfortunately here, Linux is just as unpopular .
I've been working as tech support for 2.5 years. Almost no ISP would support somebody with linux (exdept very limited support for only 2 destribution only by one ISP). I'm also not sure it it's easy to find a computer (expecially laptop) w/o windows preinstalled.

poofyhairguy
April 7th, 2006, 03:15 PM
Why is Linux more popular in Europe, and much less popular in the US?

Its popular in the US, just not as much as a desktop OS. Us Americans love Linux in our TiVos, cell phones, bar games, and wireless routers.

Why is it less popular as a desktop OS? Well if it is, its because this is MS's backyard. I know personally that my school system recieved thousands of dollars in the form of software and cash from Bill Gates's charity and that is why they would never even think of switching to just Openoffice.

IYY
April 7th, 2006, 03:25 PM
I live in Israel, Unfortunately here, Linux is just as unpopular .
I've been working as tech support for 2.5 years. Almost no ISP would support somebody with linux (exdept very limited support for only 2 destribution only by one ISP). I'm also not sure it it's easy to find a computer (expecially laptop) w/o windows preinstalled.

Well, you don't really need official support from an ISP, especially if it's DSL or Cable. "Edited for content that violates forum policy", so that you're not paying the MS tax (unless things changed in regards to piracy in Israel in the past few years).

Mr_J_
April 7th, 2006, 03:39 PM
I think you must have a bit of a wrong opinion on the amount of supporters that exist worldwide, because the U.S. have been the ones I see as most active in supporting linux.

I can only speak about my own experiences, and, for the most part, I think that windows gets more support in countries such as mine because no one is actually paying for the software they own.

I hope that my government, and frankly, all governments start coming out and hunting people that break the law in terms of using windows, and stealing music, and all that.

I still think MSFT wouldn't allow that to happen too well. Just as scare tactics.
Most Europeans, I believe, don't pay for the software they use, and if they are made to do so, they will not like it.
Many would probably change to linux if given the information to decide.

dolny
April 7th, 2006, 04:21 PM
I can only speak about my own experiences, and, for the most part, I think that windows gets more support in countries such as mine because no one is actually paying for the software they own.

I agree.


I hope that my government, and frankly, all governments start coming out and hunting people that break the law in terms of using windows, and stealing music, and all that.

I don't agree ;) I mean not fully. Well I don't want to be flamed so I won't comment on that.


Most Europeans, I believe, don't pay for the software they use, and if they are made to do so, they will not like it.
Many would probably change to linux if given the information to decide.

True. I switched to Linux cause I want to be legal, and it's an interesting OS + I love the hippie idea of open source and the Ubuntu community for example.

95% of my friends/people I know use illegal Windows, and I 'm almost sure 100% of them have at least one illegal program installed. But hey, the apps are really expensive in Poland. I mean REALLY expensive. If they were cheaper... (ok, let's not start a flame war).

fuscia
April 7th, 2006, 04:41 PM
european economies force people to find less expensive alternatives.

Mr_J_
April 7th, 2006, 04:56 PM
I use windows in a less than legal way, and the music is also less than legal...
If they catch me I'm going away for a long time, but I still think that would change the marketshare windows has.

A lot!

Who in their right mind is going to pay 500€ for windows, 200€ for office, 60€ for anti-virus, 60€ for nero, 60€ for firewall...
That's 880@€ to get a computer working! Most people I know didn't spend that much on the computer itself.

Most people in my country don't have windows legally or any programs for that matter in a legal fashion. They cost a ridiculous amount of money!

Most stores in my country that use computers would probably close if they were to pay for all the software they use... Or at least be crippled severelly into near bankrupcy.

The Market share Windows has is largelly because it has entire countries of people using illegal copies of Windows, office, and all programs...

I think Windows is used only because of the large amounts of ilegal copies...
Who is going to purchase a 1500€ piece of hardware that needs another 1000€ to work, to get a 60€ game working. Instead just buy a console and shut up about it... Or install linux for free and keep the computer humming.

Americans have immense salaries, at least that's how it looks from over the Ocean... They can afford the purchase of a 3500€ computer, but practicly no one I know can.
Where is the market for the 500€ computer? Most people I know have dificult times getting that much raised up as extras to splurge on a computer...

Europe has less money than the US, so there is a smaller amount of people paying for unnecessary items if it can be avoided. Even if it's illegal.
Windows doesn't have to be paid for, so people don't have a burden to loose when they think about coming to linux.

blueturtl
April 7th, 2006, 05:06 PM
If Linux is indeed less popular as a desktop system in the States it's propably a result of multiple variables than a single cause. Like someone propably already mentioned, the legislation in the United States is currently in a state where such horrible things as the Windows EULA pass as being perfectly legal. In European countries, a lot of the limitations MS tries to impose on it's customers do not apply either because they are illegal here, or because the courts rule in favour of the customers.

There are other things too; I for one believe that patriotism does influence our thinking in some ways. Like here in Finland people buy domestic products rather than foreign even if foreign products are superior or just as good. It's just the way people work. If you're stuck with crap, at least it's crap you know and not some foreign crap. :mrgreen: This mentality is apparent in all nations, everyone favours their own. Why wouldn't Americans favour Windows?

Another reason is that a lot of business people don't take Linux seriously (and America is the land of business people right?.) These people automatically think that because something is free (as in it doesn't cost anything) it's worthless, or it can't be as good as something that costs quite a bit. A lot of brands price their products even higher simply to give them that status of "value".

Of course this can't all be right and I hope I haven't offended anyone. Just a thought...

Blarion
April 7th, 2006, 05:12 PM
Think it might be because microsoft is supported by all the american computer manufacturers

Spacecaptain
April 7th, 2006, 05:21 PM
Somehow i'm not sure that here in Europe we are having higher levels of piracy than in the USA. The figures on these issues are really less than trustable.

Since many years, proprietary software companies have aquiesced teh existance of pirated copies of their products, as this was a way to fixate the user base on their producs, letting them time to figure out how they would end up levering money out of them, somehow draging that huge pirate-userbase towards legal consumers.

right now, it's obvious that every country in the world has significant shares of installed pirateware. what has changed is that there is less and less obvious ways for the proprietary software companies to convert that share into paying customers.
sueing customers is not effective at all, and they are scared that poking a stick in the ant-hill will get the little buggers organised!

i think they are scared of free software, more so than they show.

junglemike
April 7th, 2006, 05:31 PM
And you could buy a computer with a pirated version of Windows, so that you're not paying the MS tax (unless things changed in regards to piracy in Israel in the past few years).
Thought not so overwhelming like in Russia, there is some software piracy here. I personally never used XP in my life (and glad about it) - But I couldn't have afforded it, if need. Just look at my signature at my computer specs, and then compare them to yours, You'll understand why.

RS3York
April 7th, 2006, 05:54 PM
I think you must have a bit of a wrong opinion on the amount of supporters that exist worldwide, because the U.S. have been the ones I see as most active in supporting linux.

As others have said, I'd like to see some hard numbers on this. I bet that Firefox's higher adoption rate in Europe has been extrapolated to the use of open source in general (and therefore GNU/Linux). Frankly this discussion is, as per usual, rather "West"-centric - it seems that India, China & South America (esp. Brasil) are making more progress toward the common adoption of open source than either North America or Europe.




95% of my friends/people I know use illegal Windows, and I 'm almost sure 100% of them have at least one illegal program installed. But hey, the apps are really expensive in Poland. I mean REALLY expensive. If they were cheaper... (ok, let's not start a flame war).

While I agree that piracy would be reduced if the price went down, I don't think it would make a large impact against the problem...people still steal all manner of cheap goods, from paper to chewing gum. If people have grown accustomed to taking a bootleg "for free", will those same people turn around and buy it next time? Even if the product costs less? Some will pay, but I doubt most would...unless there was a perceived threat of real legal/disciplinary action against those with copies of illegal software.

Music is a great example of this. "CDs cost too much"...people pirate. Legal online services come out with prices lower than the cost of a CD...some people start buying legal music, but piracy on the whole remains stable. CD prices drop some...piracy remains stable. Used CD stores get more popular...piracy remains stable. On and on it goes.

When one can download a song for 24 cents from emusic.com (no DRM either) or cheaper from some non-American vendors...it's hard to imagine that people will stop pirating Windows en masse, even if the price dropped to $70-80 USD.

Although I don't promote piracy, I can see at least one way how Microsoft benefits from such high levels of piracy: near-ubiquity. People tend to be locked into specific applications more than specific Operating Systems. If even one fifth of illegal Windows desktops are converted to a GNU/Linux distro the marketplace changes significantly. Both software & hardware companies would have increased incentive to support the Linux Market meaning a lower chance of "I'd try ABC but I need XYZ".

mangz74
April 7th, 2006, 06:57 PM
Well, I do agree that open source is more widely accepted in other countries outside the US because of Microsoft's cloat in the American market. If you noticed, when you go to Best Buy or CompUSA, all the PCs sold have WINXP installed, and there isn't any choice either. Would you then delete that XP that you PAID with your system to use a OS that you get for free? Of course you'll use the one you paid for until you get whats it worth. It is just a matter of economics. Another thing, haven't you noticed that Linux magazines like Linux Users and Linux Format comes from UK and not from the US? I think there is more linux magazines published in Europe compared to the United States.

m.musashi
April 7th, 2006, 07:01 PM
There are other things too; I for one believe that patriotism does influence our thinking in some ways. Like here in Finland people buy domestic products rather than foreign even if foreign products are superior or just as good. It's just the way people work. If you're stuck with crap, at least it's crap you know and not some foreign crap. :mrgreen: This mentality is apparent in all nations, everyone favours their own. Why wouldn't Americans favour Windows?
There may be some truth to that but I'm not sure Americans (or anyone else) favors windows. It's just what almost all computers come with. You have to make a conscious effort to NOT buy windows (ie. buy a mac or custom PC and install your own OS). In the end, I don't think most people care. They just want to buy a computer and so they go to best buy, talk to some idiot and go home happy. If it had Linux instead many people would probably be just as happy. Only those who know windows well and don't want to learn something new would probably not choose the linux option.

On a related topic, I just saw that Dell now has a link on their home page to Open Source PCs. It used to be burried but now it's almost easy to find. Could this be the beginning of a revolution?

Are you looking for a desktop on which you can run Linux® or other open-source operating systems? Look no further!

Dell's new open-source n Series desktop solution provides customers with a DimensionTM E510 desktop without an installed or included Microsoft® operating system. With the n Series desktop, customers have the flexibility to install an alternative operating system (such as a version of Linux® ), and help reduce the price of this system. In addition, the n Series desktop comes with a non-formatted hard drive ready for your custom installation. Dell's n Series desktop ships with a copy of FreeDosTM , an open-source operating system that is ready to install.
Although they are also careful to add this:

Note: Dell does not support non-Dell installed operating systems.

htinn
April 7th, 2006, 07:30 PM
Gee, I wonder why? It wouldn't have anything to do with this, would it?


The first shot was taken with Microsoft's new OEM license, it forces PC makers to pay a royalty for every PC shipped, whether it includes Windows or not. It means that Microsoft is forcing OEMs to pay them even if they ship a Linux based machine.

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=3260

m.musashi
April 7th, 2006, 07:51 PM
Gee, I wonder why? It wouldn't have anything to do with this, would it?



http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=3260
What exactly are they afraid of. They have a very solid business. Even if Linux had 20-30% of the market MS would still be doing fine. Maybe the fear is that if people really have a choice they wouldn't choose MS at all and they would go out of business.

nickle
April 8th, 2006, 12:27 AM
I
I hope that my government, and frankly, all governments start coming out and hunting people that break the law in terms of using windows, and stealing music, and all that.

wwwhhoo... easy man, I don't want to be hunted by your government or any other one for that matter when I exercise my rights as a citizen. Much of what is now being touted as breaking the law when it comes to patenting and digital rights is simply about protecting the rights of powerful corporations and national interests. These laws are restricting more and more our rights to do what we like with the things we have legally bought. I do not want to be hunted for that!!!!

When goverments "hunt" people things get out of hand very quickly... we have enough examples of this in recent history and current affairs.

halfvolle melk
April 8th, 2006, 12:46 AM
Wikipedia says:
USA: 298,290,000
Europe: 708,241,928

%-wise is anybodys guess.

YourSurrogateGod
April 8th, 2006, 01:22 AM
It's a question of perception in this instance. Also, consumers in individual countries will often support the products made in their own countries, call it patriotism if you will.