Should schools be using linux?

[darkstarbyte]

I think schools should be using linux its cheaper especialy during massive budget cuts and more secure. I talked to alot of sysadmins and they tell me the same thing over and over if linux gets as big as windows it will start getting viruses but i keep saying is that you have file permissions to prevent this and its open source so if one does appear you can patch the thing because they have alot of programmers working for them so put them to work then they bring up the argument that the amount of linux viruses has doubled in recent years so i do the math linux controls about 3% or so of all computers and they say it has about 100 viruses and windows has about 90% of all the computers and has about 1,122,311 written in 2007 alone right according to

http://www.cknow.com/cms/vtutor/number-of-viruses.html

for linux

http://www.desktoplinux.com/articles/AT3307459975.html

some anti-viruses have reported 30,000 new ones every day.
90 / 3 = 30 and 1,122,311 / 100 = 11223.11 see how much higher the ratio is opposed to the amount of people use it is there are more than 11223.11 times more virus for windows than linux so linux does not have more viruses than windows.


Give me your opion please.

[TNT1]

Yes, I think schools should be using linux, but not simply for the virus issue.

[Grenage]

This is a recurring discussion, but...


Not really, or at least primarily. Windows is what most of the world uses, so it makes sense that they learn something they can actually use. Some Linux schooling would probably be beneficial, and Macs not so much.

[darkstarbyte]

I thought recuring dicussions was the place to post such a thing. One more thing i left out when linux does update the don't have to reboot and i was reading a book a while back that said that linux is as unsecure as windows but all there examples were beta software so when they use those examples of course they are a die hard windows fan and knows very little about linux.

[DougieFresh4U]

One more thing i left out when linux does update the don't have to reboot
There are some updates that do require a reboot, but maybe not as often as other OS

[3rdalbum]

I don't really have a problem with schools using Windows, but I do think they should be using a freely-available office suite. I hate seeing my girlfriend downloading documents from her uni in Microsoft Word format, because not everybody can afford a $200 copy of Word. Especially not her.

Yes, Openoffice can open and save Word documents, but even I have qualms about saving back to Word format from within Openoffice because things might get lost in translation I've imported Word documents into Openoffice.org and lost formatting; this was recently too.

As far as I'm concerned, all documents should be given to students as paper or PDF, and for editable documents there should be Word and ODF versions available.

[honeybear]

Many schools are already using Debian since its beginning

However Ubuntu starts a little bit

[ST3ALTHPSYCH0]

As staff at a school I have to agree that it makes more sense for the students to use an OS that they are more likely to encounter IRL. That said, I also believe that there should be elective classes that give experience in other OSes. However, once again, the best choice here would be to use a distro that they would be likely to encounter in the workplace, so SUSE or RHEL would be the best options (OpenSUSE or Fedora would probably be compatible enough and cut down costs).

Concerning the use of MS Office in schools.... it comes back to the same point, the students are currently most likely to encounter this office suite in the workforce, and once you consider the educational rate at which such institutions get licensing, it just makes sense. One way to circumvent the compatibility issues would to have a user (I'm referring to your g/f specifically, 3rdalbum) save the file as .rtf or .doc if the instructor is going to insist on an actual Word format. .Rtf allows for formatting, but is probably about as compatible as you can get.

[jre6]

In India, the CBSE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CBSE) board has incorporated Linux in the syllabi of the students of Class 9. However, the amount of study material give is too less and anyone can start without reading the materials.(The things that are covered in the book, are just about how to start and quit a program). Perhaps because all the IT teaching staff and writers in India are die hard Windows fans.

Personally, I think that schools should use Linux, but it is hard to implement due to the reasons stated above.

[darkstarbyte]

I don't really have a problem with schools using Windows, but I do think they should be using a freely-available office suite. I hate seeing my girlfriend downloading documents from her uni in Microsoft Word format, because not everybody can afford a $200 copy of Word. Especially not her.

Yes, Openoffice can open and save Word documents, but even I have qualms about saving back to Word format from within Openoffice because things might get lost in translation I've imported Word documents into Openoffice.org and lost formatting; this was recently too.

As far as I'm concerned, all documents should be given to students as paper or PDF, and for editable documents there should be Word and ODF versions available.


Thats not what i am getting at what i am getting at is with all of these buget cuts linux is a great way

to go cheap lots of support and very few security problems.

[gemmakaru]

This thing about what everybody else uses seems a red herring. I mean my school used BBC Micros, not exactly de-rigour even then. and yet I still went on to work with windows.

[Grenage]

linux is a great way

to go cheap lots of support and very few security problems.


Schools are practically given MS products. Both sides win; the schools get the software they need, and the students leave knowing MS products - and people like what they know.

[Sylos]

Im not sure that familiarity with an OS makes a big difference. When we are teaching kids how to use computers at school we ought to be imparting a skills set that understands the principles of how applications etc work and how to use/manipulate them to certain ends. Most schools general IT class does not go into programming so the differences between the underlying systems doesnt matter.

If schools use linux then they can still teach people the basic skills of how to use applications etc and these skills can still be transferred to other systems that are at all similar. Some office settings use a rather different customized desktop on windows with things in weird places and odd programmes. In my oppinion that doesnt make your previous experience irrelevant.

Just my opinion.

[Grenage]

I agree with you; an understanding of a concept, rather than a product, is a much better way of doing things. I've come across countless people who just stopped, confused, because an option they were expecting wasn't where it used to be; It didn't seem to occur to them to actually 'look' around. These weren't stupid people, they've just only ever used one product, and possibly only one or two versions of it.

[cpmman]

Schools are practically given MS products. Both sides win; the schools get the software they need, and the students leave knowing MS products - and people like what they know.

I know MS products and I do NOT like what I know.

From cp/m and GEM to SV4 I have preferred non MS products. I am now retired after 38 years in computing (mostly mainframe but including Solaris etc.) and now have Ubuntu in Wubi, Virtualbox (inside XP, Vista, W7 and Ubuntu), and on partitions main drive and external USB drives (I love testing in all situations).

Yes - Linux should be taught in schools alongside all Operating Systems available free or at low cost to schools - eventually the best will float to the top.

[Grenage]

I know MS products and I do NOT like what I know.

I'm the same, but the members of this forum are hardly a good cross-section of society.

[cgroza]

One question. Do the teachers know how to teach Linux? I know that teachers in other countries are skilled but in Moldavia half of the teachers know only copy paste!

[cpmman]

I'm the same, but the members of this forum are hardly a good cross-section of society.

Surely the OP question is about changing the perceptions of society to educate them by introducing the unfamiliar and telling them they have a choice - they are not obliged to accept mediocrity.

[TNT1]

Thats not what i am getting at what i am getting at is with all of these buget cuts linux is a great way

to go cheap lots of support and very few security problems.

Exactly. Come to third world. Two problems, no computers, and no money for an overpriced OS, not to mention all the associated costs of other software.

And the argument to let kids use a OS that they will encounter IRL is just stupid. If they start using Linux early, at lots of schools, more people IRL will be using it. Oh, and on my perfectly working laptop, running only Ubuntu, some people don't even know its not Windows.

[sdowney717]

Come to third world and find spotty electricity or none at all.
is there a fourth world country designation because that is life for billions of people.

The laptop for children had a good idea putting those hand cranked generators inside the PC.

[darkstarbyte]

I know MS products and I do NOT like what I know.

From cp/m and GEM to SV4 I have preferred non MS products. I am now retired after 38 years in computing (mostly mainframe but including Solaris etc.) and now have Ubuntu in Wubi, Virtualbox (inside XP, Vista, W7 and Ubuntu), and on partitions main drive and external USB drives (I love testing in all situations).

Yes - Linux should be taught in schools alongside all Operating Systems available free or at low cost to schools - eventually the best will float to the top.

In my opion they should be taught side by side till one wins or just give the students the option on some to the computers. Which can also save money. So teachers can keep there pay check stable I was looking at one high school who bought 60 brand new computers at $1000 dollars a peace no grants or scholorships provided so it was out of the pocket. also that school has been facing alot of cut back ever since then. They could have put linux on about 10 and saved 600 dallars in ms software.

[cprofitt]

Im not sure that familiarity with an OS makes a big difference.

Just my opinion.

The issue with familiarity does not apply to the student, but it does to the instructor. If the instructor is not familiar with the system they will not be able to teach it well. Also, when teaching a subject other than computer science where the computer is just a tool in the learning process familiarity allows for greater productivity.

In general the issue is not price for the educational institution; Microsoft gives a very nice discount. In the states the other issue is that 'aid' money is put in buckets such as hardware, software, etc. Removing the cost with FOSS software could result in money that could not be spent because it is now in the 'wrong' bucket. Though to be honest if an educational institution was going to depend on Linux they might want to have a support contract and that should come from the 'software' bucket.

As an advocate who has presented at educational technology shows I have a strong opinion formed from discussing the issue with hordes of educators. The problem is not just the OS, but the applications that run on top of it. My current belief is that we should first advocate for a switch to FOSS applications that are cross platform (OS X, Windows, Linux); once the application stack can move to a new OS the resistance is no longer there.

Regardless of what OS is used in the non-comp sci curriculum I do agree that Linux should be taught along side other OSes.

[sataris]

I think schools should be using linux its cheaper especialy during massive budget cuts and more secure. I talked to alot of sysadmins and they tell me the same thing over and over if linux gets as big as windows it will start getting viruses but i keep saying is that you have file permissions to prevent this and its open source so if one does appear you can patch the thing because they have alot of programmers working for them so put them to work then they bring up the argument that the amount of linux viruses has doubled in recent years so i do the math linux controls about 3% or so of all computers and they say it has about 100 viruses and windows has about 90% of all the computers and has about 1,122,311 written in 2007 alone right according to

http://www.cknow.com/cms/vtutor/number-of-viruses.html

for linux

http://www.desktoplinux.com/articles/AT3307459975.html

some anti-viruses have reported 30,000 new ones every day.
90 / 3 = 30 and 1,122,311 / 100 = 11223.11 see how much higher the ratio is opposed to the amount of people use it is there are more than 11223.11 times more virus for windows than linux so linux does not have more viruses than windows.


Give me your opion please.
Having went through Elementary, Middle, and Highschool computer courses, I can say no. Not ever.

The "tech" guys that work for these schools have some garbage Associates Degree in Computer Networking or some crap and are 99% useless.

The "teachers" that actually teach computers are more prone to read word for word out of their lesson plan, as they can only do email using Outlook themselves.

Installing linux in western schools that are NOT Technology based, would only
a.) Cause the already horrendous grades fall lower as both the teachers and students would likely be lost
b.) Cause curiosity in a very small amount of students, but turn 90% or so of them away from every touching anything thats not Microsoft
c.) Create even more script kiddie omg1337 haxxors.

[Grenage]

Surely the OP question is about changing the perceptions of society to educate them by introducing the unfamiliar and telling them they have a choice

Indeed, and I imagine that most people would choose not to learn an OS that they will probably never need to use again.


they are not obliged to accept mediocrity.

Alas, a personal opinion. I think that the main MS products (Office/Windows) are very good, and by far the best solution for most business environments.

[Shompol]

This is a recurring discussion, but...


Not really, or at least primarily. Windows is what most of the world uses, so it makes sense that they learn something they can actually use. Some Linux schooling would probably be beneficial, and Macs not so much.

That's not going to be the case by the time those kids become adults. The world is changing, I would say to the better. I think US is going to be the last to switch, but it's the world you are talking about.

Look at IE vs Firefox. Windows will eventually follow the suite. Linux only became sufficiently user friendly in the last few years. I expect things to change either withing a decade, or when the current generation of "we only know windows" sysadmins becomes extinct :)

[darkstarbyte]

Only if its marketed right like firefox.

[sataris]

I have rethought (slightly) my previous post.

Linux should only be tought outside of college/tech schools/or advanced highschools (college prep tech schools) when Linux manages to secure ~20%+ of the market share for desktop operating systems.

Maybe then, all of the problems, issues, and fractured communities will be looked at with serious eyes.

Or you never know, if google made Goobuntu available for widespread usage, then maybe it would be viable.

[SuperPetRalf]

Dont schools and educational facilities get massive and I mean massive discounts, As a charity I paid about £30 for Windows Server 2008 and the CALs are about a £1 each, and thats not in bulk. So the cost isn't such a big issue.

I think it is more important to give Children what they are likely to use in real life, as remember many of them 90%, I recon are not and dont want to be particularly tech savvy. How many of you have worked on support and got a call along the lines of:

"help me, I'VE LOST THE INTERNET!"
"Sorry, you've lost the internet?"
"YES!"
"...umm"
"That little blue 'E', I can't find it anywhere"

Secondly if it become as popular as Windows then I think the amount of attack will go up, not necessarily infections, remember there are other ways to attack PCs.

Still thats just my opinion, please comment

SuperP

[mikewhatever]

There is a major movement towards schools using Linux in Russia. Apparently, the Education Ministry is not going to provide MS software to schools after Dec 31 2010. After that date, schools can either use Linux or negotiate deals with MS on their own.
The advantages are numerous, but the one often overlooked is - it's free to use and redistribute, so that, not only schools, but also students can get the software.

[puddytat1975]

I'm new to Linux/Ubuntu and don't yet have any strong opinions on this topic, but I believe that being exposed to a variety of computers/OS's is a great opportunity for students to learn.

Looking back at my school years I realize I grew up during an amazing time technologically. In elementary school back in the mid-80s we used Apples in school. Our first home computer was an old Tandy running DOS and I wasn't exposed to Windows until high school.

Kids these days don't seem to get the kind of variety we older people got growing up and I don't believe that's a good thing. I say the more exposure they get to as many different platforms as possible the better. It all leads to a better understanding of computers in general.

[CraigPaleo]

I'm new to Linux/Ubuntu and don't yet have any strong opinions on this topic, but I believe that being exposed to a variety of computers/OS's is a great opportunity for students to learn.

Looking back at my school years I realize I grew up during an amazing time technologically. In elementary school back in the mid-80s we used Apples in school. Our first home computer was an old Tandy running DOS and I wasn't exposed to Windows until high school.

Kids these days don't seem to get the kind of variety we older people got growing up and I don't believe that's a good thing. I say the more exposure they get to as many different platforms as possible the better. It all leads to a better understanding of computers in general.


I agree. I don't think it'd be a disadvantage at all to use Linux in the classroom. It would only broaden their horizons.

Similarly to you, when I was in school, it was Apple CLI computers and then Macs that were ubiquitous in classrooms across the U.S. We didn't have any problems switching to DOS and then Windows afterward and we had knowledge of Macs to boot.

[cprofitt]

Having went through Elementary, Middle, and Highschool computer courses, I can say no. Not ever.

The "tech" guys that work for these schools have some garbage Associates Degree in Computer Networking or some crap and are 99% useless.

1. Generalization that does not fit all situation
2. Degrees have little to no relevance in determining the ability of people


The "teachers" that actually teach computers are more prone to read word for word out of their lesson plan, as they can only do email using Outlook themselves.

1. Generalization that does not fit all situation



Installing linux in western schools that are NOT Technology based, would only
a.) Cause the already horrendous grades fall lower as both the teachers and students would likely be lost
b.) Cause curiosity in a very small amount of students, but turn 90% or so of them away from every touching anything thats not Microsoft
c.) Create even more script kiddie omg1337 haxxors.

b) So they should not use Apple products either?
c) Knowing Linux does not aid one in becoming a better haxxor

I really hope you were being humorous.

[beew]

The goal of school computer science classes should be to teach conceptual and transferable skills rather than to train students to use specific softwares like word processors (do it in a business course or something) I think Linux has a much better environment for students to learn the more conceptual aspects of computer programming and organization.

On the other hand, I have a genuine problem with schools being used as free facilities to train future MS employees and groom tomorrow's paying M$ customers. This is tax payers subsidizing the profit of M$. Imagine how much MS would have to pay for such a massive marketing campaign if the cost has to come from its own pocket.

MS of course is very aware of this. This is why it offers deep discounts to schools and students in the name of supporting education while in fact trying to lock the next generation of users to Ms products. In the developing world, where open source is a very attractive solution for education,--and computing in general,-- MS is practically "donating" windows for free in order to secure a market and undermine open source,--and whatever small expenses that incurred would probably be considered 'charity' hence tax deductible too.

[Grenage]

The goal of school computer science classes should be to teach conceptual and transferable skills rather than to train students to use specific softwares like word processors

Agreed, but we're talking about schools in general, not just a computer course.

[JDShu]

I also used to think that students should primarily learn the applications they're likely to need in real life. After helping out teach Microsoft Access and Microsoft Excel to business students, I've changed my stance slightly on this.

People who are good with computers can learn any kind of application easily. For these people, it doesn't matter what OS, or Office Suite, or whatever they use because they just need to know the concepts and they'll pick up any program easily.

People who are NO good with computers are not going to be able to keep up with updated programs anyway. Somebody who learned Access 2007 is not going to be able to use Access 2010 easily at all. (The two aren't even compatible) They basically start from square one even though its just an updated program of the same program. Therefore, equally, it doesn't matter what you teach them in school because chances are in the future, they're not going to encounter the current iteration of the program you teach them.

Hence, in both cases, you might as well use Linux or some other free OS because its cheaper and the practicality of teaching MS is exaggerated anyway.

[kamaboko]

MS is practically "donating" windows for free in order to secure a market and undermine open source,--and whatever small expenses that incurred would probably be considered 'charity' hence tax deductible too.

Apple tried the same thing and failed. The bottom line is that no one (Apple or a Linux distribution) has made a good enough compelling argument for these schools to switch. Sure, there might be a pocket of change here and there, but for the most part they haven't done it. Honestly, I could care less. God, darn near everything on this BB regarding MS is a conspiracy: "They're donating software to the space station so they can take over the universe". It's soooooooo tiring to see these posts reappear every few weeks.

[Frogs Hair]

Schools should prepare students for life and at present that includes a working knowledge of windows operating systems. I think Linux should be taught as well and though the operating system is free the computers to run it on and qualified instructors are not.

The change over and setup is certainly not free not to mention training the teachers to use it . Some sort of certification program for teachers would be needed and paid for. Not to say this is impossible just improbable.

[beew]

God, darn near everything on this BB regarding MS is a conspiracy: "They're donating software to the space station so they can take over the universe". It's soooooooo tiring to see these posts reappear every few weeks.What the heck are you talking about? This is not conspiracy theory, it is business 101. Geeze. You think only people on welfare are fleecing the tax payers? You think MS makes these "donations" out the spirit of generosity? Don't be naive.

[linux18]

Edited

[RiceMonster]

4 computers at the local community college are dual booting ubuntu, if only the college knew...

Are you suggesting you installed it without their permission?

[mikewhatever]

Schools should prepare students for life and at present that includes a working knowledge of windows operating systems. I think Linux should be taught as well and though the operating system is free the computers to run it on and qualified instructors are not.

So basically, you are saying that schools should prepare students for life at present, future doesn't matter. Consider, that by the time 15 year olds are out of school, software they had learned to use would be outdated, and they'll have to relearn.


The change over and setup is certainly not free not to mention training the teachers to use it . Some sort of certification program for teachers would be needed and paid for. Not to say this is impossible just improbable.

Same goes with any OS. Do you think setting up Windows, or training stuff to use it is free? The cost of deploying Linux in organization may be hight, but it's a one time payment compared to perpetual renewal of MS licenses.

[linux18]

Edited

[MooPi]

A couple of posts in this thread indicate that Windows is the first choice because of real world implications. I'm in disagreement with this. Windows system don't teach much other than to follow specific paths to applications. Applications is what should be standard and not the OS. The OS is an ethereal layer that most users are unaware. With that being said I'm going to contradict myself slightly. Office applications should have an interchangeable file extensions that don't limit cross platform usage. Microsoft Office is not interchangeable out of the box.

[beew]

linux18


yes I am, then I tell that to every student that complains about the school running windows 7 on a 1.5 GHz Pentium 4 with 768MB of ram.
I'm not advocating breaking school policy, just wondering why complain so much when you can at least run a live usb. Richard Stallman would probably do it if things were different.

Are you a teacher or a student? (I wouldn't presume 18 in your handle necessarily mean your age.:)) I mean, if you are a student you probably wouldn't be able to install anything in the school's computer for chances are you don't have admin privilege. If you are a teacher then you can probably ask the school for a permission. Is there a contract with MS that would prevent the school from using other OS? (like some school cafe only sell Pepsi or Coke but not both)

Richard Stallman would definitely not choose Ubuntu. Too much non -free content. :)

[Grenage]

yes I am, then I tell that to every student that complains about the school running windows 7 on a 1.5 GHz Pentium 4 with 768MB of ram.
I'm not advocating breaking school policy, just wondering why complain so much when you can at least run a live usb. Richard Stallman would probably do it if things were different.

Lol; if I worked there, you'd be banned from touching a school computer ever again. Total disregard, messing with kit that isn't yours to mess with.

[linux18]

linux18

.

Are you a teacher or a student? (I wouldn't presume 18 in your handle necessarily mean your age.:)) I mean, if you are a student you probably wouldn't be able to install anything in the school's computer for chances are you don't have admin privilege. If you are a teacher then you can probably ask the school for a permission. Is there a contract with MS that would prevent the school from using other OS? (like some school cafe only sell Pepsi or Coke but not both)

Richard Stallman would definitely not choose Ubuntu. Too much non -free content. :)

actually the 18 is my age, and you can dual-boot without admin privaleges, and stallman would choose fedora



Lol; if I worked there, you'd be banned from touching a school computer ever again. Total disregard, messing with kit that isn't yours to mess with.

considering that your absolutely right, I have no argument

[Frogs Hair]

So basically, you are saying that schools should prepare students for life at present, future doesn't matter. Consider, that by the time 15 year olds are out of school, software they had learned to use would be outdated, and they'll have to relearn.

I just stared school again this week and the new students coming from high schools that use windows. My collage an most in my state use Windows . The bulk of employers use Windows and I don't know what will be in use in ten years.


Same goes with any OS. Do you think setting up Windows, or training stuff to use it is free? The cost of deploying Linux in organization may be hight, but it's a one time payment compared to perpetual renewal of MS licenses.

I was just pointing out that there is cost , which is sometimes forgotten. The school districts decide what equipment and teaching materials are to be used and are likely to be consistent with those around them.

[beew]

Liniux18

Ok you meant you boot from a usb or an external hard drive. That is totally ok imo since you don't change anything in the computer. :) Actually even Fedora is not "free" enough for RS. You can find a list of distro he approves on the FSF website. :)

[Grenage]

considering that your absolutely right, I have no argument

I commend you for saying that, and not coming up with the usual rubbish about fighting the good fight.

[CrimsonBizarre]

My school has switched to using iMacs with Windows XP in a dual boot with OSX. Windows 7 is used in graphics and design lessons due to the fact Windows supports the most software and hardware.

We are primarily taught in OSX now, and I think the school has done this because they have speculated that, with the massive rise of Apple recently, it will be them who hold the largest portion of the computer market in the future. It may also be because they think that "everyone can use windows" and so teach on Apple because it teaches something different. I dunno.

I'm just throwing this in here because of the amount of people saying that you can ONLY every use Windows in schools (for whatever reason)

[linux18]

Liniux18

Ok you meant you boot from a usb or an external hard drive. That is totally ok imo since you don't change anything in the computer. :) Actually even Fedora is not "free" enough for RS. You can find a list of distro he approves on the FSF website. :)
No, I did dual boot them for convience, but regular people can use a persistent usb if they want, and richard stallman would like slackware

[linux18]

I commend you for saying that, and not coming up with the usual rubbish about fighting the good fight.
only legitimate linux victories add to the good fight, otherwise I'm just breaking school policy, which I am, but don't endorse. I hope I don't get a 3rd warning in as many weeks for that unless everyone replying me is willing to edit their post to sunshine, lollipops, and puppies then we can all forget about this

[Grenage]

I can't see someone getting a warning for off-forum activities; that would be mental. ;)

[Spice Weasel]

Microsoft have a massive monopoly on schools that won't stop any time soon. Especially in primary or secondary schools. You don't believe me?
They pump millions and millions into public education as well as giving schools free copies of Windows. This seems a bit pointless, no? They could be charging. The truth is, they'd rather have young students using Windows than any other operating system even if it means a loss for them. Because of advertising. If the person grows up using Windows, will they ever want to use anything else? They'll be used to it.

Subtle advertising to future generations.

[samalex]

I haven't read all the replies, so this might be in there someplace. Honestly unless you're going to school to maintain computers and need to learn the inter workings of Windows specifically, you learn how to use a GUI, not one particular OS. So if a student worked with Linux using Gnome or KDE at school, whether they use Linux, Mac, or OSX at home, they'll get enoguh experience with point, click, and drag plus using a windowed GUI to use any OS. Yeah they might have to do alittle quick learning on a new system (close buttons, min/max, etc), but it's not like 10-15 years ago where the concept of a GUI was completely foreign.

Also at the rate of change on all the desktops (except Apple who's pretty much had the same desktop for 10 years now), whatever a student learns now will be obsolete in a few years. Diversity needs to become the norm, so for the argument that students need to have Windows at school because that's what most businesses use is BS. I can see this argument with MS Office maybe, but not an OS... and MS Office will work on OSX and mostly on Linux via Wine.

And with Cloud Computing becoming the big buzz now'days, even MS Office is going web-based, so the desktop OS will become even more of a moot point. Running Linux on the desktop has less maintenance with it than Windows, so even more of a reason to run it :)

Sam

[KiwiNZ]

Professional Linux support does not come cheap. Schools need maximum up time for their system, therefore they do not need "some guy" from down the road fixing them or go searching Forums for support.

The cost of conversion is high, the cost of retraining is high. Therefore the hit their already stretched budgets would be exclusive for any change.

[samalex]

Professional Linux support does not come cheap. Schools need maximum up time for their system, therefore they do not need "some guy" from down the road fixing them or go searching Forums for support.

The cost of conversion is high, the cost of retraining is high. Therefore the hit their already stretched budgets would be exclusive for any change.

There's going to be cost someplace..
Windows - Virus/malware scanners must be purchased and reloading would be needed fairly often as kids hose-up systems
OSX - Very low maintenance but large up-front cost on hardware. My wife works for a school that's all mac, and with probably 100+ systems plus numerous Mac servers, it's all maintained by one guy who's a full time teacher on top of maintaining the computers
Linux - OS costs are zero, hardware costs are low, but cost would need to go into maintenance unless someone on staff (or student) can maintain the systems.

In the end I still see Linux as the lowest cost solution given there's someone on hand to maintain it. If not the maintenance is a cost regardless of which OS is used. Up-time and reliability though would be better on Mac or Linux from my experience.

Sam

[beew]

KIwinz


Professional Linux support does not come cheap. Schools need maximum up time for their system, therefore they do not need "some guy" from down the road fixing them or go searching Forums for support.

You think you don't need a tech support guy to run windows?

[kamaboko]

What the heck are you talking about? This is not conspiracy theory, it is business 101. Geeze. You think only people on welfare are fleecing the tax payers? You think MS makes these "donations" out the spirit of generosity? Don't be naive.

I'm very, very far from being naive. Not all donations come with strings attached. For example, my dad had a number of large commercial bakeries. Every week he donated extra product to homeless shelters. Do you think he was expecting broke, homeless people to buy his products when they went to the store? No. Furthermore, he didn't even take the potential tax write off. So yes, companies do make donations out of generosity. To you I say, don't be so cynical. But..as I said in the earlier post, if it involves Microsoft...it's a conspiracy, or has some bend to it to corrupt the world and knock it off its axis.

[JDShu]

KIwinz
You think you don't need a tech support guy to run windows?

Didn't you know that?

Nah, I think the idea is that a windows admin is cheaper than a linux admin, especially if a school is *already* hiring a windows admin.

[linux18]

There's going to be cost someplace..
Windows - Virus/malware scanners must be purchased and reloading would be needed fairly often as kids hose-up systems
OSX - Very low maintenance but large up-front cost on hardware. My wife works for a school that's all mac, and with probably 100+ systems plus numerous Mac servers, it's all maintained by one guy who's a full time teacher on top of maintaining the computers
Linux - OS costs are zero, hardware costs are low, but cost would need to go into maintenance unless someone on staff (or student) can maintain the systems.

In the end I still see Linux as the lowest cost solution given there's someone on hand to maintain it. If not the maintenance is a cost regardless of which OS is used. Up-time and reliability though would be better on Mac or Linux from my experience.

Sam
the real solution (and the one many schools use) is deepfreeze which keeps a windows install new forever. that keeps costs down to $30 per computer and is very hard to break (from the windows side of the computer) admin only necessary part time for upgrades

[hhh]

<ot>
...and stallman would choose fedora...
Wrong guess, he uses an OS based on Ubuntu...
http://richard.stallman.usesthis.com/
http://www.gnewsense.org/ </ot>

[98cwitr]

I dont think schools should use Linux exclusively, but have it available for those that want to learn.

[barney385]

For financial reasons, absolutely.

Our current .gov and state and local .gov's have no other options.

Or, lay off a hundred thousand teachers nation wide.

Common sense is not a priority anymore.

[Dayofswords]

k-5, yes

6-8, yeah, i dont remember anything i did on a computer that couldnt be done on linux

9-12, maybe 25% windows, 75% linux. there was some windows only things that needed windows

which linux distro? i would say one of these: Ubuntu, Fedora, Debain (stable). when using ubuntu or debian, Apt-cacher is used to minimize downloading when updating. and a clonezilla server going

[schreber]

In terms of cost I would say YES but as many of you have said it would be impractical for most users unless they were introduced to Linux at an early age like they were to Windows/MAC.

Most if not all of the things I've seen college student do/use on university owned PCs can easily be replicated on a PC running Linux (minus SPSS (I'm aware of a Linux version of SPSS, Geo Mapping and/or more curriculum specific tools) costing the university next to nothing other than a little training/support for their staff.

[KiwiNZ]

KIwinz



You think you don't need a tech support guy to run windows?

I was trying to point out there is a misconception that Linux support is low cost for Organisations.
It is not low cost, in many cases it is higher than that for Windows.

[darkstarbyte]

I wonder how many places would go bank rupt if every one wanted linux

People are adicted to windows so much that some people who dont want anything new still use windows 95.

[linux18]

I wonder how many places would go bank rupt if every one wanted linux

People are adicted to windows so much that some people who dont want anything new still use windows 95.
windows 3.11 forever!!!!! :)

[aysiu]

This is a recurring discussion, but...


Not really, or at least primarily. Windows is what most of the world uses, so it makes sense that they learn something they can actually use. Some Linux schooling would probably be beneficial, and Macs not so much. I disagree, especially since I never learned Windows in school, and I easily know more about Windows than 95% of the people I work with.

More details here:
Teach kids computer skills, not computer programs (http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntucat/teach-kids-computer-skills-not-computer-programs/)

[darkstarbyte]

I disagree, especially since I never learned Windows in school, and I easily know more about Windows than 95% of the people I work with.

More details here:
Teach kids computer skills, not computer programs (http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntucat/teach-kids-computer-skills-not-computer-programs/)

Does that mean you work with people who call the internet "The little blue e"

[Nick_Jinn]

This is a recurring discussion, but...


Not really, or at least primarily. Windows is what most of the world uses, so it makes sense that they learn something they can actually use. Some Linux schooling would probably be beneficial, and Macs not so much.


So, students wont 'actually be able to use' Linux, because most people use Windows? I dont think that argument holds water.

If anything, Linux would be a more educational experience. They can learn to use Windows anywhere, and it doesnt require that much learning. Learning Linux is actually an educational experience.

Many of the programs are the same or similar. I use Photoshop in Linux rather than Windows. OpenOffice is a good free alternative.


I think schools should have a mix of computers, but most of the time students are not learning to 'use a computer', they are using the computer skills they already have to do research, print documents, run school programs, ect.....If its a class to teach people to use WIndows, then you need Windows computers, but the most common use of computers on campus is to use a web browser, check email, or browse the library catalog for doing research.

Why would a windows computer be any better than a linux computer for the school library?

The vast majority of students dont learn to use the computer at school, they learn at home and simply use the computer for educational related activities....like searching for articles or printing out their homework.


Linux has some advantages in that its more compatible with formats that windows cant read, and yet can read windows partitions just fine.



Installing Linux might keep them from using the computers to play World of Warcraft, and linux has TONS of educational related material in the repositories which are not at your fingertips on a windows machine.

[Austin25]

Absolutely: tax money is wasted on hundreds of Windows licenses per school, as well as students need to learn how to use Linux.

[slooksterpsv]

I believe schools should be using both. Teach the kids how to use both OpenOffice and Microsoft Office; use Windows for the main computer concepts/typing class, then put another (REQUIRED) class and call it Linux Essentials or that. Teach Ubuntu (no cli, disable the terminal and ttyx actually) and show them how to use OpenOffice there as well as other essential utilities.

Programming in Java would be prime on Linux as well.

[Austin25]

I believe schools should be using both. Teach the kids how to use both OpenOffice and Microsoft Office; use Windows for the main computer concepts/typing class, then put another (REQUIRED) class and call it Linux Essentials or that. Teach Ubuntu (no cli, disable the terminal and ttyx actually) and show them how to use OpenOffice there as well as other essential utilities.

Programming in Java would be prime on Linux as well.
Actually, you would not have to disable cli, as nobody would have the administrative password. If they were smart enough to get the password, then move them to a higher level class that teaches system administration. (Not administration of the school, administration of a single or group of other computers.)

[uRock]

How much does a certified Linux IT Admin cost compared to the basic IT guy that only know Windows?

[KiwiNZ]

How much does a certified Linux IT Admin cost compared to the basic IT guy that only know Windows?

In many cases Linux Admins are Certified Unix Eng and they don't come cheap.

[uRock]

In many cases Linux Admins are Certified Unix Eng and they don't come cheap.
That is what I was thinking. Back when I got my free copy of the $3999 Windows Server 2008 from my school's MSDNAA, the guy in charge explained to me how it is cheaper to have the expensive OS that can be easily configured, whereas the Linux Server admins would cost way more in the long run. I figured this would also be true in school applications. I think most schools go with Apple because of the service plans and the lack of having to hire as many IT people.

[KiwiNZ]

That is what I was thinking. Back when I got my free copy of the $3999 Windows Server 2008 from my school's MSDNAA, the guy in charge explained to me how it is cheaper to have the expensive OS that can be easily configured, whereas the Linux Server admins would cost way more in the long run. I figured this would also be true in school applications. I think most schools go with Apple because of the service plans and the lack of having to hire as many IT people.

I cannot reveal much , but my wife is currently working with the Education sector here with their review of IT . There is a roll out of Fibre to all schools and a consideration of Cloud services.
She is a Senior Exec at IBM so she has seen a lot of schools cost structures and any move to Linux would counter productive.

Moves to cloud when he fibre roll out is done is a good idea though.

[uRock]

I cannot reveal much , but my wife is currently working with the Education sector here with their review of IT . There is a roll out of Fibre to all schools and a consideration of Cloud services.
She is a Senior Exec at IBM so she has seen a lot of schools cost structures and any move to Linux would counter productive.

Moves to cloud when he fibre roll out is done is a good idea though.
Fiber is great, but the NICs are supper expensive. My Fiber Optics teacher also works for the local cable company and I was amazed by the capabilities and the prices. Too bad nobody in my area is looking for entry level Fiber Techs.

[Merk42]

Concerning the use of MS Office in schools.... it comes back to the same point, the students are currently most likely to encounter this office suite in the workforce, and once you consider the educational rate at which such institutions get licensing, it just makes sense. One way to circumvent the compatibility issues would to have a user (I'm referring to your g/f specifically, 3rdalbum) save the file as .rtf or .doc if the instructor is going to insist on an actual Word format. .Rtf allows for formatting, but is probably about as compatible as you can get.
It almost seems like a self fulfilling prophecy

Schools choose $program because that's what they'll see in the workforce
The workforce chooses $program because that's what their employees learned in school

[Dustin2128]

I've been thinking of trying to convince my school to swap to linux partially. There are these laptops used only for browsing, research, and printing that are rather old, running windows xp or vista. Used them in class the other day and they were so slow it was, in my opinion, actually counter productive. If I were able to convince the IT department to swap to linux (probably ubuntu, mint, or pinguy OS) it'd not only save them thousands in upgrade costs, it'd give everyone a well rounded education and boost productivity. If your argument is that its what they're most likely to encounter in life then you're only perpetuating a vicious cycle that needs to be broken. To quote the FSF, public schools teaching 'computer usage' should not just be teaching students to use the products of one company.

@ Merk42
Exactly!

[KiwiNZ]

I've been thinking of trying to convince my school to swap to linux partially. There are these laptops used only for browsing, research, and printing that are rather old, running windows xp or vista. Used them in class the other day and they were so slow it was, in my opinion, actually counter productive. If I were able to convince the IT department to swap to linux (probably ubuntu, mint, or pinguy OS) it'd not only save them thousands in upgrade costs, it'd give everyone a well rounded education. If your argument is that its what they're most likely to encounter in life then you're only perpetuating a vicious cycle that needs to be broken. To quote the FSF, public schools teaching 'computer usage' should not just be teaching students to use the products of one company.

As others have said in this thread it will COST them not save them. Read my previous post.

[uRock]

My daughter wants to try Windows, because her school uses Apples and her parents use Ubuntu. I tried to explain that there aren't many free games and it just runs slower. But her argument that won the battle is that she gets to watch Netflix on the PC with her headphones on and I don't have to hear Dora's back pack song ever again.:D

[Nick_Jinn]

I am not convinced that it would be costly to use a combination of Linux and Windows and maybe some apple computers.

Linux can help breath new life into obsolete hardware. Its not like you have to go out and buy new Linux computers. You can set up dual operating systems on your existing obsolete computers. This can save them from the junk yard and reduce your computer expenses.

Of course you will need some newer computers for the computer lab, and its not THAT expensive to find somebody to maintain them. Any computer guy worth his salt can manage the basics of Mac, Windows, Linux, and Unix.

For basic stuff like web browsing, email, library catalogs....an older computer running a more lite weight distro could be the answer.

[KiwiNZ]

Any computer guy worth his salt can manage the basics of Mac, Windows, Linux, and Unix.
.

And Certified Professionals have been cleaning up disasters left by those guys for years. IBM NZ has just finished cleaning up a huge mess at a school created by a " Computer Guy worth his salt".

[uRock]

I am not convinced that it would be costly to use a combination of Linux and Windows and maybe some apple computers.

Linux can help breath new life into obsolete hardware. Its not like you have to go out and buy new Linux computers. You can set up dual operating systems on your existing obsolete computers. This can save them from the junk yard and reduce your computer expenses.

Of course you will need some newer computers for the computer lab, and its not THAT expensive to find somebody to maintain them. Any computer guy worth his salt can manage the basics of Mac, Windows, Linux, and Unix.

For basic stuff like web browsing, email, library catalogs....an older computer running a more lite weight distro could be the answer.
Most school boards only employ a handful of IT workers that drive around fixing printers and such. They don't have time to deploy a mass changeover of operating systems. When schools make major changeovers, they usually contract consultants to to the leg work. This is where the price comes into play. And I have met quite a few IT people that will jump down your throat in a heartbeat if you mention Linux, because they don't know anything about it and they don't want to.

I am hopeful that the day will come that schools will have an affordable option to buy into a contract with Canonical and remote support for all of their training systems, but I don't think it will happen any time soon. PC manufacturers would have to start building systems specifically for Ubuntu. This is why Apple wins the bids. Their systems are built for their OS and they can guarantee the ability to fix software problems when they arise.

[KingYaba]

Schools should teach students how to use Windows, Linux, and OS X. They should also teach them how to use Google Docs, Open Office, and maybe Windows' word thing. I forgot what that's called. Notepad? :D

[jroa]

I've been thinking of trying to convince my school to swap to linux partially. There are these laptops used only for browsing, research, and printing that are rather old, running windows xp or vista. Used them in class the other day and they were so slow it was, in my opinion, actually counter productive. If I were able to convince the IT department to swap to linux (probably ubuntu, mint, or pinguy OS) it'd not only save them thousands in upgrade costs, it'd give everyone a well rounded education and boost productivity. If your argument is that its what they're most likely to encounter in life then you're only perpetuating a vicious cycle that needs to be broken. To quote the FSF, public schools teaching 'computer usage' should not just be teaching students to use the products of one company.

@ Merk42
Exactly!

If the computers are just used for browsing and printing, then the students would not be learning much at all if the computers ran Linux. The only things they would learn is that they have to use something besides IE for browsing and something other than MSO for documents.

[Nick_Jinn]

Do we need a 'mass changeover'?

I am not talking about changing the schools internal computer networks for offices and stuff, but many college computers are not even networked beyond their internet connection.


I think people are thinking within narrow parameters.


Yes, changing the entire working administration network for the school, the system where all the grades and office computers are linked to might initially cost more money than it would save.....lots of governments have SAVED money doing this in the long run, but without being in a city with lots of people who know how to manage it, it could be more trouble than its worth.



Having some linux computers on campus does not require this however. They can be stand alone computers that students have access to, used in computer labs and libraries. You dont need to route out the schools network or make massive administration changes, you can just throw a bunch of computers onto a desk, give them a wired or wireless network, let the students use them as they see fit.

With linux, old computers that barely run could get a new life and actually be fast enough to support a writter app and browse the internet.....currently many of these computers move at a crawl.

Some of you are thinking too big. You dont have to get rid of your windows network to salvage some computers for student use by installing linux on them.

[Nick_Jinn]

If the computers are just used for browsing and printing, then the students would not be learning much at all if the computers ran Linux. The only things they would learn is that they have to use something besides IE for browsing and something other than MSO for documents.


I disagree. There is a lot you can do with Linux that does not require an entire reworking of your network.


But then again, if the only thing you get out of it is that the internet loads faster and you can download educational apps from the repository and you can salvage some obsolete computers for the basics, isnt that enough? Do we have to teach people how to administer linux networks in order to see benefits from breathing new life into obsolete hardware? The basics are not good enough reason to save old computers with linux?

[Frogs Hair]

I have a question , do any free Linux distros come with professional support ? If the answer is no this would probably rule out any full scale conversion at least where I live . This does not exclude the use of free Linux as a learning tool . As someone wrote in this thread in different words a large school system would need a professionally supported distro in order to do a conversion on a large scale .

[uRock]

Do we need a 'mass changeover'?

I am not talking about changing the schools internal computer networks for offices and stuff, but many college computers are not even networked beyond their internet connection.


I think people are thinking within narrow parameters.


Yes, changing the entire working administration network for the school, the system where all the grades and office computers are linked to might initially cost more money than it would save.....lots of governments have SAVED money doing this in the long run, but without being in a city with lots of people who know how to manage it, it could be more trouble than its worth.



Having some linux computers on campus does not require this however. They can be stand alone computers that students have access to, used in computer labs and libraries. You dont need to route out the schools network or make massive administration changes, you can just throw a bunch of computers onto a desk, give them a wired or wireless network, let the students use them as they see fit.

With linux, old computers that barely run could get a new life and actually be fast enough to support a writter app and browse the internet.....currently many of these computers move at a crawl.

Some of you are thinking too big. You dont have to get rid of your windows network to salvage some computers for student use by installing linux on them.
I am thinking you don't have much knowledge of networking if you think that any school with computers in almost every classroom could just have everything randomly plugged in. It doesn't work that way. It isn't like your home network with a handful of computers connected to one insecure router. Routers and switches are set up in layers to make maintenance and security more simple. Especially if things are going to be maintained remotely.

[detroit/zero]

I think schools should be using linux its cheaper especialy during massive budget cuts and more secure. I talked to alot of sysadmins and they tell me the same thing over and over if linux gets as big as windows it will start getting viruses but i keep saying is that you have file permissions to prevent this and its open source so if one does appear you can patch the thing because they have alot of programmers working for them so put them to work then they bring up the argument that the amount of linux viruses has doubled in recent years so i do the math linux controls about 3% or so of all computers and they say it has about 100 viruses and windows has about 90% of all the computers and has about 1,122,311 written in 2007 alone right according to

http://www.cknow.com/cms/vtutor/number-of-viruses.html

for linux

http://www.desktoplinux.com/articles/AT3307459975.html

some anti-viruses have reported 30,000 new ones every day.
90 / 3 = 30 and 1,122,311 / 100 = 11223.11 see how much higher the ratio is opposed to the amount of people use it is there are more than 11223.11 times more virus for windows than linux so linux does not have more viruses than windows.


Give me your opion please.

My opinion is that schools should be teaching about run-on sentences in English classes before anybody starts to worry about which OS is installed on their computers.

Once that's out of the way, schools should be teaching students skills that are practical, applicable, and relevant to everyday life. Unfortunately, teaching Linux won't get very many people very far into the job market or prepare them for academic life at college or university, being as most of those institutions are currently using Windows or require papers/projects be submitted in proprietary formats (.doc, .xls, .ppt, etc..).

You can close your eyes and wish real hard, but the sad fact is that "if's" aren't reality.



If more workplaces and higher educational institutions switched to Open Office as opposed to Microsoft Office, proprietary formats wouldn't hinder wider open source software adoption and use.
If more workplaces and higher educational institutions, unhindered by proprietary software working with proprietary formats, switched to open source operating systems and software alternatives, even more workplaces and educational institutions would be free to follow suit.
If more workplaces and higher educational institutions switched to open source alternatives for operating systems and software, they would demand school boards around the country provide them with a candidate pool with the basic skills they require.
If GIMP didn't have such a ridiculously unintuitive and counterproductive interface, it might actually be a free and open, serious contender with Adobe's Photoshop - and finally we could put those money-grubbing, capitalist pigs and their Photo$hop out of business forever!!!!!!!!!!1

One domino falls after the other. All you'd have to do is get one big company or one big university to make the first plunge, and others would be sure to follow suit. But who's going to do that? What would be their incentive?

Besides all that - it's easy to say that schools should "teach Linux," but that's a pretty broad statement.

Which distro should schools use when they "teach Linux"? Slackware would be my pick (given its purist leanings) with Red Hat a close second, but imagine all the failing grades in those classes. Arch? Gentoo? Debian? Ubuntu?

You aren't suggesting that high schools, colleges, universities, governments, businesses and corporations should all be using Ubuntu? Are you kidding? What's the world supposed to do whenever Shuttleworth gets a bug in his hind end and decides he wants to move buttons around, or do a total revamp of the desktop GUI, or add/remove packages from the default install? Deal with it? Not likely.

The reason the world still uses Windows (despite all it's well-known faults and drawbacks and quirks and lackluster performance) and Shuttleworth and the rest of the Linux world can't even give their OS's away for free and claim a 1% total market share is because year after year, release after release, Windows is consistent. The Start button is in the same exact place since Windows 95. The Minimize/Restore/Close buttons are in the exact same place since the mid-to-late 80s. You set up an administrator account when you install and don't have to enter a password 500 times a day during normal use. Most importantly - you are able to use the entire OS, and do pretty much any thing you can imagine doing in a computer without ever opening up a terminal and hunting down commands and switches and syntax, no matter how obfuscated or convoluted the process. Even if you can't, chances are that there's a shareware/freeware/cracked version of something floating around on the internets that will do the job you want.

TL;DR Version: Nobody teaches it because nobody uses it. Nobody uses it because it's just as easy not to. Why download Linux when you can* download a cracked version of 7 with an activation patch and use what you already know? Why use Open Office when you can buy or download Microsoft Office? Why deal with GIMPs ridiculous interface when CS4 torrents are all over the place?




* I'm not condoning pirating software, rather, making an observation that this is what goes on in the world.

[uRock]

I have a question , do any free Linux distros come with professional support ? If the answer is no this would probably rule out any full scale conversion at least where I live . This does not exclude the use of free Linux as a learning tool . As someone wrote in this thread in different words a large school system would need a professionally supported distro in order to do a conversion on a large scale .
Canonical offers professional service plans and there are lots of localized firms that can maintain Linux systems, but they aren't cheap. I have a friend that works at one of these firms and lets just say that finances are not among his worries.

[Nick_Jinn]

I am thinking you don't have much knowledge of networking if you think that any school with computers in almost every classroom could just have everything randomly plugged in. It doesn't work that way. It isn't like your home network with a handful of computers connected to one insecure router. Routers and switches are set up in layers to make maintenance and security more simple. Especially if things are going to be maintained remotely.


I thought I made it clear that I wasnt talking about using these computers for networking.

These computers would be used like personal computers that everyone has access to.


What kind of software do you imagine needs to be on every computer that is supposedly so hard to implement?


We have linux computers on my college campus and it doesnt seem like its causing any problems.



Computers in every classroom? Usually the teacher has one, but only the computer and science labs have computers. More of the Math, Humanities, social science, ect, do not have computers in every classroom. In highschool very few classes had computers in them.

When I used the computers on campus, I rarely if ever used any software that required networking....maybe the library catalogs, but thats it. Mostly it was web browsing, email, printing, writting up documents, ect.....No that doesnt teach advanced computer use but that isnt the only point, and there is no reason why students cant experiment.


Whats the harm in having some un-networked computers for basic internet and document functions?

Why have my schools all had linux computers (networked I might add) without causing any problems?

[Frogs Hair]

Canonical offers professional service plans and there are lots of localized firms that can maintain Linux systems, but they aren't cheap. I have a friend that works at one of these firms and lets just say that finances are not among his worries.

Thanks ! Then question would be what would be more cost effective ? I think the idea of implementing a Linux conversion would get bogged down by politics before ever had a chance to get started . But you never know since saving money is on every bodies mind .

[Nick_Jinn]

Linux and Unix are also pretty big in a lot of private sectors. Its home personal use that they are behind in, but gaining.

I am not sure why people dont think that there are careers, especially future careers in linux, just because HOME users tend to use Windows.


And now there are in fact a huge segment of the population using Linux....on their PHONES. Mobile telecommunications are huge. Mobile computing is the future, and linux is a huge hit in the smartphone markets.

How is that not a viable and growing career future?

[aysiu]

I know of at least two schools in San Francisco that use Ubuntu: Creative Arts Charter and KIPP SF Bay Academy.
http://princessleia.com/journal/?p=3315
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Grantbow

There's a job opening right now at the Castilleja School for a Help Desk/Laptop Coordinator (http://www.castilleja.org/page.cfm?p=940104). Here's an excerpt:
Knowledge, Skills and Abilities
* Experience troubleshooting OS X Client, Windows Xp & Windows 7 & Linux Ubuntu Client You don't need a certification in Linux to manage Linux in schools. You just have to be able to roll up your sleeves and learn something new. If you're a tech support person at a school, it's not that difficult to learn and implement Linux. The tough part is convincing the administration, staff, and faculty that the change is for the best.

If they're too firmly entrenched in Microsoft Office, Microsoft OneNote, Adobe Creative Suite, or some other Windows-only or Windows- and Mac-only program, I doubt you'll be able to tell them it's worth the licensing cost savings to switch to Linux.

Linux can be great for breathing life into old computers, for setting up kiosks, or just for providing free or extremely low-cost computers to schools that wouldn't otherwise be able to afford computers.

The ACCRC (http://accrc.org/) does that for San Francisco Bay Area non-profits and schools:
Know someone who needs a computer?
Refurbished Computers
We give free refurbished computers to schools, non-profit organizations, and economically and/or physically disadvantaged individuals. Although our computers are all old enough that they were discarded by their previous owners, the ones that we refurbish are still perfectly adequate for most home, school, and office applications. Our refurbished systems all run a Free software GNU/Linux operating system.

To apply for one or more computers, please print one of our three placement applications:school, non-profit, or individual, and then fax, mail, or bring us the completed form.

[Nick_Jinn]

I agree entirely with aysiu. We have several linux computers at school (not included the windows computers which I installed Linux on secretly or as virtual machines)....they work just fine. No networking problems. They are just being used for the basics, not for staff or data bases, but they work.

[KiwiNZ]

I know of at least two schools in San Francisco that use Ubuntu: Creative Arts Charter and KIPP SF Bay Academy.
http://princessleia.com/journal/?p=3315
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Grantbow

There's a job opening right now at the Castilleja School for a Help Desk/Laptop Coordinator (http://www.castilleja.org/page.cfm?p=940104). Here's an excerpt: You don't need a certification in Linux to manage Linux in schools. You just have to be able to roll up your sleeves and learn something new. If you're a tech support person at a school, it's not that difficult to learn and implement Linux. The tough part is convincing the administration, staff, and faculty that the change is for the best.

If they're too firmly entrenched in Microsoft Office, Microsoft OneNote, Adobe Creative Suite, or some other Windows-only or Windows- and Mac-only program, I doubt you'll be able to tell them it's worth the licensing cost savings to switch to Linux.

Linux can be great for breathing life into old computers, for setting up kiosks, or just for providing free or extremely low-cost computers to schools that wouldn't otherwise be able to afford computers.

The ACCRC (http://accrc.org/) does that for San Francisco Bay Area non-profits and schools:

Real life experience gives a over whelming amount of evidence against this statement "You don't need a certification in Linux to manage Linux in schools. You just have to be able to roll up your sleeves and learn something new."

I showed it to my wife , I wont type exactly what she said here, lets just say she disagrees strongly.

[ParadoxBlue]

I know MS products and I do NOT like what I know.

From cp/m and GEM to SV4 I have preferred non MS products. I am now retired after 38 years in computing (mostly mainframe but including Solaris etc.) and now have Ubuntu in Wubi, Virtualbox (inside XP, Vista, W7 and Ubuntu), and on partitions main drive and external USB drives (I love testing in all situations).

Yes - Linux should be taught in schools alongside all Operating Systems available free or at low cost to schools - eventually the best will float to the top.

"The only dumb questions are the ones not asked."

Great sig, I completely agree...

[Gone fishing]

I'd say yes schools should use Linux not just train students to use MS applications, but now let me be a bit more thoughtful as it's not so simple.

At the school I work at in Lesotho we a currently run a mix of MS Windows XP and Opensuse. The IT department which is very familiar with Windows feels that it needs some Windows applications such as MS Access, Dreamweaver etc.

On our main server I'm running Opensuse, MS will not give us cheep software (I've asked MS South Africa)as we are in Poor Lesotho not the UK or even South Africa where it would be easy to get almost free software. However, this does not bother me unduly at least on the server as I think our Linux sever is better than MS sever, for example at the moment I'm running postfix and Squirrel mail and provide email for 600 students this would be prohibitively expensive using MS exchange. We run Squid Squidguard, ldap, nfs and Samba as the other main services the server provides to the workstations.

Workstations in the library which are largely unsupervised run Opensuse using ldap authentication the home directories being mounted in the users homes on the server using nfs.

In the computer rooms we dual boot Windows and Opensuse the Windows use samba authentication linked to ldap and roaming profiles also mounted on the server so that students can get their work whether they are in Windows or Linux. The Opensuse boot of the workstations, also has image of the XP instillation so if it gets corrupted we can use ntfs tools and recover Windows in about 10 minutes with all the applications installed etc.

The server also uses clam to scan and clean viruses off students home partitions this combined with running NOD32 on Windows means we don't have a virus problem.

Oh! before I started work at this school I'd barely used a computer so the learning curves been quite steep at points!

[Legendary_Bibo]

The college I go to offers a Linux class, and I thought about taking it until I realized it was about the business part of it. Bleh!

It makes you learn Red Hat and Fedora, basic command line stuff, and how to use the applications among other things related to business. Well here's the actual description.



https://student.sis.maricopa.edu/cs/STUDENT/cache/PT_PIXEL_1.gif Introduction to the Linux Operating system. Develop knowledge and skills required to install, configure and troubleshoot a Linux-based workstation including basic network functions. Learn basic command line and Graphical User Interface (GUI) desktop environment utilities and applications. Fundamental abilities to achieve the entry-level industry certification covered. Prerequisites: None.


Here is their Windows equivalent



https://student.sis.maricopa.edu/cs/STUDENT/cache/PT_PIXEL_1.gif Introduction to business and personal computer operations and usage. Software applications for analyzing and solving business problems including word processing, spreadsheet, database, and presentation graphics. Prerequisites: None.


There's other classes for Windows, but they have more to do with using each individual part of MS Office, or just changing the look of Windows, and fine tuning Internet Explorer.

I think people should learn Linux in school just so they don't turn into dead weight office drones, and instead learn how to become multitasking powerhouses.

[murderslastcrow]

In my college, there are some computers (Macs) that run Adobe programs, and a few 3ds max computers with Windows, but for the most part all of the applications taught are taught on Macs (including Maya).

On the computers available for students in labs, the following software is installed.

1. Windows.
2. Firefox.
3. OpenOffice.org.
4. iTunes (to manage music on iPods, I assume).
5. VLC.
6. CDBurnerXP.
7. WinFF (for converting formats).
8. Audacity.

Now, if you look closely, you'll notice that five of those eight pieces of software are open source and began with Linux. You'll also notice that iTunes is used for something Rhythmbox is quite capable of (as well as a few other media players), and CDBurnerXP is easily replaced by Brasero.

The software on the computer takes up more than a default installation of Ubuntu.

So, if the school installed Ubuntu, it would already have most of the software it uses, and be able to install the others VERY quickly in a single command, or quickly and easily through the Software Center.

Also, the computer uses towers instead of Lite Clients, which it should be using to reduce costs of maintenance, energy use, and licensing.

From this I think you can imagine just how many places Linux should be being used, but due to its lack of popularity as a desktop OS (which it has earned, but not gained) is not.

[Merk42]

Another thing I don't understand about the whole "well it's what they'll be using in the workforce" is that they probably WON'T be using what they did in High School.

The version of Windows/Office/Internet Explorer a student uses in high school will most likely be different from the version of Windows/Office/Internet Explorer they use 4+ years later in the workforce (assuming a 4 year college)

[uRock]

I thought I made it clear that I wasnt talking about using these computers for networking. No, you worded you statement to say that schools do just run wires though the rafters without having the network engineered.


These computers would be used like personal computers that everyone has access to.

What kind of software do you imagine needs to be on every computer that is supposedly so hard to implement?Linux


We have linux computers on my college campus and it doesnt seem like its causing any problems.I somehow doubt the tech is being paid for his/her knowledge to maintain them, unless they are in a classroom where the teacher is teaching Linux.




Computers in every classroom? Usually the teacher has one, but only the computer and science labs have computers. More of the Math, Humanities, social science, ect, do not have computers in every classroom. In highschool very few classes had computers in them.

When I used the computers on campus, I rarely if ever used any software that required networking....maybe the library catalogs, but thats it. Mostly it was web browsing, email, printing, writting up documents, ect.....No that doesnt teach advanced computer use but that isnt the only point, and there is no reason why students cant experiment.How do you do the tasks in red without networking? I have never seen a printer directly connected to a PC in a school and what if the school decides to really save money by cutting MS Office and going to google docs?


Whats the harm in having some un-networked computers for basic internet and document functions?What's the point, other than in an IT Tech class? Not every kid is interested in learning a new OS or even learning anything more tha youtube, facebook and twitter.


Why have my schools all had linux computers (networked I might add) without causing any problems?Then why are you asking why they don't install it?

What is the purpose in having non-networked PCs in a school, other than in some high school elective? You keep saying your school, middle, high or college?

My city's schools have Macs in every room for K-5 and then only in labs and a few of the classrooms within the middle and high schools. But, they are all Macs, so that they can be maintained remotely by a contractor.

What good would non-networked PCs be for the average student? The primary purpose for computers in the school is for the kids to learn how to use the internet to do research. How can you teach kids to use Linux if you can't get them to google? You are saying that schools should be putting Linux on old dying PCs, which means Ubuntu is probably out of the question , which also means that the Windows tech is not going to know how to build and configure each system with Debian, Arch or Crunchbang. I have tried 2 out of three and I can see a non proficient Windows tech having a coronary trying to figure it out.

Mostly every room is already networked in a modern school, so why bother with non-networked PCs that the IT people cannot connect to remotely to fix, which means driving 20-30 minutes each way to make repairs. The schools here do NOT have IT employees in every school and the teacher's union prevents them from being required to maintain PCs unless it is part of their curriculum.

The question is whether or not your school can afford to pay a contractor to maintain Linux systems and/or whether or not they are willing to fork the extra money for Linux certified technicians and whether or not you would want your tax money being wasted on such changes when the students really need better paid teachers, newer books that do not still have Pluto as a planet, and school buses that don't blow black clouds when they take off at a green light.

Why do I not support wasting my taxes on this? Linux is free, parents who want their kids to learn can easily spend a few hours on google and fire up a dual boot with one of the many flavors of Linux that work out of the box on a new system and let their kids learn at home. My daughter has Ubuntu here, Mac at school and she will soon have XP on her system to learn about it. She's only six. By the time she reaches high school she will be able to teach basic IT skills to the teachers, that is if she decides to keep learning the IT stuff I am offering, because I have no problem with her saying she prefers another subject, but she will still be able to maintain whatever OS she chooses to keep on her systems. She just finished Kindergarten and her teacher was amazed with her learning abilities because I didn't wait for them to start teaching her.

[Austin25]

They should use edubuntu.

[murderslastcrow]

I think people here are overestimating the lack of comfort people have when they have to use something new or unfamiliar, that they may not use outside of school.

Kids in my school, many know they won't use Macs after school, or don't want to, but only one in each class will actually be the least bit upset about it. Everyone else just learns.

What makes OS X so much different from Linux, then? Oh, that's right, hardware support.

Seriously, when XP gets just that little bit too old, the cost of buying new computers just so you can run Windows 7 versus the ability to have better software running on the same machines will make this stupidly obvious.

For most students, having a faster OS that does the same stuff would be a huge alleviation of stress. Not only that, but if they really thought the students were too stupid to grasp a new OS, they can always make it look and act nearly identical to Windows XP with a single gnomenu ppa addition.

In fact, I think Gnomenu might be in the repositories by now, and it supports dragging items from the menus now.

So really, while it's not a perfect choice, and changing OSes in a school will never be easy, it's probably a better choice than Windows 7 or OS X if you're only running open source software on those computers already. The issue is that, due to fear, people don't even bother to take a chance on Linux, as if plopping in a LiveCD to test it is going to cost them a thousand dollars.

Honestly, people just need to stop being so afraid of technology- however, with Windows getting on like it is the first response to something new in technology is fear. Fear of something breaking, getting a virus, everything doing what you don't want, the computer shutting down for you after an update, etc.

Think about it- every time a new Windows is released, the same problems keep coming back, and sometimes new ones arise. For the people who upgrade, this only reinforces their mistrust in Windows. However, many translate this mistrust to computers as a whole.

I honestly think the general public's fear of computers is part of the sales strategy to have something to sell, purporting it fixes issues, while also causing people to think something that's free of price must be even MORE shoddy.

[Nick_Jinn]

No, you worded you statement to say that schools do just run wires though the rafters without having the network engineered.

What a vivid imagination you have. That isnt what I said at all. Even if one sentence in isolation could be misinterpreted, basic reading comprehension should teach you to read an entire post....where I CLEARLY STATED NETWORKING IS NOT ESSENTIAL FOR MANY THINGS STUDENTS USE COMPUTERS FOR.


Not every computer in my school it networked. We have Windows, Mac and Linux computers all together in the same lab and also in the library. I swear, to the best of my knowledge they all run flawlessly together and nobody is confused or going bankrupt. In fact it has probably saved our school money.


While some computers, like staff computers, DO need to be networked, a lot of the computers that the students have access to do not need to be networked.....and I almost wonder if its a good idea to give students access to the networked computers unless they are supervised and its needed.

Whats to stop me from hacking the system and giving myself As?

[shadowfax1]

One of my daughters friends called me to ask if I could fix her son's laptop.
Turns out the hardrive was toast so after installing a new one the optical drive wouldn't read the windows
file on the installation cd. Older laptop with lots of problems.

Anyway loaded lucid lynx using netbootin from a thumb drive

The kid figured his away around the program in a couple of hours and said it was 'way better than win7'

Why arn't they using it in schools? Probably because they like spending millions of dollars on windows volume licenses then spending the rest of the year bitching about their budget woes!

[ST3ALTHPSYCH0]

While some computers, like staff computers, DO need to be networked, a lot of the computers that the students have access to do not need to be networked.....and I almost wonder if its a good idea to give students access to the networked computers unless they are supervised and its needed.



So, either the computers won't have internet access or they'll all have cellular broadband cards, right? :facepalm:

[uRock]

What a vivid imagination you have. That isnt what I said at all. Even if one sentence in isolation could be misinterpreted, basic reading comprehension should teach you to read an entire post....where I CLEARLY STATED NETWORKING IS NOT ESSENTIAL FOR MANY THINGS STUDENTS USE COMPUTERS FOR.


Not every computer in my school it networked. We have Windows, Mac and Linux computers all together in the same lab and also in the library. I swear, to the best of my knowledge they all run flawlessly together and nobody is confused or going bankrupt. In fact it has probably saved our school money.


While some computers, like staff computers, DO need to be networked, a lot of the computers that the students have access to do not need to be networked.....and I almost wonder if its a good idea to give students access to the networked computers unless they are supervised and its needed.

Whats to stop me from hacking the system and giving myself As?
The school's administration systems have internet access, so it would be just as easy or hard to hack their data bases from your home PC as it would from a PC in a classroom, if the school's network was "networked" and not just thrown together. Hence the reason I said you don't know much about networking in a previous post. In a school, as well as any business with 100+ hosts on the network, there will be more than one subnet and the subnets will be firewalled to prevent that student from easily finding and hacking the database managers' systems. Those files are also supposed to be protected with permissions, which would prevent you from accessing and altering the files without finding a security hole to connect to the machine and then you would still have to find the staff's login and password to access the database. I could go on for days about the things that a government agency, such as a school, should have implemented in their security model.

[murderslastcrow]

To add to your note about the kid saying Ubuntu is better than Windows 7- my friends who did end up getting Windows 7 computers have already switched to XP or Ubuntu. It turns out that it's not as large a step up from Vista- certainly a step up, but people figure if it runs well in XP, why pay for the upgrade? They're currently trying to get refunds for their Windows 7 licenses.

The truth is that it's not very difficult to be 'better than Windows 7'. If it's Windows compatibility you're looking for, look no further than Windows XP. If it's anything else, look at Ubuntu or OS X. Windows 7 just doesn't offer much to the consumer but having a 'new' thing.

I think many schools will just keep using XP as long as possible. It's interesting to see that there is a community within Windows users and developers which silently support XP. Windows XP is like a community supported version, practically XD.

So really, I think people will cling to XP as long as they can, and by then the computers that Windows 7 runs on (and Windows 7) will be pretty cheap.

[Nick_Jinn]

The school's administration systems have internet access, so it would be just as easy or hard to hack their data bases from your home PC as it would from a PC in a classroom, if the school's network was "networked" and not just thrown together. Hence the reason I said you don't know much about networking in a previous post. In a school, as well as any business with 100+ hosts on the network, there will be more than one subnet and the subnets will be firewalled to prevent that student from easily finding and hacking the database managers' systems. Those files are also supposed to be protected with permissions, which would prevent you from accessing and altering the files without finding a security hole to connect to the machine and then you would still have to find the staff's login and password to access the database. I could go on for days about the things that a government agency, such as a school, should have implemented in their security model.


You are correct that I dont know much about networking, but I do know how to read a post and pick up key phrases like 'These computers do not need to be networked' and then understand that they are saying 'that these computers dont need to be networked' rather than coming to the exact opposite conclusion.

No, I dont have any experience setting up networks.

What I do know is that my college has a bunch of Linux computers and it apparently has not cost them much to maintain, and the students seem to be using them with success.


I am yet to hear a compelling argument for why schools cant utilize some linux computers, especially using it on older hardware, beyond having my knowledge of networking insulted. In reality, a lot of colleges use stand alone computers and just install basic tools, or at most some common programs.

The library computers, or about half of them, are connected to the schools catalog and sign in page, but the other half seem to be stand alone and just used for web surfing or writing papers or viewing documents, ect.

[uRock]

You are correct that I dont know much about networking, but I do know how to read a post and pick up key phrases like 'These computers do not need to be networked' and then understand that they are saying 'that these computers dont need to be networked' rather than coming to the exact opposite conclusion.

No, I dont have any experience setting up networks.

What I do know is that my college has a bunch of Linux computers and it apparently has not cost them much to maintain, and the students seem to be using them with success.


I am yet to hear a compelling argument for why schools cant utilize some linux computers, especially using it on older hardware, beyond having my knowledge of networking insulted. In reality, a lot of colleges use stand alone computers and just install basic tools, or at most some common programs.

The library computers, or about half of them, are connected to the schools catalog and sign in page, but the other half seem to be stand alone and just used for web surfing or writing papers or viewing documents, ect.
There is a big difference between college and grade schools. Grade schools where I am have a contracted company to maintain the student's computers, while they have IT techs that maintain the office worker's systems. Apple's contracting is much cheaper and more reliable than Canonical's. Unless the people on the contracted support side of Canonical are getting updates and patches that we do not see.

PS. Read your own writing, I was nice enough to go back and highlight it for you.
You dont need to route out the schools network or make massive administration changes, you can just throw a bunch of computers onto a desk, give them a wired or wireless network, let the students use them as they see fit.
You say they do not need to be networked, then you say to give them a network connection. Are the students going to bring in reels of ANSI approved cabling and get the building permit to wire them? Or are they going to bring in an industrial wireless router and plug it into the nearest RJ45 jack?

[KiwiNZ]

What is being built here in New Zealand is every school is being connected to a Fibre network. Every class will be connected to that Fibre Network and every desk will be provided with computers.

Those Schools will then be connected via the Fibre Network to a Cloud for Core Subjects and Curriculum etc. They will then subject to very strict firewall control have access via the Fibre Network to the World Wide Web for Student study.

All this requires up to date equipement , high end servers and knowledge of Networking and Systems Admin way beyond the scope of "Some Guy with a bit of knowledge". And the risk to the Network is too high to have some "handyman" Administering it.

Can this be built on Linux now ..... simple answer ......No.

[shadowfax1]

I think one of the things that needs to be done soon and that will increase participation by the younger generation with ubuntu is getting a linux version of itunes. just about every kid I know has an ipod and needs a comp with that capability to load music.

[uRock]

What is being built here in New Zealand is every school is being connected to a Fibre network. Every class will be connected to that Fibre Network and every desk will be provided with computers.

Those Schools will then be connected via the Fibre Network to a Cloud for Core Subjects and Curriculum etc. They will then subject to very strict firewall control have access via the Fibre Network to the World Wide Web for Student study.

All this requires up to date equipement , high end servers and knowledge of Networking and Systems Admin way beyond the scope of "Some Guy with a bit of knowledge". And the risk to the Network is too high to have some "handyman" Administering it.

Can this be built on Linux now ..... simple answer ......No.
I think it could be, but it would be very expensive. A CCNA/CCNP/Linux+ and then some engineer comes with a price tag that screams "Out of Range" for the public school systems. Here in Nevada the kids are lucky to have books with the current budget, much less worry about what OS they get to use.

[KiwiNZ]

I think it could be, but it would be very expensive. A CCNA/CCNP/Linux+ and then some engineer comes with a price tag that screams "Out of Range" for the public school systems. Here in Nevada the kids are lucky to have books with the current budget, much less worry about what OS they get to use.

The project is State funded and the Govenment gets good pricing from the major suppliers for hardware but the Support is expensive especially Unix/Linux as the numbers in the industry are lower than say Windows. Its a Supply /demand scenario. Therefore Windows based is going to win for the desktop with Unix Servers.

[brandenmikal]

Schools need to be using Linux, it builds better technology and will help students learn more of what is available out there and what open source technology can accomplish.

[cprofitt]

And Certified Professionals have been cleaning up disasters left by those guys for years. IBM NZ has just finished cleaning up a huge mess at a school created by a " Computer Guy worth his salt".

I know far too many paper MSCEs to really feel certifications are wroth much. I still have no certs and have cleaned up messes left behind by certified guys on several occasions. I kind of suspect that a 'big name' like IBM would only be brought in to 'fix' things. If the IT was worth his salt there would be need for a big name consulting firm like IBM.

[KiwiNZ]

I know far too many paper MSCEs to really feel certifications are wroth much. I still have no certs and have cleaned up messes left behind by certified guys on several occasions. I kind of suspect that a 'big name' like IBM would only be brought in to 'fix' things. If the IT was worth his salt there would be need for a big name consulting firm like IBM.

They had purchased some new Servers but did not buy Services contracts as they had a "so called IT savvy guy" on the Board of Trustees that would look after things. When one server went down he panic set in , by passed best practices, shut down the second , no back ups done, he had not connect the UPS's correctly. Had not carried out the back up regime correctly and a lot was lost.

He did a lot of damage to two servers that cost a lot of money to repair. IBM had no obligation to do so as there was no service contract purchased but put in many hour work to put it all right and charged only a token fee for this and replaced one Server and well below cost.

[uRock]

I think schools need to be focusing on teaching the basics. When I was taking my core classes, I watched several kids right out of high school that couldn't write a simple 3-5 page paper and get a decent grade on it. I loved the fact that they dropped spell check from the online discussion boards and the idiots started complaining when they lost points for misspelled words.

[shuhaibamariyil]

i am an indian. and indian government promotes free software all the schools and government office are using linux and some schools are using ubuntu

[conradin]

This is a recurring discussion, but...


Not really, or at least primarily. Windows is what most of the world uses, so it makes sense that they learn something they can actually use. Some Linux schooling would probably be beneficial, and Macs not so much.

Lolz, most poeple including students are not sys-admins, or even techies. The interfaces are so intuitive, its nearly a non-issue. Once you learn one, they're nearly all the same.

[beew]

Let's take a step back. What is the purpose of teaching computers in schools?

Do you want to teach learning skills using computers as a tool or do you want to teach specific OSs or programs? I think it is ridiculous to "teach" students how to use MS Office or OpenOffice while anyone who needs to use these softwares can just read the manual (I know some community colleges that focus on vocational training,--rather than *education* offer courses like that but they are pretty pointless imo) I think a computer courses should be problem/concept oriented rather than software oriented. Computers should be seen as tools that enhance the overall learning goal rather than an ends in themselves.

Teach concepts and problem solving skills and use whatever tools you have to solve the problem. I think Linux is much more compatible with a concept oriented approach that focuses on problem solving than windows.

AS for the cost of tech support, in my school (mathematics department of a large North American university) we use Linux and this is pretty typical for science departments in Universities. The system is maintained by a committee of graduate students and professors. I am sure none of these people have certificate in system admin and charge thousands of dollars for their service. As I said, this is quite typical in science faculties.

[darkstarbyte]

You know with linux you the schools would be safer online and almost all the updates you dont have to restart the entire system as much or worry about what new virus is going to reek hell on the system. Besides linux is built for servers they run approx. 90% - 97% of servers. If they switch to linux would you really need that much software maintenance. There is a reason linux runs so many servers. Keep that in mind when you quote this.

[JCyberinux]

yes, first of all. Its free. Second, all the software packages are there and ready to used. Like Open Office and Internet softwares. Third, i like to concept of linux that it is simple and clean desktop.

The only worry is that when it comes to the real world, popularity of users is Windows OS. But think of it, if the students have windows OS on their lecture desktop, they might do something like download some games, media files or any unnecessary files needed on their class.

If it is Linux/ubuntu, they probably only using, internet and office tools, they can concentrate very well on their studies.

that's all folks.

[TNT1]

I'm confused. Is this thread about schools using linux, or teaching linux? Aren't the very different things?

[v1ad]

I'm very, very far from being naive. Not all donations come with strings attached. For example, my dad had a number of large commercial bakeries. Every week he donated extra product to homeless shelters. Do you think he was expecting broke, homeless people to buy his products when they went to the store? No. Furthermore, he didn't even take the potential tax write off. So yes, companies do make donations out of generosity. To you I say, don't be so cynical. But..as I said in the earlier post, if it involves Microsoft...it's a conspiracy, or has some bend to it to corrupt the world and knock it off its axis.

no corporations do not donate without motive. a bakery owned by one man is different. once you have stockholders it all rotates around money, and every action is made with motive to benefit the company.

by your posts it seems clear that you have never worked in a corporation or still to young.

[v1ad]

My opinion is that schools should be teaching about run-on sentences in English classes before anybody starts to worry about which OS is installed on their computers.

my opinion is that people should stop whining about English errors and should begin to realize that we are on a Ubuntu forums instead of lets find English errors forums.

every time i see this i just wan't to slap someone upside the head, and maybe then they will focus on the topic instead of the english.

[julio_cortez]

I don't think schools have to use Linux at the moment.

For "teaching" reasons, students have to study what is of more common usage, so it's a sensible choice to teach a Microsoft OS to them.
A good thing would be to inform them about alternatives and choice, but I really think that as long as Windows is the most used OS "out there", students have to be prepared for it.

Then, if they managed to teach Linux along with Windows, it'd be a great thing.

[KiwiNZ]

no corporations do not donate without motive. a bakery owned by one man is different. once you have stockholders it all rotates around money, and every action is made with motive to benefit the company.

by your posts it seems clear that you have never worked in a corporation or still to young.

No, you are wrong , and I have worked for large Corps, and YES they do donate without strings. And before you ask , I am not young.

[v1ad]

No, you are wrong , and I have worked for large Corps, and YES they do donate without strings. And before you ask , I am not young.

o just saw your bean count :D, my bad.
i still believe all large donations where still written off on taxes, they have to audit where all the money goes and when they pay taxes they list it.

[uRock]

my opinion is that people should stop whining about English errors and should begin to realize that we are on a Ubuntu forums instead of lets find English errors forums.

every time i see this i just wan't to slap someone upside the head, and maybe then they will focus on the topic instead of the english.
](*,)

[uRock]

o just saw your bean count :D, my bad.
i still believe all large donations where still written off on taxes, they have to audit where all the money goes and when they pay taxes they list it.
I wonder if NZ has the same tax system as the states...

[bijeeshvs]

Linux is used in schools (Kerala, India http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=10.077037,74.619141&spn=7.361241,16.907959&z=7 ) upto 10th Standard and over 1.6 million students per Year.

Now almost every task of the department of education is done with FOSS

here are the links

http://itschool.gov.in/

http://itschool.gov.in/otherprograms.php#6

[murderslastcrow]

I think that in America and Europe, most people don't really understand just how difficult it is to sponsor all those licenses for proprietary software. For many people, it's either a Linux computer or no computer at all.

Makes me want to do a poster, the top half a fancy office with a Windows desktop and tons of fancy peripherals, perhaps with a generic error message, and the bottom half with two kids in a third world country with a shabby old computer running Ubuntu.

And you could label all the doo dads in the top picture, "flatbed scanner, $70.00, High-end tablet PC, $1,200.00, etc. etc." and next to the kids on the Ubuntu PC have "priceless."

A blue screen of death would probably be more accurate, which I myself have experienced doing nothing out of the ordinary on Windows 7 when it was released.

But really, to many people, Linux (open source in general, really) is a blessing. It enables them and their children to get ahead with technology in their communities. Even here in America with organizations like HeliOS, it gives people opportunities. I think it would be empowering to use it in schools, where it's truly practical.

[Famicube64]

Schools shouldn't even touch Linux if they can't afford to buy proper support for it.

[KiwiNZ]

o just saw your bean count :D, my bad.
i still believe all large donations where still written off on taxes, they have to audit where all the money goes and when they pay taxes they list it.

Yes donations can be written off against taxations as they can for individuals making donations. But that is not their only motivation. After all they could use the money for others means such as more stock etc.

Corporations despite the beliefs of the naive are staffed by people , just people doing a job.And those people have a community conscience.

[Saprissa]

Yes donations can be written off against taxations as they can for individuals making donations. But that is not their only motivation. After all they could use the money for others means such as more stock etc.

Corporations despite the beliefs of the naive are staffed by people , just people doing a job.And those people have a community conscience.

Not to go too far off topic, but some of "the naive" can cite you hundreds of examples of those people who staff corporations making decisions that demonstrate no trace of "community conscience" to the point of being pathological.

The corporation limits personal responsibility at a fundamental level and when relieved of that burden, people have been known to behave quite badly.

Of course there are exceptions, but it is the nature of the beast.

[v1ad]

Not to go too far off topic, but some of "the naive" can cite you hundreds of examples of those people who staff corporations making decisions that demonstrate no trace of "community conscience" to the point of being pathological.

The corporation limits personal responsibility at a fundamental level and when relieved of that burden, people have been known to behave quite badly.

Of course there are exceptions, but it is the nature of the beast.

yes ill agree with you, the ones with a conscience are the minority.

[Nick_Jinn]

I think that in America and Europe, most people don't really understand just how difficult it is to sponsor all those licenses for proprietary software. For many people, it's either a Linux computer or no computer at all.

Makes me want to do a poster, the top half a fancy office with a Windows desktop and tons of fancy peripherals, perhaps with a generic error message, and the bottom half with two kids in a third world country with a shabby old computer running Ubuntu.

And you could label all the doo dads in the top picture, "flatbed scanner, $70.00, High-end tablet PC, $1,200.00, etc. etc." and next to the kids on the Ubuntu PC have "priceless."

A blue screen of death would probably be more accurate, which I myself have experienced doing nothing out of the ordinary on Windows 7 when it was released.

But really, to many people, Linux (open source in general, really) is a blessing. It enables them and their children to get ahead with technology in their communities. Even here in America with organizations like HeliOS, it gives people opportunities. I think it would be empowering to use it in schools, where it's truly practical.

If you make something like that I will post it on my website. I think that would be awesome.

Yes, Linux is a major blessing to a lot of people, including schools. Its not the problem people seem to be claiming it is. Its a blessing that the option exists.

And I do kind of wonder why so many people who are so skeptical and have such little faith Linux seem to invest so much into this forum...I mean, if you think Windows or Mac is so much better than Linux, why not go help out on their forums instead?


My schools have used Linux and it works GREAT. I dont have to know how to set up a network to realize that Linux helps schools and the underprivileged and does it WELL.

[KiwiNZ]

And I do kind of wonder why so many people who are so skeptical and have such little faith Linux seem to invest so much into this forum...I mean, if you think Windows or Mac is so much better than Linux, why not go help out on their forums instead?
.

Because in the real World a lot people realise that whilst linux is a good product it has a long way to go until ready. Many of those people also realise that if you push an unready product too soon it signs its death warrant EG Lindows , Coral Desktop , Linux on Netbooks.

And many of those same people have invested many years into getting Linux and Ubuntu to where it is today.

[uRock]

If you make something like that I will post it on my website. I think that would be awesome.

Yes, Linux is a major blessing to a lot of people, including schools. Its not the problem people seem to be claiming it is. Its a blessing that the option exists.

And I do kind of wonder why so many people who are so skeptical and have such little faith Linux seem to invest so much into this forum...I mean, if you think Windows or Mac is so much better than Linux, why not go help out on their forums instead?


My schools have used Linux and it works GREAT. I dont have to know how to set up a network to realize that Linux helps schools and the underprivileged and does it WELL.
Oh, I feel so privileged that you are talking about me. Why are you mad that schools hire consultants and those consultants don't recommend Linux? They do not understand it and even if the school board were to say they want it, they(the consultants) would put up the RedHat and/or Canonical pricing page and make some really good jokes about overpaying for systems that are not ready for the desktop.
They might even go as far as throwing in a LiveCD, but then they see that Flash crappy. Flash has to be installed via a different method depending on the system's hardware. Then the teachers would have to stop excepting .doc and .docx files for homework as it still renders incorrectly when going from one OS to another. I have seen this first hand when opening a file in Windows using OpenOffice that was created in Ubuntu's OpenOffice, much less opening it in a different office suite.

I am not against using Linux in schools, but they would have to hire techs that are willing to take a pay cut to do it. I am not talking about colleges as my college has multiple distros installed in the computer labs and on the school's server for connecting via ssh. Apple has the best pricing scheme, which is why my county's schools use Apple for student systems.
As for the school's staff, Ubuntu has no rating via TCSEC/ITSEC/Common Criteria (https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/common+criteria+certification), which means government agencies(schools included) cannot use these systems from secure data storage, such as student records which can only be opened by request of the student, parents or courts of law.

[uRock]

BTW, Nick_Jinn, who are you to say who can and cannot contribute to Ubuntu Forums. I am here to help people install a system that is a great alternative to OS X and Windows. It is an OS, not a religion.

[kamaboko]

It is an OS, not a religion.

I couldn't agree more.

[jrusso2]

No students should not be forced to use Linux. They are there to learn and Microsoft offers them great deals on their software.

Also Linux would require more support and different support which is alot more expensive.

[bijeeshvs]

Our government is using linux in schools and its not that much expensive coz no corporation is providing support, our teachers and staff support it aand there is a lot of users (1.6 million per year) so don't say its expensive

[ilovelinux33467]

The school I go to in New Zealand is using Linux. The only acception is 1 Windows server used for the proprietary Student Management System. I am very happy that my school is using Linux. They have Ubuntu 10.04 on all the clients and Mandriva on the servers. You can read about my school at:

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/open-source/kiwi-high-school-issues-shot-heard-around-the-open-source-world/5690

[jrusso2]

Our government is using linux in schools and its not that much expensive coz no corporation is providing support, our teachers and staff support it aand there is a lot of users (1.6 million per year) so don't say its expensive

Well running networks is how I make my money and I would never be foolish enough to suggest this without having really good support.

[bijeeshvs]

Well running networks is how I make my money and I would never be foolish enough to suggest this without having really good support.

Here is what we do.....

The project uses a in-house customised version of linux

Over 5000 schools

1.6 million students per year

Around 1 Crore dollars in saving

5 years of successful running

Each and every software used for every type of administration task is in-house developed

here are the links
http://itschool.gov.in/otherprograms.php#6
http://itschool.gov.in/glance.php

There is nothing more good to have as like, The right people doing the right job...

Hope ur convinced..................

[limestone]

Schools should be using Linux to save their money for better use than licenses.

[bijeeshvs]

Schools should be using Linux to save their money for better use than licenses.

I agree with the above point..............

The amount saved by the said project can translate into the purchase of around 24000 (Twenty four thousand ) computers here......

[MZ250Supa5]

In my opinion, the answer is a definite 'yes'. Of course, the law of 'supply and demand' ensures that professional tech support will be expensive, but the worldwide Linux community itself provides the kernel of an answer - is development of the various flavours not itself the fruit of many economically non-aligned individuals? If those same people, and others were to start developing their skills towards tech support as well, and I'm sure that many already supply this support in an informal manner, we would soon arrive at a situation where there would be a superfluity of tech support people through a process of cross-fertilisation, thus undermining the large coprporations - this applies as much to companies like Canonical as Microsoft. As some have already pointed out, many, if not most servers in the world already run on Linux, and it's my guess that things would not be this way were Linux not stable and reliable.

I understand that the point of this thread is that it's about the ability to use a computer, not about what is 'under the bonnet', and in that sense, it doesn't matter what OS is used; they are all much of a muchness. As someone approaching their mid fifties in age, who studiously avoided anything to do with computers until about 20 years ago I feel qualified to comment. I started out using an Amstrad PCW 9512, and then progressed to using a PC running Microsoft DOS with a cli, and only a few years later encountered Windows 3.1, which was some time after I'd experienced a Mac... So, as you can guess, it was a pretty uninspiring experience! Later I bought my first computer, running Windows 98, so soon became familiar with the BSOD.

Maybe things haven't progressed in many parts of the world to a point where acceptance of FOSS is widespread, but it is beginning to happen, and costs are a major consideration. Our friend bijeeshvs on this forum makes some very valid points - there are many places in the world that cannot afford to become locked into the growing corporate dominance of our lives, and that's just in terms of money, it doesn't even begin to address the issues about freedom in general. But then, it's my belief that most people won't really worry about their freedom until it's gone, and 'freedom' becomes a choice between Coke or Pepsi, McDonalds or Burger King.

As for the weak arguments about confusion when it comes to using the various different desktops, in my experience that 'confusion' lasts about 10 minutes maximum. Most desktops are pretty intuitive, and someone used to a Windows desktop quickly adapts. I have a very non computer savvy friend who had only experienced Windows until she used my computer with Karmic in it. Within about 5 minutes she was having some problems - with the Welsh language localisation I use! For the great majority of people, the OS is immaterial, they tend to focus more on what they can do with a computer rather than what OS it uses. Given that, I feel that Linux, particularly in its Ubuntu manifestation is more than ready, it just needs marketing, something I do all the time, and many, though understandably sceptical at first, take to it like ducks to water - ok, so I might get the odd phone call asking for technical assistance, but at least they don't get put on hold for ages listening to awful music only to be told that they'll have to go to Level 2 support who then confuse the heck out of them. Linux is more of a 'hands on' experience, and it is better for this.

Microsoft is beginning to slowly lose ground, in France the Gendarmerie National (National Police) have made the changeover to Ubuntu, saving themselves $700,000 a year in IT costs; the French National Assembly has changed over to Fedora and the French Ministry of Education uses yet another Linux distro. Many of the regional governments in Spain have developed their own localised distros. It only appears to be the English speaking world that lags behind in terms of uptake of FOSS, but I hope that the present economic environment forces a reassessment of the idea that there is only one OS in town. Most IT support people I know use Linux at home as light relief from the horrors of working with Microsoft products all day long.

The world may be awash with hacked versions of Windows and associated software, but I for one would rather not steal my OS, especially when I don't need to: theft is always wrong, even if justified at times, which it certainly isn't, especially in the case of Microsoft software. If you're going to steal something, at least steal something worthwhile. It makes far more sense stealing a version of Linux. So what if the likes of Mark Shuttleworth decides to put a button in a different place... just move it to where you'd like it to be. So what if GIMP is removed from the default installation disc... download it from the Software Centre, and hundreds of other apps besides. Whilst all the fanboy/girl bickering is going on a rapid evolution is going on - even as short a time as two years ago Ubuntu was a pain in the a*** to attach some basic hardware like printers and scanners, or even get a Wacom graphics tablet working correctly, now it just 'sees' them and politely tells you to check the almost automatic configuration.

In conclusion, using Linux in schools is more than just about computer operating systems, it's about educating people about real choice, and as a bonus, about the philosophy of real freedom, not just the fake choices that too many make unawares. If people want to use Microsoft products, that's fine, but only as an informed choice, and not because it's the only thing they know - that's not choice.

[jrusso2]

Here is what we do.....

The project uses a in-house customised version of linux

Over 5000 schools

1.6 million students per year

Around 1 Crore dollars in saving

5 years of successful running

Each and every software used for every type of administration task is in-house developed

here are the links
http://itschool.gov.in/otherprograms.php#6
http://itschool.gov.in/glance.php

There is nothing more good to have as like, The right people doing the right job...

Hope ur convinced..................

The point is not that it cannot be done its just that the support is harder and more expensive.

[bijeeshvs]

The point is not that it cannot be done its just that the support is harder and more expensive.

To cut the costs 90,000 teachers were trained and now they are maintaining the system.

And actually spending money is not the only problem where you spend it is the problem, People are spending 4-6 million Rupees to get a professional degree (About 0.1 million dollar )

It was the determination of two people here, K Anvar Sadath, Executive Director of it@school project and Director of our General education, Muhammad Haneesh. When Bill Gates himself visited here Our state didn't make a deal with them. For us these are the reasons that were pointed out against such a decision.


The Kerala IT Education Department believes that sharing is an important virtue. However, sharing proprietary software would be a violation of the End User. Building collaboration and sharing practices are essential factors for the well being of societies and proprietary software often denies that. Against the odds that Proprietary software are user friendly, the effort of the Project saw educational community in Kerala accepting open source technology. Its own GNU\Linux supporting mechanism and a GNU\Linux resource center to clarify all the queries in operational and software requirement issues and there is constant interaction among these sections is an advantage.

In the case of Project, the free software platform is IT@School GNU\Linux, a free version of operating system was indigenously developed in association with free software foundation. The open source materials developed/used by the Project includes
√ IT@School GNU\ Linux- Free software operating system which is now used in entire schools in Kerala

√ Application softwares like Open office, GIMP, Dr. Geo, Rasmol, KEduca, Klab etc.
√ Examination software –to conduct IT practical examination to more than16 lakh students
√ Handbook for GNU\Linux – prepared as a user manual for working in IT@School GNU\Linux

√ Training modules in GNU\Linux – to train teachers in open source

√ Textbook for standard 8th 9th and 10th – Prepared in association with SCERT

Challenges faced while FOSS implemention

√ Enabling GNU\Linux and FOSS based education in 2,738 high schools brought along its own set of challenges.

√ Resourceful Manpower to train was the single biggest challenge in the implementation.
√ Creating a single curriculum based on GNU/Linux was another issue to counter because there were many distributions of the OS and the schools had already installed different distributions.
√ To provide support to the schools where GNU/Linux was being used.
√ To train high school teachers in free software
√ To develop software for conduct of IT practical examination in free software platform
√ To conduct IT practical examination in free software for than 14 lakh students in Kerala
√ Customization of all application in free software platform
√ To develop educational content in free software platform

Solutions for overcoming challenges

√ In the first phase, over 40,000 teachers had to be trained for over 90 hours on GNU\Linux based systems. The Project has started training its resource personnel in free software with help of Free Software Foundation. The Project has trained about 90,000 teachers in open platform.

√ A Resource Centre has been established in Kochi for conducting teacher training in Linux.
√ First initiative includes development of a free platform Operating system called IT@School GNU\Linux. The project has now released 3 updated versions of the OS and a IT@School GNU\Linux - Lite version which even works in computers of low configuration.

√ Initially the examination for IT practical was developed on proprietary software. Then, it was developed in open source plat form and now for the first time in the world, examination for about 15 lakh students is being conducted in free software platform.

[jeight]

Schools should be using LTSP-clustering with authentication over samba to boot either windows remotely or linux. Why give up either when you can use both?

[donkyhotay]

I think that yes schools *should* be using linux for teaching and training purposes. On the flip side I doubt it's going to happen, especially in the USA. MS knows their biggest strength lies in the fact most people aren't aware that choices even exist. If a generation of users learned on linux at school, then even though they could easily apply those skills to a windows based computer they would start to wonder "What the @#$% am I paying MS for?" and not use windows. MS will easily give away software to schools to encourage them to teach windows (and only windows) because they'll recoup the investment years later when they're so indoctrinated they can't use anything else. It's the same reason some head of MS at one point said that while of course they don't want anyone to pirate windows, they'd rather someone pirate windows then use a legit OS because it increases the likelyhood they or someone else will purchase a legit copy at a later time.

[aysiu]

A migration is never easy. Our school just upgraded from XP to Windows 7. Lots of problems with the Windows 7 image--drivers, inability to change the default user profile (something that could be easily done in XP), network printing issues, etc. All of that, plus user resistance to anything new (both students and teachers do not dig the ribbon toolbar in Microsoft Office 2007).

Just because an operating system has merits on its own doesn't mean there isn't a cost (both monetarily and psychologically) in changing over to it from what you used to use.

[mamamia88]

I just wrote to my college asking them to add a few linux computers around campus. i personally only have half hour between my class right now and it took a good 5 minutes for windows 7 to load just to use firefox.

[TNT1]

Isn't this actually a question of value? What would you do with $10, what would you do for $10?

I mean, Linux, and especially Ubuntu go far beyond the actual cost of the software and infrastructure. They are about a mindset, a way of looking at the world, and what you value.

If we want to continue to raise ignorant, unenlightened individuals, then we must continue with the status quo.

If we want to raise bright young people of conscience, then we need to reformat the way we, and by extension, they, see the world, and the way they interact with it.

[darkstarbyte]

I talked to my IT friend and he said that they will never use linux at that school its to hard to network.
maybe because windows has a file sharing thing that is easy to get to. If anyone has an idea please tell me.

[DrMelon]

My college uses Linux as part of all its Computing-Related courses. They believe we should have a better view of all OS's, and I agree.

And guess which distribution they use?
Ubuntu 10.04 :KS

Plus, Linux is used in most major website hosters. It is designed for networking. It was built on an OS that was purely network-based. Is your "IT Friend" stupid or something? Hell, my router even runs a trimmed-down version of Linux.

[rockager]

there isn't any good reason not to use linux in schools

[aysiu]

there isn't any good reason not to use linux in schools
There are actually plenty of good reasons. I know it's tough to read 16 pages of a thread, but here are some highlights: Windows-only programs that do not run well in Wine and that have no Linux equivalents with exactly the same functionality. Migration costs (any migration is a cost of both time and money). Psychological pushback or resistance to change from students, faculty, and/or administrators. More expensive tech support. That doesn't mean Linux can never be a good choice for schools. In fact, I'd argue it is often a good choice, especially for schools that would otherwise not have computers.

[pookiebear]

to fix the networking question:
make 1 easy GUI that can control samba and ldap. make it simple, and simple to auto mount network drives on client workstations. Then teach it at schools that teach networking, so the network admins will make it more adopted.

As for schools adopting it. The network admins need to adopt it first. Then they will be more comfortable in supporting the users with it. THEN at that point the cost of conversion to linux will be cheaper than upgrading current systems to windows 7 or whatever the next windows is going to be.

OR

If HP/Dell sold 2 versions of the same computer side by side. One with windows and one with a Nix. But the Nix version was 50 bucks cheaper (or more) I bet you would see a large market shift in a year or less. I bet it would have to be $50 cheaper though before anyone took notice.

[rox retro]

Shouldn't students be exposed to all popular platforms Windows, Linux and OSX etc that they would encounter in the workplace?

[aysiu]

to fix the networking question:
make 1 easy GUI that can control samba and ldap. make it simple, and simple to auto mount network drives on client workstations. Then teach it at schools that teach networking, so the network admins will make it more adopted. That sounds like a good solution, but I'm not sure I get what the problem is. It shouldn't be up to the students or faculty to set up networking, so who cares if it has a GUI or not? It's up to the network administrators and IT staff to take care of networking.

I've seen what goes on behind the scenes of Windows networking, Active Directory, and Exchange. That's no walk in the park. "GUI" does not automatically mean "easy to use."

[aysiu]

Shouldn't students be exposed to all popular platforms Windows, Linux and OSX etc that they would encounter in the workplace?
No. The job of schools isn't to train for particular tools, especially since those tools may be obsolete by the time students are actually in the workforce.

No computers I used when I was in school (and that goes for primary, secondary, and university levels) is in use now. Nor is any GUI I used then. Nor are the programs I used then. I took a computer science class in high school. No one even programs in that language any more (Pascal).

Students should be taught how to be comfortable with computers and how to learn any new program. They should learn how to use various tools and how to extrapolate principles of use from one program to a similar program. You have no idea how confused some of my fellow staff and faculty members are since we upgraded from Microsoft Office 2003 to Microsoft Office 2007. They were used to the regular menus, and the ribbon interface is just completely different.

[ST3ALTHPSYCH0]

I'll agree that the menus should have been able to be reenabled, instead of a $15 3rd party add on. I've spent a lot of time Googling, b/c the menus were the same from Office '97->Office XP-> Office '03 (and all the ones that I missed in there that I never personally used.

[corrytonapple]

Schools should use Linux. There are anti-discrimination laws here in the US, so open-source and the teaching of alternatives should be good for them, and me. :) I had this one keyboarding teacher who said we knew nothing about computers when me and my friend both run Linux and his dad works high up in the government with computers.

[AlphaMack]

As a computer teacher and lab admin for a small school, I believe that Linux should be taught for those who are interested in setting up a network for a home-based business with minimal cost or setting up a web server. To that end, I converted a small handful of our workstations to dual-boots so that those interested in wondering out what this "Ubuntu" is have a chance to test drive it and to learn how to work with the server aspects of Linux from the Ubuntu desktop.

Unfortunately, the reality is that our curriculum is entirely Windows-centric and students are there to learn how to quickly use Windows-based proprietary programs such as MSO, Adobe CS, and QuickBooks rather than learning the concepts. As I get to decide how those classes are taught, I do try to slip some FOSS in whenever I can, such as courses on the Internet and SOHO networking.

Moreover, I do rarely get complainers who insist that my lab should be running Windows 7 instead of XP and Office 2007 or even 2010 instead of 2003. IMO a word processor is a word processor and it's sad that today's generation grew up knowing only MSO. I always tell them to supply me with the cash for the licensing for each workstation and I'll gladly supply Windows 7 and MSO 2010.

As my lab literally has no budget, an Ubuntu workstation handles file and print sharing for an unlimited number of clients as well as the lab's CCTV for free. It's amazing what can be done without a budget, but it's unfortunate that 0.000000001% will understand and appreciate this. Sadly, I doubt that the person who replaces me down the road (when that time comes) will be Linux-savvy.

[darkstarbyte]

As a computer teacher and lab admin for a small school, I believe that Linux should be taught for those who are interested in setting up a network for a home-based business with minimal cost or setting up a web server. To that end, I converted a small handful of our workstations to dual-boots so that those interested in wondering out what this "Ubuntu" is have a chance to test drive it and to learn how to work with the server aspects of Linux from the Ubuntu desktop.

Unfortunately, the reality is that our curriculum is entirely Windows-centric and students are there to learn how to quickly use Windows-based proprietary programs such as MSO, Adobe CS, and QuickBooks rather than learning the concepts. As I get to decide how those classes are taught, I do try to slip some FOSS in whenever I can, such as courses on the Internet and SOHO networking.

Moreover, I do rarely get complainers who insist that my lab should be running Windows 7 instead of XP and Office 2007 or even 2010 instead of 2003. IMO a word processor is a word processor and it's sad that today's generation grew up knowing only MSO. I always tell them to supply me with the cash for the licensing for each workstation and I'll gladly supply Windows 7 and MSO 2010.

As my lab literally has no budget, an Ubuntu workstation handles file and print sharing for an unlimited number of clients as well as the lab's CCTV for free. It's amazing what can be done without a budget, but it's unfortunate that 0.000000001% will understand and appreciate this. Sadly, I doubt that the person who replaces me down the road (when that time comes) will be Linux-savvy.


I saw a school computer lab on youtube (old video) that had a lab running gentoo and it was Zooming by. In the video they clustered every computer so if one is getting used less it would add the some of the load to it.

[CharlesA]

How about we just let this thread die?

Thread closed.

It was originally closed due to a troll post, which has been removed, but I'd rather this not turn into an OS bashing thread.

[CharlesA]

Reopened after speaking to the OP.

[Prohibited]

As long as Windows Operating Systems are still the most commonly used Operating System then schools will still use Windows.

No point in having something completely different, such as *nix, to save money but then the majority of students being unable to use this.

I remember at school when I was using a Remote Connection to my desktop, logged in to the Administrator account and I had someone asking me how I got the Administrator password for the school network :l.

[t0p]

I have an idea. In primary schools (ages 5-10) use Linux. So the kiddies learn about computing. In secondary/high schools (ages 11-18 ) teach students some specific Windows programs, in case they need to have that skill when they leave education. Continue providing Linux machines, for students who want to do non-Windows specific work in Linux, and also students who have a hankering to get into system admin can learn how to administrate a network in a secure fashion. I'm not saying it's impossible to do secure admin in Windows, but Linux is a common proposition in real world administration so the students may as well learn about it.

The above proposition will create school-leavers who have a wide knowledge of computing, and who can make informed decisions on OS choice.

[kaldor]

No point in having something completely different, such as *nix, to save money but then the majority of students being unable to use this.

Depends on where you are. We wasted too much money this year upgrading a large number of the province's computers to Windows 7, MS Office 2010 and lots more expensive software that is next to useless (who the hell needs a 100 dollar resume maker?)

That sounds great. But then, where could that money have been used if we used FOSS:

- Textbooks are currently older than I am, and the classroom maps in Geography a few years ago still had "USSR" on them.

- School furniture being reused from as far back as the 50's in some places.. flat wooden planks to sit your *** on all day are wonderful.

- The school networks always break down and die here. When I was in highschool, the computer labs would be shut down every now and then due to malware attacks/dumb administrators.

- Using Linux or even FOSS on Windows where possible. Even if you use Windows, wtf is the point of upgrading elementary school kids to MS Office 2010? And why are we still buying copies of Corel Paintshop Pro instead of using GIMP? Not like any serious art production gets done on the K12 level.


And why would people be unable to use Linux? I remember in highschool nobody did anything except click on the IE icon and research stuff.

[xtnsgo]

I'm less concerned with which OS students use, and more concerned with many young users' "magic box" approach to tech. I'm often surprised at how competent young people can be with applications and devices, yet have so little idea of what happens behind the interface. They sometimes think they know a lot more than they actually do, and that kind of ignorance-based confidence troubles me.

[darkstarbyte]

At my school district they are using windows xp i personally do not like windows because its always down. The reason they have this on almost all the computers is, because they say we are going to use this for the rest of are lives at what ever we are working at. Personally I don't see my self using it in 2 years. I am promised a job as soon as I get into college a job working as a scientist assistant and they use Linux for programming and I am learning programming c to be exact which is a very nice programming language.

[Johnsie]

I want my kids learning software that will get them jobs. Most companies use Windows so I want them learning that. A little Linux is ok, but they need to be employable.

[AlphaMack]

I want my kids learning software that will get them jobs. Most companies use Windows so I want them learning that. A little Linux is ok, but they need to be employable.

Twenty years ago: I want my kids learning machines that will get them jobs. Most companies use typewriters so I want them learning that. A little word processing is ok, but they need to be employable.

I've watched people accustomed to Windows XP freeze up when they see a Vista or a 7 machine. Likewise Office 2007 vs. Office 2003. Never mind that both are word processors and are functionally similar in concept. But that darn ribbon sure makes things confusing! ;-) And that's just within the decade.

When your kids grow up, are they still going to even be using Windows or MSO? Or is a Windows XP workstation going to be sitting in the Smithsonian right alongside an electric typewriter?

[aysiu]

I want my kids learning software that will get them jobs. Most companies use Windows so I want them learning that. A little Linux is ok, but they need to be employable.
At my current job, I use Windows 7, Microsoft Office 2007, FileMaker Pro 8, Firefox, Chrome, Dropbox, and Adobe InDesign.

None of these things were in existence when I was in high school or college.

And there's no guarantee these things will be in existence or popular by the time current high school and college students get out into the workforce.

We recently upgraded at work from Microsoft Office 2003 to 2007, and it's left a lot of both faculty and students confused (the new ribbon interface). Even if people stick with Windows, the new Windows operating systems will be increasingly different from the older ones.

Rather than teaching people programs (which change), you should teach them concepts, which they can apply to any operating system and any program.

[whiskeylover]

Rather than teaching people programs (which change), you should teach them concepts, which they can apply to any operating system and any program.

What you say is true; we do need to teach people concepts rather than programs. But on the other hand, most people are technically retarded. They need to be spoon fed every time a new version of a program comes out. They simply throw their hands in the air and give up if you don't guide them every step of the way. For example, the receptionist at the front desk in our office had to be trained on validating parking tickets because they changed the system. You and me, on the other hand, would be able to read the instructions printed on a single sheet of paper and figure it out by ourselves in minutes. Unfortunately, it isn't true for most people.

[aysiu]

What you say is true; we do need to teach people concepts rather than programs. But on the other hand, most people are technically retarded. They need to be spoon fed every time a new version of a program comes out. They simply throw their hands in the air and give up if you don't guide them every step of the way. For example, the receptionist at the front desk in our office had to be trained on validating parking tickets because they changed the system. You and me, on the other hand, would be able to read the instructions printed on a single sheet of paper and figure it out by ourselves in minutes. Unfortunately, it isn't true for most people.
That reinforces my point, though. If someone is technically challenged and needs to be retaught every new version of the same program, why is it important for schools to teach that person a particular program? The program will change by the time old "tc" gets a job, and then "tc" will have to be retrained.

[Roasted]

As somebody who works in a school district, yes absolutely I think Linux should exist somewhere. I think it's important to realize the tech world is not a Windows world. It is an Apple world. It is a Linux world. Knowing the differences out there, I believe, is important. While I would love to see Linux on every darn PC here, I know it's maybe not the most plausible thing. However, I would love to see more of them, perhaps a Linux lab or something of the like, etc.

[kaldor]

I want my kids learning software that will get them jobs. Most companies use Windows so I want them learning that. A little Linux is ok, but they need to be employable.

Is the point of computers at school to learn how they work or is it to be used as a resource?

Unless it's in a computer tech class, it's not meant to teach people computer skills.

[SeijiSensei]

I think there's another important goal than simply exposure to Linux, and that's exposure to free software. I see too many young people who think that the only way they can create a graphic or edit a photograph is to first obtain an illegal copy of Photoshop. I want everyone to look first to open software when they have a task that requires a computer. Need a graphics editor? Download the GIMP. Need a word processor? Download Abiword or OpenOffice. Need a spreadsheet? How about Gnumeric or, again, OpenOffice? A drawing program? Try Inkscape.

It's not even an issue of OS platform. Many of the most significant pieces of open software have Windows and Linux binaries available. That's true for all the ones I've listed, and for other lovely items like SMPlayer. OS X has more spotty coverage, but more and more free programs are ported to Macs every day.

[darkstarbyte]

Twenty years ago: I want my kids learning machines that will get them jobs. Most companies use typewriters so I want them learning that. A little word processing is ok, but they need to be employable.

I've watched people accustomed to Windows XP freeze up when they see a Vista or a 7 machine. Likewise Office 2007 vs. Office 2003. Never mind that both are word processors and are functionally similar in concept. But that darn ribbon sure makes things confusing! ;-) And that's just within the decade.

When your kids grow up, are they still going to even be using Windows or MSO? Or is a Windows XP workstation going to be sitting in the Smithsonian right alongside an electric typewriter?


At my current job, I use Windows 7, Microsoft Office 2007, FileMaker Pro 8, Firefox, Chrome, Dropbox, and Adobe InDesign.

None of these things were in existence when I was in high school or college.

And there's no guarantee these things will be in existence or popular by the time current high school and college students get out into the workforce.

We recently upgraded at work from Microsoft Office 2003 to 2007, and it's left a lot of both faculty and students confused (the new ribbon interface). Even if people stick with Windows, the new Windows operating systems will be increasingly different from the older ones.

Rather than teaching people programs (which change), you should teach them concepts, which they can apply to any operating system and any program.


What you say is true; we do need to teach people concepts rather than programs. But on the other hand, most people are technically retarded. They need to be spoon fed every time a new version of a program comes out. They simply throw their hands in the air and give up if you don't guide them every step of the way. For example, the receptionist at the front desk in our office had to be trained on validating parking tickets because they changed the system. You and me, on the other hand, would be able to read the instructions printed on a single sheet of paper and figure it out by ourselves in minutes. Unfortunately, it isn't true for most people.


As somebody who works in a school district, yes absolutely I think Linux should exist somewhere. I think it's important to realize the tech world is not a Windows world. It is an Apple world. It is a Linux world. Knowing the differences out there, I believe, is important. While I would love to see Linux on every darn PC here, I know it's maybe not the most plausible thing. However, I would love to see more of them, perhaps a Linux lab or something of the like, etc.


I think there's another important goal than simply exposure to Linux, and that's exposure to free software. I see too many young people who think that the only way they can create a graphic or edit a photograph is to first obtain an illegal copy of Photoshop. I want everyone to look first to open software when they have a task that requires a computer. Need a graphics editor? Download the GIMP. Need a word processor? Download Abiword or OpenOffice. Need a spreadsheet? How about Gnumeric or, again, OpenOffice? A drawing program? Try Inkscape.

It's not even an issue of OS platform. Many of the most significant pieces of open software have Windows and Linux binaries available. That's true for all the ones I've listed, and for other lovely items like SMPlayer. OS X has more spotty coverage, but more and more free programs are ported to Macs every day.


You all make good points some could say your all right at the same time. I was wanting to try an experiment but I am not sure if its legal, the experiment being that i charge a dollar per disk. I am going to use Linux Mint because it has all the stuff i need. The LXDE version to be exact also I could call it a recovery disk. I am going to burn them and use that scribe light but I am not sure if its legal for me to do this. Its going to be non profit of course if I can do it. The reason for this experiment is to see if more people would use Linux if it had a cost, because some people have it in there minds if its free it should not be used, because it could have a virus it could be a scam. Better yet some people think if its free its not secure, so I to see if my theory is correct.

Under this is what I added.

When I say my light scribe I am going to put labels on these things, and make paper disk holders for them. I Am going to print Tux on the paper holder.

[Prohibited]

It would probably be legal if you called the $1 a "donation" and donated the money to some charity, not if you kept it for yourself.

[macem29]

don't see the OS a that big an issue, but as pointed out already, MS office is the business standard,
open office is a damn good attempt to copy it, but it has flaws when opening and saving in non native .doc
format, especially with complex macro documents, they don't port accurately so students should have
MS office to learn on...and I think there is a whopping institutional discount for it

[darkstarbyte]

It would probably be legal if you called the $1 a "donation" and donated the money to some charity, not if you kept it for yourself.

By non-profit i was going to buy the amount of dvds used. If thats ok. By this I mean I am going to charge just enough for it to pay for it self nothing more. Well most of the money is going to come from out of pocket the money I get is going to just pay for itself nothing more. So I am going to lose money I just want it to pay for the next batch of disks which I am going to give away for free. Just an experiment. I am most likely going to lose 15 dollars just to see if people are more likely to trust software they pay for.

[CharlesA]

It would probably be legal if you called the $1 a "donation" and donated the money to some charity, not if you kept it for yourself.

It's fine to sell, as long as you provide something.


By non-profit i was going to buy the amount of dvds used. If thats ok.

You provide a disc, which is fine. Saves some download time. :)

[darkstarbyte]

Thanks.

Your my favorite Administrator, so far.

[darkstarbyte]

I looked at the price on the light scribe dvds and I need to find a cheaper way to do the labels on these things. I am going to be out more than what I originally thought. $25 dollars plus shipping and handling(Amazon.com was cheaper than the local best buy), Along with the ink and paper from the printer. I have normal dvds maybe I could use a word cut our and gently fill it in with a black marker. This way I could make the dvds cheaper. Most likely I could get it down to 50 cents a dvd but then again some people don't like to bust out the change I could charge a dollar and it would cost me nothing when I decide to give it away for free the for the same amount of time I was charging. This after all might not cost me anything but the nice paper cut our I will print and the marker + the paper case + the tape to enclose the paper + time.

Maybe when people see free software they freak out like some of the people I first set up, because they thought if it didn't cost anything it must not be secure. Also they consider Apple products cost more than Windows stuff and is more secure. So some people get it in there mind if it costs more its better.

Maybe the issue schools don't use this is because they have it set in there mind about cost.

[ST3ALTHPSYCH0]

Or maybe schools don't use it b/c non tech people are afraid of something different, and the techs don't have the time to spend if an update leaves you staring at GRUB> (just one example others available).....

Just a thought.

[cgroza]

How about we just let this thread die?

Thread closed.

It was originally closed due to a troll post, which has been removed, but I'd rather this not turn into an OS bashing thread.

Please change the avatar.... I got freaked our by the picture. Its 00:00 here.

[aysiu]

and the techs don't have the time to spend if an update leaves you staring at GRUB> (just one example others available).....= Right. Because the techs at schools that use Windows have support calls only rarely. Most of the time, they're just twiddling their thumbs.

I work at a mostly Windows school (some Mac), and tech support can hardly keep up with all the problems. Not a mark against Windows. The truth is that tech support will be busy no matter what operating system the school uses. Nothing, despite marketing claims to the contrary, "just works."

[ST3ALTHPSYCH0]

Right. Because the techs at schools that use Windows have support calls only rarely. Most of the time, they're just twiddling their thumbs.

I work at a mostly Windows school (some Mac), and tech support can hardly keep up with all the problems. Not a mark against Windows. The truth is that tech support will be busy no matter what operating system the school uses. Nothing, despite marketing claims to the contrary, "just works."

I too work as a tech at a school, and the slow days we have scare me. I just sit there thinking "what's gonna blow up next?"

[darkstarbyte]

Right. Because the techs at schools that use Windows have support calls only rarely. Most of the time, they're just twiddling their thumbs.

I work at a mostly Windows school (some Mac), and tech support can hardly keep up with all the problems. Not a mark against Windows. The truth is that tech support will be busy no matter what operating system the school uses. Nothing, despite marketing claims to the contrary, "just works."

Well Windows is proprietary and proprietary software is unsecure. Look at Mac they based there stuff off of bsd and is more secure than Windows. Along with Red hat and fedora.

Windows claims it just works. False you need a fire wall, anti-virus, spy ware remover and, malware remover.

So there I win.

[unknownPoster]

Well Windows is proprietary and proprietary software is unsecure. Look at Mac they based there stuff off of bsd and is more secure than Windows. Along with Red hat and fedora.

Windows claims it just works. False you need a fire wall, anti-virus, spy ware remover and, malware remover.

So there I win.

You are wrong. You say that proprietary software is insecure, yet you use Mac OS as an example of security. Mac OS is proprietary software.

Windows does "just work." Windows 7 has driver autodetection. It also has a firewall built in and limited, albeit useful, virus protection software. With Linux this isn't always the case. Windows 7 hardware support is far superior to that of Linux.

Also, any server running Linux that doesn't have a firewall running, is insecure.

Please get your facts straight before you go spreading false statements around the internet. (aka FUD)

[KiwiNZ]

Well Windows is proprietary and proprietary software is unsecure. Look at Mac they based there stuff off of bsd and is more secure than Windows. Along with Red hat and fedora.

Windows claims it just works. False you need a fire wall, anti-virus, spy ware remover and, malware remover.

So there I win.

Does a graffiti vandal do his stuff on a rock in the middle of the Sahara? ....no

Windows has the issues you quote for that reason. If Linux becomes as popular as Windows it to will have those issues. It is no more secure than Windows, it is simply a rock in the dessert. Mac is starting to attract attention. Android will soon.

[darkstarbyte]

Does a graffiti vandal do his stuff on a rock in the middle of the Sahara? ....no

Windows has the issues you quote for that reason. If Linux becomes as popular as Windows it to will have those issues. It is no more secure than Windows, it is simply a rock in the dessert. Mac is starting to attract attention. Android will soon.

That is wrong look at mac its based off of bsd with a weird ui conversion. Macs are popular and they don't get very many viruses, and the ones it does get most of the time you have to have direct access to it, and some on has to put it on. Example the Newton virus. Google it (The Newton virus.)

[grobar87]

In my country (Macedonia) almost every shool and university use linux...(edubuntu) :)
I'm happy for that.

[unknownPoster]

That is wrong look at mac its based off of bsd with a weird ui conversion. Macs are popular and they don't get very many viruses, and the ones it does get most of the time you have to have direct access to it, and some on has to put it on. Example the Newton virus. Google it (The Newton virus.)

Have you ever used Mac OSX in a serious situation? I seriously doubt it.

[darkstarbyte]

Have you ever used Mac OSX in a serious situation? I seriously doubt it.

I own an old mac laptop osx is fast on old hardware to. OS9 i used in elementary every thing was built into the screen exept for the mouse and the key board. This was before I new about Linux. It was the best computer experience I ever had.(At the time I disliked computer games.) Just to tell you I am in high school.

One more thing your logo its like a gimped photo of House half cartoon like, and full cartoon on the other side.

[unknownPoster]

]
One more thing your logo its like a gimped photo of House half cartoon like, and full cartoon on the other side.

That's incorrect. If you don't know what it is and you're American your life is very sheltered, especially if you're in high school. But I fail to see how that applies to the discussion.

Back to what you originally said, perhaps you should gain some more experience in life and the professional IT world before you go off saying that all proprietary software is insecure. With the appropriate knowledge and precautions Windows 7 can be just as secure as any other operating system out there.

[Denis Krajnc]

unknownPoster, as we can see you are a Linux hater. Windows is good, Mac OS is good, Linux is good.
But in the end of the day they're just operating systems. Use what suits you best. I use Linux, because I'm comfortable with it and my productivity is the best. But as stated Windows can be very secure with some modifications, also there is no operating system which is 100% safe.
Schools should have options... For primary schools I do think that Ubuntu would be better than Windows, because it's free, and it got everything for their needs.

[irishbreakfast]

I've skimmed through this thread so I may be mistaken..
It is curious that a conversation about computers and schools hasn't focused on what is best for the learners, our tamariki/children, our future.
I suggest that what is needed is 'stuff' that works, that is accessible to every child (doesn't exclude a child because of cost, the environment it is to be used in, or the ability of the learner etc), that their community can afford (equipment, power, sw etc) and that their community can maintain.
Now, for me, I'd much prefer our school to use FLOSS. That way I know all children can do school work at home, something my children can't always do.

[ST3ALTHPSYCH0]

Alright, I can see situations where Linux in the school could work. Keep in mind, though, that I am an American, and my world view is tinted by my experience. I'm gonna link to an article, but I want you to realize that, although the article in specific is talking about word processors, the concept that is discussed can be cross applied to our discussion.

http://unix.derkeiler.com/Mailing-Lists/FreeBSD/questions/2005-02/2541.html
Also, I realize that the article is 5 years old, but, while business practices do, business principles don't change a lot.

[MooPi]

You are wrong. You say that proprietary software is insecure, yet you use Mac OS as an example of security. Mac OS is proprietary software.

Windows does "just work." Windows 7 has driver autodetection. It also has a firewall built in and limited, albeit useful, virus protection software. With Linux this isn't always the case. Windows 7 hardware support is far superior to that of Linux.

Also, any server running Linux that doesn't have a firewall running, is insecure.

Please get your facts straight before you go spreading false statements around the internet. (aka FUD)
Give it up Mr. Freeman, Mr. Gordon Freeman. Your Black Mesa tricks are trivial to our Linux guru mind control. Now where's my head crab collection ?
And Linux in schools is GOOD !

[darkstarbyte]

You are wrong. You say that proprietary software is insecure, yet you use Mac OS as an example of security. Mac OS is proprietary software.

Windows does "just work." Windows 7 has driver autodetection. It also has a firewall built in and limited, albeit useful, virus protection software. With Linux this isn't always the case. Windows 7 hardware support is far superior to that of Linux.

Also, any server running Linux that doesn't have a firewall running, is insecure.

Please get your facts straight before you go spreading false statements around the internet. (aka FUD)

This slipped me before, but Linux currently supports more hardware than any other operating system out there.(BSD is awesome though it was passed up on exotic hardware support a few years ago.) Has this poster seen the statistics 80% of all viruses on the Internet are compatibleness with Windows 7. So there unknown poster I win.

[KiwiNZ]

This slipped me before, but Linux currently supports more hardware than any other operating system out there.......(.

Citation please.

However I feel this is a case of I will pull a pseudo "fact" from thin air. Case seriously diminished.

[SeijiSensei]

This thread looked like it could be a useful discussion, but it has quickly descended into yet another OS flamewar. Can we stick to the subject of Linux in schools and not rehash all the tired old arguments about which OS is better than another?

I'll reiterate that I think it's more important to make kids aware of the open-source movement and the excellent software it has brought to our lives. Whether they run that software on Windows, Linux or Macs makes less of a difference to me.

Most school administrators, teachers, and techs have no experience with Linux so switching over to it will require massive planning and retraining. Perhaps it's best to start simple. How about a Linux-based internal web server within the school as a start?

[magmon]

In my opinion, you should use punctuation. Also, my school should definately use linux simply for the lack of cost. We already have $3 dollar lunches and a $0.50 bus fee each way, so the last thing the district needs to pay for is OSes.

[cpmman]

When did the OP say that Linux should replace any other OS?

[RiceMonster]

This slipped me before, but Linux currently supports more hardware than any other operating system out there.

That is only arguably true if you're referring to CPU architectures, which is not something a school would care about, since it can be guaranteed that they're using x86.

[ST3ALTHPSYCH0]

:facepalm:
Just because something is free doesn't mean it has no cost. Because, unless a teacher or student is willing to admin the computers for free, a tech to administrate Linux systems commands a higher salary than a Windows sys admin..... Also, most of the computers they buy come with a Windows license so they're not spending EXTRA on those licenses.

[darkstarbyte]

:facepalm:
Just because something is free doesn't mean it has no cost. Because, unless a teacher or student is willing to admin the computers for free, a tech to administrate Linux systems commands a higher salary than a Windows sys admin..... Also, most of the computers they buy come with a Windows license so they're not spending EXTRA on those licenses.


I know a Windows sys admin at my school, and the reason they use Windows is, because it is about like 10-60 dollars per license per computer. After talking about the fees not being that much I quote "Linux is to hard to network." As admins go he is reasonable. They have a gui for everything there.

A few things before we go to far how do I get more beans, and does Ubuntu have anything to do with beans.

[MooPi]

Computers were an oddity when I was in high school so I can't speak to how they are utilized. I have though heard that they are mostly used to teach office productivity skills . Mehhhh, no fun. This can be accomplished on any system/OS. Windows does not lend it's self to tinkering or hacking except for the malicious kind because the software is all locked down and prohibited. Wouldn't it be better to teach the children the actual flexible nature of computing and the diversity of things that can be accomplished on an open system. If all that was ever offered to me was a Windows system I'd never have learned half of what I know now. Open source is all about learning and thinking for your self while not being lead around by some EULA. Capisci

[darkstarbyte]

Computers were an oddity when I was in high school so I can't speak to how they are utilized. I have though heard that they are mostly used to teach office productivity skills . Mehhhh, no fun. This can be accomplished on any system/OS. Windows does not lend it's self to tinkering or hacking except for the malicious kind because the software is all locked down and prohibited. Wouldn't it be better to teach the children the actual flexible nature of computing and the diversity of things that can be accomplished on an open system. If all that was ever offered to me was a Windows system I'd never have learned half of what I know now. Open source is all about learning and thinking for your self while not being lead around by some EULA. Capisci

First thing I like the name, and the picture they go along.

The biggest delay I have seen with Linux is the gaming issue. Every person I switch really miss the gaming ability.

[jrothwell97]

Right. Because the techs at schools that use Windows have support calls only rarely. Most of the time, they're just twiddling their thumbs.

I work at a mostly Windows school (some Mac), and tech support can hardly keep up with all the problems. Not a mark against Windows. The truth is that tech support will be busy no matter what operating system the school uses. Nothing, despite marketing claims to the contrary, "just works."

This is true (and several pages back, I know), but I'd just like to expand on it.

With my IT tech's hat on (and I do have experience working in education IT systems), implementing an Ubuntu system on desktops in a school would be a colossal pain. Upgrading an existing Windows XP infrastructure to Windows 7 would be slightly less of a pain because I wouldn't have to retrain the staff and the children as much - I could, in all probability, get away with a "What's New!" poster to be stuck next to computers - however, it would still be a pain from a technical standpoint.

One important aspect to consider is support contracts. I, for example, would want assurance that if I were to have a problem that we couldn't solve, I could scream at someone over the phone to come and fix it for me.

This is where companies like Microsoft and RM have the advantage: even if Ubuntu Advantage is excellent, MS have the backing of being a very stable multi-national company, with (in some cases) decades of experience to draw upon - along with laison officers you probably know well and have a good working relationship with. Some outfits such as RM are specialised in education, even providing modified distributions of Windows to integrate with their Community Connect software.

From a CIO's point of view, this seems to be a more secure investment than buying a contract from a small London outfit that might not even be making a profit yet.

Of course, you could buy from Red Hat or Novell: however, we then still have the barriers of re-training everyone, transferring data across (a lot harder than you might think, if it's in something like SharePoint or Exchange) to the new system, ensuring software compatibility, ensuring no functionality is lost, documenting the new system, etc. etc. I won't deny that these problems also exist with a Windows upgrade, but they're significantly reduced if you're moving from XP to 7.

(GUIS are also a massive selling point, because it's easier to sniff your way around and play with a GUI than with a terminal-based system, which is all most Linux servers seem to provide. Webmin doesn't count.)

[squilookle]

I don't think the OS the schools use matters as long as it meets their needs, and they can get the software they need for it.

My school ran a mixture of Acorn computers running RISCOS and PC's running Windows 95 and NT4.

I do believe I benefited from having the different operating systems as I learned that computing does not start and end with Windows, which I'm sure alot of people don't realise.

Otherwise, I don't think the OS is that important so long as the computers do what they have to do. :)

[cprofitt]

How much does a certified Linux IT Admin cost compared to the basic IT guy that only know Windows?


red herring warning.

Why would they need a certified Linux IT Admin and not a certified Microsoft or Apple IT Admin?

Perhaps a 'basic IT guy' could know Linux as well.


They had purchased some new Servers but did not buy Services contracts as they had a "so called IT savvy guy" on the Board of Trustees that would look after things. When one server went down he panic set in , by passed best practices, shut down the second , no back ups done, he had not connect the UPS's correctly. Had not carried out the back up regime correctly and a lot was lost.

He did a lot of damage to two servers that cost a lot of money to repair. IBM had no obligation to do so as there was no service contract purchased but put in many hour work to put it all right and charged only a token fee for this and replaced one Server and well below cost.

One instance does not make a generalization true. Nor does my case make it false... but I suspect generalizations are a bad thing in general.

Certified folks can be bad or good... non-certified folks can be bad or good... I think there are plenty of examples to cite for both cases -- which really means each person needs to be judged on their own merit.


Is the point of computers at school to learn how they work or is it to be used as a resource?

Unless it's in a computer tech class, it's not meant to teach people computer skills.

Embedded learning is supposed to take place. Embedded learning is where learning of subject A takes place while students are focuses on learning subject B. Like math being reinforced by students doing calculations for science.

Computer skills are taught when kids do auto-cad, research or write papers... not just when they are learning about how to build a computer or write a program.


don't see the OS a that big an issue, but as pointed out already, MS office is the business standard, open office is a damn good attempt to copy it, but it has flaws when opening and saving in non native .doc format, especially with complex macro documents, they don't port accurately so students should have MS office to learn on...and I think there is a whopping institutional discount for it

Word Perfect was once a business standard and IBM once sold desktops and laptops. There is a large institutional discount which works much like the crack dealer at the corner who hands out free addictive drugs. Students, other than at the upper edu levels, have to pay $149 for the teacher/student edition of the software and then once they graduate they are addicted to the product and have to pay $600. It is one thing to have a preference, but another to require a specific product.


Right. Because the techs at schools that use Windows have support calls only rarely. Most of the time, they're just twiddling their thumbs.

I work at a mostly Windows school (some Mac), and tech support can hardly keep up with all the problems. Not a mark against Windows. The truth is that tech support will be busy no matter what operating system the school uses. Nothing, despite marketing claims to the contrary, "just works."

Yep,... tech support will be busy regardless. I have users who can not use MS Word or Excel now... and they would have the same issues with Open Office.

[Dustin2128]

GUIS are also a massive selling point, because it's easier to sniff your way around and play with a GUI than with a terminal-based system, which is all most Linux servers seem to provide. Webmin doesn't count.)
I disagree, though the learning curve is a bit steeper, terminal tools are almost always more powerful than guis.

I also found this when I was browsing gnu.org: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/schools.html

for the lazy:
Why Schools Should Exclusively Use Free Software

by Richard Stallman (http://www.stallman.org/)
There are general reasons why all computer users should insist on free software: it gives users the freedom to control their own computers—with proprietary software, the computer does what the software owner wants it to do, not what the user wants it to do. Free software also gives users the freedom to cooperate with each other, to lead an upright life. These reasons apply to schools as they do to everyone.
The purpose of this article is to state additional reasons that apply specifically to education.
First, free software can save schools money. Free software gives schools, like other users, the freedom to copy and redistribute the software, so the school system can make copies for all the computers they have. In poor countries, this can help close the digital divide.
This obvious reason, while important in practical terms, is rather shallow. And proprietary software developers can eliminate this reason by donating copies to the schools. (Warning: a school that accepts such an offer may have to pay for upgrades later.) So let's look at the deeper reasons.
Schools have a social mission: to teach students to be citizens of a strong, capable, independent, cooperating and free society. They should promote the use of free software just as they promote recycling. If schools teach students free software, then the students will tend to use free software after they graduate. This will help society as a whole escape from being dominated (and gouged) by megacorporations.
What schools should refuse to do is teach dependence. Those corporations offer free samples to schools for the same reason tobacco companies distribute free cigarettes to minors: to get children addicted (1) (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/schools.html#1). They will not give discounts to these students once they've grown up and graduated.
Free software permits students to learn how software works. Some students, on reaching their teens, want to learn everything there is to know about their computer and its software. They are intensely curious to read the source code of the programs that they use every day. To learn to write good code, students need to read lots of code and write lots of code. They need to read and understand real programs that people really use. Only free software permits this.
Proprietary software rejects their thirst for knowledge: it says, “The knowledge you want is a secret—learning is forbidden!” Free software encourages everyone to learn. The free software community rejects the “priesthood of technology”, which keeps the general public in ignorance of how technology works; we encourage students of any age and situation to read the source code and learn as much as they want to know. Schools that use free software will enable gifted programming students to advance.
The deepest reason for using free software in schools is for moral education. We expect schools to teach students basic facts and useful skills, but that is not their whole job. The most fundamental job of schools is to teach good citizenship, which includes the habit of helping others. In the area of computing, this means teaching people to share software. Schools, starting from nursery school, should tell their pupils, “If you bring software to school, you must share it with the other students. And you must show the source code to the class, in case someone wants to learn.”
Of course, the school must practice what it preaches: all the software installed by the school should be available for students to copy, take home, and redistribute further.
Teaching the students to use free software, and to participate in the free software community, is a hands-on civics lesson. It also teaches students the role model of public service rather than that of tycoons. All levels of school should use free software.

(1)RJ Reynolds Tobacco Company was fined $15m in 2002 for handing out free samples of cigarettes at events attended by children. See http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/sci_tech/features/health/tobaccotrial/usa.htm.

[KiwiNZ]

Schools should be neutral and push neither free nor non free.

[unknownPoster]

unknownPoster, as we can see you are a Linux hater. Windows is good, Mac OS is good, Linux is good.
But in the end of the day they're just operating systems. Use what suits you best. I use Linux, because I'm comfortable with it and my productivity is the best. But as stated Windows can be very secure with some modifications, also there is no operating system which is 100% safe.
Schools should have options... For primary schools I do think that Ubuntu would be better than Windows, because it's free, and it got everything for their needs.


I am NOT a Linux Hater, and to assume as much is insulting at best. I use it nearly every day of my life at both work and school (I'm a senior in Computer Science and also a Server Admin/Programmer for my school's IT department.) and I enjoy it for what I use it for. However, I am a hater of misinformation, and I saw it being spread, so I replied as such.

Again, please get your facts straight before you start calling people names.

[darkstarbyte]

You know what? Lets not start an operating system war here. Go to a forum dedicated to an operating system war if you want to fight one.

[KiwiNZ]

I am closing this now, before things get further dramatic.

[KiwiNZ]

After discussion with the OP I have reopened this thread. Please stay on topic and can we please not have an OS bash fest with this. There is enough of that in Recurring Discussions to fulfill your needs if that is what one wants.

Thanks

[darkstarbyte]

I talked to an IT, and he said "Linux is to hard to network" and then he said "We are never going to have a Linux lab.".

After looking at the windows command line codes I see why they have a cluster option built in along with a file sharing option built in. I wonder if anyone here can do something that is that easy for ITs.

[t0p]

I talked to an IT, and he said "Linux is to hard to network" and then he said "We are never going to have a Linux lab.".


That was, of course, a ridiculous statement. Linux and networking go together like... well, like 2 things that go really well together.

What your friend meant was that he doesn't know how to set up a Linux network. And this is the problem. People are taught how to use Word, not word processors. They are taught Excel, not spreadsheets. If people are trained in using a particular application, that's all they'll know.

If you get to the child before he has been taught the Microsoft way, you can teach him to use anything. This is what I think would be a good solution: teach younger children how to use computer applications in general rather than a particular product. Because the child is not already dependent on Windows, you can use Linux just as easily as anything else. When the child is older, it may be necessary for him to know how to use Word - but because he was taught how to use word processing software when he was younger, he'll pick up Word skills quickly.

This kind of approach will mean teachers and tech support staff need some retraining so they know how to use Linux-based software. But that shouldn't be such a big problem: teachers and tech support staff have to learn new stuff all the time anyway; if a teacher can't learn how to use new software I question his ability to teach. Similarly, if a tech support staff member can't learn how to set up a Linux-based network he should change career. If you can't learn to use new software, a computer-related career is not for you.

[aysiu]

What your friend meant was that he doesn't know how to set up a Linux network. And this is the problem. People are taught how to use Word, not word processors. They are taught Excel, not spreadsheets. If people are trained in using a particular application, that's all they'll know. It's worse than that, actually. I know many people trained in applications, and they don't even know the application--only that particular version of the application. So if they know how to do things in Word 2003, then Word 2007 confuses them, because they didn't learn concepts. Instead, they memorized steps.

[oldsoundguy]

In the VERY early days of computers to schools .. most that went to schools were APPLE computers. Yet business settled on Windows as the way to go because of the "killer" app of the time .. MS Office (Word was so much easier to learn than any other offered!). So those kids that learned on Apple had to re-learn.

PERSONALLY, I feel that the three systems that are in MOST usage in the real world should be taught side by side. (Windows/OSx/Unix-Linux).

Then let the market decide!

[jrothwell97]

It's worse than that, actually. I know many people trained in applications, and they don't even know the application--only that particular version of the application. So if they know how to do things in Word 2003, then Word 2007 confuses them, because they didn't learn concepts. Instead, they memorized steps.

QFT.

It's worth noting that computers are the only things in the world that seem to be taught like this. You don't memorise steps to learn to drive a car or operate a food processor: you know (or can work out) what all the controls do, you apply that to make it do what you want it to do.

The appalling "IT" classes taught in schools and libraries would be far better if they simply went through what a button was and what it did, how menus worked, how to manage windows, etc. etc.

You don't teach someone to drive by making them memorise how to drive from their house to the shops.

[el_heffe]

It's worse than that, actually. I know many people trained in applications, and they don't even know the application--only that particular version of the application. So if they know how to do things in Word 2003, then Word 2007 confuses them, because they didn't learn concepts. Instead, they memorized steps.

I am running a small segment of an Army network, roughly 400 Windows XP systems, while forward deployed to Afghanistan. This is not my first rodeo in this arena but this time I am in charge of several Soldiers and a NCO. This very point you are making is something they refuse to understand! If you learn the concepts, when we return to the states and are working on Vista, or whatever crap we get, we will still be able to complete our tasks!

As for schools- I believe that labs should be all Apple computers that can triple boot into Ubuntu, some variant of Windows, and OS X. The hardware would be more expensive, but you would gain versatility in that you would be able to have an Apple class, reboot and be in a Windows class. Reboot, and your in a Linux class.

Once you have a network up, setting the individual OS's up to work on said network can be relatively easy. Just my two cents.

[Aerospaztic]

Schools are funded by the government, and taxpayer's money should not require a non-open-source OS. All that does is give Microsoft power and leaves students with an expensive virus magnet with the most annoying default settings in the universe. At least with open-source, the programmers around the world that want to help can advance the software in a way that everyone likes, instead of forcing everyone to endure the controlled experience of a proprietary resource vampire like Windows.

[NikoC]

I think people should be exposed to different flavors (OSs, software) so they can work out for themselves what they like best. Now, a lot of 'monoflavorists' have never even heard of open source and nice alternatives such as linux, openoffice, gimp, R, etc. which is saddening. Often they are so embedded in 'what I'm familiar with', the threshold to try something new is simply too high.

I've worked myself through DOS, a whole bunch of Windows versions, a trunk load of linux distros to end up with Ubuntu on my office machine and Mac OS on a MacBook Pro at home.

[everytimeref]

QFT.

It's worth noting that computers are the only things in the world that seem to be taught like this. You don't memorise steps to learn to drive a car or operate a food processor: you know (or can work out) what all the controls do, you apply that to make it do what you want it to do.

The appalling "IT" classes taught in schools and libraries would be far better if they simply went through what a button was and what it did, how menus worked, how to manage windows, etc. etc.

You don't teach someone to drive by making them memorise how to drive from their house to the shops.


You've hit the nail on the head. This is an incredibly astute post.

When trying how to explain how to accomplish a particular computer based task where I work, someone always gets out a note book and starts to write : Step 1, Step 2 etc. You can bet that when they hit a problem, even a simple one they won't have the first clue what to do. I always try and say "don't memorise what I am doing, try and understand it...."

my seven year old uses Linux in the House and XP (shudder) at school. She moves back and forth between them without comment, because she understands what she is trying to do.

[Raiyan]

School should use Ubuntu at least partially. Sure they can still use Windows and Macs but at least some schol computers should run Linux. I do agree that schools tend to use programs that are Windows only for special classes (Adobe Photoshop, Adobe Flash, iMovie, Garage band)

[yesrno]

Well I think it kinda depends on how much budget the school has, or wants to spend on computer equipment. I mean they sure can save hell of a lot of money by using an free OS and Open Office but leaving the students with less "MS Office/Windows knowledge" But if they have enough money to spend then Windows would probably be the most logical choice.
Also kind of depends on what education you're following, I mean perhaps a school could use a free OS for some kind of IT training (To experience something other than Windows) and just Office/Windows for euhmm, well a secretary training for example.

[kaldor]

Seems like some people are only saying it should be used because "it's Ubuntu".

I said this way back on the thread, but instead of paying hundreds and thousands of dollars on Windows 7 upgrades and some crappy software nobody uses anyway, we should put the money towards textbooks (my biology textbook in highschool was missing the cover and the last 200 pages) and supplies so that students in Canada don't need to sit on wooden plank desks from the 50's.

[corrytonapple]

If they use Ubuntu, they will have little knowledge of how to use Windows, which is what the rest of the world uses. Go in to the public library or look in at most small and large businesses, and you will see they are running Windows. Sure they can figure it out, but that is going to take time. Just a different view on it.

[murderslastcrow]

Right. So they also shouldn't be using Macs in schools, either, by that judgement. Use the best tool for the job. I think people overestimate the differences between operating systems.

If my grandparents can just hop on and understand Linux, then why can't a kid? I think the main issue here is that, when they do come into contact with Windows, they'll wonder why it has to be so difficult in obvious ways, like slow-downs, crashes from clicking on a working window, malware, slow file transfers, no easy way to install software (compared to Linux), etc. They will likely become frustrated at the lack of obvious features and the addition of issues no Windows user is fond of. I'm not talking design decisions here, I'm just talking about the crappiness of the latest iterations of Windows.

Of course, it shouldn't be ignored that they will probably come into contact with Windows. However, I think that, unless it's necessary to use Windows or OS X for a specific Wine-incompatible application, there's no reason not to use Linux as much as possible. I mean, name one serious general hurdle outside of that.

Also, I don't think people should learn just Linux, just Windows, or just OS X in schools. They should learn them all to some extent, which will help the industry to focus on cross-platform standards in order to accomodate schools. Software should be good for you and fit your needs, not the other way around.

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but this article points to a lot of good reasons to use Linux in schools. http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2010/09/linux_in_schools.php

Of course, as Operating Systems are becoming simpler to use and altogether better, the differences are becoming more and more either placement issues or deep technical issues (security, protocols, graphics drivers, formats), so the students will be dealing with either a slightly different interface between OSes or a deep technical issue that shouldn't really be there (a bug). Of course, these are happening less frequently, and the contrast will continue to grow as the technology continues to mature. It will be odd to see a crash.

That is, if Windows ever changes, or we all ditch it and realize those problems shouldn't be common.