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winjeel
August 26th, 2010, 02:16 AM
As the name implies: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2010/08/steve-jobs-watching-you-apple-seeking-patent-0 Though, I think he personally has got better things to do. I think Windows ME had similar accusations made about it; I don't know if they were baseless, an overreaction, or justified.

I'm concerned because I want my digital freedom. Also, I didn't want to carry both a mobile phone and a music player; I wanted to make phone calls, do e-mail, and web surfing. Still today, for expats in Japan, the iPhone is the only option (Blackberries and Androids haven't been able to penetrate the highly protective Japanese market).

As an iPhone user... I'm feeling ever more embarrassed having bought one nearly two years ago. This is not the system I wanted. In any case, especially for those who've jail-broken their iPhone (I've been considering it)... what's next? Never updating nor syncing? Replacing the iPhone OS completely with something else? It'd be a waste to dispose of this hardware. It'd be interesting to hear if there are any (realistic) options.

A reminder before you reply, please mind your Ps and Qs (forum rules).

Fableflame
August 26th, 2010, 02:44 AM
Surely they won't get this patent, this is a clear invasion of privacy.
Imagine what someone could do with this kind of information if someone got into Apple's servers.

Error: Unknown
August 26th, 2010, 02:51 AM
The article is errant reffering to "your iPhone"; legally they are Apple's, not yours. Proprietary Hardware

chris200x9
August 26th, 2010, 02:53 AM
figures, he wants to see my peepee...

Dr. C
August 26th, 2010, 03:48 AM
As the name implies: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2010/08/steve-jobs-watching-you-apple-seeking-patent-0 Though, I think he personally has got better things to do. I think Windows ME had similar accusations made about it; I don't know if they were baseless, an overreaction, or justified.

I'm concerned because I want my digital freedom. Also, I didn't want to carry both a mobile phone and a music player; I wanted to make phone calls, do e-mail, and web surfing. Still today, for expats in Japan, the iPhone is the only option (Blackberries and Androids haven't been able to penetrate the highly protective Japanese market).

As an iPhone user... I'm feeling ever more embarrassed having bought one nearly two years ago. This is not the system I wanted. In any case, especially for those who've jail-broken their iPhone (I've been considering it)... what's next? Never updating nor syncing? Replacing the iPhone OS completely with something else? It'd be a waste to dispose of this hardware. It'd be interesting to hear if there are any (realistic) options.

A reminder before you reply, please mind your Ps and Qs (forum rules).

One can try a search for "install Android on iPhone" on a major search engine. Not for the faint of heart but it can be done.

I must say the patent does give the creeps and reinforces the belief that in order to preserve ones digital freedom one must avoid Apple.

Chris1274
August 26th, 2010, 03:56 AM
The article is errant reffering to "your iPhone"; legally they are Apple's, not yours. Proprietary Hardware

I'm not at all familiar with Apple. So if I buy a MacBook and completely replace OS X with Ubuntu, does Apple still maintain some sort of proprietary rights over the hardware?

Cam!
August 26th, 2010, 03:59 AM
Apple's not seeking to create some sort of Big Brother-ish technology. They're simply patenting a basic concept of security technology that enlists the help of cameras and biometrics.

IIRC, back in the early 2000's, they tried to patent a fingerprint-tracking surface.

KiwiNZ
August 26th, 2010, 04:03 AM
The article is errant reffering to "your iPhone"; legally they are Apple's, not yours. Proprietary Hardware

That is completely wrong and I would conjecture designed to be flame bait. Please don't.

This thread is officially on watch

Austin25
August 26th, 2010, 04:09 AM
I hate software patents, but this is worse. I didn't want to anyways, but now I know I will not be buying an iPhone, at least not for conventional reasons.Would it not be possible to do a hardware hack and spoof camera microphone to send bad data to Apple?

juancarlospaco
August 26th, 2010, 04:10 AM
Just in case....
http://blog.puntoabierto.net/wp-content/uploads/extintor.png

I think is not enought info there, but it destroy the users feeling by common sense
:)

winjeel
August 26th, 2010, 04:29 AM
Android on iPhone... I would consider it if it was quick and easy to install, and importantly, if I have no problems with my mobile phone carrier. I really don't have time to mess around with gadgets. I was... peeved off with the time I lost trying to reinstall my OS the last time I had to do it. Perhaps given time, an easy-to-install version of Android would become available... hopefully.

cascade9
August 26th, 2010, 04:37 AM
Interesting that some of the 'features' this would provide to apple were (rumoured) to be avaible to (at least some) of the inteligenece organisations a few years ago, and caused at least a minor rukus due to the amount of potential for covert information gathering.

Apple is taking this futher? Very interesting. I'll be watching this, with more information it could be final straw for some of the people I know who still waver on apple.


That is completely wrong and I would conjecture designed to be flame bait. Please don't.

This thread is officially on watch

I submit that any moderation done on this thread should be done by admins/moderators apart from KiwiNZ.

You've made various pro-apple posts over the time I've been here, and that alone should be enough to disalllow any action as a moderator in this thread, thereby avoiding any potential appearance of bias.

juancarlospaco
August 26th, 2010, 04:45 AM
This Forum is not anti-apple, we got an apple sub-forum. (http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=328) :)

KiwiNZ
August 26th, 2010, 05:06 AM
Interesting that some of the 'features' this would provide to apple were (rumoured) to be avaible to (at least some) of the inteligenece organisations a few years ago, and caused at least a minor rukus due to the amount of potential for covert information gathering.

Apple is taking this futher? Very interesting. I'll be watching this, with more information it could be final straw for some of the people I know who still waver on apple.



I submit that any moderation done on this thread should be done by admins/moderators apart from KiwiNZ.

You've made various pro-apple posts over the time I've been here, and that alone should be enough to disalllow any action as a moderator in this thread, thereby avoiding any potential appearance of bias.

I submit something a little better. If all posts are done inline with the Forum guidelines then there is now need for any Moderation.;)

http://ubuntuforums.org/index.php?page=policy

pwnst*r
August 26th, 2010, 05:18 AM
As the name implies: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2010/08/steve-jobs-watching-you-apple-seeking-patent-0 Though, I think he personally has got better things to do. I think Windows ME had similar accusations made about it; I don't know if they were baseless, an overreaction, or justified.

I'm concerned because I want my digital freedom. Also, I didn't want to carry both a mobile phone and a music player; I wanted to make phone calls, do e-mail, and web surfing. Still today, for expats in Japan, the iPhone is the only option (Blackberries and Androids haven't been able to penetrate the highly protective Japanese market).

As an iPhone user... I'm feeling ever more embarrassed having bought one nearly two years ago. This is not the system I wanted. In any case, especially for those who've jail-broken their iPhone (I've been considering it)... what's next? Never updating nor syncing? Replacing the iPhone OS completely with something else? It'd be a waste to dispose of this hardware. It'd be interesting to hear if there are any (realistic) options.

A reminder before you reply, please mind your Ps and Qs (forum rules).

1) Don't lose sleep over it.

2) You can most certainly sync to your heart's content with a jailbroken iPhone, but you cannot update it until the update is jailbroken. Not a big deal by any stretch of the imagination.

Austin25
August 26th, 2010, 05:25 AM
I think (hope) this will end poorly for Apple.

Error: Unknown
August 26th, 2010, 12:26 PM
That is completely wrong and I would conjecture designed to be flame bait. Please don't.
I apologize, sir, for coming across as such. I realize this is not a good start for me and shall attempt to do better.

Oxwivi
August 26th, 2010, 12:42 PM
So Apple users are now criminals on the run whose every movement is tracked? Or is this an epic project to make a slice-of-life story?

:popcorn:

Enjoy the movie, 'whoever-is-watching-the-users'.

Grenage
August 26th, 2010, 12:50 PM
I got my iphone for free (I wouldn't pay that much for a phone), and it's the best phone I've ever owned. It's jailbroken simply so that I can use a different network.

As for the technology in that article, which I'd take with the most extreme pinch of salt, there are two ways to look at it.

A) An invasion of privacy.
B) A great security feature, in case your phone gets nicked.

Either way, people know what they're buying into when they get a phone; it's their choice.

Oxwivi
August 26th, 2010, 12:54 PM
If the owner was given the say when this tracking option to be activated, then I'd say it's great security feature. But this is completely in the hands of Apple, not even the cops for Pete's sake! Hell, Apple could even activate the software just for the sake of it...

Madspyman
August 26th, 2010, 01:00 PM
Lol, Jail breaking is now legal, so Apple is developing software to punish users for not breaking the law.

I'm pretty sure putting Android on the iPhone would be considered a legal alternative to so-called "traitorware".

fatality_uk
August 26th, 2010, 01:09 PM
The article is errant reffering to "your iPhone"; legally they are Apple's, not yours. Proprietary Hardware

No. You purchase the hardware. The software on the phone is licensed to you for use.

aytech
August 26th, 2010, 01:34 PM
Of course it will be bad for business. Apple knows it, also i believe they do understand the fact that even if they do it secretly and it will be discovered, the news will spread in the community very quickly. Its like cutting the branch on which you're sitting.

btw, i never understood the hype around these Macs and iPhones \\:D/

Oxwivi
August 26th, 2010, 01:44 PM
Neither did I, it apparently is for extremely non-technical and absolute out-of-the-box users, according to some reviews.

whiskeylover
August 26th, 2010, 02:53 PM
btw, i never understood the hype around these Macs and iPhones \\:D/

But they're shiny!

I actually bought an iPhone for my wife (shakes head) and she likes it because she's not someone who likes to tinker with and customize her phone. She likes that it just works. Me, on the other hand, have an Android phone (had a WinMo previously) and love how must customization can be done on these devices. I even have the Android SDK on my computer and write small apps just for fun... legally.

Oxwivi
August 26th, 2010, 03:10 PM
Get her an Android phone with apps similar to the ones she's using on iPhone.

whiskeylover
August 26th, 2010, 03:16 PM
Get her an Android phone with apps similar to the ones she's using on iPhone.

I'm not super rich to be buying her phones left and right : )

Frogs Hair
August 26th, 2010, 03:32 PM
Of course it will be bad for business. Apple knows it, also i believe they do understand the fact that even if they do it secretly and it will be discovered, the news will spread in the community very quickly. Its like cutting the branch on which you're sitting.

btw, i never understood the hype around these Macs and iPhones \\:D/

Me Too !

sataris
August 26th, 2010, 03:55 PM
You have the option of jailbreaking your phone.

you have the option of not using a valid copy of windows.

Both companies have the right to ensure their products are being used as intended, as they cannot support any unauthorized mods and jailbreaking/pirating leads to various inherent security flaws as the originating companies cannot maintain/update/secure unauthorized copies.

TLDR:

You can jailbreak, and they can brick your stuff for doing so. It has and always will be the way it is. Windows can be de-auth and all internet devices (Eth0 and Wireless) disabled by their KB updates.

This is not new.

If you dont want to deal either dont buy apple products, or dont jailbreak your phone. Risks are known upfront. At the risk of being warned, QFT and spreading fud and trying to rile ppl up.

Oxwivi
August 26th, 2010, 04:24 PM
Yes, both companies have the right to ensure their products are used as intended. But what part of tracking every freaking thing an individual does is gonna help them to ensure their products are used as intended? Are you telling me threatening someone's privacy is a good way to do it?

Grenage
August 26th, 2010, 04:31 PM
Yes, both companies have the right to ensure their products are used as intended. But what part of tracking every freaking thing an individual does is gonna help them to ensure their products are used as intended? Are you telling me threatening someone's privacy is a good way to do it?

Conversely:

A system that protects their data and privacy?

sataris
August 26th, 2010, 04:32 PM
A. Article is wrong. They are developing software that will allow them to brick (make unusable) your apple devices that you hack.

B. If they were SPYING on you, and you agreed to the EULA, well your fault. They can change the EULA for their software anytime they want. All they have to do is update it. They could own the rights to everything you owned if you agreed to the EULA and it had a clause stating such in it.

C. Google already does this. They store the data semi-anonymously and use it for marketing. Who refuses to use google based on that fact and does NOT wear a tin foil hat.

D. Even if they did create spy software that allowed Steve Jobs to watch every thing you do, who would analyze the data? The US intelligence agencies dont even have enough personnel to go through the hundreds of thousands of hours of video footage from the wars in Iraq+Afghanistan they have taken with Unmanned Aerial Vehicles. This does not include confiscated data or intercepted phone calls.

E. More to follow, as i'm sure there will be more troll comments for me to :popcorn: at

Grenage
August 26th, 2010, 04:34 PM
B. If they were SPYING on you, and you agreed to the EULA, well your fault. They can change the EULA for their software anytime they want. All they have to do is update it. They could own the rights to everything you owned if you agreed to the EULA and it had a clause stating such in it.

I agree with you, but there are limits to what the EULA can enforce.

Dr. C
August 26th, 2010, 04:36 PM
You have the option of jailbreaking your phone.

you have the option of not using a valid copy of windows.

Both companies have the right to ensure their products are being used as intended, as they cannot support any unauthorized mods and jailbreaking/pirating leads to various inherent security flaws as the originating companies cannot maintain/update/secure unauthorized copies.

TLDR:

You can jailbreak, and they can brick your stuff for doing so. It has and always will be the way it is. Windows can be de-auth and all internet devices (Eth0 and Wireless) disabled by their KB updates.

This is not new.

If you dont want to deal either dont buy apple products, or dont jailbreak your phone. Risks are known upfront. At the risk of being warned, QFT and spreading fud and trying to rile ppl up.

Jailbreaking an iPhone and pirating Windows are too very different things. Furthermore companies do not have the right to prevent perfectly legal uses of their products after they have sold them. Why because they no longer own them.

What we have here is the deliberate self destruct of a product by the manufacturer, in an attempt to prevent a perfectly legal use of the product after it is sold and a patent on the self destruct mechanism.

By the way this is not limited to Apple. Motorola is doing the same kind of thing with its eFuse technology on Andriod.

sataris
August 26th, 2010, 04:37 PM
Yes there are, however if they hypothetically installed spy software that was activated when you installed an unsupported os/hack/jailbreak on your device, and only collected data in regards to the EULA breach in order to take further action (IE brick phone) then they are well within their rights if they did that as long as it's been documented.

sataris
August 26th, 2010, 04:39 PM
Snipped.

Just as microsoft and sony retain the rights to their OS on the Xbox and PS3 and can ban them from the network for being modded in ANY way,

Apple can do the same with their products.

TNT1
August 26th, 2010, 04:43 PM
Sorry, I must have been asleep, or the memo went straight to my junk-mail folder, but who the $%^& is steve jobs, and what is he in my life?

sataris
August 26th, 2010, 04:49 PM
To the OP, regardless if the article is true, half true, or blatant FUD,

Apple is notorious about being closed and cutting people off at the knees who do unsupported things with their hardware/software.

If anyone has issue with how they do business, dont buy their overpriced junk then its GG.

*EDIT*
- And the EFF has a habit of over-exaggerating EVERYTHING that concerns apple or microsoft so that alone makes me think they are way off base with what the software will be designed/used for.

Oxwivi
August 26th, 2010, 05:00 PM
Conversely:

A system that protects their data and privacy?
What part of tracking someone's life is supposed to protect data and privacy?

sataris
August 26th, 2010, 05:02 PM
What part of tracking someone's life is supposed to protect data and privacy?
I give up.

Some ppl only hear what they want. Maybe this thread will get locked before the FUD continues ruminating.

Grenage
August 26th, 2010, 05:16 PM
What part of tracking someone's life is supposed to protect data and privacy?

Tracking someone's life? Did you even read the article, or did you just jump on the nerd rage bandwagon? Some parts to note:


technology that, among other things, would allow

presumably will

would allow

Apple could

patent application suggests it may

I like this one:

Here's a sample of the kinds of information Apple plans to collect:
Substantiated?

The system can x 5

can be monitored

can be gathered

can contact

may also

I've found more grounded, founded information on bubblegum wrappers - seriously.

If any of their patents were applied in technology (say, a future iphone), you don't have to buy one. The system could just as easily be used to lock a handset to a particular user as it could for 'collecting fingerprints'. Presumably so they can then use this invaluable data to frame you for the murder of some random orphan, naturally committed by a Satanic Apple employee.

TNT1
August 26th, 2010, 05:23 PM
I give up.

Some ppl only hear what they want. Maybe this thread will get locked before the FUD continues ruminating.

I can get a thread locked, and an infarction, and a suspension all in the same post... Trust me... I are East Rand....

sataris
August 26th, 2010, 05:57 PM
Snipped
The article WAS from the EFF. What did you expect? We all just got trolled.

reyfer
August 26th, 2010, 07:12 PM
You have the option of jailbreaking your phone.

you have the option of not using a valid copy of windows.

Both companies have the right to ensure their products are being used as intended, as they cannot support any unauthorized mods and jailbreaking/pirating leads to various inherent security flaws as the originating companies cannot maintain/update/secure unauthorized copies.

TLDR:

You can jailbreak, and they can brick your stuff for doing so. It has and always will be the way it is. Windows can be de-auth and all internet devices (Eth0 and Wireless) disabled by their KB updates.

This is not new.

If you dont want to deal either dont buy apple products, or dont jailbreak your phone. Risks are known upfront. At the risk of being warned, QFT and spreading fud and trying to rile ppl up.
Sataris, I'm not sure if you got the news when it happened, but...jailbreaking or unlocking a phone is legal according to the Copyright Office and Librarian of Congress....you may want to check that up. What Apple can do is void the warranty, but they cannot LEGALLY brick your iPhone because you jailbreak

Sporkman
August 26th, 2010, 07:20 PM
infarction

Myocardial?

TNT1
August 26th, 2010, 07:25 PM
Myocardial?

Bowel...

KiwiNZ
August 26th, 2010, 08:02 PM
I look at the the link in the original post . I consider carefully that source, hmmm much ado about nothing.

Zorgoth
August 26th, 2010, 08:43 PM
So what about the source's source?

http://www.patentvest.com/console/reports/docs/app/20100207721.html

KiwiNZ
August 26th, 2010, 08:50 PM
So what about the source's source?

http://www.patentvest.com/console/reports/docs/app/20100207721.html

That source is OK

Its the original EFF and their ummm odd interpretation of the intention of the application.

sataris
August 26th, 2010, 09:21 PM
Sataris, I'm not sure if you got the news when it happened, but...jailbreaking or unlocking a phone is legal according to the Copyright Office and Librarian of Congress....you may want to check that up. What Apple can do is void the warranty, but they cannot LEGALLY brick your iPhone because you jailbreak

:facepalm:

I love how ppl hear OMG its legal, yet again look at what sony and microsoft do in regards to when someone mods a gaming console they manufacture. They neuter it by blocking it from the network.

So yes, it may be legal to do w/e you want with your phone, however, the software license allows them to take steps to mitigate damage to their infrastructure, network, et al.

If you can mod a phone, then you could theoretically place an OS like Backtrack 4 on it. If you can do that, you can hack networks, if you can do that, you can even go as far as selling unlocked Iphones with backtrack 4 on it, to script kiddie hackers. Now if you were Apple wouldnt you take steps to prevent people using your products maliciously AND profiting off your hardware?

I love the law advice on the internet. You'd think there were nothing but UCLA lawyers running around this joint.

As I have stated, Kiwi has stated, and many others in this thread have stated, The article is wrong regarding them able to see and record EVERYTHING you do, That is fud and anti-everything Zealotry at its finest. If you believe that article, you just got RMS'd.

But since you're quoting, I'll even make it easy to dispute your statements since instead of reading mine, you picked one point, combined it with an article that is unreliable at best, and posted it.



A. Article is wrong. They are developing software that will allow them to brick (make unusable) your apple devices that you hack.

B. If they were SPYING on you, and you agreed to the EULA, well your fault. They can change the EULA for their software anytime they want. All they have to do is update it. They could own the rights to everything you owned if you agreed to the EULA and it had a clause stating such in it.

C. Google already does this. They store the data semi-anonymously and use it for marketing. Who refuses to use google based on that fact and does NOT wear a tin foil hat.

D. Even if they did create spy software that allowed Steve Jobs to watch every thing you do, who would analyze the data? The US intelligence agencies dont even have enough personnel to go through the hundreds of thousands of hours of video footage from the wars in Iraq+Afghanistan they have taken with Unmanned Aerial Vehicles. This does not include confiscated data or intercepted phone calls.

sataris
August 26th, 2010, 09:22 PM
Did i mention i <3 you kiwi?

Zorgoth
August 26th, 2010, 09:53 PM
That source is OK

Its the original EFF and their ummm odd interpretation of the intention of the application.

That data about you is stored somewhere. I would never trust a company that kept that kind of data about me on their own servers just to use a phone, and if the data is on the phone itself, then, well, somewhere on your phone is a complete profile of you. Even if that profile is encrypted, then unless the iPhone is in fact completely immune to theft or jailbreaking, a thief could jailbreak it and obtain root access, and somewhere at some point the phone would have to be storing your data unencrypted so that it can compare it to the data it is trying to gather. If this service fails, someone could figure out a lot about you potentially. Particularly considering this charming claim:



The method of claim 1, wherein gathering further comprises gathering one or more of screenshots, keylogs, communications packets served to the electronic device, and information related to a host device coupled to the electronic device.


So if someone managed to break through this security layer after stealing your phone (I'm sure someone will find a way around it very quickly), they might have access not only to your image and voice, but also to screenshots, keylogs, and information packets sent to and from your phone. Those could well include passwords and/or sensitive information.

KiwiNZ
August 26th, 2010, 10:02 PM
That data about you is stored somewhere. I would never trust a company that kept that kind of data about me on their own servers just to use a phone, and if the data is on the phone itself, then, well, somewhere on your phone is a complete profile of you. Even if that profile is encrypted, then unless the iPhone is in fact completely immune to theft or jailbreaking, a thief could jailbreak it and obtain root access, and somewhere at some point the phone would have to be storing your data unencrypted so that it can compare it to the data it is trying to gather. If this service fails, someone could figure out a lot about you potentially. Particularly considering this charming claim:



So if someone managed to break through this security layer after stealing your phone (I'm sure someone will find a way around it very quickly), they might have access not only to your image and voice, but also to screenshots, keylogs, and information packets sent to and from your phone. Those could well include passwords and/or sensitive information.

Ever taken out Insurance
Purchased a Car ,House
Applied for a Job
Gone to School
Paid Taxes
Been born
Been in Hospital
Gone to a medical Centre
Credit card
Parking ticket
Drivers licence
etc etc etc

Unless you were born , raised and died in the jungle without ever touching civilisation then you are on at least one computer.

Do you really think that a company that Steve Jobs has put his life into building that he is going to deliberately take action that would destroy it ? that is simply not logical and so is the techno fear demonstrated in this thread. George Orwell was discredited years ago.

reyfer
August 26th, 2010, 10:18 PM
:facepalm:

I love how ppl hear OMG its legal, yet again look at what sony and microsoft do in regards to when someone mods a gaming console they manufacture. They neuter it by blocking it from the network.

So yes, it may be legal to do w/e you want with your phone, however, the software license allows them to take steps to mitigate damage to their infrastructure, network, et al.

If you can mod a phone, then you could theoretically place an OS like Backtrack 4 on it. If you can do that, you can hack networks, if you can do that, you can even go as far as selling unlocked Iphones with backtrack 4 on it, to script kiddie hackers. Now if you were Apple wouldnt you take steps to prevent people using your products maliciously AND profiting off your hardware?

I love the law advice on the internet. You'd think there were nothing but UCLA lawyers running around this joint.

As I have stated, Kiwi has stated, and many others in this thread have stated, The article is wrong regarding them able to see and record EVERYTHING you do, That is fud and anti-everything Zealotry at its finest. If you believe that article, you just got RMS'd.

But since you're quoting, I'll even make it easy to dispute your statements since instead of reading mine, you picked one point, combined it with an article that is unreliable at best, and posted it.Sorry Sataris, but my post was in response to a SPECIFIC part of your post that says :

You can jailbreak, and they can brick your stuff for doing so.
Now please tell me if what I say REGARDING THAT STATEMENT BY YOU, is wrong.

By the way, with all these locking and jailbreaking and stuff, I'm glad that A) I don't own an iPhone and B) I don't live in a country that recognizes software patents. Copyrights? yes, as it should be

AlphaMack
August 26th, 2010, 10:21 PM
I don't understand the hoopla over this because Apple made their intentions very clear with their marketing and behavior with iOS and the devices they run on. Every aspect of your experience with iOS is controlled by Apple and you play by their rules. You use the apps they approve of and you use your device in the ways they approve of.

If you don't want to submit to such control, you vote with your wallet and go out and buy a device with an unlocked bootloader running an OS which gives you control.

It doesn't get any more granular than that.

Zorgoth
August 26th, 2010, 10:28 PM
Apart from a parking ticket, all of those things are a lot more important than an iPhone, and unlike Apple, in all those cases those people have a good reason to gather this information, and are storing it in at least a possibly secure way. An iPhone is just not worth that much, and with the iPhone the data is stored on the phone itself, which is not remotely secure because you are carrying it around all the time. And the reason that I wouldn't want that data on Apple's servers isn't really because I think they would use it against me - it is because on principle I think that sensitive information about a person should be stored only by people who have a valid reason to store it. I'm sorry, but a phone worth a few hundred dollars doesn't qualify in my book.

And if you read my post, you would note that I did not actually imply that Apple itself was what I would be most afraid of. What I would be most afraid of is someone else breaking into the phone and extracting all that data.

And your car doesn't have cameras in it to make sure you own it...

EDIT: And none of those services will gather random screenshots or keylogs of you by the way.

Grenage
August 26th, 2010, 10:55 PM
What I would be most afraid of is someone else breaking into the phone and extracting all that data.

So the potential to use the technology to secure the phone if stolen, doesn't apply?

alexfish
August 26th, 2010, 11:31 PM
can't see how it could be patented

to summarise a technology called electronic tagging already exists

such technology in the public domain is an infringement of human rights

across borders it amounts to spying

in boarders it amounts to treason.

Zorgoth
August 27th, 2010, 01:43 AM
So the potential to use the technology to secure the phone if stolen, doesn't apply?

If I had really important personal data on a smartphone, I would encrypt it. If I couldn't encrypt it, I wouldn't buy it if I was going to use it for anything like that. If I bought an unencrypted smartphone I wouldn't let any data on it that I couldn't afford to lose.

That is the one and only way to protect your data from theft. My laptop isn't encrypted because I don't expect to lose it. A smartphone I wouldn't trust myself with. Also, someone stealing your iPhone without this feature has no real chance of getting access to anything that you didn't store on the phone yourself, and even if you have saved passwords, those are presumably encrypted with your account password. If the software is taking random keylogs and screenshots though, it might well reveal data Ι would never intentionally save to the phone - if it has photographs it might well reveal exactly where I live, etc.

Dr. C
August 27th, 2010, 03:24 AM
Ever taken out Insurance
Purchased a Car ,House
Applied for a Job
Gone to School
Paid Taxes
Been born
Been in Hospital
Gone to a medical Centre
Credit card
Parking ticket
Drivers licence
etc etc etc

In all of these cases there are strict privacy laws and regulations that protect against the abuse of the data. This is not the case with Apple


Unless you were born , raised and died in the jungle without ever touching civilisation then you are on at least one computer.

What is relevant here is the checks and balances on data security and privacy. Whether the data is stored on a computer or in a filing cabinet is not the real issue.


Do you really think that a company that Steve Jobs has put his life into building that he is going to deliberately take action that would destroy it ? that is simply not logical and so is the techno fear demonstrated in this thread. George Orwell was discredited years ago.

Apple is a publicly traded company that is governed by the need to make a profit, that does not necessarily translate into protecting the privacy of their customers. As for George Orwell he is becoming all the more relevant each day precisely because of companies like Apple.

shzln
August 27th, 2010, 04:28 AM
Surely they won't get this patent, this is a clear invasion of privacy.
Imagine what someone could do with this kind of information if someone got into Apple's servers.


Even if the patent gets rejected, it doesn't mean they wont go through with this, it just means that the they won't have intellectual property coverage doing so.

Khakilang
August 27th, 2010, 04:48 AM
Back to the old fashion of dial up and speak handphone no worry about being spy at.

Oxwivi
August 27th, 2010, 07:25 AM
Dial-up? They'll use a modem router. And they still eavesdrop on telephone lines too...

alexfish
August 28th, 2010, 03:01 AM
Back to the old fashion of dial up and speak handphone no worry about being spy at.

That's why two tin cans are better than an iPhone

Oxwivi
August 28th, 2010, 06:52 AM
that's why two tin cans are better than an iphone
+1! :d

Ctrl-Alt-F1
August 28th, 2010, 07:18 AM
Back to the old fashion of dial up and speak handphone no worry about being spy at.

Uh landlines can be spied on also. Not as easily by third parties, but then we're not really talking about third parties here are we?

Oxwivi
August 28th, 2010, 07:35 AM
We are discussing privacy though.

alexfish
August 28th, 2010, 10:49 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~EDIT~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you don't want to submit to such control, you vote with your wallet and go out and buy a device with an unlocked bootloader running an OS which gives you control.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It doesn't get any more granular than that.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I think that's a wrap

Oxwivi
August 28th, 2010, 11:21 AM
Nope, it could come to a situation where all phones having tracking softwares of varying degrees.

alexfish
August 28th, 2010, 12:42 PM
Nope, it could come to a situation where all phones having tracking softwares of varying degrees.

Therefore , use the tin can phone

they will soon go out of business

PS: I own all rights to the tin can phone : but will not restrict its use . Feel Free.
Another benefit : Lower Carbon Footprint

Oxwivi
August 28th, 2010, 12:48 PM
Therefore , use the tin can phone

they will soon go out of business

PS: I own all rights to the tin can phone : but will not restrict its use . Feel Free.
Another benefit : Lower Carbon Footprint
Yes, I +1ed that recommendation before.

A version of FOSS license for physical objects? I'd want to know if one already exists out there.

Error: Unknown
August 28th, 2010, 01:54 PM
Yes, I +1ed that recommendation before.

A version of FOSS license for physical objects? I'd want to know if one already exists out there.
I've seen an open source car and motorcycle and I'm sure we all have heard of OpenCola...but I digress from Original Topic

Oxwivi
August 28th, 2010, 02:03 PM
You get the license to modify the things however you want? Cool... The there should be open source hardware too!

Error: Unknown
August 28th, 2010, 02:07 PM
I looked the motor cycle is no longer Open :( The car is, though. http://www.theoscarproject.org/

Oxwivi
August 28th, 2010, 03:35 PM
I looked the motor cycle is no longer Open :( The car is, though. http://www.theoscarproject.org/
Ooh, I want it. Who can manufacture it for me?

Naiki Muliaina
August 28th, 2010, 03:46 PM
Arf! That article gave a good LOL. Its written by a bigger troll than me...

Should have know it from the first line -


It looks like Apple, Inc., is exploring a new business opportunity: spyware and what we're calling "traitorware."

LuL's ^^ On a thread related note... Grenage...



I've found more grounded, founded information on bubblegum wrappers - seriously

I am taking this line with or without your consent for later use. Good stuff! :popcorn:

Grenage
August 28th, 2010, 05:54 PM
I am taking this line with or without your consent for later use. Good stuff! :popcorn:

Lol, it's all BSD licensed. :)

inoh
September 19th, 2010, 04:14 PM
The article is errant reffering to "your iPhone"; legally they are Apple's, not yours. Proprietary Hardware


Likely a bit late to point this out but:
This is a rightfully false statement. Library of Congress/US Spreme Court recently ruled that once you purchase the hardware, it is your hardware to do as you please. Ex. you can now legally jailbreak, root, and\or tether and cellphone you legally purchased w/o legal consequence. The carrier does still reserve the right to refuse you service.

pwnst*r
September 19th, 2010, 04:34 PM
Likely a bit late to point this out but:
This is a rightfully false statement. Library of Congress/US Spreme Court recently ruled that once you purchase the hardware, it is your hardware to do as you please. Ex. you can now legally jailbreak, root, and\or tether and cellphone you legally purchased w/o legal consequence. The carrier does still reserve the right to refuse you service.

But if you're not anti-Apple you're not coooooool!

Dr. C
September 19th, 2010, 04:48 PM
Likely a bit late to point this out but:
This is a rightfully false statement. Library of Congress/US Spreme Court recently ruled that once you purchase the hardware, it is your hardware to do as you please. Ex. you can now legally jailbreak, root, and\or tether and cellphone you legally purchased w/o legal consequence. The carrier does still reserve the right to refuse you service.

Very true in the US, thanks to the efforts of organizations such as the EFF, and not for a lack of trying on the part of Apple to retain effective control and ownership.