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View Full Version : Do you think the netbook is dead?



Madspyman
August 21st, 2010, 06:13 PM
Tablets seem like the next gen of mobile computing, and as smart phones become more popular eventually the line between smartphone and tablet is becoming blurred. So with the future of the mobile web seemingly in the hands of phone companies are traditional netbooks really a necessary option.

I ask because Ubuntu (even the desktop edition) seems to be gearing itself more towards a netbook mentality. Problem is buying a netbook lately with anything but Windows on it is becoming more and more difficult.

Stores like Best Buy, and Office Depot, don't have any Linux based netbooks in store (or online), and Linux friendly OEM's who do offer Ubuntu netbook options, such as Dell, seem to be treating Linux like a yo-yo, far away on the string when Microsoft intervenes, but than at a close distance when confronted by members of the Linux community.

Also there's the problem of Android, manufactures love putting Google's name on things, but Android is geared more towards a tablet than a netbook, and with sales of iPad gradually outdoing netbook sales, I assume manufactures will have little trouble justifying dropping netbook options in favor of Google based tablets.

I like that Maverick is adding multitouch options, and hope to see a future for Ubuntu on the tablet, but with Google options, Dell and LG getting into the Android smartphone/tablet business, and HP possibly webOS-ing it, I fail to see where there would be any demand for Ubuntu as a tablet OS, outside of Canonical possibly releasing their own Ubuntu based tablet.

I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers when I say this but I think the netbook is either dying or already dead (at least here in the US) and any hopes of a profitable Ubuntu based netbook strategy for Canonical may be as well.

mendhak
August 21st, 2010, 06:21 PM
I don't think the netbook is dead, I think a lot of it is marketing hype and media frenzy.

KegHead
August 21st, 2010, 06:22 PM
No!

I use mine every day.

KegHead

bunburya
August 21st, 2010, 06:24 PM
Just wondering... where does the laptop fit into this discussion? Are you using netbook and laptop interchangeably, or do you think the laptop is already dead, or in a different class altogether so not really relevant.

I ask because in Ireland, laptops still seem to be the big thing, in my experience very few people have taken to using netbooks and I haven't seen any tablets around at all.

Primefalcon
August 21st, 2010, 06:26 PM
I'm using Ubuntu on a netbook, I'm sorry but no tablet I've seen yet would convince me to dump the netbook.

Madspyman
August 21st, 2010, 06:27 PM
Just wondering... where does the laptop fit into this discussion? Are you using netbook and laptop interchangeably, or do you think the laptop is already dead, or in a different class altogether so not really relevant.

I ask because in Ireland, laptops still seem to be the big thing, in my experience very few people have taken to using netbooks and I haven't seen any tablets around at all.

Laptops are a different thing, I don't think they're on the way out anytime soon, I just think that netbooks, because they are geared specifically at doing the same things smartphones are now capable of, are slowly becoming redundant.

Primefalcon
August 21st, 2010, 06:31 PM
I like the full flexible mini computer (netbook I am using has the full 160gig mechanical drive) that I can carry around that has a lot better battery life than the notebook.

also makes a nice companion to my digital camera so I don't have to buy a lot of memory sticks, also nice for video too

Dixon Bainbridge
August 21st, 2010, 06:32 PM
I don't think the netbook is dead, I think a lot of it is marketing hype and media frenzy.

Yep. I'll never use a tablet. Notebook all the way, all the time.

Opinions eh? Where would we be without them.

andras artois
August 21st, 2010, 06:45 PM
No way. A lot more people are using a netbook over a laptop because of how small, portable and cheap they are.

Tablets will get a lot more popular, possibly more so than netbooks because of them being more of a 'statement' rather than people buying what would suit their needs best. Netbooks will still live on and plenty of people will still use them.

KiwiNZ
August 21st, 2010, 06:49 PM
Dead no

Big seller no

They will continue as an option as a cheap low end mobile device as they were intended.Their sales volume will be much lower and at a more realistic level.

pwnst*r
August 21st, 2010, 06:53 PM
Netbooks are rubbish. Ultra portables is what should be concentrated on.

In regards to tablets. Lol. No power user uses any of the current gen ones and gets the same usage out of it as their laptop/desktop.

98cwitr
August 21st, 2010, 06:56 PM
nope, they definitely have there uses, I am thinking about getting one :)

Madspyman
August 21st, 2010, 06:56 PM
Netbooks are rubbish. Ultra portables is what should be concentrated on.

In regards to tablets. Lol. No power user uses any of the current gen ones and gets the same usage out of it as their laptop/desktop.

I don't think tablets are aimed at powers users, nor do I think netbooks are either. I don't think power users have a need for them anyway.

pwnst*r
August 21st, 2010, 07:00 PM
I don't think tablets are aimed at powers users, nor do I think netbooks are either. I don't think power users have a need for them anyway.

I never said they were, but I know a few nerds that have them then get frustrated for not being able to do X on them.

KiwiNZ
August 21st, 2010, 07:03 PM
I never said they were, but I know a few nerds that have them then get frustrated for not being able to do X on them.

Their fault for buying the wrong tool for the job.

Madspyman
August 21st, 2010, 07:05 PM
I never said they were, but I know a few nerds that have them then get frustrated for not being able to do X on them.

Yeah I don't actually know anyone who owns a netbook, and the few people I know who are considering them are really wanting a laptop at a netbook price.

slackthumbz
August 21st, 2010, 07:10 PM
I have yet to see a tablet or smartphone that can match the 250GB hard drive and peripheral support available to my netbook.

</thread>

corrytonapple
August 21st, 2010, 07:10 PM
Netbooks will live on. Tablets have way to many issues with Flash and Keyboard and stuff to work out.

KiwiNZ
August 21st, 2010, 07:11 PM
Yeah I don't actually know anyone who owns a netbook, and the few people I know who are considering them really want a laptop at a netbook price.

I know four with Netbooks , one loves it ,two would put them under a truck in an instant and one is neutral.

I don't have one.

I have a MacbookPro and an iPad for mobile computing. The former for full computing, especially with my DSLR the later if I am travelling and know I will only need email and the web.

pwnst*r
August 21st, 2010, 07:12 PM
Their fault for buying the wrong tool for the job.

Well, no kidding.



Netbooks will live on. Tables have way to many issues with Flash and Keyboard and stuff to work out.

Only the iPad has an issue with flash.

KiwiNZ
August 21st, 2010, 07:20 PM
Well, no kidding.




Only the iPad has an issue with flash.

No, Flash has too many issues with everything

DoktorSeven
August 21st, 2010, 07:25 PM
They can take my netbook when they pry it from my cold, dead hands.

Not interested in the least in some tablet with no reliable input methods.

regeya
August 21st, 2010, 07:29 PM
Yeah I don't actually know anyone who owns a netbook, and the few people I know who are considering them are really wanting a laptop at a netbook price.

I have a netbook and am running Ubuntu on it. Aside from having an unsupported card reader, and having it occasionally "wig out" and hibernate when I put it under a load while on battery, it does precisely what I want. Well, I wouldn't use the thing to edit photos on, but that's what I have a desktop with a 1080p monitor for. ;-) I can't play modern games on it, but that's what the desktop machine and a console are for.

I've had people who own laptops look at it with a combination of dismissiveness and jealousy; dismissiveness because it's so small, but jealousy because its small size means it's very portable. It may not be something I could use as a desktop replacement, but that's not what I bought it for; I bought it for something that had long battery life and that I could put under my arm, take to the bathroom, and fire up Calibre to read some Samuel Clemens if I wanted (and I've done that.) I wanted to be able to take it into McDonald's and ssh into a work machine if I wanted. I can do all those things so I consider it a success.

As for the iPad...bah, a totally closed platform with a touchscreen and gimmicky accelerometer support, for double the money I spent on a netbook. Big whoop. Did desktop-replacement laptops kill the desktop computer?

KiwiNZ
August 21st, 2010, 07:31 PM
They can take my netbook when they pry it from my cold, dead hands.

Not interested in the least in some tablet with no reliable input methods.

no reliable input methods?

don't get that , my iPad input methods are very reliable, Keyboard, screen keyboard, touch screen,
me all reliable.Haven't failed once.

regeya
August 21st, 2010, 07:31 PM
No, Flash has too many issues with everything

Amen. The battery on my Aspire One has its battery life cut in half if I'm surfing the web, and that's due largely to Flash. If I have Flash enabled on the thing, the fans kick on after a couple of minutes and it can double as a space heater.

DoktorSeven
August 21st, 2010, 07:34 PM
no reliable input methods?

don't get that , my iPad input methods are very reliable, Keyboard, screen keyboard, touch screen,
me all reliable.Haven't failed once.

I should have said not reliable for me. I can't stand touch-sensitive technologies, they just aren't reliable for me. I need a real keyboard with actual tactile feedback. It's much more reliable and feels better to me.

pwnst*r
August 21st, 2010, 07:34 PM
No, Flash has too many issues with everything

Actually it doesn't but okay. Flash is awesome on my Evo.

PhilGil
August 21st, 2010, 07:38 PM
Consumers will buy devices that fit their needs and budget. I prefer a netbook as it's more of an all-purpose device than a tablet. I also like not having greasy fingerprints all over my screen (I can't understand how people with touchscreens can tolerate it).

I would like to see more devices like the Asus T91 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mvtU4xZPvQ), which seems to combine the best of both worlds: a touch-sensitive screen and a full keyboard/touchpad.

juancarlospaco
August 21st, 2010, 07:40 PM
If netbook is die, give it to me, i will do necromancy...

cariboo
August 21st, 2010, 07:44 PM
I think smartphones and tablets are overblown, I know more people that don't own or use a cell phone, than I do people that own smartphones, I also know more people that use netbooks, than use smartphones. I've never even seen a tablet, other than on the web or television.

MethodOne
August 21st, 2010, 07:51 PM
I use the right hardware for the job. I use my desktop to do all my heavy work. If I want something portable, want to check something quick, and there is a wireless access point, I use my netbook. I use my smartphone if I am away from a wireless access point.

KiwiNZ
August 21st, 2010, 07:54 PM
Consumers will buy devices that fit their needs and budget. I prefer a netbook as it's more of an all-purpose device than a tablet. I also like not having greasy fingerprints all over my screen (I can't understand how people with touchscreens can tolerate it).

I would like to see more devices like the Asus T91 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mvtU4xZPvQ), which seems to combine the best of both worlds: a touch-sensitive screen and a full keyboard/touchpad.

I thought similar about the finger prints. We purchased one for our son well before I got mine and I got a change to test drive. You really dont see them when its on due to the screen light and due to the resistant technology it takes a long time for any to build up on the screen.

As for the Asus alternative , they are heavy , you can just add a keyboard as I have to the iPad when you want a traditional Keyboard

MooPi
August 21st, 2010, 08:31 PM
For me the netbook is past history. I'm using my Android table right now and I much prefer it to the netbook. Easier to carry and some added features that Android brings to the device. The netbook will gather dust.

PhilGil
August 21st, 2010, 09:08 PM
I thought similar about the finger prints. We purchased one for our son well before I got mine and I got a change to test drive. You really dont see them when its on due to the screen light and due to the resistant technology it takes a long time for any to build up on the screen.

I think my issue is a bit more neurotic/OCD than whether I can see the prints with the display on. I was helping my boss set up his one-day-old iPad and I really, really wanted to wipe the screen before I touched it.


As for the Asus alternative , they are heavy , you can just add a keyboard as I have to the iPad when you want a traditional Keyboard
I see where you're coming from, but I do think there's room in the marketplace for both. With the current state of technology the iPad and the Asus are really two different classes of technology: one is a scaled-up PDA with a supplemental keyboard, the other a scaled-down laptop with a supplemental touch screen. There are advantages and disadvantages to both, and consumers will still choose the device that best fits their needs.

corrytonapple
August 21st, 2010, 09:14 PM
No, Flash has too many issues with everything
On desktops, laptops, everything.

V for Vincent
August 21st, 2010, 09:55 PM
Don't think so. Netbooks really do fill a niche. Tablets might do so, too, but time will tell. For now, it's just Apple hogging attention.

ELD
August 21st, 2010, 09:55 PM
I used to have one and it came in real handy, think they are brilliant for the cost concered.

I had a 10" but thinking about getting a 13" one just because they are so useful.

ronnielsen1
August 21st, 2010, 10:01 PM
Do you think the netbook is dead?

Did they really even start? Yes, they sold a lot of them but I doubted they sold what they expected. I'd just as soon have a more powerful laptop

cptrohn
August 21st, 2010, 10:05 PM
I LOVE my netbook!!!!! NOOOOOO lol

But seriously I do love having the netbook here when I need more power than my smartphone and don't want to drag out the 15" laptop the netbook is awesome for me and fits my needs... Now as for not being able to buy a linux netbook, I bought the Zotac SAM 102 at newegg for right around $150... I did have my 500gb HD from another laptop that I sold and a spare 2GB memory stick but it runs both Ubuntu and Kubuntu netbook editions great and everything works out of the box... MSI and OCZ also both sell DIY barebones netbooks as well... I think I saw them all for sale at directron.com Newegg just had the Zotacs and the OCZ's last time I looked.

JDShu
August 22nd, 2010, 01:57 AM
My prediction is that tablets will beat netbooks in terms of popularity. Right now, tablets (read: iPad) seem to kill netbooks in terms of battery life, partly because they use ARM chips.

afroman10496
August 22nd, 2010, 02:06 AM
That's what apple wants people to think...

Legendary_Bibo
August 22nd, 2010, 03:32 AM
I'm actually looking for a netbook for school. Tablets are cool, but no matter how you spin it, they just aren't as conveniently functional as netbooks. Sure they're cool for browsing the web more comfortably and whatnot, but what if I need something for typing up papers? I have a 17" laptop, and isn't exactly portable. A tablet has a touch screen keyboard, which means you won't know what keys you're hitting unless you look at it all the time. You can attach a keyboard to it, but then it's just like a netbook with a touchscreen. :confused:

I'm probably going to get this (http://zareason.com/shop/product.php?productid=16250&cat=250&page=1)

Austin25
August 22nd, 2010, 04:01 AM
Well, netbooks were expected to take both of the advantages of smartphones and laptops, but instead got all of their weaknesses. They are too big for your pocket, yet not powerful enough due to their size.

Austin25
August 22nd, 2010, 04:12 AM
I'm actually looking for a netbook for school. Tablets are cool, but no matter how you spin it, they just aren't as conveniently functional as netbooks. Sure they're cool for browsing the web more comfortably and whatnot, but what if I need something for typing up papers? I have a 17" laptop, and isn't exactly portable. A tablet has a touch screen keyboard, which means you won't know what keys you're hitting unless you look at it all the time. You can attach a keyboard to it, but then it's just like a netbook with a touchscreen. :confused:

I'm probably going to get this (http://zareason.com/shop/product.php?productid=16250&cat=250&page=1)
Well, you know there are tablets with keyboards, too? In fact, I'm using one right now. It's an HP tx2-1275dx.

Hyper Tails
August 22nd, 2010, 04:13 AM
Doubt it

Plumtreed
August 22nd, 2010, 05:18 AM
You will know netbooks are dead when retailers start dumping them at very cheap prices!

Not happening around here.:confused:

pwnst*r
August 22nd, 2010, 06:43 AM
I think smartphones and tablets are overblown, I know more people that don't own or use a cell phone, than I do people that own smartphones, I also know more people that use netbooks, than use smartphones. I've never even seen a tablet, other than on the web or television.

Erm, the mobile industry is the fastest growing industry right now. Overblown? Lol.



Well, you know there are tablets with keyboards, too? In fact, I'm using one right now. It's an HP tx2-1275dx.

Indeed. I'm extremely happy with my Lenovo X200 tablet.

beew
August 22nd, 2010, 07:04 AM
Well I don't know if netbook is dead but I wouldn't waste my money on one. What can you do with it really? The screen and keyboard are too small, not enough ram, can't do much. Tablets and smartphones are more status symbols than real useful tools. I mean, do you really need to be constantly connected to the internet??? Maybe soon they will have implants to put wifi receptors in your head.

Ctrl-Alt-F1
August 22nd, 2010, 07:13 AM
I mean, do you really need to be constantly connected to the internet??? Maybe soon they will have implants to put wifi receptors in your head.
For some in the IT industry...yes.

beew
August 22nd, 2010, 07:21 AM
Well I don't think the smartphpne market primarily consists of people who work in the IT industry or it would have collapsed long time ago. Indeed most people I know who own smartphones are practically computer illiterate.

toupeiro
August 22nd, 2010, 07:29 AM
As long as the leading tablets are non-flash compatible, non-expandable devices with corporate filters and limits set everywhere you look, the netbook, which is void of all of these, will have a future. As a recent article on slashdot (http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=10/08/21/1550241) noted, which I fundamentally agree with, the iPhone and iPad are "deliberate devolutions of solutions that work."

Dinahalye
August 22nd, 2010, 07:44 AM
i love netbook!!!!!!!!!):P

formaldehyde_spoon
August 22nd, 2010, 08:09 AM
Tablets may be great for content consumption, but they're sorely lacking when it comes to content creation.

A tablet is just a netbook without it's keyboard anyway. When tablets have a better input method than a keyboard I'll stop using netbooks.


...

Indeed. I'm extremely happy with my Lenovo X200 tablet.

Not a tablet.


Well, you know there are tablets with keyboards, too? In fact, I'm using one right now. It's an HP tx2-1275dx.

Not a tablet.

I doesn't matter whether or not their respective manufacturers market them as ''tablets'', they aren't tablets. (and on a slightly different tangent, I wonder how you typed that post in Austin25: touchscreen keyboard or ''laptop mode''? ;) )
They're laptops (too big to be netbooks) with touch screens and swivel hinges, which I think are great additional features; but not tablets by any stretch of the imagination.

handy
August 22nd, 2010, 10:59 AM
I have no use for either Netbooks or tablets.

They will remain dead for me.

Legendary_Bibo
August 22nd, 2010, 11:18 AM
I have a job at my school this semester w00t!

And upon looking to see if there was an actual functional tablet, I came across the Archos tablets. I'm heavily considering getting the $200 Archos 7 because it has the android market. My friend showed me his Droid X, and that thing was freaking awesome.

I could save up for a more expensive tablet but I'll be wanting to put that money for either new games or a gf if I get one this semester.

lancest
August 22nd, 2010, 02:34 PM
My netbook has a 12.1" HD (LED) screen and 4 G of Ram.
64 bit Lucid. Came with no OS tax. AMD Neo.
Performs great for most everyday tasks.

My view about notebooks?
Still overpriced, many run too hot, often forced to pay Win tax.

Netbooks are very portable, fun and useful- just not ideal for some intensive tasks. Really appreciate netbooks on small surfaces. I hate big clunky notebooks.

SOHO desktop is for power.

Each has a real purpose.

I'm an admirer of those who do their work on Linux using Atom style CPU's.

arnab_das
August 22nd, 2010, 04:04 PM
the biggest advantage of a tablet is the touchscreen. we still are obsessed about it! :) also, the reason why netbook is a failure is maybe bcoz apple doesnt have one! let apple release a netbook next year, and then the world will go crazy and netbook will be the biggest thing

ssam
August 22nd, 2010, 04:31 PM
i find it useful to have a small laptop. 12inch screen seems the best compromise between portability and usability. i dont need much CPU power (i can ssh to a big computer for that). i do need a good battery life for long train journey's, places without power. and i need a keyboard.

i used to have a second hand thinkpad X31 (new X series thinkpads are pricey). now have an ideapad S12 which does the job well.

stmiller
August 22nd, 2010, 04:41 PM
I think the increase in popularity of the ~13 inch notebook with a modern dual core cpu is slowly taking away the netbook market.

Your choices used to be:

- Some huge clunky and heavy 15 incher

or

- A nice small 9-10" netbook


But now those lines are blurred with the ~13 inch category.

Zorgoth
August 22nd, 2010, 04:58 PM
I think that the iPad is a bit of a toy. My uncle has one, and don't get me wrong, playing games and surfing the web on the iPad is really fun, but besides checking/writing email, etc, it doesn't really have very good productivity tools, and those that do exist cost money because the iPad model basically precludes open source software for the iPad. Even open technologies like LaTeX cost money on the iPad, not to mention that iOS does NOT GIVE THE USER BASIC FILESYSTEM ACCESS. Android/Ubuntu devices might come closer to being able to become full productivity devices, but so far there are no really decent Android tablets in the 8+ inches range, which I think is probably necessary for a productivity device, even a mobile one. When they show up, as they should shortly, we will see - I suspect that a netbook would be "better" in the sense of being easier to use sitting down at a table, but a tablet would be more portable.

A netbook on the other hand is perfectly capable of running a good office suite, emacs, etc., with a lot more available screen space due to the keyboard and because a good netbook might have 1366x768 resolution while a tablet will generally have no more than 1024x768 (iPad resolution) - however the next generation of Android tablets should include soem hi-res models and I bet the next iPad will have higher resolution too.

On the other hand, a tablet is half the size and half the weight and generally wins on battery life. I think that really a netbook and a tablet are devices fulfilling different functions and neither will replace the other completely - however I bet tablets will be a bigger seller since it works fine for email and internet and has definitive advantages in that area, which is what most people buy a netbook for.

Now personally, this (http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/SYCTOProcess?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&LBomId=8198552921666157150&categoryId=8198552921644569398) is the "mobile computing" device I want (weighs 3 pounds :D).

aysiu
August 22nd, 2010, 05:10 PM
I think the problem here is that the majority of Ubuntu Forums users are not the netbook's target audience. If you use your computer for productivity and/or graphics-intensive gaming, then you obviously aren't supposed to use a netbook for that.

Most normal folks use a home (not work) computer for email, web browsing, looking at photos, and listening to music. All of this can easily be done on a netbook or an iPad (in the latter case, only if the web browsing doesn't involve Flash).

I'm not a normal person (the fact I use Linux already makes me geekier, even though I don't know how to program or how to compile a kernel), but a netbook suits my needs just fine. I don't think it makes sense to declare netbooks "dead" just because you personally have no need for one. I personally have no need for gaming, but I don't declare gaming dead. Plenty of people like gaming. I don't. Likewise, plenty of people find netbooks useful. Maybe you don't.

Cowchip7
August 22nd, 2010, 07:09 PM
Yeah I don't actually know anyone who owns a netbook, and the few people I know who are considering them are really wanting a laptop at a netbook price.

I have a netbook. I love the portability. Plus, I like having a keyboard. If I need to do a task that is heavy in word processing, it can be done. Tablets and smart phones cannot say the same.

Spice Weasel
August 22nd, 2010, 07:16 PM
I can't stand touch screens, and my fingers are constantly shaking when I have to move them quickly due to a disorder that I have. I need a keyboard in front of me.

Also, pounding my fingers on a piece of glass just feels uncomfortable. Especially for gaming, can't beat a mouse + keyboard there.

Madspyman
August 22nd, 2010, 08:14 PM
I think the problem here is that the majority of Ubuntu Forums users are not the netbook's target audience. If you use your computer for productivity and/or graphics-intensive gaming, then you obviously aren't supposed to use a netbook for that.

Most normal folks use a home (not work) computer for email, web browsing, looking at photos, and listening to music. All of this can easily be done on a netbook or an iPad (in the latter case, only if the web browsing doesn't involve Flash).

I'm not a normal person (the fact I use Linux already makes me geekier, even though I don't know how to program or how to compile a kernel), but a netbook suits my needs just fine. I don't think it makes sense to declare netbooks "dead" just because you personally have no need for one. I personally have no need for gaming, but I don't declare gaming dead. Plenty of people like gaming. I don't. Likewise, plenty of people find netbooks useful. Maybe you don't.

I said dying or dead, to me I think they're dead, If you don't think that, perhaps you could at least consider they're losing popularity as netbook sales are dropping.

Not to mention Ubuntu based netbooks are a rare find unless you know of Ubuntu, and are searching for a Ubuntu based netbook. I've never stumbled upon a netbook running any flavor Linux here in NY. They're all bloated Win 7 machines many with prices tied to AT&T or Verizon contracts. Sometimes the price of the netbook and it's limited purpose, justifies spending a bit extra for Laptop that does everything. Take this for example.

http://www.system76.com/product_info.php?cPath=28&products_id=105

After shipping it'd probably come to about $400, I've walked into Best Buy and for $50 extra, seen nicer Laptops.

The iPad is an interesting marketing phenom in that it's selling better than cheaper more fully featured netbook devices. Tablets are already killing netbook sales, and theres only like one crappy one available, soon PC manufactures will offer better cheaper alternatives to the iPad, furthur driving netbook sales into the coffin. IMO it's only a matter of time till the nails start getting hammered in.

aysiu
August 22nd, 2010, 08:31 PM
The iPad is an interesting marketing phenom in that it's selling better than cheaper more fully featured netbook devices. I can't even think of a single netbook that was marketed properly. The Linux netbooks of late 2007 and early 2008 were not marketed at all. And the Windows netbooks since then have been marketed in either a weak or confusing way. All of the advertisements I've seen for netbooks basically zoom in on them (making them just look like laptops) and then advertise some kind of promotional price if you sign up for a data plan with a mobile carrier. None of them actually try to explain what makes netbooks a good choice for a particular kind of consumer.

Take a look at Yahoo! Answers some time. Just about every day (or several times a day), someone asks what the difference is between a netbook and a laptop. A lot of folks, because netbooks are marketed poorly (or not at all) just think netbooks are cheaper laptops, so a lot of folks who buy it get disappointed because the screen is smaller, and they can't run Photoshop or some graphics-intensive game smoothly on it. Also, preinstalling Windows 7 with only 1 GB of RAM (which most new netbooks come with) is doing netbooks no favors. Intel Atom processors are sluggish enough. Add Windows 7 with only 1 GB of RAM, and the sluggishness will only appear worse.

I've heard a lot of people complain about the small screens on netbooks, but I've heard very few people complain about the small screens on iPads. Both are 10". Making quality products helps, but I think a lot of Ubuntu Forums folks tend to underestimate just how powerful marketing is. We do not live in a meritocracy.

TriBlox6432
August 22nd, 2010, 08:45 PM
I use my netbook for all my high school work. All of it.

The netbook will not be dead for at least 3 more years when I'm out of high school and buy something better for Uni (probably a MBP or Sys76 PanP)

Rahbee Kannuhn
August 22nd, 2010, 08:46 PM
Tablets are cool, but I still prefer a hardware keyboard.
I have the Motorola Backflip for my phone, not because its the greatest Android phone, far from it actually, but it gets my job done and lets me have a real keyboard. I think that it is likely there will be a market for hardware keyboards in devices for some time to come, or at least I hope so. Touch screens are awesome, but for me they have their place; in my case, they are great for an interface enhancement, but not for typing. I have a Dell Mini9, its been an excellent on-the-go computer for me. Fits in my messenger bag, doesn't weigh much, and has all the power to get things I need done, even a little light gimp work if I feel like it.

avaralom
August 22nd, 2010, 09:00 PM
I love my netbook. Obviously, it's not a desktop or even a laptop (though the laptop I had for college was never that great to begin with). I use it for surfing the internet and writing in bed, outside or anywhere different. But then again, that's what I wanted. A smaller, more portable laptop.

I imagine they won't be around forever, as soon as these tablets start taking off, you'll be able to have larger screens and still keep the weight factor in there. But I personally hate the small touchscreens and am much more comfortable with a keyboard. Until they improve them, I suppose. :)

Madspyman
August 22nd, 2010, 09:00 PM
I can't even think of a single netbook that was marketed properly. The Linux netbooks of late 2007 and early 2008 were not marketed at all. And the Windows netbooks since then have been marketed in either a weak or confusing way. All of the advertisements I've seen for netbooks basically zoom in on them (making them just look like laptops) and then advertise some kind of promotional price if you sign up for a data plan with a mobile carrier. None of them actually try to explain what makes netbooks a good choice for a particular kind of consumer.

Take a look at Yahoo! Answers some time. Just about every day (or several times a day), someone asks what the difference is between a netbook and a laptop. A lot of folks, because netbooks are marketed poorly (or not at all) just think netbooks are cheaper laptops, so a lot of folks who buy it get disappointed because the screen is smaller, and they can't run Photoshop or some graphics-intensive game smoothly on it. Also, preinstalling Windows 7 with only 1 GB of RAM (which most new netbooks come with) is doing netbooks no favors. Intel Atom processors are sluggish enough. Add Windows 7 with only 1 GB of RAM, and the sluggishness will only appear worse.

I've heard a lot of people complain about the small screens on netbooks, but I've heard very few people complain about the small screens on iPads. Both are 10". Making quality products helps, but I think a lot of Ubuntu Forums folks tend to underestimate just how powerful marketing is. We do not live in a meritocracy.

Marketing is key, but the OEM's won't give Linux netbooks the time of day when comes to it, especially if they're not giving Win netbooks decent press.

Everybody's probably seen one of these ads on TV, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxTn0dvBkxU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxTn0dvBkxU)

But this ad got canned before it even had a chance, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvzcEHT0trU

OEM's love for the netbook is fading, and as for the Linux netbook, they hardly ever had any.

KiwiNZ
August 22nd, 2010, 09:04 PM
I can't even think of a single netbook that was marketed properly. The Linux netbooks of late 2007 and early 2008 were not marketed at all. And the Windows netbooks since then have been marketed in either a weak or confusing way. All of the advertisements I've seen for netbooks basically zoom in on them (making them just look like laptops) and then advertise some kind of promotional price if you sign up for a data plan with a mobile carrier. None of them actually try to explain what makes netbooks a good choice for a particular kind of consumer.

Take a look at Yahoo! Answers some time. Just about every day (or several times a day), someone asks what the difference is between a netbook and a laptop. A lot of folks, because netbooks are marketed poorly (or not at all) just think netbooks are cheaper laptops, so a lot of folks who buy it get disappointed because the screen is smaller, and they can't run Photoshop or some graphics-intensive game smoothly on it. Also, preinstalling Windows 7 with only 1 GB of RAM (which most new netbooks come with) is doing netbooks no favors. Intel Atom processors are sluggish enough. Add Windows 7 with only 1 GB of RAM, and the sluggishness will only appear worse.

I've heard a lot of people complain about the small screens on netbooks, but I've heard very few people complain about the small screens on iPads. Both are 10". Making quality products helps, but I think a lot of Ubuntu Forums folks tend to underestimate just how powerful marketing is. We do not live in a meritocracy.

Not sure if it were mis marketing but more misunderstanding of the role of the Netbook by the Consumer. The iPad has suffered from the same misunderstanding, trying to use it for purposes for which they were never intended.

spupy
August 22nd, 2010, 09:05 PM
I think the title should be instead "Do you think the netbook is dead for you?"
It's not like I'm cowering in fear while reading this thread on my netbook, wondering if some day the news will announce that "the netbook is dead" and some Apple police will storm my house, take my netbook and make me buy a table at gunpoint.


also, the reason why netbook is a failure is maybe bcoz apple doesnt have one! let apple release a netbook next year, and then the world will go crazy and netbook will be the biggest thing
They do have a netbook - it's called the MacBook Air...


My netbook has a 12.1" HD (LED) screen and 4 G of Ram.
64 bit Lucid. Came with no OS tax. AMD Neo.
Performs great for most everyday tasks.

My view about notebooks?
Still overpriced, many run too hot, often forced to pay Win tax.

Netbooks are very portable, fun and useful- just not ideal for some intensive tasks. Really appreciate netbooks on small surfaces. I hate big clunky notebooks.

SOHO desktop is for power.

Each has a real purpose.

I'm an admirer of those who do their work on Linux using Atom style CPU's.

I think pretty much the same way. Although I do some light programming on mine while I'm away from my desktop machine. The only problem so far is the RAM that I ha
ven't upgraded yet (only 1G). For 3 years I did all my work on a laptop that is less powerfull than my current netbook. If I wasn't spoiled by a desktop machine I would have no problem using only a netbook (with external monitor, keyboard and mouse, of course).


I just think that netbooks, because they are geared specifically at doing the same things smartphones are now capable of, are slowly becoming redundant.

Yeah... no. Like what? However you spin it, it is still a damn small phone and there is no serious work you can do on the thing, no matter how many apps there are. You can some lite gaming and that's cool, though.

I do think however that tables are the "threat"(this word I don't find particularly well-suited, however) to netbooks. I'm talking about tablets tablets, like the iPad, not the laptop tables you guys are talking about. I see them as clunky, hard to use, and not that much tablet-y. The iPad is portable, long-lasting battery life and you can do more serious work with it (both as in serious-er and as in quantitatively more (stupid english lol:))) and you can have better fun than with a smartphone.

Posted from my netbook.

lancest
August 23rd, 2010, 12:58 AM
A netbook should play HD video smoothly, start & power spreadsheets, browsers well. Big deal huh?

Beyond that I could care less.

Pre 2003 I had pc's that could not play music smoothly while multitasking.

PaulReaver
August 23rd, 2010, 01:09 AM
no way. Apple seems to be talking a big game right now but the ipad has only sold just over 3.5 million..

compare 3.5 million to the 25 million netbooks sold just last year and apple's rhetoric looks rather pathetic...

Steve jobs, not cool, old dude in a polo neck... nuff said

Merk42
August 23rd, 2010, 03:30 AM
no way. Apple seems to be talking a big game right now but the ipad has only sold just over 3.5 million..

compare 3.5 million to the 25 million netbooks sold just last year and apple's rhetoric looks rather pathetic...

Steve jobs, not cool, old dude in a polo neck... nuff said

So you're going to compare the sales of a single product that's only been out for 4months versus an entire year of sales for a product that has existed for years prior?

formaldehyde_spoon
August 23rd, 2010, 03:43 AM
My netbook has a 12.1'' HD (LED) screen and 4 G of Ram.
64 bit Lucid. Came with no OS tax. AMD Neo.
Performs great for most everyday tasks.

...

12'' is not a netbook.
10'' is a LARGE netbook.


... They do have a netbook - it's called the MacBook Air...

...

At 13+''? Not a netbook.
Apple know perfectly well that releasing a netbook would eat into more profitable Macbook Air sales, hence the iPad - their (successful) competitor for netbooks.
Apple-philes are much more likely to buy both an Air and iPad, than Air and a(n Apple) netbook.


...
Take this for example.

http://www.system76.com/product_info.php?cPath=28&products_id=105

After shipping it'd probably come to about $400, I've walked into Best Buy and for $50 extra, seen nicer Laptops.

...

But the whole point of a netbook is it's ultra-portability, and (hopefully) long battery life and cheap price (although manufacturers don't always get those two right).
A $450 laptop might be ''nicer'' but completely misses the point of buying a netbook.

lancest
August 23rd, 2010, 05:27 AM
Amazon calls my 12.1" a netbook
I have to concur.

MSI U230-040US 12.1-Inch Netbook - 4 Hour Battery Life (http://www.amazon.com/MSI-U230-040US-12-1-Inch-Netbook-Battery/dp/B0036OR9BK)

About netbook sales dropping.
Saturation is the reason- not the IPad

The tablet market is still in it's infancy.
Not yet entirely comparable directly to the laptop segment.

toupeiro
August 23rd, 2010, 06:17 AM
A netbook really pertains more to the chipset and CPU architecture than the overall screen real estate IMO. It's a laptop form factor, with a lighter (in a workload sense) chipset and CPU, ergo, netbook. saying you have a 12" netbook is valid I think.

Madspyman
August 23rd, 2010, 07:28 AM
Amazon calls my 12.1" a netbook
I have to concur.

MSI U230-040US 12.1-Inch Netbook - 4 Hour Battery Life (http://www.amazon.com/MSI-U230-040US-12-1-Inch-Netbook-Battery/dp/B0036OR9BK)

About netbook sales dropping.
Saturation is the reason- not the IPad

The tablet market is still in it's infancy.
Not yet entirely comparable directly to the laptop segment.

I think you own a laptop disguised as a netbook. Your netbook is a half a ghz in cpu, an optical drive, and a inch on the screen, away from being a laptop. In early 2009 $999 Macbooks had only slightly better specs.

formaldehyde_spoon
August 23rd, 2010, 08:17 AM
Amazon calls my 12.1&quot; a netbook
I have to concur.

MSI U230-040US 12.1-Inch Netbook - 4 Hour Battery Life (http://www.amazon.com/MSI-U230-040US-12-1-Inch-Netbook-Battery/dp/B0036OR9BK)

About netbook sales dropping.
Saturation is the reason- not the IPad

The tablet market is still in it's infancy.
Not yet entirely comparable directly to the laptop segment.

What Amazon calls it is of no interest (for example see my earlier post in this thread about what some companies call a ''tablet''). They want sales, and they'll apply any label that generates sales.
The most important feature of a netbook is extreme portability, so to claim that something without that feature can still be called a ''netbook' is just ridiculous.
A netbook really pertains more to the chipset and CPU architecture than the overall screen real estate IMO. It's a laptop form factor, with a lighter (in a workload sense) chipset and CPU, ergo, netbook. saying you have a 12&quot; netbook is valid I think.

No it doesn't. If that were the case all laptops would eventually move to ''netbook'' classification as they age.

toupeiro
August 23rd, 2010, 08:29 AM
What Amazon calls it is of no interest (for example see my earlier post in this thread about what some companies call a ''tablet''). They want sales, and they'll apply any label that generates sales.
The most important feature of a netbook is extreme portability, so to claim that something without that feature can still be called a ''netbook' is just ridiculous.

No it doesn't. If that were the case all laptops would eventually move to ''netbook'' classification as they age.

No.. a core2duo doesn't stop becoming a core2duo as it becomes 5 years old, anymore than some future quad-core version of the ATOM or ARM processor stops being an ATOM or ARM processor, which is a designated architecture for the netbook platform. Those (ATOM/ARM and Core2 in this example) are each a particular CLASS of processor and chipset. As they mature, so will the offerings, but they will both scale in their respective tiers as computing devices. It may move up in performance but it does not stop being a notebook and/or netbook. A notebook that debuts 5 years from now will still be able to do more than a netbook that debuts 5 years from now.

helen07
August 23rd, 2010, 08:34 AM
No, I don't. It's very helpful to everyone.

formaldehyde_spoon
August 23rd, 2010, 08:44 AM
No.. a core2duo doesn't stop becoming a core2duo as it becomes 5 years old, anymore than some future quad-core version of the ATOM processor stops being an ATOM processor, which is a designated architecture for the netbook platform. Those are each a particular CLASS of processor and chipset. As they mature, so will the offerings, but they will both scale in their respective tiers as computing devices. It may move up in performance but it does not stop being a notebook and/or netbook.

A very inaccurate and fuzzy statement.
ARM is an instruction set architecture, Atom is a ''family'' of Intel chips.
Once upon a time a 1.6 Ghz Atom would have been considered a behemoth, a power-house. It's chosen (now) to go in netbooks because of it's lower power consumption, and better energy efficiency. It is also used in devices other than netbooks, and netbooks also use chips other than Atom (and ARM offerings).

I took your ''lighter'' to mean ''less powerful'' because that's usually what it means in relation to hardware, but perhaps you meant something else.
Please give us some clear boundaries (numbers) that define your ''netbook'', and your ''non-netbook''. Remember, they'll have to be numbers that still classify a netbook from either the past or the future as a netbook.

Or you could just accept a netbook for what it is: a laptop with a screen 10'' or less.

toupeiro
August 23rd, 2010, 08:58 AM
A very inaccurate and fuzzy statement.
ARM is an instruction set architecture, Atom is a ''family'' of Intel chips.
Once upon a time a 1.6 Ghz Atom would have been considered a behemoth, a power-house. It's chosen (now) to go in netbooks because of it's lower power consumption, and better energy efficiency. It is also used in devices other than netbooks, and netbooks also use chips other than Atom (and ARM offerings).

I took your ''lighter'' to mean ''less powerful'' because that's usually what it means in relation to hardware, but perhaps you meant something else.
Please give us some clear boundaries (numbers) that define your ''netbook'', and your ''non-netbook''.

It's not that inaccurate, or fuzzy. You're just overcomplicating it.

I don't care what its clock speed is, I care what the product is, holistically. If AMD has taught you anything, it's that 1.9Ghz can outperform 3.0Ghz in its class if its got the right parts in the right places. Its a combination of all components, pieced together fundamentally on the limits of the architecture, that define a product as a netbook or notebook in this case. For example, you're likely not going to see a full featured i7 chip (as in one not completely stripped down to fit the form factor) and mobile gaming graphics chip in a $300 netbook, as you'll likely not see anyone trying to do CAD work, play starcraft 2 or do real-time video rendering on a $300 netbook. You'll also likely never see a mobile machine designed to do CAD work and real-time video rendering on an ATOM chip. Thats not to say you won't get one or two vendors that TRY it, but you will not see any mainstream shifts probably anytime soon, if ever.

In short, lighter IS less powerful. Atom architecture does not boast the same PCI-E bus, or the triple-channel memory controller that the nehalem architecture boasts. So, are you telling me you think an atom processor at 2.0Ghz can actually outperform a Core i5 @ 2.0Ghz?

Paqman
August 23rd, 2010, 08:59 AM
Netbooks have been the standout success in computing of the last few years. An awful lot of people have gone out and bought one. Speaking anecdotally, we have two at home (got rid of our laptop after buying one) and at work probably about 1/3 to 1/2 of the people in the office bring one in sometimes. These are non-technical people, they mostly use them for watching movies, surfing sites blocked on the company network over 3G and playing games.

The main advantage netbooks have over tablets is familiarity. People treat them like small laptops, and expect the OS to do likewise. This is why Linux did so badly on netbooks, because it generally wasn't offered with a fully-capable OS.

Laptops have become too large with too short a battery life. The market has shown that what people want is a highly portable computer with a full-fat OS and good battery life, and will trade off screen size and speed to get it.

The battery life issue is a real opportunity for Ubuntu, as we'll be able to put a full desktop OS onto an ARM-powered device well ahead of Microsoft or Apple. I think this is exactly what Canonical's netbook strategy is, they're heading straight for a gap in the market that will open shortly, and which the big boys don't seem to be well placed to exploit. If they can get the OEMs on board to do the marketing, they could do well.

formaldehyde_spoon
August 23rd, 2010, 09:01 AM
It's not that inaccurate, or fuzzy. You're just overcomplicating it.

I don't care what its clock speed is, I care what the product is, holistically. If AMD has taught you anything, it's that 1.9Ghz can outperform 3.0Ghz in its class if its got the right parts in the right places. Its a combination of all components, pieced together fundamentally on the limits of the architecture, that define a product as a netbook or notebook in this case. For example, you're likely not going to see a full featured i7 chip (as in one not completely stripped down to fit the form factor) and mobile gaming graphics chip in a $300 netbook, as you'll likely not see anyone trying to do CAD work, play starcraft 2 or do real-time video rendering on a $300 netbook. You'll also likely never see a mobile machine designed to do CAD work and real-time video rendering on an ATOM chip. Thats not to say you won't get one or two vendors that TRY it, but you will not see any mainstream shifts probably anytime soon, if ever.

In short, lighter IS less powerful, lest you think an atom processor at 2.0Ghz can actually outperform a Core i5 @ 2.0Ghz?

I didn't mention clock speed, and you haven't offered a new definition of netbook to compete with 'laptop with screen 10'' or less'.

toupeiro
August 23rd, 2010, 09:05 AM
I didn't mention clock speed, and you haven't offered a new definition of netbook to compete with ''laptop wit screen 10'' or less''.



Once upon a time a 1.6 Ghz Atom would have been considered a behemoth, a power-house. It's chosen (now) to go in netbooks because of it's lower power consumption, and better energy efficiency.



really?

And my whole point is that a netbook can have a 8" screen or a 12" screen and is still a netbook by its architecture. and a notebook is still a notebook with an 8" screen or a 12" screen by its architecture. It seems the only person fuzzy on this is you. :) I understand that concept pretty clearly.

Netbook (http://www.google.com/products/catalog?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=eeepc&oe=utf-8&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=6257976079181110942&ei=PSxyTLq_O4eosQOB-63QDQ&sa=X&oi=product_catalog_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDkQ8wIwAg#)

Notebook. (http://laptops.toshiba.com/laptops/libretto/W100)


Any questions?

formaldehyde_spoon
August 23rd, 2010, 09:10 AM
really?

And my whole point is that a netbook can have a 8&quot; screen or a 12&quot; screen and is still a netbook by its architecture. and a notebook is still a notebook with an 8&quot; screen or a 12&quot; screen by its architecture. It seems the only person fuzzy on this is you. :) I understand that concept pretty clearly.

I put 1.6 Ghz there because that's what Atoms are (were? am I still current?). I could just as well have replaced it with ''Intel'', or nothing at all: the clock speed is irrelevant (like you said yourself).

What architecture it that, that makes a laptop a netbook? Numbers please. (If you have something besides 'laptop with 10'' or less screen').

toupeiro
August 23rd, 2010, 09:13 AM
I put 1.6 Ghz there because that's what Atoms are (were? am I still current?). I could just as well have replaced it with ''Intel'', or nothing at all: the clock speed is irrelevant (like you said yourself).

What architecture it that, that makes a laptop a netbook? Numbers please. (If you have something besides 'laptop with 10'' or less screen').

Are you reading?! I never said notebooks or netbooks are defined by screen size, hence, why I linked a LIBRETTO! How about triple channel memory controllers. RAM bus speeds upwards of 800Mhz and 1.0Ghz in a laptop versus 533Mhz in a netbook? how about 512K cache on an atom versus 8MB (and 256K per core L2) on-die cache on a core i7? If you want more numbers, I suggest you do your own research.

formaldehyde_spoon
August 23rd, 2010, 09:18 AM
Are you reading?! I never said notebooks or netbooks are defined by screen size, hence, why I linked a LIBRETTO!

?? I said they are differentiated from laptops by screen size, I'm still waiting for you to produce a definition.

Re. the Libretto, for the third time in this thread, what a manufacturer/retailer calls a device doesn't carry much weight. I certainly wouldn't call the 7'' Libretto a laptop/notebook (I doubt anyone else would either). Touchscreen netbook maybe, at a stretch, but more likely just dual-screen tablet.

standingwave
August 23rd, 2010, 09:22 AM
I'm actually looking for a netbook for school.I've always thought the best (and most affordable) combination for school would be a desktop and a netbook. The netbook for note taking, checking email, etc. during the day and the desktop for home.

formaldehyde_spoon
August 23rd, 2010, 09:26 AM
EDIT for the edit:
... How about triple channel memory controllers. RAM bus speeds upwards of 800Mhz and 1.0Ghz in a laptop versus 533Mhz in a netbook? how about 512K cache on an atom versus 8MB on-die cache on a core i7? If you want more numbers, I suggest you do your own research.

Your point is? You're avoiding the question: how else, besides 'laptop with 10'' or less screen', would you like to define 'netbook' (with numbers, not holistic classes)?

toupeiro
August 23rd, 2010, 09:32 AM
?? I said they are differentiated from laptops by screen size, I'm still waiting for you to produce a definition.

Re. the Libretto, for the third time in this thread, what a manufacturer/retailer calls a device doesn't carry much weight. I certainly wouldn't call the 7'' Libretto a laptop/notebook (I doubt anyone else would either). Touchscreen netbook maybe, at a stretch, but more likely just dual-screen tablet.

well since you can't seem to read the fact toshiba calls it a laptop PC on their website, and you're apparently the self appointed authority on what Toshiba should deem their own product, is there any point continuing this conversation with you? Toshiba makes netbooks too, funny, that they didn't call a libretto one. The libretto has been around since 1996.. I still have a Libretto 110CT, about the size of a VHS cassette with a 7.1" screen that ran Windows 2000... It was a laptop then, libretto's have always been laptops, despite what you may think they are. They are laptops because the components in them are the same class components as laptops. Despite the advent of netbook, There has always been small form factor laptops available in what you're referring to as "netbook" sizes. What differentiates a netbook is its components.

formaldehyde_spoon
August 23rd, 2010, 09:34 AM
well since you can't seem to read the fact toshiba calls it a laptop PC on their website, and you're apparently the self appointed authority on what Toshiba should deem their own product, is there any point continuing this conversation with you? Toshiba makes netbooks too, funny, that they didn't call a libretto one. The libretto has been around since 1998.. I still have a Libretto 110CT, about the size of a VHS cassette with a 7.1&quot; screen that ran Windows 2000... It was a laptop then, libretto's have always been laptops, despite what you may think they are. They are laptops because the components in them are the same class components as laptops.

I fail to see any conflict there: the term netbook wasn't coined then. Like you say (and as I make clear in my definition) netbooks are a subset of laptops.
You're still avoiding it: if you don't agree with 'laptop with 10'' or less screen', how would you define netbook?

EDIT:
What differentiates a netbook is its components. Which components, and what are the boundaries of component classification that differentiates between netbook and notebook?

toupeiro
August 23rd, 2010, 09:43 AM
I fail to see any conflict there: the term netbook wasn't coined then.
You're still avoiding it: if you don't agree with 'laptop with 10'' or less screen', how would you define netbook?

EDIT: Which components, and what are the boundaries of component classification that defferebtiate between netbook and notebook?

I'm not avoiding it, you're ignoring it! As I've said, time and time again, CHIPSET and ARCHITECTURE designs. done and done. I can't get any more pointed than that (and I was this pointed from the beginning)

Arm based systems are a specific RISC based processor and chipset and Atom based systems are a specific ia32/64 based processor and chipset, with much different focuses of scale than Laptop and/or desktop components. they were DESIGNED for a particular class and use case, that from a development and consumer focus has been netbooks in a computing form factor.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/2493/12
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_architecture

Johnsie
August 23rd, 2010, 09:43 AM
I like netbooks and their mixture of power, covenient size, portability and pc compatibility.

I'm a professional programmer for the company I work for. I also get asked to fix peoples technical issues. I could not live without my netbook. It's really easy for me to carry from office to office and nearly as powerful as a laptop.

I would not be wanting to be lugging a heavy laptop around with me everywhere I go.

Also, the netbooks I use are sturdily built. They take a good beating quite well. I've found quite the opposite with laptops. Cracked screens etc. If if my netbook breaks with will only cost me 200 to get it replaced.


Mobile phones can be useful but their screens are not big enough to display an A4 page properly. This makes browsing the web a little less practical and while there are alot of mobile apps out there you can't hook a phone up to a cat5 cable or to a network in the same way that a pc would be connecting. This makes it difficult to test hardware or software.

Tablets look nice but I'm not a fan of on screen keyboards. I like to be able to feel where my fingers are on a keyboard and a vibration that only happens after the keypress does not really do anything for me in that regard.

Paqman
August 23rd, 2010, 09:44 AM
I'm still waiting for you to produce a definition.


Guys, does it matter? It's basically a marketing term. There is no official definition. There will always be some machines which are obviously netbooks, and some about which you're going to disagree.

If you really want to have a big argument about a poorly-defined term, start a thread about what constitutes "the cloud" and knock yourselves out ;)

Madspyman
August 23rd, 2010, 09:49 AM
From Wikipedia,

Netbooks (sometimes also called mini notebooks or ultraportables) are a branch of subnotebooks, a rapidly evolving category of small, lightweight, and inexpensive laptop computers suited for general computing and accessing Web-based applications; they are often marketed as "companion devices", i.e., to augment a user's other computer access.
At their inception in late 2007 as smaller notebooks optimized for low weight and low cost netbooks omitted certain features (e.g., the optical drive), featured smaller screens and keyboards, and offered reduced specification and computing power. Over the course of their evolution, netbooks have ranged in size from below 5" screen diagonal to over 11.6".[4] A typical weight is 1 kg (2-3 pounds). Often significantly less expensive than other laptops.

formaldehyde_spoon
August 23rd, 2010, 09:50 AM
I'm not avoiding it, you're ignoring it! As I've said, time and time again, CHIPSET and ARCHITECTURE designs. done and done. I can't get any more pointed than that (and I was this pointed from the beginning)

Arm is a RISC based processor and chipset and Atom is an ia32/64 based processor and chipset, scaled very, very differently from their full scale counterparts.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/2493/12
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_architecture

ARM is not ''a RISC based processor and chipset''.
ARM is a (reduced) instruction set (computer) architecture, please stop calling it a chipset or a processor. Chipsets and processors are designed using the ARM architecture.

Ok, you've named a component (chipset. I think you'll have to clarify what you personally mean by architecture).
Now, what specifications of a chipset make the laptop it's in a netbook?

toupeiro
August 23rd, 2010, 09:52 AM
Guys, does it matter? It's basically a marketing term. There is no official definition. There will always be some machines which are obviously netbooks, and some about which you're going to disagree.

If you really want to have a big argument about a poorly-defined term, start a thread about what constitutes "the cloud" and knock yourselves out ;)

Fair enough. I can agree it's a poorly defined term. I just don't like when people don't read what I'm writing, and accuse me of avoiding their question. He doesn't have to agree with me, but damnit, I know what I said! :lolflag:

toupeiro
August 23rd, 2010, 09:53 AM
ARM is not ''a RISC based processor and chipset''.
ARM is a (reduced) instruction set (computer) architecture, please stop calling it a chipset or a processor. Chipsets and processors are designed using the ARM architecture.

Ok, you've named a component (chipset. I think you'll have to clarify what you personally mean by architecture).
Now, what specifications of a chipset make the laptop it's in a netbook?

Sorry, I can't help you. Whatever scratches your itch.

Start here and PM me when you're ready.

RISC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reduced_instruction_set_computing)

Khakilang
August 23rd, 2010, 09:55 AM
Our recent PC Fair shows that Netbook out sell Notebook and Desktop. I don't know the percentage. So I would say it is far from being dead. But Desktop seem to be dying. Since end users have almost everything they need on a Netbook and Notebook beside the screen size.

Madspyman
August 23rd, 2010, 09:57 AM
Ok, you've named a component (chipset. I think you'll have to clarify what you personally mean by architecture).
Now, what specifications of a chipset make the laptop it's in a netbook?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netbook#Processor_architectures

Maybe this link can help.

Madspyman
August 23rd, 2010, 10:05 AM
Our recent PC Fair shows that Netbook out sell Notebook and Desktop. I don't know the percentage. So I would say it is far from being dead. But Desktop seem to be dying. Since end users have almost everything they need on a Netbook and Notebook beside the screen size.

I don't think laptops will replace the desktop in production environments, where the PC is company owned, provided for a specific workstation, and portability isn't a requirement, also laptops are easier to steal.

formaldehyde_spoon
August 23rd, 2010, 10:06 AM
Sorry, I can't help you. Whatever scratches your itch.

Start here and PM me when you're ready.

RISC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reduced_instruction_set_computing)

So still nothing that you can put to paper then? Anyone with any advances on 'laptop with 10'' or less screen'?

May I very respectfully and politely (no sarcasm) suggest you read the link posted by Madspyman above, and the ARM link you posted yourself?
My doctoral research involves the ARM instruction set, so I won't bother taking my own advice from this post ;).

As an extremely brief and blunt summary, from top to bottom:

- Atom vs Snapdragon(for example)
- x86/ia32 vs ARM
- CISC vs RISC

toupeiro
August 23rd, 2010, 10:11 AM
So still nothing that you can put to paper then? Anyone with any advances on 'laptop with 10'' or less screen'?

May I very respectfully and politely (no sarcasm) suggest you read the link posted by Madspyman above, and the ARM link you posted yourself?
My doctoral research involves the ARM instruction set, so I won't bother taking my own advice from this post ;).

As an extremely brief and blunt summary, from top to bottom:

- Atom vs Snapdragon(for example)
- x86/ia32 vs ARM
- CISC vs RISC

I gave you an example of a "laptop with a 10" or less screen". The toshiba libretto's, for over a decade, have been an example of that. But, you choose not to accept that example. Sounds like you want the rest of us to conform to your definition of what a notebook/netbook is...

And for the record ARM(7,9 and Cortex series) ARE processors, and ARM is also an architecture. I didn't realize I had to spell that out to someone doing doctoral research..

Paqman
August 23rd, 2010, 10:13 AM
I don't think laptops will replace the desktop in production environments, where the PC is company owned, provided for a specific workstation, and portability isn't a requirement, also laptops are easier to steal.

Yeah, desktops still rule in business use. A lot of companies i've worked for have also used laptops and docks for people that need a portable machine they can also use at their desk (eg: engineers and technicians). If somebody came up with a dockable netbook for business they'd probably sell quite a few. Most engineers I know would much rather carry a nice light netbook out to whatever machine they're plugging it into than a big clunky laptop.

KiwiNZ
August 23rd, 2010, 10:14 AM
OK Netbook Mini Laptop , Ultraportable. Arm Risc Atom what ever sheesh

Lets take end the silly side argument now.

toupeiro
August 23rd, 2010, 10:16 AM
OK Netbook Mini Laptop , Ultraportable. Arm Risc Atom what ever sheesh

Lets take end the silly side argument now.

Sorry for derailing the thread with this, I'm done. Just one of those nights for me.:popcorn:

formaldehyde_spoon
August 23rd, 2010, 10:19 AM
I gave you an example of a &quot;laptop with a 10&quot; or less screen&quot;. The toshiba libretto's, for over a decade, have been an example of that. But, you choose not to accept that example. Sounds like you want the rest of us to conform to your definition of what a notebook/netbook is...

I agree 100%, that liberettos are laptops (see above, I said netbooks are a subset of laptops). That's not what I asked, however. What is the definition of a [edit: typo] netbook? What, specifically, allows you to call a laptop a netbook?
And for the record ARM(7,9 and Cortex) ARE processors, and ARM is also an architecture. I didn't realize I had to spell that out to someone doing doctoral research..Wrong.
They are versions of the ARM architecture.
OMAP1710 is a processor.
MSM6245 is a processor.
AT91SAM is a processor.

KiwiNZ
August 23rd, 2010, 10:21 AM
I agree 100%, the liberettos are laptops (see above, I said netbooks are a subset of laptops). That's not what I asked, however. What is the definition of a laptops? What, specifically, allows you to call a laptop a netbook?
Wrong.
They are versions of the ARM architecture.
OMAP1710 is a processor.
MSM6245 is a processor.
AT91SAM is a processor.

I have that this side debate be closed.

Last request or I will close the thread

formaldehyde_spoon
August 23rd, 2010, 10:23 AM
I have that this side debate be closed.

Last request or I will close the thread

OK, np. You posted while I was still writing, didn't see it.

toupeiro
August 23rd, 2010, 10:49 AM
So a little more on topic: Here's a use case I aided my aunt in recently when she came up from Brazil. She said she wanted an iPad to take to clients to show her cake designs. She said she wanted the ability to show her website to clients, load a lot of pictures from Micro-SD from events where her cakes were served, print them if necessary, and load her cake designing program on the iPad so she could do some quick designs at the appointment. She did mention that something easily portable would be nice, but the price point had to be less than 700 (international customs.) Well, based on those requirements, I believed the iPad was not a good device for her.

I showed her a really nice Asus netbook, dual core Atom, 2Gb Ram. She was able to load all her pictures, make really nice slideshows, but when it came to the cake application... it took 2 hours to install. It required a special MS-sql developer suite to be installed as a prerequisite, and a few .net updates as well.. (had I known this ahead of time, it would have made my decision a little easier)

The processors were pegged almost the entire time. With the overhead of Windows 7, plus an app with runtime requirements like this, it put her right out of the scope of netbook. If she didn't want to use this beast of a professional cake application, the netbook would have been a win, and she was very happy with it up to that point. I ended up wiping it and reloading the factory install on it and took it back. We got a dual-core notebook, only weighing 3/4 pound more than the netbook and I'm pretty sure the exact same size screen, but an i3 (if I remember correctly) processor but a little over her customs declarations limits for this trip (I got to keep some alcohol she left behind :-) ), and the install completed in less than 20 minutes including all the pre-requisite software.

I think that is a good case and scenario where iPad tablets, netbooks, and notebooks all have particular use cases and boundries with eachother. The iPad didn't have any MicroSD expandability when she was here (Still don't think it does?) It also doesn't support flash, which is used on her website for her cakes quite extensively. There were certainly tasks not well suited for netbook class devices that we encountered as well, like sql backended applications, where clearly traditional notebook components and architecture took us further. In the end, she had a lightweight device with a good battery life and enough processing power to handle the tasks at hand in the same form factor (well, within centimetres of eachother perhaps, they looked the same to me.)

That being said, I still think netbooks offer a solid "cafe setting or your casual activity do jour" device, where you want to view pictures, surf the web, watch a few flash videos, and while the iPad introduces real competition in that space, I think the expandability and compatibility of the netbook will secure its position in a market with the iPad for quite some time. Definitely nowhere near death.

.02

HolidayQueen
September 8th, 2010, 12:01 AM
I don't know why netbooks are set apart from traditional laptops in the first place, after all, towers and monitors come in a variety of shapes and sizes, without having to redefine the categories.

Netbooks will always be practical for people who like to carry computers without actually feeling like youre carrying a computer, it doesn't weight much and it doesnt require its own case to carry it around. And personally speaking, i dont see the point of buying a tablet which is essentially the same 10" screen, sans a keyboard, which costs 2 to 3 times more, and has lower specs. For me, the tablets are fashion statements. Looks good yeah, but i wouldnt want to be stuck typing anything on it for prolonged periods, having to hold it at a proper angle with one hand and typing with the other.

aysiu
September 8th, 2010, 12:10 AM
I don't know why netbooks are set apart from traditional laptops in the first place, after all, towers and monitors come in a variety of shapes and sizes, without having to redefine the categories.

Netbooks will always be practical for people who like to carry computers without actually feeling like youre carrying a computer, it doesn't weight much and it doesnt require its own case to carry it around. And personally speaking, i dont see the point of buying a tablet which is essentially the same 10" screen, sans a keyboard, which costs 2 to 3 times more, and has lower specs. For me, the tablets are fashion statements. Looks good yeah, but i wouldnt want to be stuck typing anything on it for prolonged periods, having to hold it at a proper angle with one hand and typing with the other.
Touchscreen tablets are gadgets, not computer replacements. They're fun for swiping around on. The appeal is mainly in the interface, not the robustness of functionality.

KiwiNZ
September 8th, 2010, 12:39 AM
Touchscreen tablets are gadgets, not computer replacements. They're fun for swiping around on. The appeal is mainly in the interface, not the robustness of functionality.

My son who is at Medical School would strongly disagree with you. On his IPad he has many medical text books on ibooks and many Medical Apps that he has found invaluable and would be a pain to carry around. The iPad is much ligher and the battery life lasts him all day if not longer.

It is his study guide , reference library,note taker, mobile assignment writer all in one with out causing a back injury.

aysiu
September 8th, 2010, 02:46 AM
I didn't say the iPad was useless. I'm glad your son finds it useful. I said touchscreen tablets are not computer replacements and that the appeal is mainly in the interface and not the robustness of functionality. How is that at odds with your son finding it useful for medical apps?

formaldehyde_spoon
September 8th, 2010, 03:13 AM
My son who is at Medical School would strongly disagree with you. On his IPad he has many medical text books on ibooks and many Medical Apps that he has found invaluable and would be a pain to carry around. The iPad is much ligher and the battery life lasts him all day if not longer.

It is his study guide , reference library,note taker, mobile assignment writer all in one with out causing a back injury.

No doubt it would be excellent as an electronic library, but I find it hard to believe he does any extended serious note taking or writing with it.

HappinessNow
September 8th, 2010, 11:22 AM
No doubt it would be excellent as an electronic library, but I find it hard to believe he does any extended serious note taking or writing with it.At the University I attend iPads have been showing up in classrooms as early as the first summer session this year.

There was one girl in my Japanese class that had one in session I of this summer, but she dropped out shortly after class started.

If KiwiNZ's son utilizes Google Documents (or other similar tools) effectively it may be completely functional for note taking and writing papers.

I have a laptop; like most students do, but honestly most students; at my University, like I - find anything weighing more then a pound way too much to add to their backpacks or carry around in general.

I would consider even the iPad too much to lug around (at 1.5 pounds [0.68 kg] Wi-Fi model; 1.6 pounds [0.73 kg] Wi-Fi + 3G model), and find the less then 1 pound Galaxy Tab (at 0.837756596 pounds [0.38 kg]) very appealing. Yet the computer facilities are so outstanding at the University I attend it is hard to find any good reason to lug any device around, again unless of course it is super light weight much like the Galaxy Tab and weighs in under a pound and can also act as a phone replacement with bonus front and rear cameras.

on the main question: Do you think the netbook is dead?

I don't think netbooks really ever came to life, but will remain around as a small niche product.

t0p
September 8th, 2010, 02:37 PM
I bought a very early netbook (Asus EeePC 701, with its 4GB SSD and Celeron M processor) and when I look at the specs of current netbooks I kick myself for jumping in so soon.

But at some point my EeePC is going to bite the dust. And when that happens, I plan to buy another netbook. I feel they have a wonderful niche (smaller than notebooks, bigger than smartphones, and they can (eventually) do what larger computers can do. The netbook is not just a web-browsing + email device - it's a real computer. Small but real.

Tablets (like the iPad) hold no attraction for me, because I really don't like touch-screen "keyboards". I've used a friend's touchscreen-equipped smartphone before (quite a few times) to send text messages and do other stuff, and the touchscreen keyboard annoys the hell out of me. It's all well and good pointing out that an external keyboard is available for the iPad... but so what? I don't want to carry round an iPad and a keyboard. These things are supposed to be portable.

Who knows: maybe by the time my EeePC dies tablets will have changed to the extent that makes one a viable option. But as things stand, netbooks fill a need that they will continue to fill for some time. So netbooks ain't dead as far as I'm concerned. I lurrve my netbook.

KiwiNZ
September 8th, 2010, 10:33 PM
No doubt it would be excellent as an electronic library, but I find it hard to believe he does any extended serious note taking or writing with it.

He uses it as a portable extension of his iMac for his assignments updates them and works on them during breaks etc and syncs with the master copies when he returns home.

They make good note takers as the keyboard is silent. But in times when speed noting is needed such as some lectures then of course nothing beats paper and short hand.

Before we purchased the iPad for him he carried a massive back pack every day. Now he does not.

kamaboko
September 9th, 2010, 12:25 AM
Netbooks are the bomb. My desktop PC is used for a HTPC, so other than that, I never touch it. My daily worker is a netbook.

1492
September 9th, 2010, 01:58 AM
What is a netbook?

t0p
September 9th, 2010, 04:33 AM
I've got a netbook, and it certainly isn't dead.

I bought an EeePC 701 not too long after they came out. I have since cursed my impatience many times: the 701 has a 4GB SSD, plus I got a 4GB SD card to carry /home. The small home directory doesn't bother me, because I tend to take out only the files I think I might need. I don't want to carry my entire music collection on the thing.

The 701 is a pig of a thing really: crappy Celeron M processors, underclocked by default, and 512MB of RAM. I upgraded to 2GB RAM, but it's still sloow for a lot of things. Gimp? Holy heck, don't bother.

Thing is, despite all the EeePC's problems, I still love it. With its solid state drive (SSD) rather than a more fragile magnetic hard disk drive. I'm a clumsy, drunken oaf at times, and I've dropped my netbook or knocked it off tables at least... I dunno, lotsa times. But it still works perfectly, whereas a conventional HDD would have died quickly. Unfortunately, the great majority of current netbooks have HDDs, and the extra capacity possible, which means a fall to the floor might bugger the thing. What's more important to you: SSD resilience or HDD capacity. Me, I want both: why does a large SSD have to be so expensive?

The EeePC's still working just fine. So hopefully when I need a replacement there'll be 100GB SSDs all over the place. Since that isn't going to happen, plan B is a netbook with good all-round specs and a good HDD. I've seen offers here and there, such as at maplin.co.uk, but I didn't really recognise any of the manufacturers. Hopefully, when the time comes, the major computer houses will be selling the netbooks I foresee.

t0p
September 9th, 2010, 04:37 AM
What is a netbook?

Look here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netbook).

You'll also find informative stuff here (http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&source=hp&q=what+is+a+netbook&aq=f&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=19d56d55e917955e).

Cheers

Dr. C
September 9th, 2010, 06:11 AM
In order to create a useful stand alone device in this form factor you need the battery life and portability of an iPad combined with the functionality of a laptop. It can be done only if one sticks to a FLOSS desktop OS such as Ubuntu. A good example along these lines is the Touchbook (http://www.alwaysinnovating.com/touchbook/).

The current crop of netbooks are in fact crippled by the need to support Microsoft Windows x86 propriety applications. So no power efficient ARM processors. There goes the battery life and light weight. They are further crippled by software licensing limitations of Windows 7 Starter. http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/22/microsoft-publishes-maximum-windows-7-netbooks-specs/: Screen size must not exceed 10.2in (Ever wonder why netbooks have such ugly thick bezels? They have to accommodate Microsoft and at the same time produce a keyboard that an adult can comfortably type on.). Hard drive under 250 GB (64 GB if SSD), singe core processor under 2 GHz, memory not to exceed 1GB etc.

If one wants to run propriety applications in the netbook / tablet form factor one either has to produce a device that really has to be used in conjunction with another computer as Apple has done with the iPad, or one is likely to get a severely limited and crippled device. Unless FLOSS comes to the rescue the netbook is dead.

Madspyman
September 9th, 2010, 07:47 AM
In order to create a useful stand alone device in this form factor you need the battery life and portability of an iPad combined with the functionality of a laptop. It can be done only if one sticks to a FLOSS desktop OS such as Ubuntu. A good example along these lines is the Touchbook (http://www.alwaysinnovating.com/touchbook/).

The current crop of netbooks are in fact crippled by the need to support Microsoft Windows x86 propriety applications. So no power efficient ARM processors. There goes the battery life and light weight. They are further crippled by software licensing limitations of Windows 7 Starter. http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/22/microsoft-publishes-maximum-windows-7-netbooks-specs/: Screen size must not exceed 10.2in (Ever wonder why netbooks have such ugly thick bezels? They have to accommodate Microsoft and at the same time produce a keyboard that an adult can comfortably type on.). Hard drive under 250 GB (64 GB if SSD), singe core processor under 2 GHz, memory not to exceed 1GB etc.

If one wants to run propriety applications in the netbook / tablet form factor one either has to produce a device that really has to be used in conjunction with another computer as Apple has done with the iPad, or one is likely to get a severely limited and crippled device. Unless FLOSS comes to the rescue the netbook is dead.

So in order to save the Netbook OEM's need to FLOSS more to avoid Wingivitis.

Legendary_Bibo
September 9th, 2010, 08:02 AM
In order to create a useful stand alone device in this form factor you need the battery life and portability of an iPad combined with the functionality of a laptop. It can be done only if one sticks to a FLOSS desktop OS such as Ubuntu. A good example along these lines is the Touchbook (http://www.alwaysinnovating.com/touchbook/).

The current crop of netbooks are in fact crippled by the need to support Microsoft Windows x86 propriety applications. So no power efficient ARM processors. There goes the battery life and light weight. They are further crippled by software licensing limitations of Windows 7 Starter. http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/22/microsoft-publishes-maximum-windows-7-netbooks-specs/: Screen size must not exceed 10.2in (Ever wonder why netbooks have such ugly thick bezels? They have to accommodate Microsoft and at the same time produce a keyboard that an adult can comfortably type on.). Hard drive under 250 GB (64 GB if SSD), singe core processor under 2 GHz, memory not to exceed 1GB etc.

If one wants to run propriety applications in the netbook / tablet form factor one either has to produce a device that really has to be used in conjunction with another computer as Apple has done with the iPad, or one is likely to get a severely limited and crippled device. Unless FLOSS comes to the rescue the netbook is dead.

Uhhh...tell that to ZaReason and System76. I'm going to be buying the Teo from ZaReason in a couple of days as soon as I get my Grant/Scholarship/Student Loan. Guess what? It can come with 2gb RAM, a 500gb HDD (They only have 40gb SSD, I'll have to contact them to see if it can be arranged to where I can pay for a higher amount). An Intel Atom with GMA3150 integrated graphics, and guess what? It comes preinstalled with one of the major linux distros of your choosing. It's also very thin and tiny.

toupeiro
September 9th, 2010, 09:05 AM
I saw some very cool demonstrations at VMWorld in San Francisco last week of new administrator geared iPad apps for infratructure apps. This one company had an ipad app for thin provisioning vm's, assigning VLANS, all by object oriented swipes. You essentially built the server with icons associated with your vmware environment, and it deploys virtual machines in such a config. There were also other uses cases for the tool. If technical-minded applications like this take hold, IT will begin to see this device in a whole new light. Right now, it's more geared towards the cafe computing use with small spurs into other areas. While it doesn't have the full breadth of a PC applications library, what I saw last week demonstrated new capacity and potential for the tool that wasn't 100% vaporware and brain clouds.

toupeiro
September 9th, 2010, 09:21 AM
A good example along these lines is the Touchbook (http://www.alwaysinnovating.com/touchbook/).


Man, that is awesome!

aysiu
September 9th, 2010, 02:52 PM
The current crop of netbooks are in fact crippled by the need to support Microsoft Windows x86 propriety applications. So no power efficient ARM processors. There goes the battery life and light weight. The latest Asus Eee PC netbooks get 9-11 hours of battery life.