Web Development Hell (Dealing with clients that are clueless)

[Lucky.]

Anybody out there do web development as a business?

Thought I'd vent a little and get some feedback (or hear some other amusing stories) regarding this. Here's my story:

Being a software engineer in a small town, people kept hitting me up to make websites for them. After a couple of people showed up and committed to pay money for web sites, we launched a small business out of our home to try it out.

All of the web developers in our small town area are one of two types:

1. "I'm an excellent coder but my web sites are ugly!"

2. "I can use Dreamweaver! What's this PHP you speak of? Javascript? Huh?"

Also let it be known that none of these developers understand or care about cross-browser compatibility.

In comparison, I'm a great coder, and my wife is a great graphic designer. OUR POWERS COMBINED! - We're able to make some beautiful pages that rival fancy development firms in terms of both graphic design and functionality. Hooray!

So enter the clients....

Our first client wanted a static website for her vacation property. She had a vague vision of wanting a lot of "oohs and aahs" and clouds. Nice. Unfortunately she had no logo, and no pictures of her property. We agreed to start the project with promises that the client would deliver the photos, but then we never got them. My wife (the graphic designer) had nothing to work with for 3 months. Without it, we fumbled around for a long time trying to imagine what the site should look like, picking fonts and colors that we hoped would work with the future photos, etc. We wasted a ton of time on this. In addition, the client had little idea what content to write anywhere, and placed that responsibility on us. So we basically scripted the entire site, added in filler here and there, and crossed our fingers that we captured the mood she wanted.

Fortunately the client was easy to please, and basically fell in love with the site when she saw it. Yay! Site delivered, but what should have taken a month ended up being 4 months because we were waiting on photos.

Revenue? $1200. Yay. But hey, the first client was a learning experience, and we undercharged since we were starting out and experimenting. That's ok.

Enter client #2. This is a mid-sized business (60 employees). They contracted us out to build them a new static-paged basic corporate website. I knew this company and had heard from other people in the community that they were notorious for shifting requirements and being nit-picky. For my own safety, I wrote up a contract that locked us into a limited development cycle with clear phases:

Phase 1: Vision and basic layout (no time limit)
Phase 2: Mockup approval - final requirements gathering and supplied content (logo, photos, written content, etc, no time limit)
Phase 3: Development (8 weeks begins)
Phase 4: Minor Changes (last couple weeks)

The contract was for $6000, and any major changes after requirements were solidified and approved would start costing extra.

The first thing I noticed was that their review team was too big. Executive managers mixed with low-level managers & marketing people made for a bad mix. Nobody could agree on anything, and many of the more creative lower level employees couldn't get a word in over the upper level ones. Out of their options, they frankensteined a terrible layout, and set other restrictions that reduced color and other creative elements of the site.

The company had a logo, but it was terrible. Blurry, not vector-based, possibly even stolen from Google Images, didn't even have a transparent background. Furthermore the photos were a nightmare. Being a corporate site, they wanted beautiful photos to match the competition. However they were cheap, so they hired a professional photographer that made my grandma's shaky-handed cell phone photos look like Ansel Adams's work. By this time I was reading other web development blogs, and it appeared as if everybody recommends stock photos. I was starting to understand why. While we blocked off time and were eager to start the project, they took a 3 full months to get a bad logo, worse photos, and poor content to us. We should have just done something else in the meantime (started with another client), but instead we fumbled around for 3 months trying to design a mockup site with no vision of what they wanted. It was a huge waste of our time.

After we received the photos & logo, My wife fixed/finished the mockup as best as she could to match the feel. Most of the time was spent post-processing bad photos and trying to make a broken logo look semi-reasonable. We really should have written down our hours on this, and will next time so we can gage how good/bad we're doing on a project.

We brought the mock-up to the next meeting, and everybody seemed pretty happy with it. It was approved, so we moved forward. One by one I started hearing from individuals on the team that they really didn't like it but they didn't want to say anything because they didn't want to tick off Manager X or Y.

Too late! The requirements were stamped and sealed, and we were going to deliver the product.

However....

Holy smokes, the photos were flat out terrible, and we spent hours upon hours filtering the good from the bad and doing post-processing on every one of them. We told the company that they needed to get better photos, but the reaction was "well we're in too much of a hurry so we'll just move forward with what we have and improve them later."

The content was equally bad. Most of it was just ripped off from their poster advertisements, so it was a bunch of bulleted items and lists. The formatting of this bulleted content was terrible for the site, so inline photos didn't work very well. The entire design was suffering.

4 weeks into the development cycle, even though we'd played by the rules of our own contract...we had an ugly site that nobody was happy with (including ourselves). Being that we're a new web business, we really didn't want to even put this in our portfolio - we knew we could do better - it was just a matter of getting our customer to allow us some creativity and good content to go with. We decided to do a "site upgrade" and make another mockup with some changes, more color, etc.

It was beautiful.

The company fell in love with the site redesign. We should have charged them extra, but we really just wanted them to be happy. The problem was that by this time, the place had gotten a new marketing manager that didn't have a clue about the original contract we set up. So on my side of the equation I'm saying "We're going above and beyond, so enjoy it and don't cause a stir." But he was thinking "We're back at square one, making all sorts of changes. I want X, Y, Z, and could you photoshop 5 different versions of that logo so I can pick and choose what I like and don't like?"

I did a little pick and choose as to what would be for free, and pushed hard on the rest and said "It will cost you extra." This is giving the new guy a bad taste in his mouth for our business because he doesn't understand the back-story.

Even worse, towards the end of the project I got the COO of the company getting excited about it. After begging to see the site, he looked at it (in its 95% completed form) and said "Huh. Well it needs a lot of work." After explaining to him that changes at this point to going to cost extra, he got pretty upset.

Originally I only wanted to bring my wife (the designer) into 2 or 3 meetings max while I could cover the rest myself. However the site redesign and the new marketing manager started things anew, and they kept requesting both of us to show up over and over and over. Here we are on the 5th meeting now, making tiny changes. When you get 2 people in a room (me and my wife) for a 3 hour meeting, that's 6 hours of time wasted. At a potential $60 an hour, that's $360. $360 * 5 meetings = $1800 in meetings alone. Tack on the logo redesign, photo post processing...actual web design has probably been 1/4 of our actual time.

In the end we're still going to get paid, but it will be peanuts when you add up the hours it took.

Blah blah blah whine whine whine, it's all in the past and we're just going to push through this project and finish it.

The stuff I'm wondering is "this is probably going to happen again and again and again." So I start to think "how can I protect myself?" And this means an even more stricter contract. So I start thinking....

Clients don't understand that web site design is simply web site design. It's not professional photography, not logo design, and certainly not journalist/author writing pages upon pages about their site. I can guide them through these steps or help a little bit (i.e. write a filler page or take a couple of snapshot photos), but most of this will be up to them. I see this being a continual problem, and probably something I shouldn't expect clients to understand.

So some ideas...

1. Charge an initial buy-in "Project Start" fee. Once we get the basic vision & requirements down, charge them a percentage or a fee when the contract is signed so they have an incentive to deliver media/content...that way I'm not stuck in some 6 month contract that may never end if they drop the ball at some point in time (or if I choose to fire them because they keep violating the contract).

2. Significantly limit my meetings (put in contract?). Keep everything e-mail based, and charge extra for anything past x amount of meetings.

3. Build a portfolio and let the dumb customers be dumb customers. i.e. if they ask for a terrible site, then they get it...there are no site redesigns without charging extra. Major changes can be outlined in the contract.

4. Ditch the hard coded solutions and start looking into Drupal or some other CMS. This way I can design & deliver a site and fill it with "Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet" type of junk to demonstrate the beauty of the site while letting them publish their written content & picture selections on their own timeline.

5. Start charging for logo design & photography. We're not experts at it by all means, but it seems like we can do better than what we've been given by clients...why not make money while staying efficient rather than losing money and dealing with junk they provide?

I feel like after a couple of bad experiences, I'll probably rip my next customer's head off in the initial consult and throw a bunch of protection paperwork and restrictions on him. That's silly. How do you deal with this type of stuff & still turn a profit without killing your clients?

Clearly my clients are not the only ones that are clueless. I need to get a decent process solidified on my end and make things abundantly clear to them in some form.

Wow, hooray for novels. I'm off to go read The Oatmeal (http://theoatmeal.com/comics/design_hell) and weep bitterly.

[23meg]

Ah, the "smart designer vs. clueless client" diatribe again.

You shouldn't expect your clients to be clueful about what makes up your profession; it's you should push them, educate them to the greatest extent that's practical for your relationship with them, and be unapologetic and demanding in getting what you want from them. Design is your profession, and the business and project management overhead that comes with it is your responsibility if you want to make money. If you're failing at this, you're failing at your profession, and will keep doing so.


The stuff I'm wondering is "this is probably going to happen again and again and again." So I start to think "how can I protect myself?" And this means an even more stricter contract. So I start thinking....

It's nice that you came up with some principles to protect yourself and establish better relations with your clients. Here are some more; this is some of my recent favorite writing on the subject (of professionalism and designer vs. client) from Andy Rutledge and Nathan Ford:

http://www.andyrutledge.com/stupid-is-as-stupid-does.php
http://unitinteractive.com/blog/2010/06/24/your-clients-are-not-stupid/

[KiwiNZ]

First the "dumb" clients provide your living , respect them if you don't you deserve to go out of business.

I hate with a passion the IT arrogance displayed here. You need to learn to listen to your clients and work with them at their agenda , not yours. Heard of the idiom " he who pays the piper calls the tune" ?

Second you are placing your values on their business , that is not your right. It is their business you must follow their values to provide the service they are paying for.

[Johnsie]

Clueless clients... Welcome to the world of IT. I have to deal with clueless people every day, mostly staff within the company. People expect miracles and think everything easy. It frustrates me at times, but also provides me with some laughs. The only thing to do is try to be patient and make sure they know you are more intelligent than them by using alot of jargon.

There's a reason why you are the programmer and they are not. Don't expect people who are not programmers to know about programming. 90% of people who use computers have very little idea how to work them other than turn them off and use Office. It's their weaknesses in programming and computing that makes you the money. If everyone could to it there would be no work for you ;-)

I wouldn't tell a builder how to build a house, or an mechanic how to build my car. I give them some info and trust them to provide something good because they are the experts.

[KiwiNZ]

Clueless clients... Welcome to the world of IT. I have to deal with clueless people every day, mostly staff within the company. People expect miracles and think everything easy. It frustrates me at times, but also provides me with some laughs. The only thing to do is try to be patient and make sure they know you are more intelligent than them by using alot of jargon.

Just because you know a load of IT jargon does not make you more intelligent. If someone feels they need to do that I feel the opposite probably applies.

[slackthumbz]

KiwiNZ is right. Thankfully I work within an academic environment that is fairly laid back but even still, as a web developer/designer, I have to work with a lot of people who largely don't understand the minutiae of my role and I don't generally expect them to, nor do I hold it against them.

The first thing to do is minimize the number of people from the client organisation that are going to have a say in the project. The more cooks there are, the worse the broth to badly paraphrase.

Listen to your clients and expect them to change their minds frequently, it happens and will continue to happen but as KiwiNZ said they are the ones paying your bills.

Personally, I use a simple homegrown MVC-style system for most sites. It allows me to write a small subset of templates and then to structure content tailored to them. The upshot being that I can quickly put up a demo site to showcase the result of the latest changes the client has requested and get feedback from them as to any modifications they'd like made. Websites initial design always evolve quickly and even if the client ends up making you create an ugly piece of ****, just remember that essentially it's their ugly piece of ****.

A few templates and a good eye for apache configuration and frontend caching can save you a lot of time and trouble :)

[smellyman]

I don't mind clueless people, that's why they need your help.

Back when I was on tech support what I DID hate is when someone called and started with "Look I know what I am doing...I am an IT administrator"


Well you're the one calling me, don't get smug. :lolflag:

[keithpeter]

....In addition, the client had little idea what content to write anywhere, and placed that responsibility on us...

...appeared as if everybody recommends stock photos. I was starting to understand why....

Hello Lucky.

Just a couple of comments to add to what others have said: the writing of copy is as much as a skill/professional service as the photography and graphic design. Why not price those services in as discrete things? Quote sensible hourly rates based on professional photographers & designers.

As a customer, I recognise stock photos from a mile off, and I much prefer to see real people and places even if they are a bit rough.

Best of luck in getting your overheads under control and becoming profitable.

[Johnsie]

Just because you know a load of IT jargon does not make you more intelligent. If someone feels they need to do that I feel the opposite probably applies.


Totally uncessary comment there. Where do I go on this site to complain about trolling?

[KiwiNZ]

Totally uncessary comment there. Where do I go on this site to complain about trolling?

The comment was not directed at any one person in particular but a generalisation.

Just a footnote of irony ..... is this familiar " Linux should be about freedom, not restricting active conversations just because one person doesn't like it"

[prshah]

This touched a chord.

OP seems to be getting flak for calling his clients "clueless" / "dumb". Well, I don't think he's wrong.

Most businesses just want a website, without any clear plan how to take it forward, and how to leverage it to make it an asset to the company.

There are "business card" websites; they are for little other than ensuring that the www. on the business card does not lead to a 404.

Then there are those with grand plans, but no roadmap or implementation in real life. These are clients that are readily satisfied, but their websites are never completed.

Then there are those who have totally missed the purpose of a website: "Just put all our product photos (no other details), and put our phone number at the bottom; whoever wants more details can easily give us a call".

And finally there are those who are always searching for the BBD (Bigger, Better Deal) when creating a website; they are so busy searching that the website never gets done; every quote they get is discussed and re-hashed with every other provider who has ever given a quote, wasting everybody's time; and no productive work get done.

It's not going to get easier.

[fatality_uk]

This touched a chord.

OP seems to be getting flak for calling his clients "clueless" / "dumb". Well, I don't think he's wrong.

Most businesses just want a website, without any clear plan how to take it forward, and how to leverage it to make it an asset to the company.

There are "business card" websites; they are for little other than ensuring that the www. on the business card does not lead to a 404.

Then there are those with grand plans, but no roadmap or implementation in real life. These are clients that are readily satisfied, but their websites are never completed.

Then there are those who have totally missed the purpose of a website: "Just put all our product photos (no other details), and put our phone number at the bottom; whoever wants more details can easily give us a call".

And finally there are those who are always searching for the BBD (Bigger, Better Deal) when creating a website; they are so busy searching that the website never gets done; every quote they get is discussed and re-hashed with every other provider who has ever given a quote, wasting everybody's time; and no productive work get done.

It's not going to get easier.


And everything there is what the CLIENT wants. Often I feel that web designers "artistic integrity" is being challenged when a client wants a functional site, or just wants what they want.

Your job is to guide, inform and recommend

[Grenage]

Intelligence and buzzwords don't come into it; people who think otherwise are either insecure or deranged.

As for dealing with clients who don't have a clue; I'm sorry to break this to you, but that's the norm. If a client knew exactly how the website industry worked, there's a rather decent chance that they wouldn't need you.

The best thing you can do is to make your system/responsibilities abundantly clear, right from the start. You obviously don't want irritate the customer, but you have to draw a line.

[grahammechanical]

I am not a programmer or web designer, or anything like that. May I suggest that you and your wife develop a portfolio of web designs that you can show prospective clients. They can then settle on a suitable style or look which can be modified to suit their tastes. Think of these designs as templates.

I have spent many years as a Fire, Health & Safety officer. I have experienced managers telling me my job when they did not know what my role was. They lacked the training that I was given but they thought that they could tell me that I was doing my job wrong. They then moved on to some other assignment and I was blamed for any failings.

Managers have authority because they are managers and they need to prove that they are managers by making decisions. This is not bad if they seek and listen to advice. You are having to deal with the boss mentality. You are not seen as an expert or even as a supplier that they need to cooperate with. In their eyes you are less than a customer.

Perhaps you are pricing yourself too low. If it costs a fortune to hire you, then you must be good. That is how some people think. People at the top find it easier to spend £1,000,000 than to spend £100. They can visualize one hundred and will argue over it but cannot visualize millions and so quickly agree to spend it. Perhaps you could offer discounts for quick take ups.

Perhaps you could sell them the product in stages. If they are interested in your designs than you will personalize a design for so much. Pay that and then you will provide greater specialized detail. Do not sell them a pay at the end product but pay as they go. Then if they decide to scrap it you have recovered some of your costs. Be like the builder who only does so much work on your house extension and then requires some payment before continuing.

Regards

[LowSky]

In the world of business you should never go into a contract if you yourself will not honor it. It seems your dealing with businesses that are not very tech savvy. Lets face most are not. So you drew up a contract and they failed to deliver, so instead of you asking them to honor their commitment you yourself chose to dishonor your own, as you felt you needed the experience.

What you need to do is draw up a guide for presentation when you first meet the client, tell them what you do, what you don't, and what you will need from them to succeed in getting them a finished product. Clearly explain each item to them. Explain that you do not create logo's, slogans, details or pictures. Tell them you need this information upfront before any design work will start. Explain that you are willing to make a few rough drafts or changes, But once one idea is chosen the others will be scraped, and if any changes need to occur after that point you will need a new contract, or charge a fee for it inclusion.

Take that first meeting and layout ground rules, possibly explain industry standards for formats and tell them what they need to deliver so that you can do your job effectively. If they dont have the proper parts best find a person who does that work and offer their service. Having a business contacts can bring more work. So if you know people who do logo design or market writing, and the client does not point the work their way.

Start counting your hours, and bill accordingly. Do not flat rate your work as you will lose money every time. Have an initial commitment contract with a retaining fee, for just taking on the client. Don't go crazy mentioning the contract terms. Keep most of that to the first meeting, just silently bill them, and if they disagree then talk it over. If you can get a lawyer to write up a standard contract for you. The more you are contractually bound the better. You don't want to be swindled.

Finally take on more than one client at a time. You yourself basically said that your work is a set of phases. As soon as one phase is done from one client start working on that phase with another client and so on. This way you can slowly build your customer base and grow, and their will be little downtime between work. If needed you can potentially hire new employees and grow out of your home. Just remember you cannot please every client.

[JDShu]

The comment was not directed at any one person in particular but a generalisation.


Could've fooled me :rolleyes:

[Untitled_No4]

I do understand where Lucky is from. It's easy to say the customer is always right, but when the customer pays for a certain amount of work and then requires thee times that amount they can be someone else's right customers. If they're willing to pay for that extra work then there is no problem. The problem is that many customers think they can ask for much more work at the same price.

Here are my thought.
1. Separate your business into two different businesses. Everybody cares about design and nobody cares about coding (as long as it looks like they design). When a customer contract you for a web development and they don't have a design, say your wife is a graphic designer and that she can do it.

This is what my graphic designer friends include in their fees:
* discussing the customer requirements.
* creating three mockups out of which the customer should choose one.
* a round of short adjustments to the design up to X hours of work.

Then:
* if the customer doesn't like any of the mockups they charge extra to produce more.
* if more work is required than the X hours they charge per hour.
All this should be put down in her contract, obviously.

Your work should start when you receive a design, either by your wife or other graphic designer. This is how I do it:
* I estimate how many hours it will take me to accomplish. I do it by multiplying the average time it takes me to code a page multiplied by the number of pages, including the pages that nobody sees.
* I expect the customer to provide a technical overview. Something that explains what the website is supposed to do, what pages, etc. It's not supposed to be written in professional language, just to make things clear.
* If they don't have one, I create one for them. It takes me an hour and it's worth the time since later there are no misunderstanding. With my customers they usually do that but as I said I'm lucky and you'll probably have to create most if not all of them.
* I also create a site map.
* I don't start working before they signed the contract. My contract includes:
- a short description of the website.
- a reference to the technical overview and sitemap as sgreed specifications.
- The tools that I will be using (e.g. I don't do Flash, I don't want them to ask for Flash later. If they want Flash then I know other people).
- Add an explanation that the contract sum is for the above work only. Any extra is either priced per hour or, if I think it's going to take more than 5 hours, then by pricing this as an extra over.
- Add an explanation that I will only fix bugs written by me (in case they took someone else to do something else) and only for a period of 6 months after the website has gone live.
- Add an explanation that I am expecting all graphic elements to be supplied to me and that if anything else is required later the customer should supply those.
- Payment terms:
20% as deposit. Non-returnable if I started doing any work on the project.
60% when the website is finished but before it goes live (I use my own server as a test server, therefore the code is always in my "possession").
20% after the website has gone live. I consider these 20% as an optional discount for good customers and the ones that will never pay it... (I change those numbers depending on the customer, the project and how badly I want it Vs. how likely they are not to agree to those terms).

In my experience most people take their time doing their end (supplying images, texts, etc.) and that's why I never say no to work even if I have something that should start any day soon. Usually it doesn't and instead of sitting and waiting I have something else to do.

I realised that Architects have similar issues with their customers so I've learnt a lot from friends who work as architects, so if you know any architects you can ask for their tips as well.

[juancarlospaco]

c'mon theres no cross-browser compatibility,
try acid3test with IE in random example.

[Legendary_Bibo]

I was slightly annoyed at something else in the OPs' post that no one else seemed to catch.

You complained that the logo wasn't vector based really?! I've tried my hand at vector graphics, they're not the easiest thing to use. Raster graphics are easier to work with. Start large and resize when needed.

I designed a few logos for a friend that was starting his own business and he didn't seem to notice that the file wasn't svg. People don't know the difference, that, or they don't give a damn.

Hell, I made my seal with raster graphics using gimp.

Oh for those who don't know:
**Vector graphics: Art made by applying mathematical formulas and geometric shapes so that there is no loss of quality no matter how far it's zoomed in (e.g. Fractals).

**Raster graphics: Your normal colored by pixel technique.

[Grenage]

Vector graphics are the way to do things, but only a very small percentage actually use them (I imagine). Most small companies are too busy running the company to care about such trivial things.

[ticopelp]

A lot of great advice here already, I guess I'll support some of it.

OP, I've been in this business for thirteen years and have endured the kind of things you describe, and worse. I once spent months moving things "up a pixel and left a pixel" because I was working directly under a very controlling junior adjunct to the main client.

I think the best thing to do is plug your clients into a process, take charge and try not to let these scenarios develop in the first place.

In general, it's been my experience that people rarely know exactly what they want, but they always know what they don't want. So you end up with significant amounts of wasted effort as people say "not this" -- they don't know what they want, they just know it's not what you produced. Gently guiding them through a process will make both your lives easier. At times, you may have to take a polite but firm hand and tell the client when something isn't in their best interest. Sometimes they'll agree. Sometimes they'll dig in and want some new feature that's going to increase your workload significantly. Charge accordingly. Don't let the client steamroll you into doing extra work for no extra money.

When starting out with a client, I would draw up a contract, and be very clear. X amount of work for Y amount of money (usually a finished site meeting criteria that are set up front), and anything beyond that you charge Z per hour. People mean well, but a lot of clients love to tinker and fidget, and will be a lot less likely to do so if they know they're going to get a fat invoice every time they decide to change everything.

After you draw up the initial mockups, try to get all the information you can out of them, and gently but firmly press them into a final decision before you start any serious work. Emphasize that once the design is completed as agreed upon, that's fulfillment of the contract and further work from you will mean further money. Again, people mean well, but even if they aren't necessarily being malicious, they will try to get everything they can, especially if they know it won't cost them anything. A deposit up front is a great idea, because it commits you both. I know people who ask for half up front (I generally don't). Get it all in writing.

And even when frustrated, I would refrain from badmouthing your clients. They're your livelihood. War stories can be fun (I have some doozies) but can damage your reputation if it gets out to the wrong people that you consider your clients idiots.

Frustration is natural, but if you have some success, it will really help you to cultivate some skills in avoiding the commonly frustrating scenarios, and, more importantly, knowing when to fire a client. I've had clients that paid very well but simply weren't worth the late hours, the contradictory information, and the midnight phone calls. Know when to cut your losses and walk away.

Anyway, best of luck and I hope you get it all sorted with a minimum of frustration. At the very least, you'll have learned a lot from this.


You complained that the logo wasn't vector based really?! I've tried my hand at vector graphics, they're not the easiest thing to use. Raster graphics are easier to work with. Start large and resize when needed.

I find the opposite experience to be true; after working with quality vector graphics, I'll never make a raster logo again, ever. Vector graphics are an order of magnitude more flexible.

[Legendary_Bibo]

I find the opposite experience to be true; after working with quality vector graphics, I'll never make a raster logo again, ever. Vector graphics are an order of magnitude more flexible.

Yeah but he rather shows ignorance about how a company probably won't want to spend a lot of money on a graphics designer to make a logo, and that if they did it in house by an employee that you can't expect them to have the skills to work with vector graphics.

I always hear that complaint from web developers "Oh they wouldn't give me this or this in vector format whatever shall I do". I agree with you about their flexibility. I've messed around with other peoples' vector drawings and I have to say I like their flexibility. :)

To make them though, it's a learning experience. The methods and tools are different.

The OP could have informed the client of the differences of the graphics, so the client would understand why he preferred vector graphics.

[ticopelp]

Yeah but he rather shows ignorance about how a company probably won't want to spend a lot of money on a graphics designer to make a logo, and that if they did it in house by an employee that you can't expect them to have the skills to work with vector graphics.

I always hear that complaint from web developers "Oh they wouldn't give me this or this in vector format whatever shall I do". I agree with you about their flexibility. I've messed around with other peoples' vector drawings and I have to say I like their flexibility. :)

The OP could have informed the client of the differences of the graphics, so the client would understand why he preferred vector graphics.

In all fairness, your original post didn't say any of this. You just said "raster graphics are easier," which is what I don't necessarily agree with.

I agree there's no point in complaining... I've gotten some truly amazing (in a bad way) logos from clients. I once got a logo that had a photo embedded... with the stock photo watermark still plainly visible. :D

There have been a few instances where I've just taken their logo and recreated it from scratch in a vector program, just for the sake of my own sanity. It can sometimes make a nice surprise for the client when you give it to them as a freebie.

[whiskeylover]

To the OP: You just described 99% of the business out there. Clients hire professionals because they can't accomplish the task themselves. This does make them clueless about the subject, but it does not make them stupid.

Oh, and by the way, the client's desire to keep making changes only means one thing for you - More Billable Hours. I am in my 3rd year on a project that was initially projected to finish in 8 months.

[Legendary_Bibo]

In all fairness, your original post didn't say any of this. You just said "raster graphics are easier," which is what I don't necessarily agree with.

I agree there's no point in complaining... I've gotten some truly amazing (in a bad way) logos from clients. I once got a logo that had a photo embedded... with the stock photo watermark still plainly visible. :D

There have been a few instances where I've just taken their logo and recreated it from scratch in a vector program, just for the sake of my own sanity. It can sometimes make a nice surprise for the client when you give it to them as a freebie.

Yeah vector graphics are definitely easier to work with for that kind of stuff. Although to expect the client to provide a vector image is kind of a bad practice.

:lolflag: Reminds me of a story I heard or read where someone had an image linked to a different website they found on google and when the person shut down their site the image disappeared off their site so they tried suing the guy for not providing the image they stole.

[Lucky.]

Hi everyone,

Wow, got some great feedback!

Last night when I wrote this, I was being frank and venting. Seems like some people picked this up as I hate everybody that has and will ever hire me. Not the case. These clients are good people and I have a great relationship with the first (the second is starting to get frayed though with all of the changes). For those saying "suck it up, clients are your lifeblood and not morons", I'll take that. More or less I'm interested in protecting myself so this doesn't happen (as badly) again and I can keep my relationships with the customers on the up and up.

It seems like my development cycle and contract is pretty much right on track, but needs a little fine tuning and clearer explanation to the customer about how it will be. Past that, like you have said and I thought, it's time to start juggling multiple contracts to fill in the dead space.



"Second you are placing your values on their business , that is not your right. It is their business you must follow their values to provide the service they are paying for."

On one hand I really like this, but I think there needs to be more of a balance. If a client asks for garbage on their site, my portfolio suffers. I like to deliver good work, so I'm going to strongly recommend certain design elements. Of course if they demand junk, I can give it to them and never add it to my portfolio.



"Just a couple of comments to add to what others have said: the writing of copy is as much as a skill/professional service as the photography and graphic design. Why not price those services in as discrete things? Quote sensible hourly rates based on professional photographers & designers."

I love this. I originally didn't want to nickel and dime my customers, but after two projects I can see the same routine over and over. If I can gage out how long it takes to do these things & break the pricing down for the customer to understand, they can pick and choose what they want from me, and understand what will need to be done by someone else/themselves.


You shouldn't expect your clients to be clueful about what makes up your profession; it's you should push them, educate them to the greatest extent that's practical for your relationship with them, and be unapologetic and demanding in getting what you want from them. Design is your profession, and the business and project management overhead that comes with it is your responsibility if you want to make money. If you're failing at this, you're failing at your profession, and will keep doing so.



"I don't mind clueless people, that's why they need your help."


Very true. After reading some other sites last night, it became apparent that I need to be more of a confident professional in my consults. Right now the people that have contacted me know I'm starting out, so there's a bit of "Aww let's try to work with the new guy" rather than "Let's listen to this professional and go with his recommendation." Next time around I'll be a lot stronger and clearly guide people through the gauntlet of building a site.

I think after this project we'll be launching our own business site, which will explain some to the customer some of the requirements (why you should have a logo & photos to help guide the site design) & how the development cycle will work. Then I can refer customer to the site early on in the consult, and continually through the cycle. People are going to forget about that contract they signed...but having the basic ideas on a website should be clearer. In addition, we'll be building some templates as some have mentioned here, so future customers have an easier time visualizing what they like/don't like.

Thanks again, and I'll still be listening for any others that are posting here.

[Austin25]

Sounds a lot like this (http://theoatmeal.com/comics/design_hell).

[sydbat]

I just have a little problem with this part...
On one hand I really like this, but I think there needs to be more of a balance. If a client asks for garbage on their site, my portfolio suffers. I like to deliver good work, so I'm going to strongly recommend certain design elements. Of course if they demand junk, I can ask them to find someone else to build their site.So I fixed it for you.

You are a professional, so you have to direct your clients toward quality or fire them. Sometimes they need that firm hand to make them realize they were wrong. If not, there will always be other clients. Do not compromise your standards.

[tgalati4]

Dan Roam writes in the first chapter of his book "Back of the Napkin" about website design consisting of 3 elements: Brand (designer), Content (writer), and Function (engineer/programmer). Here's a video with some insight:

http://fora.tv/2009/02/24/Dan_Roam_The_Back_of_the_Napkin#fullprogram

I agree with ticopelp. You need to agree on a process for web development because simply delivering a static page will result in continuous refinement of the static page. I like Drupal for a CMS, but there are others that are equally good. If you can get buy-in on the process then you can bill to fill in the "content" around a flexible framework.

I like Dan Roam's model because you have to work with marketing folks, sales people, and engineering/technical staff. Each will have valid input on what the website should accomplish.

If you just work with the marketing folks, you will get a fancy logo and strong branding, but perhaps little product/service information and little tech support things that sales and engineering would want to see.

I enjoyed reading the story at least.

[eriktheblu]

As has been mentioned, retain the right to not accept a project.

If you feel the quality of the end product is not worthy of your name, distance yourself. Your product is your portfolio; protect it. It's fine to a point to let them have control of the design, but if it gets to where it's embarrassing, can it.

While your firm might not do photography, writing, or logo design, it is certainly in your interest to know people who do.

Go out, make friends, network. The business you direct to others will often be reciprocated.