Does the Moon affect our sleep/mood?

[Nick_Jinn]

You know, I am not too big on mainstream astrology. I am what you might call an 'opened minded skeptic', or a skeptics skeptic. I assume that the world is full of wonderful things we dont know about yet rather than that the world is made only of things that have already been proven....I feel that is a philosophical flaw in some schools of scientific thought....still, I dont blindly follow superstition either.


However, I subjectively notice that I stay up later on the full moon. It could be that its brighter, but its not brighter indoors. I shouldnt notice the difference. Ive also seen studies that suggest there is more crime on the full moon....there are certainly more outdoor electronic music parties....The moon is strong enough to pull on the ocean, and our bodies are made of salt and water and other elements.

I dont really believe in all those astrology predictions, like you are going to meet some new lover if you do such and such on this day of the week, but I do sort of believe that maybe the planets affect some subtle aspects of our psyche the same way they affect the weather.

What do you think?


I think its probably difficult to pin point exactly how something so subtle could affect people. It probably doesnt affect everyone the same making solid conclusions difficult.

[rollin]

Have you drunk lots of water perchance? Do you feel yourself sliding back and forward slowly and uncontrollably? :lolflag:

On a slightly more serious note I expect it does, perhaps something from evolution or hunting perhaps. Interesting topic.

[Nick_Jinn]

Many studies have been inconclusive. There are always going to be people who make a career out of tearing down theories that are not 100% conclusive and outside of the mainstream......Obviously warm weather and weekends are a bigger factor in crime statistics than the moon, but does that conclusively discredit odd findings as much as the skeptics claim it does?

Not everyone seems to have problems sleeping on the full moon....some people instead might have extra vivid dreams and sleep just great. How do you measure something so subjective?

[rollin]

Not everyone seems to have problems sleeping on the full moon....some people instead might have extra vivid dreams and sleep just great. How do you measure something so subjective?

Excellent question as per usual. At a guess and in the concept of being scientific I suppose it would have to involve a large number of people to provide a trend. An important factor would be how many people were told what the expirement was about and how many were not as I'm sure even this could change the outcome. Lifestyle and location to name a few other things too.

[ubunterooster]

Any tiny amount of light affects sleep, and studies suggest the altered gravity may play a part in lack of sleep. However the moon is known to excite the mind in most, leading to greater risk-taking. Personally, though, I get more active during the new moon.

What can I say? I have found so much peace and safety in the dark as opposed to the light. I'm a lurker at heart.

[TriBlox6432]

The moons gravity affects the liquids in your brain very slightly. But it's enough. There's more restlessness, hyperactivity, and crime during the full moon for such reasons.

[TNT1]

The moons gravity affects the liquids in your brain very slightly. But it's enough. There's more restlessness, hyperactivity, and crime during the full moon for such reasons.

And werewolves...

[lisati]

A healthy skepticism never went amiss. The word "lunatic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunatic)" comes to mind: while there might be a small correlation between phases of the moon and observed silliness/stupidity, we need to remember that correlation isn't the same as causation.

[TheKramer]

I doubt it.

Unless you are paying attention, know it is coming, and think it will affect you, then it might due to self-fulfilling prophecies, confirmation bias, etc. (but I think you were asking this in a more physical and less psychological sense).

http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/moon.html

http://skepdic.com/fullmoon.html

[PryGuy]

Of course it does! I do believe that everything in Universe is interconnected!

Another thing is how it affects people. A healthy person shouldn't feel it at all. But it can affect us weakened by the urban jungle.


I think its probably difficult to pin point exactly how something so subtle could affect people.I do not think it's 'subtile'. These are the titanic forces of nature. ;)

[earthpigg]

Does the Moon affect our sleep/mood?

no, i do not have a menstral cycle.

[TheKramer]

Of course it does! I do believe that everything in Universe is interconnected!

Another thing is how it affects people. A healthy person shouldn't feel it at all. But it can affect us weakened by the urban jungle.

I do not think it's 'subtile'. These are the titanic forces of nature. ;)

Citations?

I gave links (with numerous scientific citations) explaining why this is not physically likely.

Just curious about your evidence. :)

[magmon]

Citations?

I gave links (with numerous scientific citations) explaining why this is not physically likely.

Just curious about your evidence. :)

Can evidence exist on such questions? Each human is unique in more than simply personality. Perhaps some are affected while others remain untouched. Perhaps only people who are already unstable experience a change. The straw that broke the camel's back, as it is said.

[Nick_Jinn]

That is entirely possible.

They say a tiny fraction of the population is sensitive to EMFs and Wifi....we all are probably to some extent, but not enough that we notice the difference. Some people might not have as much resistance to it and are affected more greatly.


Difficult to prove, but just because a skeptic can find fault in the conclusions of a study or claim that proof is lacking or that other factors are greater, that does not disprove correlation or causality. It merely means the verdict isnt out.


Some skeptics go too far. They cross the line from being objective and scientific to merely taking the opposite view of any claim and make the same unscientific mistakes as the people who make outrageous claims, only in reverse....some do, not all of them.

I feel it is philosophically more sound to assume that we live in a vast and mysterious world where things beyond our perception understanding are common occurrences, rather than assume definitively that anything unproven should be considered false.




Sometimes I feel very energetic on the nights of the full moon, but I didnt know it was the full moon or didnt think about it until I learned about it the next day....unlikely to be suggestion, though as an individual I am a small sample size, so we cant draw any conclusions from anecdotal reports.

[handy]

The moons gravity affects the liquids in your brain very slightly. But it's enough. There's more restlessness, hyperactivity, and crime during the full moon for such reasons.

True, but the elliptical cycle of the moon which changes the distance of the moon from the earth is of course not connected to the moon phases; because the moon looks bigger on a full moon doesn't mean that it has more gravity. :) I know you knew that but I just had to... ;)



no, i do not have a menstral cycle.

It is very interesting phenomenon so many women menstruating around the full moon.

I am rarely effected by the moon, though I can feel it sometimes. My wife is very much effected by the moon & often has difficulty sleeping around that phase.

It would seem that some people are effected by its influence & others are not. This of course makes it very difficult for the natural sciences to decisively deal with the question of the influence of the moon on humanity.

[lordhaworth]

Possible, but it will not be through a direct physical interaction (e.g. gravity) - it would be through some ancestoral heritage as previously suggested.

A synoptic paper question which I enjoyed was roughly something like "an astrologer claims that Jupiter is in an unfavourable position at the time of your birth: calculate the gravitational forces acting on you from Jupiter at its closet approach to earth (x m away, mass m kg (i gorget no.s)) and a nurse standing 1m away."

The answer you get is that they are roughly identicle

[handy]

Possible, but it will not be through a direct physical interaction (e.g. gravity) - it would be through some ancestoral heritage as previously suggested.

I disagree. I have observed & sometimes felt the effects of the moon on other people & myself. I have seen a physiological effect, & as far as people talking about the light from the full moon being an issue as far as sleep is concerned, we sleep in a room that is insulated from same & my wife has been effected by the full moon all of her life. Her energy changes with the phases of the moon; before menopause she menstruated with the full moon phase (like so many other women) & had difficulty sleeping on the full moon.

These effects are not caused by ancestral heritage, they are physiological responses bought about by the reflected light of the sun from the moon (at least) that effects some but not other people in various ways.

No, my wife is not a lunatic she is a very intelligent, sensitive & rational person. :)

Not having had a certain experience ourselves doesn't mean that we can rule out the possibility of it existing in reality for many other people.

[Nick_Jinn]

I disagree. I have observed & sometimes felt the effects of the moon on other people & myself. I have seen a physiological effect, & as far as people talking about the light from the full moon being an issue as far as sleep is concerned, we sleep in a room that is insulated from same & my wife has been effected by the full moon all of her life. Her energy changes with the phases of the moon; before menopause she menstruated with the full moon phase (like so many other women) & had difficulty sleeping on the full moon.

These effects are not caused by ancestral heritage, they are physiological responses bought about by the reflected light of the sun from the moon (at least) that effects some but not other people in various ways.

No, my wife is not a lunatic she is a very intelligent, sensitive & rational person. :)

Not having had a certain experience ourselves doesn't mean that we can rule out the possibility of it existing in reality for many other people.


I tend to agree with you, but I also realize its very difficult to prove when we only have anecdotal evidence to go by. I have experienced it, but a skeptic can always invent alternative explanations. I just try to remain open to the possibilities and realize that even my own ideas can be wrong. Things we take for granted might actually be a false perception, including our understanding of reality,

[handy]

I tend to agree with you, but I also realize its very difficult to prove when we only have anecdotal evidence to go by. I have experienced it, but a skeptic can always invent alternative explanations. I just try to remain open to the possibilities and realize that even my own ideas can be wrong. Things we take for granted might actually be a false perception, including our understanding of reality,

When you have experienced something yourself it matters not a hoot what anyone else says. They can talk until they are blue in the face in an effort to convince you (& themselves for that matter) that what you experienced was an illusion due to whatever number of logical reasons that they present.

The actual truth of the matter is that it was a personal experience & is therefore a part of the collective human reality.

As far as people who base their view on the precepts of scientific knowledge in a fundamentalist fashion are concerned; that belief structure functions on the best theory available at the time, when a better working theory comes along it supersedes whatever stood before.

One way or another, we try to do the best we can with what we have at our disposal... ;)

[lordhaworth]

I have observed & sometimes felt the effects of the moon on other people & myself. I have seen a physiological effect, & as far as people talking about the light from the full moon being an issue as far as sleep is concerned, we sleep in a room that is insulated from same & my wife has been effected by the full moon all of her life. Her energy changes with the phases of the moon; before menopause she menstruated with the full moon phase (like so many other women) & had difficulty sleeping on the full moon.



I am not denying that you and others might experience this, that is absolutely fine. What I am questioning is why this might happen.

I would ask you to hypothesise as to why this might be the case?
How might light be affecting you if its not some inherited psychology (you said it yourself its reflected sunlight so you should be more afftected during the day, unless the moon affects the light?). Gravity... well I would like to make some rough calculations, but tidal effects are on a global scale - i would be hesitant in labelling tidal effects on the brain as significant (especially as you say that this happens mainly at night - the moon is there all the time).

[oedipuss]

Possible, but it will not be through a direct physical interaction (e.g. gravity) - it would be through some ancestoral heritage as previously suggested.

A synoptic paper question which I enjoyed was roughly something like "an astrologer claims that Jupiter is in an unfavourable position at the time of your birth: calculate the gravitational forces acting on you from Jupiter at its closet approach to earth (x m away, mass m kg (i gorget no.s)) and a nurse standing 1m away."

The answer you get is that they are roughly identicle

Doing the same for the moon in its most favorable position, I got about 0.0032 N of force exerted on a 80kg person. That is equivalent to the gravity of an object of 60kg at about 1 cm from that 80kg person (needed constants courtesy of wikipedia).It is far more significant than any planet (except the earth ofcourse) but still it's very very small. If the effect is physical wouldn't light and tides play a bigger role?

I'm not saying that there's no effect. In fact the moon is the only 'astrological' object possibly capable of having an effect. Other planets don't contribute at all, neither with light or gravity and constellations are out of the question entirely.

[lordhaworth]

Doing the same for the moon in its most favorable position, I got about 0.0032 N of force exerted on a 80kg person. That is equivalent to the gravity of an object of 60kg at about 1 cm from that 80kg person (needed constants courtesy of wikipedia).It is far more significant than any planet (except the earth ofcourse) but still it's very very small. If the effect is physical wouldn't light and tides play a bigger role?


i.e. your wife will have a bigger effect on you ;D

[Nick_Jinn]

Besides the Moon and the Earth, lets not forget about the Sun. Solar flares can knock out telecommunications. The Sun can certainly have an effect on us, even when we are not exposed to its light.

[lordhaworth]

Tides are a grav. effect (moon pulls tides on one side towards it = tide 1, and then it pulls the earth itself towards it more than the water on the other side of the earth = tide 2, so what you get is a bulge on each side).
A reasonable illustration:
http://home.hiwaay.net/~krcool/Astro/moon/moontides/TideAni.gif

So a tidal effect on your brain = no, since the gravitational affect on the side nearest the moon will not be significantly different to the side farthest from the moon

[Nick_Jinn]

I have no idea why or how it works. I only suspect that something or another is happening.

Are there energy fields, electromagnetism or what have you, that is more influenced by tidal forces than our dense materials brains are?

[Splashh]

Emmm... And forums? :)

[Nick_Jinn]

Forums definitely affect our sleep/mood/brains :popcorn:

[Superkoop]

I believe it does affect people, particularly women. Many women's cycles do follow the moon phase cycle, and if you don't believe me, just pay attention to when many women are acting a bit... different. It's pretty noticeable, so even if you're not married and you just have female friends, you will be able to notice what's going on. Then if you look at the moon, you will find that it's likely nearing its full moon stage. I have many female friends, including a mother and a sister... along with friends from all over the country. This happens with women all over the country, trust me.
It's also thought that men have a cycle too, however it's not quite as straightforward as the female cycle... obviously. But honestly I think this has more to do with the female cycle... when women are moody, men have less sexual activity, lowering their testosterone levels, which changes how the body works.

But I know (not just think, I've observed this) that women do follow the moon cycle, and if science doesn't agree, science can suck it because I know what I see.

[Grenage]

and if science doesn't agree, science can suck it because I know what I see.

Damn those scientists for needing more than "Well I think..."

[lordhaworth]

if science doesn't agree, science can suck it because I know what I see.

I never said I dont agree it has an effect - I said you cant tell me it is a direct physical one (such as gravity or special reflected light) as opposed to one built up through generations of phsycological and physiological development... Even jellyfish behaviour varies with a full moon, were nothing special!

[handy]

Possible, but it will not be through a direct physical interaction (e.g. gravity) - it would be through some ancestoral heritage as previously suggested.

I should have been more articulate in my reply, as I can't really see how the gravitational effect of the moon would/could effect people. That's not to say that it is impossible, I just don't know how it could be.

[lordhaworth]

... Even jellyfish behaviour varies with a full moon, were nothing special!

Actually this is probably to do with light or some such thing, but the point is that when we were lesser evolved creatures any cycle that would have been present involving the moon will possibly be manifes today...

[samalex]

It only affects me when it shines through my window keeping me up :) During a full moon with a clear sky, it lights up our bedroom.

[slackthumbz]

Astrology is idiotic nonsense. Astronomy is science.

</thread>

[samalex]

Astrology is idiotic nonsense. Astronomy is science.

I agree to a point. Astronomy is science for sure, but astrology can be very fulfilling as long as some common sense is used. Not unlike any blind faith where you invest your personal beliefs, morals, and 'rules to live by' on an unseen deity or outdated text, you have to use some real world common sense or risk becoming a fanatic.

[TheKramer]

But I know (not just think, I've observed this) that women do follow the moon cycle, and if science doesn't agree, science can suck it because I know what I see.

One TEENY problem...

the human brain is not some perfect logic and memory machine.

We mostly remember things we notice. We only notice things we pay attention to (and are able to take in through our very imperfect sensory systems). We then filter these (i.e., distort) through our past experiences. We then only consciously remember SOME of those things for longer periods. We then distort those memories further. We are also notoriously bad at statistical guesstimates and are poor at comprehending the idea of randomness and random chance.

So, as humans, we take in imperfect information, run it through an imperfect guessing system, can't usually take randomness into account very well (if at all), and then declare:

"I KNOW!" (And apparently, "screw you science for not agreeing with my perfect, unbiased knowledge of the world!")

This is why we use the scientific method and controlled experiments, it helps get around all of these biases.

[handy]

:lolflag:

One bias for another...

[TheKramer]

:lolflag:

One bias for another...

Thanks for the... um, detailed?... response.

If you are referring to the fact that individual scientists can have bias (because they are humans), then I'll wholeheartedly agree!

If you are trying to say that using the scientific method (correctly) does not help us reduce bias, I will sadly have to disagree (and perhaps cry in a corner).

[slackthumbz]

I agree to a point. Astronomy is science for sure, but astrology can be very fulfilling as long as some common sense is used. Not unlike any blind faith where you invest your personal beliefs, morals, and 'rules to live by' on an unseen deity or outdated text, you have to use some real world common sense or risk becoming a fanatic.

No. Astrology is the misguided belief that lumps of rock and gas, billions of miles away can be used to predict our futures or that they have some kind of tangible effect on our development as human beings. It's mind numbingly stupid as a concept and has no rational basis. To that end it's about as rational as religion. Just another ancient mythos that we, as a species, would be much better off without now that we've out grown it.

[TheKramer]

Can evidence exist on such questions? Each human is unique in more than simply personality. Perhaps some are affected while others remain untouched. Perhaps only people who are already unstable experience a change. The straw that broke the camel's back, as it is said.

Yes, it can. This happens all of the time in scientific studies.

If some consistent % of the population does NOT change, but the other % does change, it would still show in the data. If the % of the population that DOES change is very small, however, it would take a large sample size, but we can calculate how many people we need in a sample to have a reasonable chance of finding statistical evidence based on the likely effect size.

[lordhaworth]

The cavalry arrived a little late... but phew

[Nick_Jinn]

No. Astrology is the misguided belief that lumps of rock and gas, billions of miles away can be used to predict our futures or that they have some kind of tangible effect on our development as human beings. It's mind numbingly stupid as a concept and has no rational basis. To that end it's about as rational as religion. Just another ancient mythos that we, as a species, would be much better off without now that we've out grown it.



I did not in any part of my posts say that I believed in 'astrology' as a tool to predict the future. I think horoscopes are to be taken with a grain of salt for entertainment if anything at all. I am not talking about observing the planets as a form of divination. I am talking about some yet undiscovered but scientific influence that tidal/gravitational/EMFs/ect may have on living organisms....not necessarily in a way that will tell you that you will meet the love of your life if you where red on the 5th of way, but just a vague general influence.

Fun fact...Bacteria in a jar of water with sugars and amino acids will reproduce faster during the full moon.

Of course the orbit of the moon might also be a big influence besides how 'full' it is.

[lordhaworth]

To be fair we know so little about life you cant rule it out, well get round to these questions eventually. We need people to think and dream in thd meantime to form the basis from which any future analysis can be made. All arguments aside, good job discussing this @ everyone

[Dustin2128]

to test this theory, I propose we send all of our undesirables (CEOs, politicians, etc.) in a small metal box to interstellar space and monitor their behavior.

[Nick_Jinn]

I think its something that needs to be done....for science.

[handy]

Thanks for the... um, detailed?... response.

Sorry, I was very tired & had to go to bed last night.



If you are referring to the fact that individual scientists can have bias (because they are humans), then I'll wholeheartedly agree!

Naturally I agree that is true, we are far from perfect & I think that the objectivity required by scientists in their work is under a great many influences;- broad spectrum of professional, educational, intellectual, emotional & even religious in some instances.



If you are trying to say that using the scientific method (correctly) does not help us reduce bias, I will sadly have to disagree (and perhaps cry in a corner).

No I wasn't saying that. :)

I will say that the scientific method is an incredibly valuable tool that also has its limitations, particularly when we start to cross the line between objectivity & subjectivity.

A great book to read is called "The Taboo of Subjectivity: Toward a New Science of Consciousness" by B. Alan Wallace, Oxford University press 2000:

This book takes a bold new look at ways of exploring the nature, origins, and potentials of consciousness within the context of science and religion. Alan Wallace draws careful distinctions between four elements of the scientific tradition: science itself, scientific realism, scientific materialism, and scientism. Arguing that the metaphysical doctrine of scientific materialsm has taken on the role of ersatz-religion for its adherents, he traces its development from its Greek and Judeo-Christian orgins, focusing on the interrelation between the Protestant Reformation and the Scientific Revolution.

Wallace argues that the metaphysical principles of scientific materialism have long impeded scientific research into subjective states of awareness, including the nature of consciousness itself. Drawing on the writings of William James, Hilary Putnam, Augustine, and Indian Buddhist contemplatives such as Buddhaghosa, Asanga, and Padmasambhava, he presnts a theoretical framework and mode of inquiry into human consciousness that combines both extraspective and introspective methods of research. He also looks at scientists' long-term resistance to the first-hand study of consciousness, detailing the ways in which subjectivity has been deemed taboo within the scientific community. In tracing the impact of scientific materialism in modern scientific writing, journalism, and education, Wallace shows that the empirical facts of scientific research are often fused with materialistic interpretations and argues that we must take greater care in distinguishing between the two. In conclusion, Wallace draws on William James's idea for a "science of religion" that would study the nature of religious and, in particular, contemplative experience.

In exploring the nature of consciousness, this groundbreaking study will help to bridge the chasm between religious belief and scientific knowledge. It is essential reading for philosophers and historians of science, scholars of religion, and anyone interested in the relationship between science and religion.

[Nick_Jinn]

There are certainly limits to the scientific method. It is a useful tool but it is not completely philosophically sound. Science must make negative assumptions despite a ban on negative claims. Science operates from a paradigm of theories based on scientifically supported hypothesis. Science assumes that we exist in a known world that expands as we discover it. This worldview is not philosophically 'correct', but it is nevertheless useful for filtering out false claims.


Science is a useful tool, but it is not the only valid paradigm and in fact is not the most philosophically sound paradigm. Its a useful way of testing ideas but the perspective you must adopt is not 'truth' based but 'fact' based'. The world is truth based though even if our paradigm is fact based.

[sanderella]

In old times, people did believe that the moon (Luna) affected the emotions. That's why they were called lunatics. :KS