A compromise for linux game devs?

[Dustin2128]

for a couple of years now, linux has been ready for the desktop IMHO, except on one front: gaming. Now if you're running a classic game in wine, like master of orion 1/2 or the first starcraft, 99.99% of the time it'll run just fine. Your mileage may vary on newer games however. I just thought of this because it's insanely simple. Instead of rewriting the game from the ground up to work on linux, why not just optimize the windows version to work perfectly in wine? It might not be a perfect solution, but as I understand it, wine runs programs near or at native speed. Not to mention this would open up the ability to run it on the BSDs and any other OS capable of running wine (that is, almost every OS). Come to think of it, why not write games only for wine? It runs on a mac, so you have support there, and it it also runs on windows because, of course, wine is just a windows compatibility layer. Just bundle it with the game disc or something.

[j7%<RmUg]

This wont happen, because its not that simple, in SOME cases it could be easier to port an app to wine rather than to linux, but because wine is an emulator, it would just bloat the games that tried. Besides, whats wrong with all the cool games available for linux as it is? I mean, i far prefer Urban Terror to COD.

[chessnerd]

This actually has already been done several times. Google Picasa 2 was "ported to Wine" in order to create a "Linux-compatible" version. Picasa 3 (currently in beta) will be a native Linux app, however.

Porting to Wine is a fine idea, but I've had more issues with Wine than I can count. It doesn't always work with old games. It didn't work with Populous: the Beginning or Robert E. Lee Civil War General - two of my favorite Win 9x games - when I tried it. Caesar III worked okay. 1/3 isn't great.

Wine has a lot of work left. It is quite amazing what they have been able to do, and I really am rooting for the project, but native support will always be better. Give it some time. In a few years, you might see games that come as Windows, Mac, and Linux compatible (probably not BSD, though).

[Dustin2128]

This wont happen, because its not that simple, in SOME cases it could be easier to port an app to wine rather than to linux, but because wine is an emulator, it would just bloat the games that tried. Besides, whats wrong with all the cool games available for linux as it is? I mean, i far prefer Urban Terror to COD.
..... wine is a recursive acronym that stands for Wine Is Not an Emulator.
From wikipedia

Wine is not a full emulator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emulator), but is instead a compatibility layer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compatibility_layer), providing alternative implementations of the DLLs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic-link_library) that Windows programs call, and a process to substitute for the Windows NT (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_NT) kernel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernel_%28computer_science%29).
Anyway, wine might need a bit of work but it's an excellent addition to any system. I haven't experienced much/any bloat, for one. For instance on my old P4 machine with 1GB of RAM, and an old geforce 4, I could run world of warcraft (in wine) with all possible graphics options enabled, at 30-40fps with RAM to spare. Bloat IMHO is not a problem, because A. when properly configured, there's little or no bloat, and B. linux takes up 1/4 of the system resources windows does anyway, so even if there is bloat it's compensated.

As for games, sure there might be a few for linux, but I for one would like to buy new games off the shelf. And gaming is one of the major things holding linux back from the desktop today. How many people have you read in these forums who can't swap 100% due to gaming? Plenty.

[j7%<RmUg]

Right... compatibility layer for those of us who like being over-correct.

Also, most people find there is no need to actually buy any games, thats what the net is for. If you want to give me a speech about supporting the games for the future, go right ahead, but before you do, think about the fact that game devs dont like supporting linux because it costs them money, so why support people who are greedy?

As for the people who dont want to swap because of gaming, they are just too attached to windows games to consider any linux ones.

[chessnerd]

Also, most people find there is no need to actually buy any games, thats what the net is for. If you want to give me a speech about supporting the games for the future, go right ahead, but before you do, think about the fact that game devs dont like supporting linux because it costs them money, so why support people who are greedy?

That seems very hypocritical.

You are stealing games, which is quite greedy and selfish, and then accusing others of having greed. If calling gaming companies greedy helps you sleep better at night, fine, but it doesn't excuse breaking the law.


As for the people who dont want to swap because of gaming, they are just too attached to windows games to consider any linux ones.

That seems very narrow-minded.

First, you are assuming that everyone who games on Windows is a Windows fanboy that wouldn't move to another OS. This is untrue. There are plenty of hardcore Windows gamers who already use Linux.

Second, this isn't about converting people, it's about getting games for people who already use Linux (and BSD and Mac). If more come, great, but they don't have to. Games made for Wine will run just fine on Windows.

[Dustin2128]

Second, this isn't about converting people, it's about getting games for people who already use Linux (and BSD and Mac). If more come, great, but they don't have to. Games made for Wine will run just fine on Windows.
Exactly.

[j7%<RmUg]

What is this? team up on nisshh day?

Sorry if i dont meet your high standards, but i tend to have a low opinion of windows fanboys. Also sorry if i forgot to mention the hundred other things you seem to be correcting me on, i do realise that linux users use windows to play games, but i dont agree with it. People arent going to develop games for linux if every linux user used windows to play games.

Also downloading stuff off the net isnt illegal, if its on the net, you have the right to download it. Companies made patents and copyright to make it an offense in the first place, so what the hell are you defending them for?

EDIT: also, im not "stealing" the games, because:

1) i do not claim that the games are mine
2) im not selling them for profit(or at all)
3) i, in no way, profit from downloading them

[Dustin2128]

What is this? team up on nisshh day?

Sorry if i dont meet your high standards, but i tend to have a low opinion of windows fanboys. Also sorry if i forgot to mention the hundred other things you seem to be correcting me on, i do realise that linux users use windows to play games, but i dont agree with it. People arent going to develop games for linux if every linux user used windows to play games.

Also downloading stuff off the net isnt illegal, if its on the net, you have the right to download it. Companies made patents and copyright to make it an offense in the first place, so what the hell are you defending them for?
You're just implying that all gamers are windows fanboys. I just think that you're showing a bit of stereotyping, and using invalid or weak examples or arguments in a debate is never a good idea. Always expect your argument to be picked apart, sorry if I offended you or anything, that was not my intention. Also If you don't agree with linux users using windows to play games, then why are you objecting to my proposal for devs to develop for wine allowing all mainstream games to be played on any wine capable operating system, that is, every OS capable of compiling it? Sorry, but just because you're content with linux gaming in its current state doesn't mean there shouldn't be improvement, and it doesn't mean that others are content, even FOSS zealots like me who refuse to use windows at all.

Again, no offense intended in any of my posts.

</drama>

ALSO:Just because you don't claim the games are yours, and you don't profit from downloading doesn't mean that piracy is legal. In fact that is 100% unrelated to the crime.
</piracy>
Try to keep it within code of conduct please, I personally think this thread addresses an interesting issue and don't want to see it closed before the discussion really starts.

[j7%<RmUg]

heh, dont worry, it wasnt you.

Im just another linux zealot, and we tend to disagree with other linux zealots huh?

Just because i didnt say that non-windows users use windows for playing games, doesnt mean thats what i meant, i just didnt say that at the time.

So if i say ANYTHING that you disagree with, remember, its only my lowly opinion, we are all entitled to our own.

Once again, if i have caused anyone ANY problems, PLEASE just ignore me. Thanks.

[mickie.kext]

Just some thoughts:

If set Wine as defualt for games (or regular programs for that matter), Linux will never ever get native ports. History has proven this, in few occasions: OS/2 or Tru64 with FX!32. Companies just stick with Windows and say "you have your compatiblity layer" if you want other OS. Wine somethimes doesn't work as great as running app directly on Windows. So it is bad to rely on that.

If you target Wine, that doesn't mean that app will work on any Windows. Wine implements oldish Win32 API, and some games that work in Wine don't work in Windows 7. Which is kinda good for Linux, but developers will want to target Windows7 anyway.

Making real cross-platform games is not that harder or more expensive (when compared with making Windows only). It is in fact sometimes more profitable than sticking to Windows, and generally results in less buggy and more optimized code. Problems is, like in most cases, with Microsoft's... umm... lobbying, or more accurately bribing game studios to use DirectX only. When some studio use OpenGL, they have most of porting work already done. But Microsoft fought hard against that and they have even bought OpenGL patents (http://www.zdnet.co.uk/news/application-development/2002/07/11/3d-graphics-world-shaken-by-patent-claims-2118968/) from failing SGI years ago, so they can FUD people into using DirectX. Later OpenGL specs worked around patents, but Microsoft already set up DirectX as a must by then.

From technical standpoint, OpenGL has always been (and still is) way better. It is now controlled by Khronos group (http://www.khronos.org/), which is a non-profit organisation for standards. What should be supported and promoted is OpenGL, not Wine. Making games for Wine would not help much in the long run if DirectX is still the main 3D API. Also, if company don't want to port to Linux but uses OpenGL and other crossplatform technologies, it is still better chance that it work flawlesly in Wine.

[Dustin2128]

Just some thoughts:

If set Wine as defualt for games (or regular programs for that matter), Linux will never ever get native ports. History has proven this, in few occasions: OS/2 or Tru64 with FX!32. Companies just stick with Windows and say "you have your compatiblity layer" if you want other OS. Wine somethimes doesn't work as great as running app directly on Windows. So it is bad to rely on that.

If you target Wine, that doesn't mean that app will work on any Windows. Wine implements oldish Win32 API, and some games that work in Wine don't work in Windows 7. Which is kinda good for Linux, but developers will want to target Windows7 anyway.

Making real cross-platform games is not that harder or more expensive (when compared with making Windows only). It is in fact sometimes more profitable than sticking to Windows, and generally results in less buggy and more optimized code. Problems is, like in most cases, with Microsoft's... umm... lobbying, or more accurately bribing game studios to use DirectX only. When some studio use OpenGL, they have most of porting work already done. But Microsoft fought hard against that and they have even bought OpenGL patents (http://www.zdnet.co.uk/news/application-development/2002/07/11/3d-graphics-world-shaken-by-patent-claims-2118968/) from failing SGI years ago, so they can FUD people into using DirectX. Later OpenGL specs worked around patents, but Microsoft already set up DirectX as a must by then.

From technical standpoint, OpenGL has always been (and still is) way better. It is now controlled by Khronos group (http://www.khronos.org/), which is a non-profit organisation for standards. What should be supported and promoted is OpenGL, not Wine. Making games for Wine would not help much in the long run if DirectX is still the main 3D API. Also, if company don't want to port to Linux but uses OpenGL and other crossplatform technologies, it is still better chance that it work flawlesly in Wine.
Luckily the new opengl4 coming out soon is supposedly technologically superior to DX10/11 (whichever is current) and is slated to become the standard of the gaming industry. Even with a closed industry, open standards are the way to go. Native development for linux would be awesome because its free in every sense of the word. No matter your OS, haiku, HURD, BSD or otherwise, you could always setup a dual boot. Or if you didn't want to do that for some reason, you could easily setup a compatibility layer seeing as you have access to the entire source of the operating system. Development for linux is development for all open source OSes.

But seeing as that is unlikely to happen any time in the near future, I'll take silver performance on linux with wine over gold performance on windows. Even if they just give it a cursory glance to make sure nothing major is broken in wine, I will be satisfied.

Come to think of it, linux might be the OS of choice for game development for reasons in the first paragraph.
But then maybe that's just the idealist in me talking.

[neoargon]

This wont happen, because its not that simple, in SOME cases it could be easier to port an app to wine rather than to linux, but because wine is an emulator, it would just bloat the games that tried. Besides, whats wrong with all the cool games available for linux as it is? I mean, i far prefer Urban Terror to COD.
Wine Is Not an Emulator . It's a compatibility layer . WINE does not emulate hardware . It redirects the API calls to windows API to linux API . So the speed difference is negligible

[Dustin2128]

Wine Is Not an Emulator . It's a compatibility layer . WINE does not emulate hardware . It redirects the API calls to windows API to linux API . So the speed difference is negligible
Indeed.

[alexan]

Game developers could had done a very highly optimized distro of linux with only propouse: make run your game.
Example:

boot from usb flash (on usb there's the distro+game).. et voilà: the game run on linux and possibility on 80~90% of desktop pc around there.


- The game run without virus spyware.
- The boot of a regular linux distro (on a modern rig) it's about of 10sec.. if the distro is highly optimized for just boot a game... even less
- Gamers are pretty fine to reboot their rig to run a game (console): multitasking is not a primary need (thus it will be always available if the game developer want)
- hardware driver? for videogames? all you need is ATI/Nvidia: modern game require modern video bord, and both ati and nvidia driver are available.



With Windows game developers are entitled to do nothing:
- they can't modify the kernel (or use third party modified kernels)
- they can't distribute optimized version of windosws
- 50% of global share is Windows XP (directx9): your videogame will use obsolete API
- your "directx" game couldn't be ported to anything else but xbox (opengl: apple, mobile etc)
- Microsoft is your master: if you do something they like.. they will steal your job by thrusting their version in every new pc: see Valve with Windows Live or Google Chrome vs. IE9 (IE9 will forced with "security update" in every windows pc)






What need game devs?


Balls to get in real business... and stop to just follow the herd

[Dustin2128]

Game developers could had done a very highly optimized distro of linux with only propouse: make run your game.
Example:

boot from usb flash (on usb there's the distro+game).. et voilà: the game run on linux and possibility on 80~90% of desktop pc around there.


- The game run without virus spyware.
- The boot of a regular linux distro (on a modern rig) it's about of 10sec.. if the distro is highly optimized for just boot a game... even less
- Gamers are pretty fine to reboot their rig to run a game (console): multitasking is not a primary need (thus it will be always available if the game developer want)
- hardware driver? for videogames? all you need is ATI/Nvidia: modern game require modern video bord, and both ati and nvidia driver are available.



With Windows game developers are entitled to do nothing:
- they can't modify the kernel (or use third party modified kernels)
- they can't distribute optimized version of windosws
- 50% of global share is Windows XP (directx9): your videogame will use obsolete API
- your "directx" game couldn't be ported to anything else but xbox (opengl: apple, mobile etc)
- Microsoft is your master: if you do something they like.. they will steal your job by thrusting their version in every new pc: see Valve with Windows Live or Google Chrome vs. IE9 (IE9 will forced with "security update" in every windows pc)

What need game devs?


Balls to get in real business... and stop to just follow the herd
I totally agree with this^.
IMHO, the perfect game distribution would be something like this: you buy the DVD for your game. The DVD contains the game-optimized distro. The distro is light, something resembling damn small or SliTaz so it doesn't take much space off the disc used for the game (the OS being hopefully standard across the board) that's used for only one purpose: running the game. Because of that, the distro could be incredibly light, freeing resources for running the game. The instructions would be something simple enough for non-techies to understand, and the process would be automated. You stick the disk in your drive, you reboot your computer, it boots into the game. nm-applet or something for multiplayer. I, for one, would love it. It'd best be used after SSDs or flash ram became common though so boot-up speed would be less of an issue.

[Frak]

Luckily the new opengl4 coming out soon is supposedly technologically superior to DX10/11 (whichever is current) and is slated to become the standard of the gaming industry.

OpenGL is a great platform for engineering. It's a terrible platform for anything else when you compare it to DirectX. DirectX was created for media, OpenGL wasn't.



- The game run without virus spyware.
- The boot of a regular linux distro (on a modern rig) it's about of 10sec.. if the distro is highly optimized for just boot a game... even less
- Gamers are pretty fine to reboot their rig to run a game (console): multitasking is not a primary need (thus it will be always available if the game developer want)
- hardware driver? for videogames? all you need is ATI/Nvidia: modern game require modern video bord, and both ati and nvidia driver are available.

- Not a concern
- Not a concern
- The grand majority of gamers hate rebooting. Also, what if I want to run Fraps while I play? Linux can't do that.
- Not a concern


With Windows game developers are entitled to do nothing:
- they can't modify the kernel (or use third party modified kernels)
- they can't distribute optimized version of windosws
- 50% of global share is Windows XP (directx9): your videogame will use obsolete API
- your "directx" game couldn't be ported to anything else but xbox (opengl: apple, mobile etc)
- Microsoft is your master: if you do something they like.. they will steal your job by thrusting their version in every new pc: see Valve with Windows Live or Google Chrome vs. IE9 (IE9 will forced with "security update" in every windows pc)

- If your game requires a modification to a kernel, that's not a game, that's a rootkit.
- They don't need to.
- Serious gamers run the newest version of Windows.
- Not a concern
- Not a concern

[KiwiNZ]

What is this? team up on nisshh day?

Sorry if i dont meet your high standards, but i tend to have a low opinion of windows fanboys. Also sorry if i forgot to mention the hundred other things you seem to be correcting me on, i do realise that linux users use windows to play games, but i dont agree with it. People arent going to develop games for linux if every linux user used windows to play games.

Also downloading stuff off the net isnt illegal, if its on the net, you have the right to download it. Companies made patents and copyright to make it an offense in the first place, so what the hell are you defending them for?

EDIT: also, im not "stealing" the games, because:

1) i do not claim that the games are mine
2) im not selling them for profit(or at all)
3) i, in no way, profit from downloading them

Do not promote or encourage illegal activity on these Forums.

Thread closed