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View Full Version : Oi you! Yes, *you*, you stupid droid! Where's my bleeping martini?!



t0p
July 27th, 2010, 12:51 AM
In the 1950s and 1960s, folk were led to believe that a new age of leisure and prosperity for all was coming. We'd have free energy from fusion or the sun or something, robots would do all the arduous and repetitive work, and we would all work for maybe an hour a week and spend the rest of the time lounging round the pool drinking martinis mixed and served by hovering waiter-bots.

But it didn't work out that way, because universal prosperity and leisure isn't profitable enough for the corporate bosses. They prefer a pseudo-competitive world where labour is a commodity to be bought and sold just like corn and steel. So they maintain an archaic, 19th century style economic model, and add the fiction of "home ownership" as an added motivation to play the game by their rules.

The only way to break free of this ludicrous, appalling situation is to stop playing their game. Unfortunately, the road to robots serving free cocktails is littered with the bodies of our loved ones and lit by the flames of houses and factories burning to the ground. And that's a pretty scary scenario. Thus, the status quo is maintained.

Does that make any sense? Or am I just a loon?

CJ Master
July 27th, 2010, 01:03 AM
I think your drunk.

MooPi
July 27th, 2010, 01:17 AM
No I think you should get drunk and HAPPY :-)

t0p
July 27th, 2010, 01:35 AM
I think your drunk.

Nah, I've been warned about the dangers of operating a computer while under the influence!

Seriously though: you know how the people live in that movie Wall-E? The future was once thought to be like that (only without the chronic obesity and the need to live in vast space ships orbiting a toxic Earth). And it could be like that: if we mastered nuclear fusion or solar power, automation could make a life of leisure possible for all. The only reason why we can't enjoy leisure activities full-time is the need to get money for food and clothes and mortgage payments. If the money system was abolished and we used automation to provide for all.... heck, that could be some swell place to live! Wouldn't it be great to spend all day doing what you want to do, while robots did all the stuff that needs to be done?

Nick_Jinn
July 27th, 2010, 01:44 AM
I think the Spanish Syndicalists had the right idea....and the Jacobins had the right tactics.

chriswyatt
July 27th, 2010, 01:58 AM
I doubt the money system will ever be abolished. It was only the last week or two I was thinking how much I hate being stuck in this system, a system in which you have to comply otherwise you basically cannot live, a system where you have to do all this stupid paperwork and forms (I hate forms!). In a way I wish I could go go back to a simpler way of life, but that life would have its own set of problems.

I don't think things will get any simpler, new advances will bring newer problems. If we had robot slaves doing everything for us I think we'd see less meaning in our own lives, and I think it would corrupt us and make us depressed. We would just become completely lazy and useless, and I don't think people would be able to enjoy all the free leisure time because they'd just get bored of it.

RiceMonster
July 27th, 2010, 02:00 AM
Acid is fun.

MasterNetra
July 27th, 2010, 04:15 AM
I doubt the money system will ever be abolished. It was only the last week or two I was thinking how much I hate being stuck in this system, a system in which you have to comply otherwise you basically cannot live, a system where you have to do all this stupid paperwork and forms (I hate forms!). In a way I wish I could go go back to a simpler way of life, but that life would have its own set of problems.

I don't think things will get any simpler, new advances will bring newer problems. If we had robot slaves doing everything for us I think we'd see less meaning in our own lives, and I think it would corrupt us and make us depressed. We would just become completely lazy and useless, and I don't think people would be able to enjoy all the free leisure time because they'd just get bored of it.

Robotic labour would simply take care of the repetitive and technical tasks freeing us to take up art, research, inventing, exploration, and other such tasks (granted they would aid with the technical aspects in those areas too). Machines after all are far better with repetitive and technical tasks then we are anyway, its only logical they should take over such areas. There would of course still be human supervision.

Also of course the whole terminator and such movies are pure fantasy, I mean you would need to program societies machines to revolt. As for sentient AI safe guards can be built into it that prohibit such a occurrence.

Nick_Jinn
July 27th, 2010, 04:16 AM
Hell yeah it is. Mescaline and acid together is an especially good mix. Its good for the soul.


Anyway, I think that some kind of monetary trade system is important.....gift economies work very small scale within an extended family or somewhat inbreed tribe, but its not practical in an urban environment....in an urban environment "gift economy" = looting. In a tribal environment its more like sharing and dividing up basic chores.


In urban settings, maybe the problem isnt trade as much as that there is an elite that has a monopoly on the means of production....yeah in theory 'you can start your own business to', but in practice there are elites who control the flow of capital and own the patants on even the most intuitive and general methods of doing things....making you answer to them and allowing them to shut you out of the game should they so choose. Its not really a 'free market' at all. Its a heavily restricted yet pro-capitalist market....a highly controlled an unlibertarian form of capitalism.

The IWW had a good model where the workers operated within a federation system of local direct participatory democracies, where responsible positions were on rotation, where a credit union would fund the projects and ideas of any common joe who had been part of the union, where innovation could be initiated by the workers and not just the elites, where workers had a real stake in their business making them WANT to work hard to increase the value of their share rather than begrudgingly moving through the day on a messed up wage system. This in practice gave innovators access to the means of production.

This model has been used in modern times with the Mondragon Corporation with HUGE success. They are one of the largest and most successful companies of Spain, even during the recession and last depression. They have never had to lay off a single worker and the benefits are great as is the pay....when they are overstaffed they dont fire you....they send you back to school for free at half pay. People WANT to get laid off so they can return to a higher paying position. Half pay is actually enough to survive on.


I think that this organizational model would be a good one to emulate if society ever fell apart due to a global war or environmental global catastrophe....its locally organized from the bottom levels on up, so it doesnt require the kind of central cohesion that most city-states require to maintain order....the federation system is such that you can organize small scale first then network and maintain order rather than wait for help from a dysfunctional elite. This kind of organized self governance is what people will need to emulate if there is ever a global disaster.


And we should all keep some acid in our basement just in case times get really touch. You wouldnt want to witness a nuclear war without some.

RevengeOfTheToxicRodent
July 27th, 2010, 04:22 AM
Money is fine, people (aka greed) are the problem.

earthpigg
July 27th, 2010, 06:18 AM
I'll take the current system over one with uberintelligent AI.

Earth does, and ought, belong to Man.

Chronon
July 27th, 2010, 07:13 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic

Nick_Jinn
July 27th, 2010, 08:40 AM
Aristotle thought that man could finally reach his potential when our needs could be provided for by machines.....but I think greed would prevent the technology from being used for the betterment of man. Instead it would be used to enslave man for the benefit of the few.

Stancel
July 27th, 2010, 09:31 AM
I thought this was going to be about the Motorola Droid.

Robots aren't economically viable (under capitalism). You stay at home and the robots do all the work, robots give you martinis, but then you have no job and no money to spend. So the powers that be would have to make everything free of charge for that to work.

Yeah, I'm obsessed about robots....that's why I know that.

robsoles
July 27th, 2010, 01:42 PM
It is pointless to dream of a life where 'droids' do all the mindless tedium type tasks...

Life is nothing without struggle - examine the life of the leisurely and see that they either set themselves about some or other task (or series thereof) or simply fizzle out to die pointlessly.

This has been my two cents - what's your excuse?

MasterNetra
July 27th, 2010, 04:56 PM
I'll take the current system over one with uberintelligent AI.

Earth does, and ought, belong to Man.

Its a thing of pure ego to believe this. Earth belongs to no one and nothing, it is simply shared by all.


It is pointless to dream of a life where 'droids' do all the mindless tedium type tasks...

Life is nothing without struggle - examine the life of the leisurely and see that they either set themselves about some or other task (or series thereof) or simply fizzle out to die pointlessly.

This has been my two cents - what's your excuse?

Not really we are just adapted to "struggle" and are used to it. Besides machines would eliminate the need to perform the repetitive and mindless tasks of civilization, eg. construction, sewer cleaning, etc etc. Tasks such involving research, exploration, inventing, artistry, etc would still be performed by us even if machines also aid in the technical aspects of such areas. After all lets face it when it comes to performing technical and repetitive tasks, we suck. We are inconsistent (due to emotions and the fact we tire), we tire, and thus make errors far far more often then our non-organic counterparts. For now what we do have over the non-organic machines is the ability to be creative, eg arranging ideas and aspects of ideas and items to form new ones, and forming complex associations, of course even in time non-organic machines will be developed to a point where they can be capable of this as well.

Which case we can continue to be obsolete and let nature slowly take it course or we give our development a helping hand and artificially advance ourselves to keep up with our machines.
Before the cries against this come in, let me remind you a species is merely a label on a point of evolution/development we didn't start off like we are and we won't remain like this. A million years or so (perhaps even sooner) we won't look or be like this as our environment changes we will too in order to adapt to it. That said I am also for approaching our artificial advancement with care and caution and not half-haphazardly, after all we should make sure we don't royally screw ourselves up in the process.

koenn
July 27th, 2010, 09:09 PM
N... And it could be like that: if we mastered nuclear fusion or solar power, ...
well, that 'if' is still something of a problem, isn't it ? ...

Other than that, yes, you can see how humans have developed tools, then machines, then automation, ... so it's very likely that this trend will continue towards more machines and more automation. Whether androids will ever play a role, is questionable - if you could build a robot that can operate, say, a printing press, wouldn't it be more effective to build intelligence into the printing press so that it could operate unattended ?


If you can still find them, you might want to read Isaac Asimov's 'The Caves of Steel' and 'The Naked Sun'. Both play against the background of a society where robot labour plays an important role, and show how this could affect men and their society.

Shakz
July 27th, 2010, 11:25 PM
I think your drunk.

Well spoken drunk?

t0p
July 28th, 2010, 11:31 AM
A lot of the posters who disagree with me seem to take the position that automation will never free humanity because the elite will just use it to increase their own wealth and make the poorer even worse off (the robots will do the repetitive and arduous tasks, and the former labourers will be rendered unemployed).

All the above is perfectly true in a society set up like the current one. My suggestion is that we overthrow the current system and replace it with one more amenable to my aims. As Nick-Jinn mentioned earlier, the anarcho-syndicalists had ideas that might lead to the set of circumstances I want. Of course, anarcho-syndicalism in its purest form is utterly out-dated. But the germ of the system is still applicable. Do away with money, because we just won't need it. You want a new car, you get one for free. The free energy and automated labour mean that goods cost nothing.

As for the idea that people wouldn't like all this leisure time, they'd get bored and humanity would stagnate... I disagree. I know manual workers who like writing poetry or playing music or making ceramics... but they can't pursue these interests because they have to spend all day digging ditches or whatever. If robots dug the ditches, and the former ditch-diggers could get their material requirements for free, they could pursue their other interests. When illness stopped me from working every day, boredom soon set in. But then I used my free time to pursue my interests and life became very enjoyable. More enjoyable than when I had to work.

One last thing: lots of people feel they have to work because they have to make mortgage payments on the home they "own". But the truth is, they don't own their home - they've just got an insanely huge debt that will take 20 years of hard work to pay off. You don't own the land that your house is on anymore than you own the sky above it. Nearly all of us are slaves. I'm just suggesting we free ourselves. How we go about doing that: I don't know. Any ideas?

robsoles
July 28th, 2010, 11:40 AM
A lot of the posters who disagree with me seem to take the position that automation will never free humanity because the elite will just use it to increase their own wealth and make the poorer even worse off (the robots will do the repetitive and arduous tasks, and the former labourers will be rendered unemployed).

All the above is perfectly true in a society set up like the current one. My suggestion is that we overthrow the current system and replace it with one more amenable to my aims. As Nick-Jinn mentioned earlier, the anarcho-syndicalists had ideas that might lead to the set of circumstances I want. Of course, anarcho-syndicalism in its purest form is utterly out-dated. But the germ of the system is still applicable. Do away with money, because we just won't need it. You want a new car, you get one for free. The free energy and automated labour mean that goods cost nothing.

As for the idea that people wouldn't like all this leisure time, they'd get bored and humanity would stagnate... I disagree. I know manual workers who like writing poetry or playing music or making ceramics... but they can't pursue these interests because they have to spend all day digging ditches or whatever. If robots dug the ditches, and the former ditch-diggers could get their material requirements for free, they could pursue their other interests. When illness stopped me from working every day, boredom soon set in. But then I used my free time to pursue my interests and life became very enjoyable. More enjoyable than when I had to work.

One last thing: lots of people feel they have to work because they have to make mortgage payments on the home they "own". But the truth is, they don't own their home - they've just got an insanely huge debt that will take 20 years of hard work to pay off. You don't own the land that your house is on anymore than you own the sky above it. Nearly all of us are slaves. I'm just suggesting we free ourselves. How we go about doing that: I don't know. Any ideas?

Soz, I thought it was a game (actually, I meant my crap post but am now drunk enough to make sport of anything - you make some points but I won't admit whether or not they have merit in this state!)

Nick_Jinn
July 28th, 2010, 11:45 AM
Look at Startrek.....instead of spending their time focusing on control....there is SOME of that kind of Imperialist thinking, but it doesnt dominate every aspect of their policy like it does today....they are actually out there exploring for the sake of knowledge. Instead of destroying the only planet they have and promoting WANT instead of plenty because its more profitable to limit resources than to create abundance.....its just better when you can focus on higher things and more enjoyable things than struggling to survive while working for the man. There are plenty of things that would drive us to create. We wouldnt get bored.

Of course it would depend a lot on the kind of society we were living in while this kind of techno-industrial revolution took place....it could be amazing or it could be really ugly, depending on the people in power.....if we have people hellbent on control, even 'for our own good', you are going to have a highly invasive society where you cant even think the wrong thing without coming under the radar....if we have a society that values freedom and equality (yes both) then I think it could be just great.

gemmakaru
July 28th, 2010, 05:18 PM
Can't believe it took three pages to get to startrek!

Personally I was off work for three months following surgery and couldnt wait to get back to work. I did get really bored, though being bed bound for the first month and house bound for the rest may have stiffled my creativity.

What would people do with all that free time? Art and so one sounds great but how many would drink, stay in bed all day or get up to no good? If there were no money who descides who gets the best land and places to live?

I think some of the people like me, need work to feel human, to give their best.
Others wouldn't miss it at all but it may bring out the worst in them or the best of them.

koenn
July 28th, 2010, 05:36 PM
I think some of the people like me, need work to feel human, to give their best.
So you join Star Fleet, and boldly go ... - because you want to, not because you need the pay check.

(but watch what color shirt you get to wear )

earthpigg
July 28th, 2010, 09:47 PM
I've always felt that the human society depicted in TNG was one of the least realistic depictions of a possible human society in all of science fiction.

Within the Star Trek franchise, DS9 and TOS are far more realistic (but still a stretch).

I mean seriously...

Synthahol? The taste without the fun side effects?
Prime Directive? I lol'd.
No currency, huh? An all-invasive government that rations everything? And the expectation that no black markets will form? Yeah, have fun with that.

CJ Master
July 28th, 2010, 09:58 PM
Synthahol? The taste without the fun side effects?

Presumably it gave you a buzz like normal alcohol, without ever getting you drunk. There's something similar already today.

chriswyatt
July 28th, 2010, 10:05 PM
Yeah, I heard about something like that, forgot the name. Some scientist was working on synthesising a chemical that would give you the same buzz as alcohol but I guess a more alert buzz.

I'd rather drink about 5 pints of cider than take some pill with a weird chemical name anyway. Alcohol's a tried and tested drug.

NCLI
July 28th, 2010, 10:23 PM
A lot of the posters who disagree with me seem to take the position that automation will never free humanity because the elite will just use it to increase their own wealth and make the poorer even worse off (the robots will do the repetitive and arduous tasks, and the former labourers will be rendered unemployed).

All the above is perfectly true in a society set up like the current one. My suggestion is that we overthrow the current system and replace it with one more amenable to my aims. As Nick-Jinn mentioned earlier, the anarcho-syndicalists had ideas that might lead to the set of circumstances I want. Of course, anarcho-syndicalism in its purest form is utterly out-dated. But the germ of the system is still applicable. Do away with money, because we just won't need it. You want a new car, you get one for free. The free energy and automated labour mean that goods cost nothing.
We need to get together sometime, you and I think exactly alike :-p


Can't believe it took three pages to get to startrek!

Personally I was off work for three months following surgery and couldnt wait to get back to work. I did get really bored, though being bed bound for the first month and house bound for the rest may have stiffled my creativity.

Well yes, it probably did? Doesn't that ruin your point?


What would people do with all that free time? Art and so one sounds great but how many would drink, stay in bed all day or get up to no good? If there were no money who descides who gets the best land and places to live?
They'd be free to stay in bed all day if that's what they want, but I'd wager they'll get bored of that sooner or later.
As for "the best land" and "best places to live," those are definitely hard questions. The best answer I've come up with is an AI, which you would have to ask whether or not you could build the house you want where you want to build

Nick_Jinn
July 29th, 2010, 03:52 AM
or get up to no good?

Sounds like fun :)


But yeah, Star Trek is not in any way close to realistic at all. It shouldnt be the basis of anything other than they devoted themselves to exploration and knowledge rather than the kinds of concerns that dominate current politics and society.