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cerebrix
April 1st, 2006, 11:20 PM
The latest issue of TUX magazine is out. It's a great linux mag for newbies.

they just had a distro shootout and we took third behind mepis and mandriva ](*,)

https://www.ssc.com/tx/issues/StartDownloadTUX.php?issue=12&month=April&year=2006&id=60285

I invite everyone to take a look at the review so we can start thinking about what were missing and what we can do better.

stoeptegel
April 1st, 2006, 11:33 PM
A review or rating always is personal, and i know i do not agree with the review. I think that's about all i have to know.

localzuk
April 1st, 2006, 11:37 PM
One thing I notice they didn't look into is stability - Ubuntu is rock solid. Mandriva, however, is like a house of cards IME. I have never found Mandriva to be stable.

Also, they mention that Mandriva doesn't have perfect multimedia support (you have to use plf repo's for installing various things) in the free edition - which is not unlike our own distro and the excellent instructions on the wiki - or by using Automatix.

If it had been given the same multimedia treatment as Mandriva it would have resulted with a 4.66667 score - which if you calculate the actual value of mandriva, would make them exactly the same (except for that weird + for mobility in mandriva).

So, I would personally say that we are doing very well...

localzuk
April 1st, 2006, 11:38 PM
Reviews may be personal taste, however they do point out what people involved in the distro can easily miss. So they can be good eye openers really.

Alpha_toxic
April 1st, 2006, 11:45 PM
Praticaly the only place where ubuntu doesn't have a good score is "multimedia", because of the codecs. This is a not a big problem if you ask me.

christhemonkey
April 1st, 2006, 11:47 PM
Seemed to be extremely positive.
Though i did notice a slight bias towards kde :p

benplaut
April 1st, 2006, 11:56 PM
Seemed to be extremely positive.
Though i did notice a slight bias towards kde :p

slight? i sure hope that's sarcasm.

From my biased perspective, here's a DIRECT QUOTE from this issue:


But that is not the only type of people
GNOME is designed for. GNOME is also
designed for people almost like you who
need to change more than just the simple
settings. But these people do not want an
easy way to make these changes. They do
not like settings dialogs. They want to edit
the registry and edit configuration files.

...and it gets much worse, but Evince messes up the copying of that part.

GarethMB
April 2nd, 2006, 12:30 AM
I think the way that Ubuntu's media support was totally written off was shocking. With Automatrix we can have our media up and running in no time, the fact that MP3 and other royalty guzzling formats aren't supported by default is really not that big a problem.

cerebrix
April 2nd, 2006, 12:40 AM
I've emailed the editor and asked him to jump in on this discussion. I'd really like his input. Theres some things I don't agree with of course, and i'm probobly a little biased. But I admit were far from the "perfect" desktop linux distro. But I want us to get there. I want us to get there fast and make as much loud noise on the desktop as possible. Things like this are good for us all. It can drive us, push us to do better. So I think its a good thing at the end of the day. I hope he actually comes over here and rings in what he thinks. I welcome the input.

NeghVar
April 2nd, 2006, 01:21 AM
Unfortunatly all of them were reviewed by different people on different hardware so no comparison can be made... its like judging figure skating, u no sum1 is going to rok so u udge others slightly lower so that the person u no will do good gets a higher mark. Based on that alone the entire system is completely random. How do we know that the person who reviewed x distro dsidnt already have something for/against that distro.

If you want to provide a valuable comparison you must use some kind of constants, in this case the logical ones would be testers and hardware. Otherwise as I said its completely random with no bearing on anything. Although it was nice that we scored so high but we can't really be to happy since their entire method from start to finish rendered any potential results unterly useless.

nickle
April 2nd, 2006, 06:35 PM
Regardless of the rating, I would like to thank Cerebrix for drawing my attention to TUX Magazine... it is a good read...

Master Shake
April 2nd, 2006, 06:44 PM
Its not a bad magazine, but the constant Gnome-bashing / KDE love-fest really gets on my nerves..

nickle
April 2nd, 2006, 07:22 PM
Well Gnome does nothing for me so personally I don't see that as a problem...

Master Shake
April 2nd, 2006, 07:28 PM
If they're going to be as KDE centric as they are, then they should promote themselves as such.

Sheinar
April 2nd, 2006, 07:47 PM
I'm not a huge Gnome fan and I don't have a problem with them expressing their dislike for Gnome, but I do have a problem with them going "OMG USE KDE INSTEAD!!!!!" or something similar every time someone mentions they use Gnome. Even just mentioning they dislike Gnome so much is pointless. Everyone knows already. There really is no point in repeating themselves so damn much.

xXx 0wn3d xXx
April 2nd, 2006, 08:03 PM
Whatever this magizine says, Ubuntu is and will most likely always be my primary operating system and favorite linux distro.

Perfect Storm
April 2nd, 2006, 08:17 PM
Never read it and never will, to much Gnome bashing and all praise KDE. I don't mind the KDE stuff and I don't mind if they concentrate on KDE mainly and I have nothing against KDE. But it's utterly BS and totally unprofessional with the Gnome bashing fest.

Well...my curiousity made me downloading the Tux to see if it was changed....nope. Still same crap. Just look at page 15 as an example ](*,)

stoeptegel
April 2nd, 2006, 08:25 PM
Still same crap. Just look at page 15 as an example ](*,)

Indeed...
They talk about it like man who like or dislike cars. :-?
It's definitely something we don't need, not to mention that this is done in an unprofessional way too.

NeghVar
April 2nd, 2006, 09:06 PM
GNOME is designed for people who do not know about things like working directories. GNOME is for people who are so confused by options like working directory that if they see an option like this in a dialog, they become stiff from fear and maybe have a seizure and need to go to the hospital

I have never understood the whole debate between the two, Gnome does the job just fine for me... On a related note I have never had a seizure from having to make a choice, regardless of the DE.

I still think the entire rating system is garbage btw and that a single monkey typing on a single computer (we have to have constatnts otherwise it wont work) could produce a more useful comparison.

Master Shake
April 2nd, 2006, 09:13 PM
So if you are too stupid for KDE,
GNOME is perfect for you.:evil: :evil: :evil:

ComplexNumber
April 2nd, 2006, 09:19 PM
So if you are too stupid for KDE,
GNOME is perfect for you. if only the author had a grip on reality :rolleyes:
looks like i'm going to have to resign myself to the fact that i'm far too stupid for KDE :mrgreen:. hehe.

AndyCooll
April 3rd, 2006, 01:32 AM
I quite like the magazine but I too must admit that the Gnome bashing gets on my nerves too.

I don't mind the fact that they prefer KDE, and I even wouldn't mind if they made a conscious decision to promote KDE, but it shouldn't be at the expense of Gnome.

I personally prefer Gnome, and am pro-Gnome, but it doesn't follow that I think folk who choose KDE (XFCE, Enlightenment or whatever) have made the wrong choice. KDE is a good windows environment (I use a number of their programs in preference to Gnome ones), however Gnome simply suits my needs better.

:cool:

psoleko
April 3rd, 2006, 04:26 AM
Well for a magazine that claims to be about desktop Linux, they sure lack any references to any other desktop except KDE. I downloaded the first issue and thought "great a free Linux magazine in pdf format". Then I started reading it, reduce redeye with Digikam; burn DVDs with K3B; on and on. So I gave it a another shot figuring the Gnome apps would get there shot next issue, they didn't I'm by no means knocking it but I wouldn't exactly call the opinions of a KDE-centric mag reveiewing Ubuntu definitive. Thats like a Corvette magazine reviewing a Mustang...what do you expect them to say.

BarfBag
April 3rd, 2006, 04:53 AM
I tried Mandrivia and hated it. :-k

njf
April 3rd, 2006, 10:48 AM
In the end everyone just want to see what they like to see.

TeeAhr1
April 3rd, 2006, 03:34 PM
I read two issues, and the KDE wanking got old real quick. I can't even muster the interest to check this out, truth be told.

void_false
April 3rd, 2006, 04:04 PM
Read my sig :twisted:
I was pretty surprised to see Mandriva won the competition. :confused:

BTW why do you say that bashing something is unproffesional? It is not a magazine for proffesionals. It is magazine for regular users written in colorful language with humor. And even Linus says "use KDE" ;)

ComplexNumber
April 3rd, 2006, 04:19 PM
And even Linus says "use KDE"
yes, but linus knows little about usability and attractive/intuitive UI design ;)

krusbjorn
April 3rd, 2006, 04:21 PM
I couldnt care less what Linus says I should use. I use whatever fits my needs.

And that it is unprofessional doesnt have anything to do with the readerbase. Almost all magazines are read by people who arent professionals in the subject, but that doesnt mean that the magazine should be just as unprofessional as the readers. After all, you read the magazine to in one way or the other gain knowledge in the subject, and therefore you expect the magazine to have a more professional view than yourself.

ComplexNumber
April 3rd, 2006, 04:31 PM
all magazines have a bias, however slight, and it shows up in one way or another, but it is unprofessional for a magazine to blatently slate one DE whilst blindly promoting the other ...............unless, of course, the magazine is not intended to be taken seriously, and which probably accounts for why they have the views that they have.

mstlyevil
April 3rd, 2006, 04:44 PM
I decided to give KDE a try again. I reinstalled Dapper, but this time with Kubuntu as the desktop. Some of you KDE fanboys need to stop speading FUD about Gnomes lack of configuration. For one, if I want to add a program to start in Gnome I just go to System-->Preference-->Session Manager and just add the program by cliking the Startup Programs tab. In KDE, you have to edit the ~/.kde/Autostart directory by linking the program from /usr/share/applications. The other method is to set KDE to manually save sessions, but this does not work for all programs.

The other problem is getting your Trash, Home and Computer Icons to display on your desktop. In Gnome, I just open the gconf-editor and go to Apps-->Nautilus-->Desktop and select the icons I want displayed. Just to show the trash icon on the desktop in Kubuntu I have to go to /home/desktop and right click on the icon. Then I have to select "open with" and choose kate. Then I have to find the line that says
Hidden=true and change it to false and save the file. Then I have to manually create the other icons for the Home and Computer folders.

The last thing that does not make KDE as user friendly is the ability to add themes. Some themes are easily installable through synaptic, but others require quite a bit of work to manually install them. In Gnome you just go to System-->Preferences-->Themes and click install new theme. You then navigate to the tar file you downloaded, select it and it is automatically installed.

The point I am trying to make is that both KDE and Gnome have their problems with ease of use and configuration. Tux magazine and other KDE fanboy publications argue that KDE is much easier to learn especially for newbies. They also say you do not have to edit files to configure your system. The problems I just posted above prove that is just not the case. The fact of the matter is that no matter what DE you choose, you will have to get your hands dirty with the command line. Both Gnome and KDE have a long way to go to be completely user friendly for the average user.

mangz74
April 3rd, 2006, 04:48 PM
Seemed to be extremely positive.
Though i did notice a slight bias towards kde :p


If you haven't notice by now, TUX magazine are basically very pro-KDE. Even if you looked back at previous issues, most of the software reviews are KDE. Maybe its time Ubuntu sponsors its own magazine.

helpme
April 3rd, 2006, 04:57 PM
I decided to give KDE a try again. I reinstalled Dapper, but this time with Kubuntu as the desktop. Some of you KDE fanboys need to stop speading FUD about Gnomes lack of configuration. For one, if I want to add a program to start in Gnome I just go to System-->Preference-->Session Manager and just add the program by cliking the Startup Programs tab. In KDE, you have to edit the ~/.kde/Autostart directory by linking the program from /usr/share/applications. The other method is to set KDE to manually save sessions, but this does not work for all programs.
apt-get install kcontrol-autostart
Also, I'm pretty sure there's a shortcut for the autostart folder in konqueror.
And as for Gnome lacking config options. It is and most of the time I think that's one of the best things about Gnome.



The other problem is getting your Trash, Home and Computer Icons to display on your desktop. In Gnome, I just open the gconf-editor and go to Apps-->Nautilus-->Desktop and select the icons I want displayed. Just to show the trash icon on the desktop in Kubuntu I have to go to /home/desktop and right click on the icon. Then I have to select "open with" and choose kate. Then I have to find the line that says
Hidden=true and change it to false and save the file. Then I have to manually create the other icons for the Home and Computer folders.
Kubuntu problem, as they decided to follow the Ubuntu setup of not displaying these things on the desktop.
If you want them anyway, simply drag them from konqueror to the desktop.



The last thing that does not make KDE as user friendly is the ability to add themes. Some themes are easily installable through synaptic, but others require quite a bit of work to manually install them. In Gnome you just go to System-->Preferences-->Themes and click install new theme. You then navigate to the tar file you downloaded, select it and it is automatically installed.
Not true.
You are confusing themes with theme-engines and you'll also have to use synaptic or compile yourself if you want to install a new theme-engine in gnome.



The point I am trying to make is that both KDE and Gnome have their problems with ease of use and configuration. Tux magazine and other KDE fanboy publications argue that KDE is much easier to learn especially for newbies. They also say you do not have to edit files to configure your system. The problems I just posted above prove that is just not the case. The fact of the matter is that no matter what DE you choose, you will have to get your hands dirty with the command line. Both Gnome and KDE have a long way to go to be completely user friendly for the average user.
Nope, you won't have to use the command line and the "problems" you mentioned sure aren't ease of use problems for the average joe.
Also, please stop calling people fanboys, it's pretty insulting.

ComplexNumber
April 3rd, 2006, 05:30 PM
You are confusing themes with theme-engines and you'll also have to use synaptic or compile yourself if you want to install a new theme-engine in gnome. he isn't because the theme engines (ie styles), icons, colour schemes, and windecs are part of the themes. they are all what theme manager themes use.

also, 99% of the theme engines are already present in even kde-centric distros, so there is little need to compile any theme engines. i should know, i have virtually every theme from gnome-look and kde-look.

nickle
April 3rd, 2006, 05:50 PM
Oh man this rant on Gnome vs Kde is tiresome. ](*,)

I think it is great that we have more than one desktop option in Linux. Different distributions and different publications will all have their own bias, their own strengths and weaknesses; for example Ubuntu is heavily biased toward Gnome, but that doesn't stop me using it. No distribution or publication can satisfy all the people all the time. I think TUX is well written, informative and easily understandable for somebody of my limited technical ability.

At the end of the day, each to his AND variety is the spice of life... :D

Master Shake
April 3rd, 2006, 05:56 PM
Oh man this rant on Gnome vs Kde is tiresome. ](*,)

I think it is great that we have more than one desktop option in Linux. Different distributions and different publications will all have their own bias, their own strengths and weaknesses; for example Ubuntu is heavily biased toward Gnome, but that doesn't stop me using it. No distribution or publication can satisfy all the people all the time. I think TUX is well written, informative and easily understandable for somebody of my limited technical ability.

At the end of the day, each to his AND variety is the spice of life... :D

I agree, and I have used multiple desktops on Ubuntu..

My problem is that Mango's comment in this issue was very inappropriate.

If I had paid for this magazine, I'd ask for a refund.

mstlyevil
April 3rd, 2006, 06:11 PM
apt-get install kcontrol-autostart
Also, I'm pretty sure there's a shortcut for the autostart folder in konqueror.
And as for Gnome lacking config options. It is and most of the time I think that's one of the best things about Gnome.

Kcontrol-autostart is a development package and is not stable. It does not work on my system at all. There is no shortcut to the autostart folder in konqueror. There is one however in the kcontrol panel under System Administration-->Paths. It is still a hastle to set programs to autostart under KDE.


Kubuntu problem, as they decided to follow the Ubuntu setup of not displaying these things on the desktop.
If you want them anyway, simply drag them from konqueror to the desktop.

You are partially correct that it is a Kubuntu problem. Dragging the icons from conqueror does create a link but it does not put the icon itself on the desktop. It instead leaves a executable folder. I also had problem with KDE under Suse when I wanted to get rid of icons on the desktop, I had to delete them. When I decided I wanted them back, I had the same problems in recreating them. It is just much easier to do this in Gnome.


Not true.
You are confusing themes with theme-engines and you'll also have to use synaptic or compile yourself if you want to install a new theme-engine in gnome.

Complexnumber did a excellent job clarifying my position on this.


Nope, you won't have to use the command line and the "problems" you mentioned sure aren't ease of use problems for the average joe.

If you use Linux for any amount of time, you are going to have to touch the command line. To get root permissions to autostart applications, you will need the command line. To install certain themes off of kde-look.org, you will have to touch the command line.

So you are telling me that an average joe will not want to easily change themes, add or remove icons from his desktop at will and easily set certain programs to execute upon startp? These are ease of use problems for the average joe. In fact, I am a average joe computer user and I hate the fact that simple configuration options have to be so difficult to perform. Gnome makes these type of things easy. Granted, there are things that are just as or more difficult in Gnome, like printer settings. Both desktop enviroments have their weaknesses in these areas.


Also, please stop calling people fanboys, it's pretty insulting.


I call it as I see it. A fanboy is someone who is unable to see the flaws in whatever it is they prefer but has no problems bashing someone elses preference. Tux is a KDE fanboy magazine and I will not apologise for speaking the truth. I also call out Mac, Linux, Gnome, and Windows fanboys. Everything has it's strengths and weaknesses. These people need to learn that nothing is right for everyone and that peoples needs and preferences vary.

htinn
April 3rd, 2006, 06:13 PM
Well, if we're comparing distros, let's get some more data:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Linux_distros
http://www.linuxforums.org/reviews/overview_of_the_ten_major_linux_distributions.html

NeghVar
April 3rd, 2006, 06:14 PM
BTW why do you say that bashing something is unproffesional?

The reason is a new user joins up and deicdes to check out various resources, low and behold he stumbles across this, and bang right out the door he is being insulted for not knowing everything there is to know. Thats a great idea for a magazine catering to non-pros, if they want to support it fine, show comparisons that dont involve sensless bashing, it really turns people away.

This here is why Linux isn't considered as profensional as some of the other options. Its pointless and it hurts the community as a whole because a few morons decide that there way is the only way available and all those that believe differently are going to the DE version of hell...

mstlyevil
April 3rd, 2006, 06:16 PM
The reason is a new user joins up and deicdes to check out various resources, low and behold he stumbles across this, and bang right out the door he is being insulted for not knowing everything there is to know. Thats a great idea for a magazine catering to non-pros, if they want to support it fine, show comparisons that dont involve sensless bashing, it really turns people away.

This here is why Linux isn't considered as profensional as some of the other options. Its pointless and it hurts the community as a whole because a few morons decide that there way is the only way available and all those that believe differently are going to the DE version of hell...

Well said. I couldn't agree with you more.

Al3xanR0
April 3rd, 2006, 06:40 PM
(yarn) Boring!!!! Use whatever you want, then right about why you like using whatever you like to use, and why you recommend why everyone else in opensourcedom should use what you like to use versus what they like to use and then end result will be that you will be on equal footing with the well intentioned however, over zealous troll (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=58017). Or use whatever you like and leave it at that. After all it is your CHOICE.

NeghVar
April 3rd, 2006, 07:13 PM
Oh I have no problem with people using kde, heck I encourage it, means that when I check out the Gnome forums there aren't so many posts to go through lol. But the point that alot of us are trying to make is that marketing to newbies or intermediates then insulkting them on every second page is not the way to make the community look more profensional.

Linux won't rule the world but if we don't start being more profension to people who are already using it then how can we possible think that we can encourage new users.

njf
April 3rd, 2006, 07:18 PM
Man, I really wish the magazine is pro gnome instead, so you won't see so much rant here.

Perfect Storm
April 3rd, 2006, 07:50 PM
Man, I really wish the magazine is pro gnome instead, so you won't see so much rant here.

No, I wish that the magazine is independent regards to desktop enviroment. But I think it's nearly impossible if the group its aiming at is newbie, to not confusing I guess.

The rant isn't against KDE, it's rant against the continously gnome bashing.

helpme
April 3rd, 2006, 09:19 PM
You are partially correct that it is a Kubuntu problem. Dragging the icons from conqueror does create a link but it does not put the icon itself on the desktop. It instead leaves a executable folder.

What's an executable folder supposed to be?
IIRC, it's simply a link that will start your file manager if you click on it.



I also had problem with KDE under Suse when I wanted to get rid of icons on the desktop, I had to delete them. When I decided I wanted them back, I had the same problems in recreating them. It is just much easier to do this in Gnome.
Only for the two folders which have an option in the gconf-editor. And I really doubt fidling with the gconf-editor (that btw. doesn't even have a menu shortcut in dapper) is easier than dragging them to the desktop.



Complexnumber did a excellent job clarifying my position on this.

That's nice and all, but I still think he's wrong about it.



If you use Linux for any amount of time, you are going to have to touch the command line. To get root permissions to autostart applications, you will need the command line.

Who on earth needs or would want root permission to autostart applications?????



To install certain themes off of kde-look.org, you will have to touch the command line.

Really, not an average joe problem. With about any distribution he should have a lot of themes already available.
And while we are at it, think about how much harder it is to install and use new themes in windows, or OSX.



So you are telling me that an average joe will not want to easily change themes,

No, I'm telling you he already can.



add or remove icons from his desktop at will

Again, he already can.



and easily set certain programs to execute upon startp?

Again, he already can, though with integration into kcontrol this will certainly get easier.



These are ease of use problems for the average joe. In fact, I am a average joe computer user and I hate the fact that simple configuration options have to be so difficult to perform. Gnome makes these type of things easy. Granted, there are things that are just as or more difficult in Gnome, like printer settings. Both desktop enviroments have their weaknesses in these areas.

You are really making a grave mistake here in assuming that having tons of configuration options available equals ease of use. Nothing could be further from the truth.
And no, people who spend the time compiling some new theme enginge they found on the internet are not average joe users.



I call it as I see it. A fanboy is someone who is unable to see the flaws in whatever it is they prefer but has no problems bashing someone elses preference. Tux is a KDE fanboy magazine and I will not apologise for speaking the truth. I also call out Mac, Linux, Gnome, and Windows fanboys. Everything has it's strengths and weaknesses. These people need to learn that nothing is right for everyone and that peoples needs and preferences vary.
Suffice it to say that in my experience people who insist on calling other people fanboys most of the time are unable to see their own zeal and that calling people names is simply rude.

ComplexNumber
April 3rd, 2006, 09:40 PM
Complexnumber did a excellent job clarifying my position on this. That's nice and all, but I still think he's wrong about it. ok, lets have a deal. i tell you why i'm right. then you can tell me why i'm wrong.
you may have noticed that the theme manager theme is made up of colour scheme (this is usually provided), icons, windecs, styles, and maybe a screensaver and KDE theme or 2. well, those theme manager themes in kde are the exact equivelent of the theme.index file in gnome. it is 1 file that describes what a theme is made up of (ie what icons, metacity, gtk theme are used, together with the themes name). theme manager themes are nothing more than that. and if you haven't got the themes (ie the icons, styles, and windecs being pointed to in the theme manager theme), then the theme just won't work. it will fall back on the defaults. for the theme manger themes to work, you must install the corresponding icons, styles, windecs, etc for the theme manager theme to work. take the theme 'reluna' for example. that requires umicon(kde equivelent of gant) icons. if the umicon icons aren't already installed, then selecting 'reluna' in the theme manager themes section won't result in umicons being displayed. kde's theme manager themes are NOTHING without the styles, icons, windecs etc that have to be isntalled prior to installing the theme manager theme (the majority of them requiring compiling from source and/or running of various script that perform various actions. one particular large icon set called reinhardt-sketch icons requires the user to insall inkscape before running a p2g2svg script which takes the better part of 2 hours to complete). try it and see for yourself.
like people say, theming kde is a total nightmare compared to gnome.

now its your turn to tell me why i'm wrong?

aysiu
April 3rd, 2006, 10:08 PM
My input in case anyone cares:

1. "average Joe" is maybe not the most appropriate term, since most "average Joe" types won't be using Linux in the first place (Gnome or KDE). However, most Linux users, even ones who aren't technically proficient, will venture to http://www.gnome-look.org or http://www.kde-look.org and try to install at least one or two themes or icon sets.

2. It is easier on average to install a theme graphically on Gnome. I say "on average," as, of course, it varies greatly, depending on how well the theme was packaged.

3. I am a KDE fan. Arguing it's easy to install themes in KDE or that installing themes being easy isn't desirable just doesn't fly.

I take issue with a lot of Gnome fans putting down KDE features as "confusing options" or "bloat," but I'll concede KDE's inferiority when it comes to theme installation ease.

helpme
April 3rd, 2006, 10:31 PM
ok, lets have a deal. i tell you why i'm right. then you can tell me why i'm wrong.
you may have noticed that the theme manager theme is made up of colour scheme (this is usually provided), icons, windecs, styles, and maybe a screensaver and KDE theme or 2. well, those theme manager themes in kde are the exact equivelent of the theme.index file in gnome. it is 1 file that describes what a theme is made up of (ie what icons, metacity, gtk theme are used, together with the themes name). theme manager themes are nothing more than that. and if you haven't got the themes (ie the icons, styles, and windecs being pointed to in the theme manager theme), then the theme just won't work.

But that exactly the same way themes work in gnome.
If you install some clearlooks theme, but the theme-engine isn't installed, the theme simply will not work. If you install a theme that uses a special iconset but the icon set is not installed, the default icons will be used.
So what exactly is the difference here?

ComplexNumber
April 3rd, 2006, 10:43 PM
But that exactly the same way themes work in gnome. no it isn't. there is no compiling from source necessary with gnome themes. there is a deb/rpm package called gtk-engines which installs almost all of them (ie they are present even on kde-centric distros). therefore, this means that no compilation is required. also, there are many many many themes which make use of the few engines. you will be hard pressed to find any distro that doesn't have all the gtk engines (eg cleanice, crux, pixmap, clearlooks, industrial, experience, bluecurve, etc) provided.
gnome themes merely require the user to drag and drop them on the theme section in the gnome control centre. there are only icons, gtk and metacity themes. many gtk themes come with the a theme.index file which is equivelent of a theme manager theme.

helpme
April 3rd, 2006, 10:53 PM
no it isn't. there is no compiling from source necessary with gnome themes. there is a deb/rpm package called gtk-engines which installs almost all of them (ie they are present even on kde-centric distros).

Come on, this is silly. Like I said in my first post, we are talking about theme-engines here, not themes and after all these posts all you can do is confirm what I said in the first place but try to give it a spin because there is a meta-package called gnome-themes, just like there are meta-packages for kde themes in every distro. So, no difference whatsoever.

*shakeshead*

ComplexNumber
April 3rd, 2006, 11:27 PM
correction, going back to what you originally said:


Complexnumber did a excellent job clarifying my position on this. That's nice and all, but I still think he's wrong about it. you still haven't told me where i'm wrong. to refresh your memory, this is where you said i was wrong:

he isn't because the theme engines (ie styles), icons, colour schemes, and windecs are part of the themes. they are all what theme manager themes use.

the difference between kde and gnome in the respect of theme engines is that all gnome engines are provided by default whereas only a small handful of kde styles are supplied by default. for example, do you know any distro that ships ANY of qtcurve, kung-fu, konx, baghira, phlat, liquid, pulsar, qindustrial, tiblit, comix, krisp, klassic, serenity, picturesque_grey, atomic, shodan, klearlooks, polyester, kurses, ballistik, eazel-blue, aqua-graphite in the core kde packages? no, neither do i. contrast this with the gtk engines that are all provided with gnome by default.

so what am i wrong about?

oblio
April 4th, 2006, 12:08 AM
After all this off-topic bickering about KDE/Gnome, just because some people were not really content with the outcome of the "review" in Tux Magazine: did anyone notice that Mepis came in at #2, very close behind #1 ?

So, back on topic....

Regards

mstlyevil
April 4th, 2006, 12:43 AM
What's an executable folder supposed to be?
IIRC, it's simply a link that will start your file manager if you click on it.

Ok, let me make it more clear. I don't just want a folder on my desktop but the actual icons. I said executable to make it a little more clear what I was talking about.


Only for the two folders which have an option in the gconf-editor. And I really doubt fidling with the gconf-editor (that btw. doesn't even have a menu shortcut in dapper) is easier than dragging them to the desktop.


You are wrong again. There are four icons. These are Home, Computer, Wastebasket and Documents. If you want to add the configuration editor to the menu go to the Alacarte Menu Editor under Applications-->Accessories. This is a Ubuntu specific problem and they just need to keep this stuff on the menu and let users decide what to remove.


That's nice and all, but I still think he's wrong about it.

He is dead on. My favorite icon set is exqusite. In Gnome I just download the tar and install it with the themes manager. In KDE, I have to extract the file and run a script before it will install. Which is easier? It is easier to install and change themes in Gnome. But why argue about it. We are not going to change each others minds on this particular issue.


Who on earth needs or would want root permission to autostart applications?????


Sigh. You need Sudo or root to link these two file together to get a program to autostart. You can not do it without root or sudo permissions.


Really, not an average joe problem. With about any distribution he should have a lot of themes already available.
And while we are at it, think about how much harder it is to install and use new themes in windows, or OSX.

Lets see here, in Windows it is click, click, click and it is installed. The same goes for Mac. Someone just has to produce third party themes. Besides this about average linux users who have come to epect more of their operating system when it comes to themes. I also want to reference to aysiu's previous post.


"average Joe" is maybe not the most appropriate term, since most "average Joe" types won't be using Linux in the first place (Gnome or KDE). However, most Linux users, even ones who aren't technically proficient, will venture to http://www.gnome-look.org or http://www.kde-look.org and try to install at least one or two themes or icon sets.



Again, he already can, though with integration into kcontrol this will certainly get easier.


That is the problem. It is not intergrated with Kcontrol so it is not easy to do on every distro. Until it is better intergrated this will remain a huge problem for the average joe Linux user.


You are really making a grave mistake here in assuming that having tons of configuration options available equals ease of use. Nothing could be further from the truth.
And no, people who spend the time compiling some new theme enginge they found on the internet are not average joe users.

I never said that having tons of configuration options equal ease of use. KDE has too many configuration options at times. In the process they leave out the truly impotant ones. Gnome has too few configuration options, but they do a better job of making the ones availble for basic stuff.

I don't have to compile jack to add new themes to Gnome. You are still confusing windows borders and icons for theme engines. These are easier to install in Gnome but this is the last time I will address this particular issue since you continue to confuse the two.


Suffice it to say that in my experience people who insist on calling other people fanboys most of the time are unable to see their own zeal and that calling people names is simply rude.

Fanboy is a descriptive term, not just a name. Since I like both KDE and Gnome it is hard to equate my use of the word with my zeal of Gnome. I will point out Gnomes problems in a heartbeat also.

The reason why I pointed out these things in the first place was to counter some of the arguments the fanboys made in the issue of TUX. They were not pointed out to put down KDE as inferior but to show that KDE has some of the very same issues they accuse Gnome of having. Both are great DE's. Both have their strengths and weaknesses. In an Idea world we would have a DE that gave us the best of both KDE and Gnome and left out the worst of both. In fact, if it is ever created, they should just call it Zen. :mrgreen:

helpme
April 4th, 2006, 08:55 AM
Ok, let me make it more clear. I don't just want a folder on my desktop but the actual icons. I said executable to make it a little more clear what I was talking about.

I still don't get what the difference might be. You do get a folder with the actual icons, so?



You are wrong again. There are four icons. These are Home, Computer, Wastebasket and Documents.

I'm so sorry. So it's four special folder, not only two. Again, I'm sorry.



If you want to add the configuration editor to the menu go to the Alacarte Menu Editor under Applications-->Accessories. This is a Ubuntu specific problem and they just need to keep this stuff on the menu and let users decide what to remove.

I know how to ad it, but that was not my point.



He is dead on. My favorite icon set is exqusite. In Gnome I just download the tar and install it with the themes manager. In KDE, I have to extract the file and run a script before it will install. Which is easier? It is easier to install and change themes in Gnome. But why argue about it. We are not going to change each others minds on this particular issue.

No, he's dead wrong about it. He actually admited now that themes rely on theme-engines in Gnome and in KDE and that these theme-engines need to be installed either by compiling them, or by installing distribution specific packages. This is exactly what I said from the beginning.

He only now argues that Gnome is better, because the gnome-engines are normally packaged for every distribution, while there are a lot of KDE engines that aren't, or so he claims. What it boils down to is saying that theming in Gnome is easier, because there are less theme-engines for it. Not very convincing if you ask me.

About the icon set. Installing an icong set in Gnome, or in KDE is exactly the same. There are however some icon sets on kde-look that indeed require you to build them beforehand. This however does have nothing to do with KDE, they are simply incomplete iconsets shiped with a script that generates a complete one to save bandwith. That's all.



Sigh. You need Sudo or root to link these two file together to get a program to autostart. You can not do it without root or sudo permissions.

Again, I'm sorry, but I'm unable to understand what you are talking about. What files do you want to link together that require root? Could you give an example.



Lets see here, in Windows it is click, click, click and it is installed. The same goes for Mac. Someone just has to produce third party themes. Besides this about average linux users who have come to epect more of their operating system when it comes to themes. I also want to reference to aysiu's previous post.

And how is that different for Linux????



That is the problem. It is not intergrated with Kcontrol so it is not easy to do on every distro. Until it is better intergrated this will remain a huge problem for the average joe Linux user.

As I said, there's certainly room for improvement, but it still isn't as bad by far as you try to make it.



I don't have to compile jack to add new themes to Gnome. You are still confusing windows borders and icons for theme engines. These are easier to install in Gnome but this is the last time I will address this particular issue since you continue to confuse the two.

No, you are confusing the two. To install a theme in KDE, you don't need to compile anything. To install a theme-engine, you might have to if there isn't a package available for your distro. Same goes for Gnome.

cosborn72
April 4th, 2006, 12:22 PM
Well for a magazine that claims to be about desktop Linux, they sure lack any references to any other desktop except KDE.

Every issue of Tux has an article on using lightweight desktops, so you can't say it is totally KDE based.

Also, much (about half) of the Gnome bashing occurs in Mango Parfait's article. She is intentional confrontational and opinionated (and very entertaining).

BoyOfDestiny
April 4th, 2006, 01:31 PM
Well read the review, well actually just the part about Ubuntu.

What I don't get is...
If you have one person do one review... What's the point in comparing the arbitrary "rank".

I would have prefered to see those 3 people review each distro.
Then see the ratings side by side.

Try it with anything. Ask 3 different people what their favorite flavor of ice cream is. If one says they are fond of vanilla, one says they greatly like choclate, and the last says they love strawberry.

I harldy see how that makes vanilla the least favorite overall...

ComplexNumber
April 4th, 2006, 03:00 PM
No, he's dead wrong about it. He actually admited now that themes rely on theme-engines in Gnome and in KDE and that these theme-engines need to be installed either by compiling them, or by installing distribution specific packages. This is exactly what I said from the beginning.

He only now argues that Gnome is better, because the gnome-engines are normally packaged for every distribution, while there are a lot of KDE engines that aren't, or so he claims. What it boils down to is saying that theming in Gnome is easier, because there are less theme-engines for it. Not very convincing if you ask me.

About the icon set. Installing an icong set in Gnome, or in KDE is exactly the same. There are however some icon sets on kde-look that indeed require you to build them beforehand. This however does have nothing to do with KDE, they are simply incomplete iconsets shiped with a script that generates a complete one to save bandwith. That's all. does you username say something about you or what? :mrgreen:. seriously, go away and install all the themes and icons for gnome and kde, then you can see the situation as it really is. i'm not going to bother explaining it to you yet again. after installing all the themes from gnome-look and kde-look, if you then turn around and say(with a straight face) that theming is easier in kde, then i am President Bush.






Also, much (about half) of the Gnome bashing occurs in Mango Parfait's article. She is intentional confrontational and opinionated (and very entertaining).
i thought that at first, but then i read the rest and realised that it really is a kde-loving gnome-bashing mag.

freedomforme
April 4th, 2006, 03:04 PM
Well it is a good overview and general info about those distros but not much as far as a review or comparison. They should of each had to install and review a couple distros to at least make it a bit more subjective.

helpme
April 4th, 2006, 05:32 PM
does you username say something about you or what? :mrgreen:. seriously, go away and install all the themes and icons for gnome and kde, then you can see the situation as it really is. i'm not going to bother explaining it to you yet again. after installing all the themes from gnome-look and kde-look, if you then turn around and say(with a straight face) that theming is easier in kde, then i am President Bush.

Hello Mr. President.
There's no need to resort to personal attacks just because you were wrong about something as unimportant as themeing in Gnome and KDE.

mrgnash
April 4th, 2006, 05:38 PM
I love that helpme always provides the voice of reasons in discussions like this :)

I honestly do not know where people are coming from when they claim that theming in KDE is a 'nightmare' in comparison to Gnome. To put it plainly, I'm an idiot, and yet I haven't encountered any difficulties while installing themes thus far; in fact, if anything I actually found it slightly less confusing than the same operation in Gnome.

And what's with this business about hiding desktop icons? If you ask me, right clicking on the desktop and toggling the option to display or not display said icons in the 'behaviour' tab is a lot easier than messing around with gconf editors and whatnot, not to mention far more intuitive.

Lastly. KDE's session-saver feature a-u-t-o-m-a-t-i-c-a-l-l-y takes care of all my startup applications. So once again, I fail to see the problem here :confused:

ComplexNumber
April 4th, 2006, 05:54 PM
helpme
give me a description of how you theme gnome and how you theme kde, using examples where necessary? oh, and don't forget to mention how you would go about theming system wide and where you would put them various elements(eg colour schemes, styles, windec, icons, etc) if you were to do this. then people will know just how wrong you are and how little you know about this issue.



To put it plainly, I'm an idiot, and yet I haven't encountered any difficulties while installing themes thus far; in fact, if anything I actually found it slightly less confusing than the same operation in Gnome. the same question to you, sir.

ShanghaiTeej
April 5th, 2006, 06:02 AM
Wow, all this about which DE installs themes easier? Well, at least nobody has thrown any cyberpunches......yet.

mrgnash
April 5th, 2006, 12:27 PM
helpme
give me a description of how you theme gnome and how you theme kde, using examples where necessary? oh, and don't forget to mention how you would go about theming system wide and where you would put them various elements(eg colour schemes, styles, windec, icons, etc) if you were to do this. then people will know just how wrong you are and how little you know about this issue.

the same question to you, sir.

An opportunity to prove 'how wrong [ I ] am, and how little [ I ] know' yay! :D

Well here's how I install a theme in KDE:

1. Download the theme file.
2. Start the theme manager: "Control center -> Look and Feel -> Themes"
3. Add the new theme file xxxxx.kth
4. Choose the new theme in the list and click "Apply"


I can't tell you how I install a theme in Gnome since (surprise surprise), Gnome is broken.

ComplexNumber
April 5th, 2006, 01:58 PM
An opportunity to prove 'how wrong [ I ] am, and how little [ I ] know' yay! :D

Well here's how I install a theme in KDE:

1. Download the theme file.
2. Start the theme manager: "Control center -> Look and Feel -> Themes"
3. Add the new theme file xxxxx.kth
4. Choose the new theme in the list and click "Apply"


I can't tell you how I install a theme in Gnome since (surprise surprise), Gnome is broken. :mrgreen:
now why am i not surprised that you have got it all wrong ;). btw did you notice that 1 or more elements(eg icons, style, windec, etc) of the theme manager theme didin't change at all? 8-)
also, if you have never themed gnome, then you can't make a realistic comparison.
read my post 46 in this thread and learn where you were going wrong and why you had the unorthodox opinion that you had :)

Nixed0
April 5th, 2006, 04:14 PM
I skim through TUX mag, but that's about it. If kubuntu was the parent project they would have rated the project #1 Heavy weight.

To rate a GNU/Linux distro at "1" in multimedia because of the lack of non OSS software is crazy, and unfair.

To top it off, they are all rated at a max of 5 for price... Linspire is $59.95 CD or $49.95, and to justify the 5 they compare it to Windows XP.

Unfair, biased and completely useless.

mrgnash
April 5th, 2006, 05:37 PM
also, if you have never themed gnome, then you can't make a realistic comparison.

I didn't say that I have never themed Gnome, merely that Gnome is currently broken. Without rehearsing the procedure for myself I cannot inform you how I would go about it, because I have used Gnome so seldom that the mechanics of this and that aren't xeroxed into my nuerons just yet ;)

In any case I wasn't going for some big 'realistic' or 'objective' comparison, just describing my experience as the 'average joe' user. And yes, I do notice that some of the elements don't change, but in those cases I just extract the revelevant contents to the designated directories and that seems to do the trick. Not overly laborious or complex in my opinion.

aysiu
April 5th, 2006, 05:46 PM
System > Preferences > Themes

Drag and drop .tar.gz to Theme Manager window.
That's the procedure, and it's always worked for me.

And I am a KDE fan. I just don't believe easy theming is one of the selling points for KDE. Just look at KDM themes.

ComplexNumber
April 5th, 2006, 06:08 PM
I didn't say that I have never themed Gnome, merely that Gnome is currently broken. no more than kde is. or are you talking specifically about the state of your own desktop?

the truth remains that gnome is considerably easier to theme.

mstlyevil
April 5th, 2006, 06:18 PM
I didn't intend to start a themeing war on KDE vs Gnome. My original post was in response to some comments made about Gnome in Tux magazine. The point I was trying to make was that KDE is not perfect either and has some usability issues of it's own. Both Gnome and KDE are fine DE's and both have their strengths and weaknesses. It is ok to prefer one over another but it is not ok to call people morons or stupid for prefering one over the other. This is exactly what the columnist in Tux Magazine were doing and it was pretty pathetic.

I could care lees what Tux magazine rates Ubuntu and do not take anything they print seriously. If they would quit bashing Gnome users and just report on the benefits of thier favorite DE, then I would take them more serious.

TeeAhr1
April 5th, 2006, 07:08 PM
Way to hijack the thread with this idiocy, guys. It almost got interesting there for a second, good thing you were here to put a stop to that.

mrgnash
April 6th, 2006, 12:46 AM
no more than kde is. or are you talking specifically about the state of your own desktop?

the truth remains that gnome is considerably easier to theme.

My own desktop.

*points to the 'Dapper Drake Testing User* <---- :)

akiro.yamamoto
April 6th, 2006, 04:42 AM
KDE and GNOME are two of the best DEs available, however they are not perfect.
Even the supposedly highly rated XP interface is most definitely not perfect....
I like GNOME you like KDE ????
WHO CARES!!!!!?????
If you like KDE you go wih that and allow me to make my own choices.
I am disappointed in TUX magazine, for there constant ridicule of not only anything GNOME but of GNOME users as well...
It smacks of elitism...
Of course it could all be a marketing ploy, to help generate interest in the mag..
I guess it's a little naive to expect an unbiased view from ANY media (everyone has an axe to grind) but it saddens me just the same.

ShanghaiTeej
April 6th, 2006, 06:44 AM
KDE and GNOME are two of the best DEs available, however they are not perfect.
Even the supposedly highly rated XP interface is most definitely not perfect....
I like GNOME you like KDE ????
WHO CARES!!!!!?????
If you like KDE you go wih that and allow me to make my own choices.
I am disappointed in TUX magazine, for there constant ridicule of not only anything GNOME but of GNOME users as well...
It smacks of elitism...
Of course it could all be a marketing ploy, to help generate interest in the mag..
I guess it's a little naive to expect an unbiased view from ANY media (everyone has an axe to grind) but it saddens me just the same.

Well, I don' think it even could be a marketing ploy. I don't think TUX magazine is as diabolical as most people make out. Though, I haven't really read each magazine from front to back. Sometimes editors and writers have certain biases, whether full blown or minimalistic in nature. Either write to TUX or dismiss it as the filth you think it is. We are talking about free open source software here, not unfair oil companies vs. environmentally friendly and cuddly hippies.

mrtaber
April 6th, 2006, 07:03 AM
Well, personally, I think that Nicolas Petreley (the Editor-in-Chief of Tux) IS Mango Parfait. He's having a nice time needling us Gnome users, all the while using our outrage to drum up readership for his magazine. He also claims that 70% of all his readership use KDE. In that case, one would expect to see an overwhelming number of KDE-centric articles, just to reflect the interests of his readership.

He's a long-time Gnome-hater, as you can read in his now-infamous Computer Week article, "Living Down to a Low Standard." You'll find a link to that op-ed piece here (http://www.computerworld.com/softwaretopics/software/story/0,10801,92934,00.html). (Note: the article was published May 10, 2004.)

Right now, I prefer Gnome. I don't care for KDE (please note that I said 'prefer'--I didn't insist that one was better than the other). I'll revisit my decision when KDE 4.0 comes out. It should be quite interesting.

Mark :)

Edited to note the date that NP's article was published.

aysiu
April 6th, 2006, 07:09 AM
He's a long-time Gnome-hater, as you can read in his now-infamous Computer Week article, "Living Down to a Low Standard." You'll find a link to that op-ed piece here (http://www.computerworld.com/softwaretopics/software/story/0,10801,92934,00.html). He may feel the same way now (I don't know), but FYI--that article was written almost two years ago.

ShanghaiTeej
April 6th, 2006, 07:18 AM
Well, personally, I think that Nicolas Petreley (the Editor-in-Chief of Tux) IS Mango Parfait. He's having a nice time needling us Gnome users, all the while using our outrage to drum up readership for his magazine. He also claims that 70% of all his readership use KDE. In that case, one would expect to see an overwhelming number of KDE-centric articles, just to reflect the interests of his readership.

He's a long-time Gnome-hater, as you can read in his now-infamous Computer Week article, "Living Down to a Low Standard." You'll find a link to that op-ed piece here (http://www.computerworld.com/softwaretopics/software/story/0,10801,92934,00.html).

Right now, I prefer Gnome. I don't care for KDE (please note that I said 'prefer'--I didn't insist that one was better than the other). I'll revisit my decision when KDE 4.0 comes out. It should be quite interesting.

Mark :)

He does have quite a holier-than-thou attitude. But I take solace in the fact that I'm the expert of my own usability, whether I like Gnome or KDE. Gnome and KDE both a huge user base, and the software is free....and if people like either DE, they will use it regardless of trolls such as this Nicolas. Gnome is different and KDE is different, if they were the same...then what would be the use? Regardless, people would have to be pretty shallow to actually read that article and change their opinions because of it anyway.

mrtaber
April 6th, 2006, 07:24 AM
Yes, I am aware of when the article was written. It was quite the shocker at the time :) He may not feel so strongly these days, but he has even stated in Tux that he prefers KDE, which is fine. Nothing that I've read of his since makes me think he's had any big change of heart. At least, not yet.

I'm just glad we have multiple DEs to use. I like the choice. I'm not one of those that sees it as a harbinger of Linux's failure on the desktop because we have multiple DEs.

Enlightenment looks really interesting, too.

Mark :)

benplaut
April 6th, 2006, 07:33 AM
awe, hell. i'm a *box user :(

nobody loves us... let's unite! :D

*boxbuntu

henriquemaia
April 6th, 2006, 07:54 AM
Ubuntu on 3rd place. That's good.

Major smackdown for Debian. If I get it right, 3 distros from that list derive from it.

Perfect Storm
April 6th, 2006, 07:57 AM
With all these rant, discussion etc. we need a group hug ;)

awakatanka
April 6th, 2006, 08:16 AM
Bashing gnome because he likes kde is a stupid thing, someone that writes for a magazine free our not has to be objective and don't choose side. Our rename his magazine to kde lovers.

TeeAhr1
April 6th, 2006, 02:42 PM
With all these rant, discussion etc. we need a group hug ;)
Awwww!
*hugz*

beameup
April 6th, 2006, 04:02 PM
Funny, Tux magazine is the reason I gave Ubuntu a try. After reading all the Gnome bashing in there(I see Linspire bias too), I had to try it myself. Was a Xandros KDE person at the time. Now I'm a GNOME fan. It's what I like and I have a choice.

maddog39
April 24th, 2006, 09:58 PM
One major thing that was lacked in the reviews also was compatibility. I was really interested in seeing which disrobutions were compatible with which kinds of hardware...

therunnyman
April 25th, 2006, 01:30 AM
Madness!

Could someone tell me what precisely the difference is between KDE and GNOME, or XFCE, or Fluxbox or any other desktop? Myself, I've only played with the first three, and of the three, I found GNOME most challenging. Matter of fact, I left Windows for Kubuntu and found myself most comfortable...all too comfortable...

Seriously, DE's are like odes or sonatas or arias - you get a kernel, then the variants, all of which rock. Tell me Horace is better than Keats, then I'll tell you GNOME is better than KDE.

Ugh, journalism. I did that for a great long while, still do now and again. If someone claims to be "objective," use their work for teepee.

therunnyman

ComplexNumber
April 25th, 2006, 01:33 AM
Matter of fact, I left Windows for Kubuntu and found myself most comfortable...all too comfortable... thats not at all surprising. KDE aims itself at individuals who want the windows way of doing things, but don't want windows itself.
i never liked windows and ultimately wanted a DE with character and some uniqueness, so i found myself(after many years with KDE) most comfortable using gnome.

ShanghaiTeej
April 25th, 2006, 01:48 AM
Madness!

Could someone tell me what precisely the difference is between KDE and GNOME, or XFCE, or Fluxbox or any other desktop? Myself, I've only played with the first three, and of the three, I found GNOME most challenging. Matter of fact, I left Windows for Kubuntu and found myself most comfortable...all too comfortable...

Seriously, DE's are like odes or sonatas or arias - you get a kernel, then the variants, all of which rock. Tell me Horace is better than Keats, then I'll tell you GNOME is better than KDE.

Ugh, journalism. I did that for a great long while, still do now and again. If someone claims to be "objective," use their work for teepee.

therunnyman

Well, for starters, Keats had a rather skewed and fairly, if I may, "emo" approach to poetry which was stereotypical of great romantic writers (ie Shelley). Horace at least was able to put some humor in his work. Keats is extremely talented, but my word, what a dramatist.

I think I proved your point. Har har.