You Get One Chance

[bluefoxox]

I tried turning a young friend on to Linux through the use of Wubi today. He tried it once and it did not work. That was our one chance. "I've got better things to do with my time than tweak buggy software" was the attitude I got from Mason. When this happened I wondered for a moment how many people has the Linux turned away for a similar reason. I will try again with Mason, but I will be lucky if he puts any more effort into trying out Ubuntu.

[Lucradia]

He says "buggy" because of probably...

1. He may have had to use the terminal. (Windows users hardly ever use it.)

2. His hardware may have not worked (instant "buggy" comment. This will disallow future trials a lot.) (IE: 3G adapter, USB device, etc. And remember, Older is usually "better" when it comes to linux.)

[Excedio]

Sounds like he was probably not interested in the first place. Don't lose sleep over it. In the future if he's ever trully interested, he will come to you.

[Phrea]

Let them play with the live cd's.

[Jazzy_Jeff]

Sounds like he was probably not interested in the first place. Don't lose sleep over it. In the future if he's ever trully interested, he will come to you.

+1 on this. If he was really interested he would have put more effort into it. Most people I install Linux for come to me about it when they see me using it.

[ST3ALTHPSYCH0]

He says "buggy" because of probably...

1. He may have had to use the terminal. (Windows users hardly ever use it.)

2. His hardware may have not worked (instant "buggy" comment. This will disallow future trials a lot.) (IE: 3G adapter, USB device, etc. And remember, Older is usually "better" when it comes to linux.)


^Right, because there aren't any known bugs on launchpad concerning Ubuntu.

I don't blame him. It's one thing to spend time getting something working when you have a vested interest in it, or if you're a geek. On the other hand, if you're not having problems with whatever OS you're currently running, why would you bother screwing with something that doesn't work OOTB on your setup? The only reason would be if you have geek running in your veins, and then only if you have time to kill.

[bcbc]

I tried turning a young friend on to Linux through the use of Wubi today. He tried it once and it did not work. That was our one chance. "I've got better things to do with my time than tweak buggy software" was the attitude I got from Mason. When this happened I wondered for a moment how many people has the Linux turned away for a similar reason. I will try again with Mason, but I will be lucky if he puts any more effort into trying out Ubuntu.

Running 10.04 giving you a shiny new OS that you can run on an old piece of junk computer (most without problems) - that boots at speeds equivalent to or faster than windows 7. However try install windows 7 on that piece of junk and see how far you get.
Ubuntu runs pretty fast even booted from a single CD 800MB. It's very fast from a 1GB USB stick.

Wubi is a way of running an OS from a file - that you can install and uninstall within another OS. And it works out of the box for most people. It's better than a virtual box (simpler for one) but since you get direct access to hardware it runs with functionality and speeds equivalent to a naturally installed OS.

All in all, ubuntu is pretty amazing. It's all a matter of perspective. And next time you install on someone's computer, make sure you know what you are doing.

[bluefoxox]

And next time you install on someone's computer, make sure you know what you are doing.

He is a friend who live in another state here in the US, Mason attempted the install himself. I am going to see if I can help him along but will not be worrying about it much if he does not decide to use it.

[bcbc]

He is a friend who live in another state here in the US, Mason attempted the install himself. I am going to see if I can help him along but will not be worrying about it much if he does not decide to use it.

Fair enough... maybe that was a bit harsh :)

[Penguin Guy]

^Right, because there aren't any known bugs on launchpad concerning Ubuntu.

I don't blame him. It's one thing to spend time getting something working when you have a vested interest in it, or if you're a geek. On the other hand, if you're not having problems with whatever OS you're currently running, why would you bother screwing with something that doesn't work OOTB on your setup? The only reason would be if you have geek running in your veins, and then only if you have time to kill.
Err, lol. Someone doesn't like Ubuntu.

[Excedio]

He is a friend who live in another state here in the US, Mason attempted the install himself. I am going to see if I can help him along but will not be worrying about it much if he does not decide to use it.

Good. Keep this mentality the entire way through this process. I have seen too many people here go ballistic on friends/family over things like this. It's not worth losing a friend.

[Excedio]

Err, lol. Someone doesn't like Ubuntu.

Be sure you read his signature. ;-)

[Kdar]

One great thing about Windows is Microsoft's customer service. Thats why you never hear them say buggy about their Windows OS.

[Excedio]

One great thing about Windows is Microsoft's customer service. Thats why you never hear them say buggy about their Windows OS.

Don't know if I would classify that as a "great" thing. ;-)

[ST3ALTHPSYCH0]

Err, lol. Someone doesn't like Ubuntu.

Actually, I've had pretty decent luck with 10.04 On my two machines.... but I use Win7 as my primary.
What I get bent out of shape about is all these posts that act like Linux in general and Ubuntu in specific are some sort of salvation. If you want to use it, and it works for you, does what you need, etc., then great. But, let's not turn a blind eye to the fact that it does have problems, it doesn't work for some people, and some people have better things to do than tweak it until it does work.

[bcbc]

Actually, I've had pretty decent luck with 10.04 On my two machines.... but I use Win7 as my primary.
What I get bent out of shape about is all these posts that act like Linux in general and Ubuntu in specific are some sort of salvation. If you want to use it, and it works for you, does what you need, etc., then great. But, let's not turn a blind eye to the fact that it does have problems, it doesn't work for some people, and some people have better things to do than tweak it until it does work.

I think this thread was about one attempt at installing that failed and that was enough to say Ubuntu was too buggy. Not about Ubuntu being a 'salvation'.

We don't even know why the installation failed - maybe the user put the CD in upside down (joke), but the point is - it's the type of comment that really isn't asking for help, and isn't saying anything useful. Nobody is 'turning a blind eye'

[forrestcupp]

He says "buggy" because of probably...

1. He may have had to use the terminal. (Windows users hardly ever use it.)

2. His hardware may have not worked (instant "buggy" comment. This will disallow future trials a lot.) (IE: 3G adapter, USB device, etc. And remember, Older is usually "better" when it comes to linux.)

No, he says "buggy" because he tried it and it didn't work. It doesn't matter what the cause was; it just didn't work.

If someone who is perfectly happy with Windows gets talked into trying out a replacement for Windows, and the first impression is that it doesn't work without putting a lot of effort into it, what do you expect?

[ST3ALTHPSYCH0]

No, he says "buggy" because he tried it and it didn't work. It doesn't matter what the cause was; it just didn't work.

If someone who is perfectly happy with Windows gets talked into trying out a replacement for Windows, and the first impression is that it doesn't work without putting a lot of effort into it, what do you expect?
^ This is what I was trying to say. I just happened to overreact out of the gate b/c I've read too many of the Ubuntu > the world threads. My reaction wasn't intended towards the OP, but rather at others who's responses came across as saying "Windows users aren't smart enough to use Ubuntu, so they say that it's buggy".

[cariboo]

Ubuntu does have lots of warts, but people make the assumption that because they have been using Windows most of their lives, that they should be able to us a Linux variant from the start, just like they use Windows. It took years to learn Windows, why not devote the same amount of time learning to use a Linux variant.

[bcbc]

^ This is what I was trying to say. I just happened to overreact out of the gate b/c I've read too many of the Ubuntu > the world threads. My reaction wasn't intended towards the OP, but rather at others who's responses came across as saying "Windows users aren't smart enough to use Ubuntu, so they say that it's buggy".

I guess it's different to say something is "buggy" or that it has "bugs". The first implies that it just doesn't cut it. Ubuntu does try to be everything to all people (or all machines) and this is an impossible task.

But actually, I do think that more attention needs to be paid to the first step: installation. I think the developer pool for e.g. wubi is too small (at least that's the impression I get) and if they could refine it and if they could make it 90/10 or 99/1 instead of 80/20 success rate it would go a long way to improving Ubuntu's image. Updating the online docs would go a long way to improving it as well.

[thymox]

...
On the other hand, if you're not having problems with whatever OS you're currently running, why would you bother screwing with something that doesn't work OOTB on your setup? The only reason would be if you have geek running in your veins, and then only if you have time to kill.(my emphasis)

To be honest, this kinda annoys me (as well my students know). In a huge number of cases, Windows does not work out-of-the-box. People do not complain about it though. The moment Linux (Ubuntu or any other variant) fails on something it is somehow deemed a different matter. Surely this is an unfair situation to be in?

I fully imagine that if the person mentioned by the OP tried a vanilla installation of whatever version of Windows they're using (without any 'driver CDs' from hardware manufacturers), they would be equally as appalled and it wouldn't 'work out of the box'.

Grant.

[ST3ALTHPSYCH0]

Ubuntu does have lots of warts, but people make the assumption that because they have been using Windows most of their lives, that they should be able to us a Linux variant from the start, just like they use Windows. It took years to learn Windows, why not devote the same amount of time learning to use a Linux variant.
If they've become put off by Windows or they just like playing with computers, they will. But, if they're just wanting to try something different, why would they fight to start that learning curve? Some people enjoy a challenge, but some want it to "just work". A lot of people who have been using Windows all their lives have never had to hunt an obscure driver or mess with partitioning. They buy a machine with Windows preinstalled, and when it breaks, they get a new one. For these people, if it doesn't work, 100%, OOTB, they're not gonna give it another look.




To be honest, this kinda annoys me (as well my students know). In a huge number of cases, Windows does not work out-of-the-box. People do not complain about it though. The moment Linux (Ubuntu or any other variant) fails on something it is somehow deemed a different matter. Surely this is an unfair situation to be in?

I fully imagine that if the person mentioned by the OP tried a vanilla installation of whatever version of Windows they're using (without any 'driver CDs' from hardware manufacturers), they would be equally as appalled and it wouldn't 'work out of the box'.

Grant.

This is true, but like I said, for the vast majority of people OOTB in the Windows world means first boot, not first install.

[Excedio]

If they've become put off by Windows or they just like playing with computers, they will. But, if they're just wanting to try something different, why would they fight to start that learning curve? Some people enjoy a challenge, but some want it to "just work". A lot of people who have been using Windows all their lives have never had to hunt an obscure driver or mess with partitioning. They buy a machine with Windows preinstalled, and when it breaks, they get a new one. For these people, if it doesn't work, 100%, OOTB, they're not gonna give it another look.

Careful now. I know plenty of Windows people that do this. Almost as often as it happens to a Linux user.

[ST3ALTHPSYCH0]

I think that I'm blurring lines in my head. Most of us know a lot of users who are above the level of basic consumer, so they are the kind who might be hunting drivers, playing with partitions, and venturing onto the command line. Since starting in the IT field, I've met a lot of people who are doing good to replace their own ink/ toner cartridges.... and I've come to think of these folks as the "average" user. I'm probably wrong in this thinking, but that's the tint my glasses currently have.

[bcbc]

Careful now. I know plenty of Windows people that do this. Almost as often as it happens to a Linux user.
Exactly.

I've spent countless hours cleaning and fixing various friends' and family's windows computers. And OOTB??? Windows Vista did not work OOTB and there were some things I wasn't able to ever repair e.g. the wireless turning itself off automatically or the screen resolution changing by itself (maybe it was specific to the Sony laptop but it came OEM installed!). Windows 7 seems pretty decent so far, but to say that all Windows works flawlessly is a bit of a stretch.

[cariboo]

The solution for people that want a Linux variant that works ootb is to purchase a system with it pre-installed.

As long as it has to be installed by the user, we are going to run into people that either don't have the skill or the will to solve problems, no matter what operating system they choose.

My personal opinion is that as long as the educational system doesn't teach kids how to use computers as opposed to teaching them how to use programs, we will always have people that have a hard time changing ink cartridges, or even installing a program. Education should be putting those of us the service computer systems out of work, instead of creating more work for us.

[Kdar]

Don't know if I would classify that as a "great" thing. ;-)

actually, I was dead serious about it :p

[digitalcitizenx]

I would have a virtual machine instead of Wubi.

I wish Wubi would disappear. It really is bad software.

VirtualBox is the way I would have gone if I were trying to sell someone on Ubuntu.

[earthpigg]

i would have a virtual machine instead of wubi.

I wish wubi would disappear. It really is bad software.

Virtualbox is the way i would have gone if i were trying to sell someone on ubuntu.

+1

[ST3ALTHPSYCH0]

I would have a virtual machine instead of Wubi.

I wish Wubi would disappear. It really is bad software.

VirtualBox is the way I would have gone if I were trying to sell someone on Ubuntu.

+2
It's a good idea on the surface... unfortunately, it doesn't implement quite as well as advertised.

[bcbc]

I would have a virtual machine instead of Wubi.

I wish Wubi would disappear. It really is bad software.

VirtualBox is the way I would have gone if I were trying to sell someone on Ubuntu.

Virtual machines don't seem like a practical solution for average computer users. Maybe you could elaborate a bit on your reasoning.

[McRat]

One great thing about Windows is Microsoft's customer service. Thats why you never hear them say buggy about their Windows OS.

Not so sure about that, at least in my experience.

First nearly all Win computers are "pre-installed OEM" seats, which limits your direct MS tech support.

Now if you buy a seat Retail, you are granted some tech support. But at least with me, if I surrender and call for help, it usually isn't something that can be fixed.

MS relies heavily on hardware vendors to support Windows. If it's unsupported hardware, you're SOL.

In the last 10 years, I've never had MS solve one problem when contacted. If I can't figure it out, they usually can't either.

Last time I called Hewlett Packard Windows Support, they hosed my brand new computer. Would not even reboot when they were done. I fixed it, but DANG...

I have had much, much better luck with Ubuntu on "random builds" than Win7.

[McRat]

When I install Ubuntu on a Windows machine, I start with a brand new $45 HDD. I remove the OEM drive, install the new HDD, and install Ubuntu.

Is that odd? I don't think so. I do the same when trying to do a Windows Version Change. ie - if it had Win95 on it, and I wanted XP, I would pull the drive first. If I were to put Win7 on a Vista or XP machine, I'd do the same.

[ST3ALTHPSYCH0]

Not so sure about that, at least in my experience.

First nearly all Win computers are "pre-installed OEM" seats, which limits your direct MS tech support.

Now if you buy a seat Retail, you are granted some tech support. But at least with me, if I surrender and call for help, it usually isn't something that can be fixed.

MS relies heavily on hardware vendors to support Windows. If it's unsupported hardware, you're SOL.

In the last 10 years, I've never had MS solve one problem when contacted. If I can't figure it out, they usually can't either.

Last time I called Hewlett Packard Windows Support, they hosed my brand new computer. Would not even reboot when they were done. I fixed it, but DANG...

I have had much, much better luck with Ubuntu on "random builds" than Win7.

Honestly, I go to Google and forums for my tech support.

[earthpigg]

Virtual machines don't seem like a practical solution for average computer users. Maybe you could elaborate a bit on your reasoning.

Virtual Machines are the ideal solution for testing operating systems. Getting a feel for what conventions are used, how things work, etc.

In the OP's case, the user didn't even make it that far because wubi isn't reliable.

eg: "If Wubi is officially supported by Ubuntu, and is this unreliable, then I will pass on Ubuntu."

Not an entirely unreasonable conclusion, if that is the user's first and only first-hand experience with Ubuntu.

Telling someone to try Wubi to get a feel for Ubuntu is like telling someone to test drive a 1993 Toyota with the "check engine" light on to get a feel for what Toyota vehicles are like.

Wubi was created with it's "check engine" light turned on.

Telling someone to try Ubuntu in VirtualBox to get a feel for Ubuntu is more akin to telling someone to drive a brand new car in perfect condition, with the caveat that the test driver can't take it on the highway. It wont go as fast as the real thing, but is otherwise identical.

[digitalcitizenx]

Virtual machines don't seem like a practical solution for average computer users. Maybe you could elaborate a bit on your reasoning.

Buggy, Crashy Wubi is a better solution to a virtual machine?

Let's see - double click on icon on Windows desktop - application starts - select Ubuntu OS - click on start - OS boots - user uses OS

seems pretty straight forward to me

four clicks of a mouse tops starts an OS in VB

Wubi works well only when the Windows file system is functioning properly - which IMHO - most aren't

Install VirtualBox - free

DL Ubuntu - free

Install Ubuntu - 30 min (or less), a Tab and three slices of pizza and you're done

[Excedio]

actually, I was dead serious about it :p

You're a lucky man then. :-D

However, having a place to call is definately a plus.

[ST3ALTHPSYCH0]

Virtual Machines are the ideal solution for testing operating systems. Getting a feel for what conventions are used, how things work, etc.



Yep
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l93/ST3ALTHPSYCH0/VMs.jpg
:D

[bcbc]

In the OP's case, the user didn't even make it that far because wubi isn't reliable.
...
Wubi was created with it's "check engine" light turned on.

Telling someone to try Ubuntu in VirtualBox to get a feel for Ubuntu is more akin to telling someone to drive a brand new car in perfect condition, with the caveat that the test driver can't take it on the highway. It wont go as fast as the real thing, but is otherwise identical.

To be fair, we don't know why the wubi install failed.

I was looking for reasons why encouraging new average users to install a virtual machine, and then install ubuntu on it - would make more sense than running wubi. Not what sort of car wubi is. :)

So how does the user know how good Ubuntu is when it doesn't run at 'highway speed'? Or you're relying on another OS handling the hardware? This seems like a downside to me.

How do we explain virtual machines to the average user who wants to see what Ubuntu is like? I just don't think you've thought this through.

[JDShu]

I think the title is a fair statement. For somebody completely uninterested in switching OSs, you do only have 1 chance. Or maybe even half a chance - if it works well then the person will only *consider* using it.

On the other hand, its true that people have a strange faith in windows. I have a friend who told me that what he liked about windows was that it was straightforward and easy to fix "without being a super h4x0r". His computer was broken at the time and he was trying to fix it.

He got the computer semi-working after 2 weeks of very little sleep, and right now it still crashes every day for no apparent reason. Oh well :P

[McRat]

I wonder if things will change when USB 3.0 memory sticks become common.

A USB 3.0 memory stick will run at about the same speed as an older HDD if you boot from it.

There are already high-end USB 3.0 sticks that are faster than many HDD's.

Running off the CD to demonstrate the O/S is pretty counter-productive since it's very slow.

[bcbc]

The only reason why I engaged in this VB versus Wubi debate is that I think a lot of the criticisms against wubi are emotional. Many of the complainants don't even understand how wubi works. (Not all, but imo many). I'm sure some haven't even tried it.

There are some very valid complaints against wubi, just like those against Windows and those against Ubuntu. I have no problem explaining these to a user.

But do you honestly believe that the many successful wubi installs could be replaced and improved with virtual machine usage? I don't think that's practical.

Imagine if someone posts a thread saying they failed to install Ubuntu, and I post a reply: "ubuntu is cr*p, don't use it" with no further explanation. (Heresy, right?) Well that's exactly what happens *often* with wubi support requests. In many cases the problem is a video card or something like that, and a real install would make absolutely no difference.

Let's just be rational about it - if you think it's buggy, file a bug report and help fix it.

[Kdar]

You're a lucky man then. :-D

However, having a place to call is definately a plus.

yes, plus its international place :) I can talk with India for free.

[Old_Grey_Wolf]

I would have a virtual machine instead of Wubi.

I wish Wubi would disappear. It really is bad software.

VirtualBox is the way I would have gone if I were trying to sell someone on Ubuntu.

I find VM's to be very useful; however, you need a computer with enough memory and processing power to use them.

Fortunately, all of my computers have dual core processors with 4 GB of RAM. Not everyone has that luxury. :)

[Old_Grey_Wolf]

The only reason why I engaged in this VB versus Wubi debate is that I think a lot of the criticisms against wubi are emotional. Many of the complainants don't even understand how wubi works. (Not all, but imo many). I'm sure some haven't even tried it.

....

Imagine if someone posts a thread saying they failed to install Ubuntu, and I post a reply: "ubuntu is cr*p, don't use it" with no further explanation. (Heresy, right?) Well that's exactly what happens *often* with wubi support requests. In many cases the problem is a video card or something like that, and a real install would make absolutely no difference.

That is exactly the reason I do not recommend a WUBI install. When people go to the Ubuntu forums for help, and don't identify themselves as using a WUBI install, and it causes confusion. Even if they do, it seems that few people that can help with problems know anything about how WUBI works.

[jerenept]

YOU GOT ONE CHANCE??? I didn't even get one! I beg and plead for the one chance you squandered.

[forrestcupp]

The only reason why I engaged in this VB versus Wubi debate is that I think a lot of the criticisms against wubi are emotional. Many of the complainants don't even understand how wubi works. (Not all, but imo many). I'm sure some haven't even tried it.
Other than that Wubi isn't supported very well, my main complaint about it is that you still have to reboot to get to it. So why not just do it right and dual boot? Installing a dual boot setup is pretty much automated, so it's not like it's really any harder than Wubi.

One positive thing about a virtual machine is that all of the virtual hardware is guaranteed to work with Linux, which is not so with Wubi. The bad thing is that it's a major pain in the backside to get visual effects working in one. They're a hassle, and not a good option, either.

In my opinion, the right way to do it is to get them really interested before you try to talk them into actually installing it. Then they're more likely to put some effort into getting it to work. But in my opinion, a real install is the way to go.

[thymox]

Other than that Wubi isn't supported very well, my main complaint about it is that you still have to reboot to get to it. So why not just do it right and dual boot? Installing a dual boot setup is pretty much automated, so it's not like it's really any harder than Wubi.

One positive thing about a virtual machine is that all of the virtual hardware is guaranteed to work with Linux, which is not so with Wubi. The bad thing is that it's a major pain in the backside to get visual effects working in one. They're a hassle, and not a good option, either.Why not do a real install? Have you ever had to deal with someone who did a real install, decided they didn't like it (for whatever reason) and tried to remove it? That is why I opt for a WUBI install for people just testing the waters. I have to admit that I usually modify Windows' boot.ini to make Ubuntu the default after 1s so they actually have to think about it before booting into Windows.

On the VM side of things... yeah, the virtual hardware may work seamlessly, but the real hardware is invisible unless you start messing around. Case point - a USB device, such as a pendrive/media player. You give Ubuntu to someone running in a VM; they plug in their media player and expect it to appear under Ubuntu... but it doesn't. Instantly they think "Ubuntu sucks". Try to explain to them that they need to enable usb-passthrough or enable their chosen virtual machine software to pick specific USB devices and make them visible to the virtual Ubuntu and you've lost them.
Let's just be rational about it - if you think it's buggy, file a bug report and help fix it.Yay! The number of times I've said that (in various places) is astonishing! Unfortunately with Ubuntu's ever increasing popularity there will be a steady growth of pure consumerist approaches to it, rather than people actually getting involved in the Ubuntu/Linux community.

Grant.

[clanky]

Ubuntu does have lots of warts, but people make the assumption that because they have been using Windows most of their lives, that they should be able to us a Linux variant from the start, just like they use Windows. It took years to learn Windows, why not devote the same amount of time learning to use a Linux variant.

The problem is that many people seem to feel a need to "convert" all of their friends to Linux and many tell these friends that Linux / Ubuntu is a direct replacement for Windows.

Linux does take time to learn and if you want to take that time it is great, but for those who are not having major issues with Windows then it is often simply not worth the time and effort to learn how to use Linux. If people insist on trying to gain converts they should be open and honest with them about the fact that Linux isn't Windows and that they won't be able to do everything that they could do in Windows by tomorrow.

[forrestcupp]

Why not do a real install? Have you ever had to deal with someone who did a real install, decided they didn't like it (for whatever reason) and tried to remove it? That is why I opt for a WUBI install for people just testing the waters.
That's the point of the end of my post. You shouldn't do any kind of install until they are extremely interested enough to want to get it to work.