I'm upset that people call Firefox 4's UI "Chrome-like"

[Pogeymanz]

I know this doesn't matter and it's stupid, but I'm upset in general when people don't realize that most of the things that Mozilla and Google "innovated" actually came from Opera.

In this case, the tabs-over-urlbar style was done by Opera first way back in the nineties, I believe.

Then, I guess not having a menu-bar can be given to Google, but Firefox's version of menu-bar-lessness still resembles Opera more than Chrome!

Just for the sake of rant, here is a list of things that Opera invented first:

TABS!!!!
Tabs on top of urlbar (has always been this way)
Speed Dial
Syncing your browser settings over the web
Per-site preferences (As far as I know)
Content Blocking? I don't know when this was invented, but I used it a LONG time ago.
Mouse Gestures

So, World, please stop giving Google (or Mozilla) credit for stuff it didn't invent.

[Queue29]

:-({|=


Maybe if Opera implemented all of their inventions well, perhaps then they would be reaping credit for them.

[Pogeymanz]

:-({|=


Maybe if Opera implemented all of their inventions well, perhaps then they would be reaping credit for them.

Well, I believe that Opera's biggest mistake was having a browser with a built-in ad-bar at the time that Firefox started out. Which would you choose: a browser with or without an adbar assuming both are pretty good web browsers? Especially when you don't know or understand many of the technical differences.

If it weren't for that, I think Opera and Firefox would have their roles reversed.

But it's funny you should say that, because I find Opera's tab behavior and abundance of out-of-the-box options superior to the other browsers.

That's besides the point, though. The fact is: Opera invented stuff and should be recognized for it, even if people don't use it.

Disclaimer: I don't actually use Opera. I just want credit to go where it's due.

[Half-Left]

Firefox 4 beta looks almost identical to Opera 10.6.

Opera 10.6 http://www.cnet.com.au/story_media/339304240/opera_1.jpg

Firefox 4 Beta http://downloadmozila.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/mozilla-firefox-4-screenshot.png

[LowSky]

Too bad most people don't even know that Opera exists. Maybe they should sue Mozilla for "stealing".

[wirate]

Not the correct thread but I installed firefox 4 on ubuntu and its interface is almost 3.x except the option of tabs on top. I cant remove the file menu. While firefox 4 on windows looks just like it should look.

[RiceMonster]

Who cares? Developers constantly borrow ideas from other programs. That's why software has been able to improve so much over the past few decades. Incorporating good ideas from other programs to make things better is a good idea in my opinion. Not that I'm saying innovating is a bad thing; that's good as well.

All I care about is whether it's implemented well. If you're the first one to do something and do it poorly, I'll go with the next one down the line that does it well. I really don't care that you did it first.

[Paqman]

Firefox's version of menu-bar-lessness still resembles Opera more than Chrome!


Chrome has a lot more mindshare than Opera, so it's hardly surprising people would compare it to Chrome.

[Simian Man]

All I care about is whether it's implemented well. If you're the first one to do something and do it poorly, I'll go with the next one down the line that does it well. I really don't care that you did it first.

A big +1. To quote Linus Torvalds:


It was Edison who said ‘1% inspiration, 99% perspiration’. That may have been true a hundred years ago. These days it's ‘0.01% inspiration, 99.99% perspiration’, and the inspiration is the easy part. As a project manager, I have never had trouble finding people with crazy ideas. I have trouble finding people who can execute. IOW, ‘innovation" is way oversold.

So no, I don't think people need more innovation. I'd rather see more people sell their product on some plain old-fashioned ‘being good’.

[Pogeymanz]

Who cares? Developers constantly borrow ideas from other programs. That's why software has been able to improve so much over the past few decades. Incorporating good ideas from other programs to make things better is a good idea in my opinion. Not that I'm saying innovating is a bad thing; that's good as well.

All I care about is whether it's implemented well. If you're the first one to do something and do it poorly, I'll go with the next one down the line that does it well. I really don't care that you did it first.

Sure, but I'm not blaming Mozilla in any way. I'm glad they are doing tabs on top because it drove me nuts for years that they didn't.

I'm saying that WE, the users, and THEM, the article writers should not falsely give credit to Chrome. That's like saying that Hitler invented antisemitism -it's just incorrect.

(Godwin'd!)

[Half-Left]

Too bad most people don't even know that Opera exists. Maybe they should sue Mozilla for "stealing".

It's not possible unless someone patents the layout. Just like Apple won't sue Microsoft or vice-versa over layouts. I mean if they could, Canonical would be sued right, left and centre for copying the OS X layout and features.

[jwbrase]

Just like Apple won't sue Microsoft or vice-versa over layouts.

It's not that Apple won't sue MS over layouts. It's that they did back in '88, and got their head handed to them in court.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_vs._Microsoft

[Excedio]

It's not possible unless someone patents the layout. Just like Apple won't sue Microsoft or vice-versa over layouts. I mean if they could, Canonical would be sued right, left and centre for copying the OS X layout and features.

I believe you might mean Gnome would be sued. It's their DE.

[Yarui]

Sure, but I'm not blaming Mozilla in any way. I'm glad they are doing tabs on top because it drove me nuts for years that they didn't.

I'm saying that WE, the users, and THEM, the article writers should not falsely give credit to Chrome. That's like saying that Hitler invented antisemitism -it's just incorrect.

(Godwin'd!)
If you were to say to a large crowd "This new web browser looks a lot like opera." You wouldn't likely get much of a response. More people have had experience with Chrome and Firefox, so it makes sense that similar things would be said to be "like Chrome" or "like Firefox". No one is claiming they were the innovators, they are just saying the two things are similar because that's the first impression. You tend to notice similarities in things you have actually used.

On a totally unrelated topic, what is up with VHS beating Betamax? I mean, Betamax was released like a year earlier than VHS and was a clearly superior format. What is wrong with the world?

[Half-Left]

I believe you might mean Gnome would be sued. It's their DE.

GNOME doesn't use the Ubuntu layout.It's Ubuntu that has title buttons on the left, monochrome icons, applet menus on right click. 10.10 I heard will have a global type menu, which is all not part of upstream GNOME. This is all what Ubuntu copies from OS X, not GNOME.

[Half-Left]

It's not that Apple won't sue MS over layouts. It's that they did back in '88, and got their head handed to them in court.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_vs._Microsoft

I mean now, not 22 years ago. They're always making fun of Microsoft copying their ideas, not suing them. There is a big difference between then and now.

[forrestcupp]

I thought IE was the first to do all of that. :lol:

What I want to know is what's the point of having tabs on top if you're still going to have a separate title bar? The reason chrome did it on top was to merge tabs with the title bar and give us more web page real estate. That's innovative and useful.

Putting tabs on top but still having a separate title bar is pointless. It's just rearranging everything. The only reason they're doing it with Firefox 4 is because they know that people get sucked into thinking that just because something looks different it's better. ;)

[CrusaderAD]

Opera isn't a very good browser. They claim to be the fastest browser, but it just isn't so. That said, they are the best and fastest e-mail client I have ever used.

[lukeiamyourfather]

Opera was cool back in the late nineties until they embedded ads in the user interface. Haven't touched it since that day and probably never well regardless of what Opera becomes or does. One explanation is people dismiss Opera on principal alone. That pretty much sums up how I feel about it.

The first mouse and graphical user interface was developed by Xerox, but many give credit to Apple. The Prius is credited for hybrid electric vehicle technology even though a hybrid electric vehicle was produced 97 years earlier by Porsche. Another explanation is the copy is better than the original.

Just throwing ideas out there. :popcorn:

[Half-Left]

It's funny though. If you look at other areas like copying technologies, Formula One teams always copy each other(if you watch F1 right now you'll know what I'm talking about) and say they're "flattered" by it.

If someone is copying, you know you've done something right, since people generally don't copy bad ideas.

[Madspyman]

GNOME doesn't use the Ubuntu layout.It's Ubuntu that has title buttons on the left, monochrome icons, applet menus on right click. 10.10 I heard will have a global type menu, which is all not part of upstream GNOME. This is all what Ubuntu copies from OS X, not GNOME.

It's pretty shameless.

Opera did a lot of things first, but Firefox became so much more popular that by the time Chrome was released, people had no idea Opera was even an option so Chrome got all the credit.


Another explanation is the copy is better than the original.

Just throwing ideas out there. :popcorn:

That's basically what happened.

[samalex]

Well, I believe that Opera's biggest mistake was having a browser with a built-in ad-bar at the time that Firefox started out. Which would you choose: a browser with or without an adbar assuming both are pretty good web browsers? Especially when you don't know or understand many of the technical differences.

Me and some friends were talking about this exact thing over lunch... Opera could've been where Firefox is now if they would've open sourced the browser years ago. Instead they charged for it even after Netscape proved that was fruitless, and their free version was ad-supported which is never successful.

I've always liked Opera, and even in their earliest versions I drooled over features it had that none of the other browsers supported. But as someone said they just didn't execute their innovation correctly, so others have come along and stolen their glory.

Personally I'll probably always stick with Firefox. I don't care much for the layout of Chrome, and outside of those two I don't see any other contenders that even come close.

Sam

[Penguin Guy]

I know this doesn't matter and it's stupid...
Yup. People give too much credit to credit.

[lovinglinux]

Sure, but I'm not blaming Mozilla in any way. I'm glad they are doing tabs on top because it drove me nuts for years that they didn't.

I'm saying that WE, the users, and THEM, the article writers should not falsely give credit to Chrome. That's like saying that Hitler invented antisemitism -it's just incorrect.

(Godwin'd!)

I personally don't like tabs on top, but I like mine upside down like this:

http://ubuntuforums.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=162933&stc=1&d=1278718828


I thought IE was the first to do all of that. :lol:

What I want to know is what's the point of having tabs on top if you're still going to have a separate title bar? The reason chrome did it on top was to merge tabs with the title bar and give us more web page real estate. That's innovative and useful.

Putting tabs on top but still having a separate title bar is pointless. It's just rearranging everything. The only reason they're doing it with Firefox 4 is because they know that people get sucked into thinking that just because something looks different it's better. ;)

I agree. Additionally, I'm really worried about the influence of Google Chrome popularity on how Firefox will be designed from now on. For instance, developers are already studying how to remove the status bar and do something like Chrome does.

I don't like Chrome. It is too chromeless, featureless and not customizable.

[lukeiamyourfather]

I don't like Chrome. It is too chromeless, featureless and not customizable.

What? Its quite the opposite. Its open source, has well documented API for plugins, has both official and unofficial themes which are also well documented (so you can even make your own). Plus all of the usual browser preferences for security and downloads, etc.

https://tools.google.com/chrome/intl/cy/themes/index.html
https://chrome.google.com/extensions/?hl=en

So, not really sure why you say Chrome is featureless and not customizable? ;)

[gradinaruvasile]

Well the ui is more Opera-like than Chrome-like in beta 1.
I use Opera since the 10.5x prereleases and now i tried the Firefox 4 beta and it looks like Opera as the UI layout is concerned - it even "copies" (not fully) Opera's side pane for the add-on management and such. But the font rendering isnt as good as in Opera (maybe it has to do with the generic Linux build so it may differ for final distro-specific builds).
Anyway, its the old Firefox (the preference menus for example are the same) in somewhat new clothes (i know it changed under the hood aswell).

Anyway i stick to Opera, the mail client and the built-in adblocker (and other neat built-in features) got me hooked.

[Giant Speck]

I personally don't like tabs on top, but I like mine upside down like this:

http://ubuntuforums.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=162933&stc=1&d=1278718828


Which is like older versions of Safari. ;)

[lovinglinux]

What? Its quite the opposite. Its open source, has well documented API for plugins, has both official and unofficial themes which are also well documented (so you can even make your own). Plus all of the usual browser preferences for security and downloads, etc.

https://tools.google.com/chrome/intl/cy/themes/index.html
https://chrome.google.com/extensions/?hl=en

So, not really sure why you say Chrome is featureless and not customizable? ;)

Well, it doesn't matter if you have well documented API, if the API itself can't do what you want. Take a look at my list of installed extensions (https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/collection/lovinglinux) and tell me if I can do what those extensions do in Chrome? I'm not talking about one or two, I'm talking about the entire lot. Additionally, try to port a feature rich Firefox extension to Chrome to see how it goes.

Firefox extension API and built-in customization options offers you endless possibilities. I can customize menus, toolbars, buttons, tabs, sidebar and can overlay new UI elements almost everywhere. Google Chrome in the other hand doesn't have a sidebar, doesn't have status bar, doesn't allow to move toolbars, move extension buttons or any other buttons, spacers, bookmarks bar, change interface font size and so on. If you don't believe me, ask 10 Firefox users and 1000 Chrome users to post screen shots of their browsers using the default theme. You will see that the 1000 Chrome users will have almost identical screen shots, while none of the Firefox screen shots will be similar.

Google Chrome themes (https://tools.google.com/chrome/intl/cy/themes/google.html) are merely what Mozilla calls Personas for Firefox (http://www.getpersonas.com/en-US/). They both suck and just change the browser interface colors and background. Real themes should be able to change the interface itself, which is what Firefox themes (https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/browse/type:2) do.

I can customize and optimize Firefox event further by accessing about:config. There is no such thing in Google Chrome (http://www.google.com/support/forum/p/Chrome/thread?tid=77ab735a5557ffe8&hl=en), so you are pretty much stuck with the few options available in the Options menu.

You can also customize Firefox interface with Stylish scripts userChrome.css. The Google Chrome scripts and user styles only works for web sites, as far as I know.

Firefox allows me to create, manage and launch user profiles through the Profile Manager, while you need to do that manually in Chrome (http://www.labnol.org/software/create-family-profiles-in-google-chrome/4394/).

Well, I guess this gives you an idea why a say chrome is chromeless, featureless and not customizable.

[neoargon]

May be the opera people should take patent of what they invent

[ikt]

Opera overall is the best browser there is, however credit has to be given to chrome for introducing the 'javascript' race, and have it actually running well on ubuntu, I don't know what it is but opera just doesn't seem to integrate well on linux, might give it another try soon.

[kamaboko]

Don't let it ruin your day.

[Merk42]

Turn off Adblock
Visit http://www.firefox4beta.com/
Laugh at ironic ad


Not the correct thread but I installed firefox 4 on ubuntu and its interface is almost 3.x except the option of tabs on top. I cant remove the file menu. While firefox 4 on windows looks just like it should look.
Firefox 4 beta features (http://www.mozilla.com/en-US/firefox/beta/features/)




OSX and Linux Themes

The new interface described above will soon be available for Mac and Linux users.

...For instance, developers are already studying how to remove the status bar and do something like Chrome does.
This is the direction Ubuntu (or at least UNE) is going as a whole, so maybe you should be worried about more than Firefox

[lovinglinux]

Turn off Adblock
Visit http://www.firefox4beta.com/
Laugh at ironic ad

Firefox 4 beta features (http://www.mozilla.com/en-US/firefox/beta/features/)

I must admit that Windows version looks awesome.



[list=1]This is the direction Ubuntu (or at least UNE) is going as a whole, so maybe you should be worried about more than Firefox

Well, UNE is expected to be like that.

[Noz3001]

If OP did his research, he'd find out that Mozilla actually drew up plans for this layout way before Opera stole it.

[Merk42]

If OP did his research, he'd find out that Mozilla actually drew up plans for this layout way before Opera stole it.Source?

Opera 8, the first to have the tabs on top, came out in April 2005, Firefox 1.5 came out after, in December 2005.

So either Mozilla took 3 versions and 5 years to implement a plan they drew up, or you're just in denial.

[RJARRRPCGP]

opera isn't a very good browser. They claim to be the fastest browser, but it just isn't so.

Same here, I'm appalled how slow it loads images on webpages.

[gradinaruvasile]

I dunno if Opera is the fastest browser, but on my machines its as fast as Chromium (take into account that i have 2 big mailboxes on it). Just download the latest release:

http://my.opera.com/desktopteam/blog/

[lovinglinux]

I dunno if Opera is the fastest browser, but on my machines its as fast as Chromium (take into account that i have 2 big mailboxes on it). Just download the latest release:

http://my.opera.com/desktopteam/blog/
According to these benchmarks...it is not. Nevertheless, is pretty close and all those browsers are fast in the real world.

http://ubuntuforums.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=163100&stc=1&d=1278878518

[Lucifer The Dark]

Tabs on top of url bar == bloody horrible mess if you ask me & what's Opera? never heard of it before today, if it's anything like Firefox 4 I'll be giving it a miss as well.

[lovinglinux]

Tabs on top of url bar == bloody horrible mess if you ask me & what's Opera? never heard of it before today, if it's anything like Firefox 4 I'll be giving it a miss as well.

You can switch the tabs position in Firefox 4.

[ftravers]

Nope. They are closed source, Firefox is open source. If there ever is a close (feature/performance wise) product offering, the open sourced will win out, because they are much more pro-active in helping society as a whole, versus the closed alternative.


Well, I believe that Opera's biggest mistake was having a browser with a built-in ad-bar at the time that Firefox started out. Which would you choose: a browser with or without an adbar assuming both are pretty good web browsers? Especially when you don't know or understand many of the technical differences.

If it weren't for that, I think Opera and Firefox would have their roles reversed.

But it's funny you should say that, because I find Opera's tab behavior and abundance of out-of-the-box options superior to the other browsers.

That's besides the point, though. The fact is: Opera invented stuff and should be recognized for it, even if people don't use it.

Disclaimer: I don't actually use Opera. I just want credit to go where it's due.

[Pogeymanz]

Nope. They are closed source, Firefox is open source. If there ever is a close (feature/performance wise) product offering, the open sourced will win out, because they are much more pro-active in helping society as a whole, versus the closed alternative.

I disagree completely. Open source is never a selling point for anyone who doesn't already support open source. Nobody cares if it is open or closed. I tried explaining open source to my family and now they think that everything that is free ($$) is open source.

I guarantee you that less than 1% of people using Firefox on Windows would use Opera instead if it were open source.

[cguy]

Open-source or not, it took Opera ONE YEAR to implement the concept of private browsing.

Fail!

(so I jumped boat to Firefox and then to the smooth, nimble Chromium)

[alexan]

:-({|=


Maybe if Opera implemented all of their inventions well, perhaps then they would be reaping credit for them.

I follow opera from late '90, I can tell you that they have always implemented perfectly their innovation.
What they did lack was: come with the OS (IE, firefox and Safari) and appear on google homepage (firefox and chrome), or pay user for use it (google pay $1 for user which install firefox)