God help those who help themselves

[irv]

I find this happening a lot on this forum. People have a problem, and before they do a search to see if they can find the answer they just post their problem and let others do the work of searching for them. I call this laziness.
When a problem arises I start be looking for answers myself, when I exhaust all my sources then I will ask for help.
You see questions like where do I find drivers? Or How do I install? Or I broke my system, can someone help me fix it? To me it is like someone putting the key in there ignition of their car, turn the key and nothing happening, and then just go back in the house and calling for help without checking to see if it is some thing simple like a bad connection or dead battery or some other simple thing. It just seem like people don't want to do things for themselves anymore. I don't mind helping other but only after they try to help themselves. I like the saying “God help those who help themselves.”
And I am not saying that we don't all need help from time to time, that would be like saying we don't need this forum, when we know that's not true.

[fatality_uk]

Problem is irv, if users are coming from a Windows backgorund, the usual solution is to stick in a CD with the drivers or download a patch from the web. With Linux, it's often harder to do that.

Also bear in mind many, many people are just not interested in how or why, they just want it fixed. I for one am not that interested in how my washing machine works and if it won't start, it's highly unlikely that I will download the manual, connect a laptop and see what's on the ROM's to diagnose a fault.


To a lot of people, a PC is a "white good". No more, no less!

[Tristam Green]

Your religious overtones notwithstanding, to a degree you're correct; help comes more readily for those who help themselves.

However, in your car analogy, someone may be entirely clueless as to what is going on in his car, and genuinely needs that help, and calling out is the only thing he knows to do.

Same goes with computers, and even with Linux, especially in the growing cases where someone gets the bright idea to shanghai it onto someone's system without telling the user or offering proper training in how to use it. The user is left holding the quintessential bag in those cases, and crying out for help when say....sound or wireless doesn't work...is their only possible solution.

Sadly, some of those people are met with harsh words or snarky tones or are looked down upon.

[Ruuki]

http://www.google.com/

[Tristam Green]

Sadly, some of those people are met with harsh words or snarky tones or are looked down upon.


http://www.google.com/

I rest my case.

[philinux]

http://ubuntuforums.org/search.php

[RiceMonster]

I tend to agree. Most of the time, people just don't know and they probably couldn't find an answer. That's fine. However, when someone creates a thread like "what's the difference between Gnome and KDE" I really wonder if they've tried using google.

[Tristam Green]

I tend to agree. Most of the time, people just don't know and they probably couldn't find an answer. That's fine. However, when someone creates a thread like "what's the difference between Gnome and KDE" I really wonder if they've tried using google.

I'd say that's almost a too-extreme example but I know this happens, and I'd instead say that's pure laziness rather than requiring help :D

[snowpine]

I couldn't disagree more. These forums are THE place to ask if you have a question about Ubuntu. There are lots of friendly people here ready and willing to answer questions. Sure, some questions are going to come up again and again :) but if you're tired of answering them, just take a break for a while.

[samalex]

I'm kindof on the fence with this. We try to advocate Linux to everyone, including computer neophytes, but then when they come into the forums asking for basic help they get shunned. I agree with the notion that people need to do some research on their own, but being a community that invites everyone the community needs to be tolerant to even the most basic of questions. Granted you won't find this type of environment on IRC or Usenet, but I think that just speaks to the level of quality here on Ubuntu Forums.

With this said, I do have friends who've used computers for years and know better, yet they still send me questions they could've answered themselves with a simple Google search or reading the Man pages. For them I generally point them to the answer so they can discover it on their own... but for someone who does venture into the forum with just a few beans I don't mind helping them as much as I can no matter how basic of a question because that's what the community is here for. It only takes a few negative experiences for someone to turn their back on Linux all together.

Sam

[Frogs Hair]

I belong to other forums and I find the same thing , an example is system requirements one of the easiest things to find . Often people will write a long detailed description of their problem with out ever checking to see if there hardware is compatible with the software they are trying to use. I feel sorry for the kids that spend $60.00 on a game only to find out his or her graphics card can't run it.

When it comes to this forum I post if I can't find an up to date answer in a search and I do try to modify my search terms.

[cchhrriiss121212]

I think the opposite of this behavior can also have negative effects. I have seen a few threads where some experienced Windows user spends days crunching their way through outdated guides they found on google and then posts on the forum as a last resort. The problem then becomes harder to solve as the user has tinkered with every system file linked to the problem and understandably gives up from frustration saying something like "Linux is just not ready for the desktop".
Google is not always the answer when you are a complete beginner and can't tell relevant info from irrelevence.

[TheNessus]

*snip*

[RiceMonster]

What is this "god" thing you are referring to? I don't know such an object

I'm trying to decide if this is a joke or just a snide remark.

[sydbat]

What is this "god" thing you are referring to? I don't know such an object


I'm trying to decide if this is a joke or just a snide remark.It's an attempt to have a mod close the thread for discussing "religion".

[Tristam Green]

Agreed; I'd more think deletion of offending posts would be better in this case than destroying a well-spoken topic.

My 2c.

[TheNessus]

*snip*

[RiceMonster]

Your 2c's are most welcome.

But what if the OP offends me as an atheist?

There's a difference between being offended and looking for the slightest little thing to complain about because some irrelevant thing is not 100% inline with your world view.

It's just an expression - get over it, and read what the OP was actually trying to say.

[Grenage]

If different people asking the same questions drives you mad, I think you should avoid all product-specific forums.

[Tristam Green]

But what if the OP offends me as an atheist?

I don't know; probably the same kind of offense I take to people who have hair while I have none?

Stupid people and their healthy follicles.

[sydbat]

I don't know; probably the same kind of offense I take to people who have hair while I have none?

Stupid people and their healthy follicles.I am writing this as I run my fingers through my thick, healthy hair...):P

On topic, I think that encouraging people in as nice a way as possible to research their problem is best. However, there are those times that it is easier to just answer their question. It is a fine balance.

[whiskeylover]

Your 2c's are most welcome.

But what if the OP offends me as an atheist?

(no need to answer, let's cut the discussion here)


I'm an atheist too. But I was unable to find anything objectionable in the OP. Not even the "God helps..." sentence.

Please stop looking for stuff that isn't there. Over-sensitive people like you give all atheists a bad name, and a cult-like rep.

Now back to topic - this is a forum who's one of the many purposes is to help n00bs. If you're so upset about people not googling, you can either 1) ignore the post and move on. or 2) post a lmgtfy.com link and be done with it. I don't see a big issue here.

[irv]

Give a man a fish and he will be back for more fish. Teach a man to fish and he will catch his own. And you are off the hook. No punt intended.

[Ruuki]

I rest my case.

Harsh? That's where I usually solve my Ubuntu-related problems tbh.

[Sporkman]

One thing you must bear in mind is that not everybody is good at searching for stuff, particularly if the question or topic doesn't have any distinctive keywords that would narrow things down.

[aysiu]

I think the opposite of this behavior can also have negative effects. I have seen a few threads where some experienced Windows user spends days crunching their way through outdated guides they found on google and then posts on the forum as a last resort. The problem then becomes harder to solve as the user has tinkered with every system file linked to the problem and understandably gives up from frustration saying something like "Linux is just not ready for the desktop".
Google is not always the answer when you are a complete beginner and can't tell relevant info from irrelevence. I agree with cchhrriiss121212.

When I was a new Linux user, I gave myself a lot of trouble and unneeded frustration by trying to be self-sufficient and Googling everything instead of asking for help. I wasn't able to discern what was a good guide from a bad guide, and I ended up following a terrible tutorial that had me trying to set up a dual-boot with keeping the Windows boot loader on the MBR instead of using Grub (this was in the days before Wubi).

I also had absolutely no idea about package management. Why would I bother searching for how to install software in Linux if I had no concept that it should be a totally different approach than it is in Windows? Instead I went to websites and downloaded .tar.gz files and tried to read the README files and track down the dependencies myself. The README files, by the way, do not say "If you are a new user who has no clue, this isn't the way to install software. Read up on package managers."

I welcome new users to ask even what are considered by veteran users to be "dumb" questions. From the Ubuntu Forums Code of Conduct (which you all agreed to when you signed up):
RTFM, "Go look on google" are two inappropriate responses to a question. If you don't know the answer or don't wish to help, please say nothing instead of brushing off someone's question. Politely showing someone how you searched or obtained the answer to a question is acceptable, even encouraged. If you want everyone to help herself, why even post on the forums? This is a support forum. We are supposed to offer support. Please keep in mind, too, it's a lot easier to Google solutions if you know what to Google for and if you know what kinds of results are better than others. Most users do not know these things.

That said, what I will say is that users who ask for help should meet at least half-way those trying to help. I cannot stand users who say "I need help with _____" and then when other users try to offer suggestions (Try this, paste in this command, etc.) instead of saying "I tried that and this happened" the user says "How come no one will help me?!" That's not even accepting the help others are giving you. Unacceptable.

[irv]

Maybe we could lead people down the path of "Did you try Googling with (ubuntuforums.org: your problem search)" for a answer. And then if you don't find it there come back for more help.

[WinterRain]

We try to advocate Linux to everyone, including computer neophytes, but then when they come into the forums asking for basic help they get shunned.

Show me an example of this. I have never seen someone "shunned" when asking even the most basic of questions. People bend over backwards on this forum to help anyone and everyone. Take your negativity elsewhere.

But, I do wish people had the ability to use google for more than looking for prOn. Asking questions such as: "where can I download ubuntu?", or "how do I change my wallpaper?" is utterly ridiculous. But if someone does ask those questions, they will be met with friendly, helpful people.


Maybe we could lead people down the path of "Did you try Googling with (ubuntuforums.org: your problem search)" for a answer. And then if you don't find it there come back for more help.
Many times I have felt like doing the "let me google that for you" routine, as a quick search on google yielded the answer many times over. But I guess using search engines is fairly difficult for some people. Some people just have the brain capacity of a walnut. I feel sorry for these people.

[endotherm]

It's just an expression - get over it, and read what the OP was actually trying to say.

Indeed it is, but in this case an ironically mistyped one. God helps those who help themselves. the exhortation "God help..." implies that those who help themselves are doomed to failure, not more likely to succeed. I know what he's saying, but the irony is too much.

[yossell]

Backing up one or two other points:

I'm moderately experienced with ubuntu, but no expert. I find that trying to answer some of the beginner questions and help them out is a good way of deepening my knowledge. Of course, I google the questions, but because I have a little bit of knowledge, I'm able to filter the answers I get, or see what's essential in them, or see how to modify them - it's not clear, if I'd been a complete beginner, I would have understood the answers I'd googled.

I do get a little frustrated when people don't get back letting me know whether the advice worked, or nearly worked or what as that leaves me hanging.

[McRat]

This is not only a recurring topic, it's the MOST recurring topic in the history of Forum software, all brands, all years, all topics.

I'll tell you what. 95% or higher of first time Forum members make help threads that could have been solved with Search. If you are reading this, you are probably one of them.

If I were motivated and a prik, (one out of two ain't bad), I'd write a pHp hack to take any instance of "do a search" and change it to "I don't know the answer, and I don't have much patience for others."

If it is a huge concern on a Tech Board, make a really good and well maintained FAQ's to be searched instead of the main database. And a good board cover page that describes to new users how to use your brand of Forum software. The only example of a board like that is perhaps whenpigsflyforums.com. BTW - That doesn't work either, because they don't read the FAQ's either.

Pragmatically, folk end up learning by using. And they will screw up a lot when they start. And they will be frustrated and angry. Understand that is human nature and you're NOT going to fix it with a DO A SEARCH post.

It is normal and natural. Fighting it just gets the new member angry and the staff. Go with the flow.

[schauerlich]

I have no experience with car engines. If my car stopped working, I'd go "shoot!" and maybe open the hood to see if there was any smoke or anything. I might be able to point at a couple things and tell you what they are, but I have no idea how to fix anything. How would I feel about Fords if I went to a Ford-sponsored "we'll fix your car for free!" shop, and the people there just asked me why I didn't read up on cars and fix it myself? I probably wouldn't like Fords all that much, especially if I used to have a Chevy and their dealership would just fix all of my problems for me as long as I tossed a few bucks their way.

[pwnst*r]

Awesome thread.

[Cason]

Well, as a complete Ubuntu noob, maybe I can throw in my two cents?

First of all, I don't think it's realistic to assume that MOST new Ubuntu users are that dumb. I mean if we were that dumb, we'd have never been able to download and install Ubuntu to begin with. In the cases where someone who knows nothing about computers gets "shanghaied" as it were, that of all situations is most pitiable and it's simply cruel to tell them to Google it. :?

But in some cases, I think it might be a good idea to remember that it takes a deal of humility to ask for help in the first place. With me, for instance, I'm used to helping other people fix their computers, not asking someone to help me fix mine. I know Windows inside and out, every version since 3.1 (which I literally cut teeth on). I even help work tech support at my school sometimes. But I'm totally new to Linux/Ubuntu. You have no idea how much pride I had to swallow to finally ask for help after hours of trying to figure everything out all by myself via Google and forum searches. But one of the things I've absolutely come to love in my short relationship with Ubuntu is the fact that people in these forums help me without insulting my intelligence. To remove that quality from these forums would be a travesty.

Also of note, Google searching (and even forum searching) often brings up old solutions that actually cause more problems than they fix. I already know that from experience. I had to get help just undoing the mess I made with an old fix, when there was a perfectly good newer one that the searches hadn't revealed. I would have saved myself more than a day's worth of trouble if I'd have just asked for help instead of trying to be be Mr. Self-Reliance. ;)

I agree that there's no excuse for laziness, but after all, to even find this forum and create an account already shows at least a certain level of willingness to work to find a solution. So as a noob, I say don't start insulting noobs; we're not all absolute idiots. :)

[schauerlich]

Awesome thread.

5/5 would read again

[mkendall]

Give a man a fish and he will be back for more fish. Teach a man to fish and he will catch his own. And you are off the hook.

My experience has been, "Give a man a fish and he will be back for more fish; teach a man to fish and he will spend the entire time bitching about all he wants is a fricking fish, why don't you stop wasting his time and just give him one, and you suck as a fisherman."

[madjr]

while i agree some are plain lazy, most of those problems should not be present in the first place. You can say that some devs are lazy too when they release software with known bugs/showstoppers, that most of the time are not that hard to fix (even if it means excluding the "feature" for a while).

Even worse we sometimes include alpha or beta software in the distro, just for the sake of "innovation".

i say release when done and not before.

this goes to hardware makers too. A "known" hw maker is having antenna problems because of this

[McRat]

Awesome thread.

And a Thread always needs a Needle. :D

[mystmaiden]

I know I've probably asked questions here that could be found on google, usually its a case of not entering the exact right phrase in the google or forum search, other times its because the answers I found made no sense to me or assumed knowledge I do not have. There's a trust issue here too, I trust you guys to know what you're talking about, but if I find my answer on some forum I've never heard of, posted by some guy I don't know from Adam it makes me a bit nervous. I've had plenty of experience screwing something up worse by trying to fix it myself before asking.

I am truly grateful for the help I get here and all that I've learned.

[xpod]

Re: God help those who help themselves


I dont see what the big problem is. Besides, It`s not just searching for answers that help many new users to learn this stuff & more importantly remember it but also helping others in return with those seemingly simple things that get asked about over & over again can be a big part of it. That`s how a lot of those initial basics are soaked up for many during those first weeks and months and if nobody was still asking those simple, repetitive questions then there wouldn`t be anything the noobs could help other noobs with now would there.;)


I know I've probably asked questions here that could be found on google, usually its a case of not entering the exact right phrase in the google or forum search, other times its because the answers I found made no sense to me or assumed knowledge I do not have. There's a trust issue here too, I trust you guys to know what you're talking about, but if I find my answer on some forum I've never heard of, posted by some guy I don't know from Adam it makes me a bit nervous. I've had plenty of experience screwing something up worse by trying to fix it myself before asking.

I am truly grateful for the help I get here and all that I've learned.

Indeed.