Recommend a programing language?

[Dustin2128]

I'm planning on trying to learn a programming language from internet tutorials soon. The only ones I know (am fluent in) are html, python, and some pretty basic CSS. I'd like something that's simple, requiring minimal lines of code (pretty much anything classified as the polar opposite of COBOL). As far as purpose, I'd like to write some desktop software and games, maybe some basic web integration. From what I've read, perl seems to be what I'm looking for, but I'd like some input from people who have actually used these languages.

[Drenriza]

Subscribed and interested in the answer to the question.

[MichealH]

VB.NET

hehe

Have you tried Java, ASM?

[juancarlospaco]

Python

[Stupendoussteve]

Keep in mind perl is an interpreted language. This doesn't mean you shouldn't use it, only it may not be the best choice for games and desktop apps (you won't find many apps written IN perl, but there are many that use it). Another interpreted language which focuses on simplicity is Ruby. They also have quite a bit of documentation.

Another option which I would suggest is the standard C and C++. It is not necessarily simple to learn and use C or C++ but they are extremely powerful.

[Telengard C64]

Java. I'm not as experienced with it as I'd like to be, but I was able to write a graphical game from scratch in a couple of days as my first project with it. Java is very typeful though, so depending on your preferences it may not be ideal for you.

[Yarui]

If you want something that will work in a website, java tends to be the most popular choice for that these days. You can do CGI scripts in websites with almost any language, really, but if you want to keep it to a minimal number of lines of code, the most popular choice for that tends to be Python these days, but perl works too. If you want to use something that's a bit different Ruby is another option that is similar to perl and Python. If you want to do more with websites then PHP is an essential language. ASP is an alternative to PHP, but it's a Microsoft language, so if you have anything against Microsoft you probably won't want to use it. PHP is probably the more popular of the two. Javascript is also an essential language to know for web development, of course.

It really just depends on what language you want to try out first. The only way you will know which you prefer is to try them out and decide for yourself.

[Dustin2128]

hm... I think based on the available options, I'm going to try javascript. If I don't like it because it's too verbose or what have you, I'll just learn more python. Thanks for the recommendations!

ASP is an alternative to PHP, but it's a Microsoft language, so if you have anything against Microsoft you probably won't want to use it.
I'll also try to learn some php as a secondary language; I don't like it when microsoft attempts to rewrite the standards of the web.

[lostinxlation]

I use perl.
If you are OK with context interpretation, perl is great.

[Xianath]

JavaScript only works inside browsers, and then there's not much you can do with it. You also have to take into consideration browser incompatibilities (a.k.a. IE/Opera hell) and you will have to know HTML and CSS by heart to make the best use of the DOM model. My advice is, stay away from client-side web programming as much as you can. It will be a painful experience for as long as there's more than one major browser out there.

My recommendation is Java. Python looks like fun but unless you just want to goof around, Java is a much better choice for a long-term involvement, possibly professionally. Perl is anything but simple, and it's even harder to read than it is to write (especially someone else's code). VB.NET rivals Java in learning curve, capabilities and job opportunities, but lacks FOSS support when it comes to freely reusable third party libraries.

Grab a copy of Bruce Eckel's "Thinking in Java" from bruceeckel.com. It should be more than enough to get you started, and more. Get familiar with Eclipse (in the repos), and start hacking away. Good luck!

[Bachstelze]

My recommendation is Java. Python looks like fun but unless you just want to goof around, Java is a much better choice for a long-term involvement, possibly professionally.

Good to know that NASA, Google, and a lot of others are just goofing around!

http://python.org/about/success/

[surfer]

you already know python. there is not much point then in learning other interpreted languages such as perl or ruby (except, of course that they are interesting to look at, but they will not offer anything that python doesn't).

for games: ever looked at pygame (http://pygame.org)?

for web stuff: there are many frameworks in python; i like django (http://www.djangoproject.com/).

[Bachstelze]

you already know python. there is not much point then in learning other interpreted languages such as perl or ruby (except, of course that they are interesting to look at, but they will not offer anything that python doesn't).

Except that text manipulation in Python, while of course technically possible, is hell. Perl is a must-know for this.

[NightwishFan]

+1 to Python or Perl. I believe the game Frozen Bubble was written using Perl. Python is extensible with a lot of things, and may cause a lot less work in the end.

[Xianath]

Good to know that NASA, Google, and a lot of others are just goofing around!

http://python.org/about/success/

I should have expected fanboy backlash :) Linux too is used in the government, education, and oil pumps. That doesn't change the fact that "computer literacy" in the 90-percentile job add means "Windows and Office". Similarly, NASA an Google use Python, that doesn't make it any more than 1/4th as viable a career choice as Java. (http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html)

Python also suffers from the C++ bi-polar syndrome in that it's both procedural and object-oriented. C (I'd have said Pascal 15 years ago but now one should best leave the dead rest in peace) and Java are straight arrows in that sense. I wouldn't recommend C to a beginner.

Yes, Python is powerful, has a smooth learning curve and is used in some cool places. Yes, it's concise for "Hello World"-type applications (a.k.a. goofing around). No, it's not suitable for large scale, distributed enterprise applications. Or are all those enterprises who rely on Java wrong?

Python shares most if not all of its strengths and weaknesses with PHP. Any argument for Python should be valid for PHP as well, but PHP still offers twice as many jobs. Where I live, there is almost zero Python development going on, and Java pays better than PHP (VB.NET even better). This market works or outsources for IBM, Cisco, VMware, HP, Experian, DeLoitte, Sopra Group, Coca Cola, Siemens, Johnson Controls etc. It's no idle talk.

[NightwishFan]

Even if true that is not the point of the thread. :)

[Bachstelze]

What Xianath apparently doesn't understand is that there is a whole world between saying "language X is good" and saying "language Y is just for goofing around". So of course, when someone says "language Y is good", he assumes they're also saying "language X is bad".

Talk about a bipolar disorder... Also who's the fanboy, I wonder.

[fetuspuppet]

I think you should subscribe to the gcc mailer list and post this question there... A lot of C and C++ gus and people that are developing Java are on there, but you could get some unbiased advice.

I recently posed a similar question and they asked about if I wanted to make money from the games I made, what cpu architecture is in high demand right now and even other stuff I hadn't though about.

They're great guys and many of them are Professors.

[mickie.kext]

If you know Python, use it. If you want to learn something new, Java... or Ruby.

[Xianath]

What Xianath apparently doesn't understand is that there is a whole world between saying "language X is good" and saying "language Y is just for goofing around". So of course, when someone says "language Y is good", he assumes they're also saying "language X is bad".

Talk about a bipolar disorder... Also who's the fanboy, I wonder.

I quoted a professional study on language popularity as well as my own observations on the local software engineering market which seem to match the global picture. I also quoted pros and cons. As for being a fanboy well, I've been in my time through BASIC, 6502 Assembler, Pascal, C, C++, Perl, PHP, Bourne shell, X/HTML+CSS, JavaScript, ActionScript, 4D and, yes, Java. I've also spent the last ten years in the software business industry and have professional experience in one form or another with all but the first three. I've also lived through several acquisitions and mergers so factoring those in, I've worked in about ten different companies. And while I have seen enterprise-grade software written in Java, C, C++ and the .NET platform, with helper scripts in Perl and Bourne shell, and in one case a PHP web frontend, I am yet to see one written in Python.

At work, I have an Ubuntu desktop and a Mac laptop running Windows in a VM. It's similar at home. I use what I think is best for a particular purpose, hence I lash back at all fanboys who fanfare a certain technology as being the silver bullet. Nothing is, Brooks proved it three decades ago. I haven't found anything Python excels at as compared to, say, PHP. Hence my recommendation is to stick to PHP if the OP wants a scripted language for web development, especially at the beginner level. For OOP, Java is the natural choice (a fanboy would have said SmallTalk :) ). And of course C and C++ are a natural next step for certain fields such as OS, desktop or embedded development. I still don't see where Python fits. It may be ignorance but it's definitely not fanboyism.

[lisati]

Moved to "Programming Talk (http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=39)" - try the stickies

[RiceMonster]

Except that text manipulation in Python, while of course technically possible, is hell. Perl is a must-know for this.

I'm going to agree with you there. Perl is ideal in that area.

[ja660k]

dont mean to be pedantic; HTML is not a programming language, its markup.
and outside of your website JavaScript is useless, aside from creating firefox addons

learn C.
and you'll find that most other languages use alot of C functions.

and it is a good basis and gives a big step forward in alot of different directions.

[Simian Man]

I'll also try to learn some php as a secondary language; I don't like it when microsoft attempts to rewrite the standards of the web.
ASP is a server-side technology so it is, like PHP, used to generate web content. It has nothing to do with web standards because web browsers have no idea what ASP or PHP are - they never see them.


Another option which I would suggest is the standard C and C++. It is not necessarily simple to learn and use C or C++ but they are extremely powerful.
They are actually among the least powerful languages out there.


Python
+1



JavaScript only works inside browsers, and then there's not much you can do with it. You also have to take into consideration browser incompatibilities (a.k.a. IE/Opera hell) and you will have to know HTML and CSS by heart to make the best use of the DOM model.
That's the most common usage of Javascript, but it's not the only one. Much of Gnome-Shell is actually written in Javascript for example.




I should have expected fanboy backlash :) Linux too is used in the government, education, and oil pumps. That doesn't change the fact that "computer literacy" in the 90-percentile job add means "Windows and Office". Similarly, NASA an Google use Python, that doesn't make it any more than 1/4th as viable a career choice as Java. (http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html)
Nobody should consider working as a developer in the industry if they only know one language, regardless of how much that one is used. So a beginner's choice of first language is totally irrelevant to their future job prospects.


Python also suffers from the C++ bi-polar syndrome in that it's both procedural and object-oriented.
That's a good thing because Python will teach somebody much more about programming than Java. Python supports procedural and functional programming much better than Java. It even supports object-oriented programming better because it has more advanced features such as multiple inheritance and operator overloading. You can debate the merit of those features if you want, but it's still better to know what they are and how to apply them then not. Thus if I was going to hire someone who only knew one language, but knew it well, I'd pick someone who knew Python over Java. Technology changes; concepts don't.



Yes, Python is powerful, has a smooth learning curve and is used in some cool places. Yes, it's concise for "Hello World"-type applications (a.k.a. goofing around). No, it's not suitable for large scale, distributed enterprise applications. Or are all those enterprises who rely on Java wrong?
Like Bachstelze said, A having some quality does not preclude B from sharing that quality. Saying Java is good for large scale development doesn't imply Python is not. Besides, unless I'm mistaken the OP was asking about "some desktop software and games", not distributed enterprise applications.

You may insist you're not a fanboy, but trying to push your favorite thing regardless of whether it's well suited to the person's requirements is classic fanboy stuff.


learn C.
and you'll find that most other languages use alot of C functions.

What are you talking about? Even if that was true, it's a horrible reason to choose a language.

[evstevemd]

Many Have thrown their cents and here are mine:
Web App: PHP/JS (JQuery Stuffs make AJAX/JS funny)
Desktop: C++ (with alot of wxWidgets)

I also agree with Java. Swinging between Web app and Desktop is really breeze :)

[slooksterpsv]

Here's my 2 cents:

wxPython - Great language, great for creating Desktop Application (you already know python, learn a Library).
PHP - for web stuff, dynamic pages can go a long way.

If not wxPython, then I would suggest taking a look at Gambas for quick desktop apps, it's not hard to learn, there's just little documentation on Gambas, but it's almost Visual Basic for Linux.

Otherwise, C++ and QT - a lot of programs i use use QT. Well Eclipse uses java so java would be good too.

EDIT:

Does anyone use FLTK still? I actually like that one cause of its simplicity.

[Telengard C64]

Just don't try to learn Java and Javascript side by side or you will probably go insane. The two names may sound similar, but the languages are vastly different.

Java is an object oriented language which is well suited to both desktop applications and web based applications. Most modern operating systems either come with the software necessary to execute Java programs or else it is easily installable. Java is strongly typeful, meaning that it actively prevents you from using specific data types contexts where they don't make sense. The disadvantage of this protection is that you will spend more time working around type conversions which are done automatically in other languages. The advantage is that once you have got your code working it will be much more robust and probably more resistant to certain kinds of attack. The thing I learned from my own project is that if the Java compiler complains about your code then you are most definitely doing something wrong.

Javascript usually runs on the client side in your web browser. I have heard of stand alone Javascript engines, but don't know enough to comment about whether they are suitable for any particular purpose. Javascript is very messy in the sense that there are many ways to do any particular thing, but most of them don't work as expected or else have serious limitations. You should be able to accomplish anything in Javascript that you can in any other language, but it all depends on the DOM. The DOM itself is kind of a pseudo-standard which is implemented differently on different browsers. To avoid the complexity of making your Javascript code work on different browsers you will probably end up choosing a framework (I think that is what it's called) which will provide high level objects for your code to call upon. The maintainers of the framework take it upon themselves to make those objects usable on a variety of browsers. The other thing is that Javascript was not intended to be object oriented from the start, so it doesn't look much like OOP code in any other language. Javascript doesn't seem to care about data types, so unless you impose discipline on yourself your code will be buggy and vulnerable.

C is probably the most well known, portable, and widely used language. Most (not all) modern languages are either indirect descendants of C or share some commonalities with it. Learn C and you will have a much easier time with other languages. C is not strongly typeful, and generally allows you to feed any kind of data to any kind of function. This is a very powerful and useful concept in C programming, but misuse of it guarantees buggy and vulnerable programs. C is great for small command line tools, but obviously it can be taken much further than that. I find that anything I would do in C can probably be done more easily with Bash scripts, although compiled C programs run much faster.

C++ is like C on steroids. It basically enhances C to support object oriented programming and includes many new macros and libraries. I never got far enough with C++ to say much more about it, because it was damn difficult to make even simple programs compile and run.

Python is a language I've never used, but it seems to be included with every Linux distro. Since OP already knows Python I'll just leave it at that.

Perl is a language I had to use in school for a project. Perl programs read like gibberish to me, so I hope to avoid it for the rest of my life.

PHP is intended for creating dynamic web content and probably isn't well suited for any purpose beyond the server. I'll leave it for someone else to debate whether or how to code desktop applications in PHP (can it even be done at all?)

Everything I've said here is true, but these are still my own subjective opinions derived from my own experiences. Fans of the languages mentioned will undoubtedly find much to quibble about, and perhaps justifiably so. I don't claim to be an expert in any case, so if you are serious you'll consult people with more depth of experience about the languages you are interested in

To sum up, any language you look at will have strengths and weaknesses. After you pin down exactly what your needs are it all boils down to what you feel comfortable with. Consult a book or wiki about the languages you think sound interesting to decide for yourself whether or not they are good candidates for your needs.

More discussion: http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/programming-9/your-opinions-of-the-best-combination-of-programming-languages-to-learn-813373/

[evstevemd]

Just don't try to learn Java and Javascript side by side or you will probably go insane. The two names may sound similar, but the languages are vastly different.

Java is an object oriented language which is well suited to both desktop applications and web based applications. Most modern operating systems either come with the software necessary to execute Java programs or else it is easily installable. Java is strongly typeful, meaning that it actively prevents you from using specific data types contexts where they don't make sense. The disadvantage of this protection is that you will spend more time working around type conversions which are done automatically in other languages. The advantage is that once you have got your code working it will be much more robust and probably more resistant to certain kinds of attack. The thing I learned from my own project is that if the Java compiler complains about your code then you are most definitely doing something wrong.

Javascript usually runs on the client side in your web browser. I have heard of stand alone Javascript engines, but don't know enough to comment about whether they are suitable for any particular purpose. Javascript is very messy in the sense that there are many ways to do any particular thing, but most of them don't work as expected or else have serious limitations. You should be able to accomplish anything in Javascript that you can in any other language, but it all depends on the DOM. The DOM itself is kind of a pseudo-standard which is implemented differently on different browsers. To avoid the complexity of making your Javascript code work on different browsers you will probably end up choosing a framework (I think that is what it's called) which will provide high level objects for your code to call upon. The maintainers of the framework take it upon themselves to make those objects usable on a variety of browsers. The other thing is that Javascript was not intended to be object oriented from the start, so it doesn't look much like OOP code in any other language. Javascript doesn't seem to care about data tyes, so unless you impose discipline on yourself your code will be buggy and vulnerable.

C is probably the most well known, portable, and widely used language. Most (not all) modern languages are either indirect descendants of C or share some commonalities with it. Learn C and you will have a much easier time with other languages. C is not strongly typeful, and generally allows you to feed any kind of data to any kind of function. This is a very powerful and useful concept in C programming, but misuse of it guarantees buggy and vulnerable programs. C is great for small command line tools, but obviously it can be taken much further than that. I find that anything I would do in C can probably be done more easily with Bash scripts, although compiled C programs run much faster.

C++ is like C on steroids. It basically enhances C to support object oriented programming and includes many new macros and libraries. I never got far enough with C++ to say much more about it, because it was damn difficult to make even simple programs compile and run.

Python is a language I've never used, but it seems to be included with every Linux distro. Since OP already knows Python I'll just leave it at that.

Perl is a language I had to use in school for a project. Perl programs read like gibberish to me, so I hope to avoid it for the rest of my life.

PHP is intended for creating dynamic web content and probably isn't well suited for any purpose beyond the server. I'll leave it for someone else to debate whether or how to code desktop applications in PHP (can it even be done at all?)

Everything I've said here is true, but these are still my own subjective opinions derived from my own experiences. Fans of the languages mentioned will undoubtedly find much to quibble about, and perhaps justifiably so. I don't claim to be an expert in any case, so if you are serious you'll consult people with more depth of experience about the languages you are interested in

To sum up, any language you look at will have strengths and weaknesses. After you pin down exactly what your needs are it all boils down to what you feel comfortable with. Consult a book or wiki about the languages you think sound interesting to decide for yourself whether or not they are good candidates for your needs.

More discussion: http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/programming-9/your-opinions-of-the-best-combination-of-programming-languages-to-learn-813373/
JavaScript OOP is nightmare. I have never been able to grasp it, till now.

[NightwishFan]

You can use javascript for a lot more such as with Gobject. The Gnome Shell is an example.

[v1ad]

python.

java will make you hate java forever. its an annoying language.

[ratcheer]

Ruby is extremely cool.

Tim

[km0r3]

you already know python. there is not much point then in learning other interpreted languages such as perl or ruby (except, of course that they are interesting to look at, but they will not offer anything that python doesn't).


Well, I've learned Ruby after handling Python and I can say that this experience also affects that I write better Python programs nowadays.

[Some Penguin]

I'm planning on trying to learn a programming language from internet tutorials soon. The only ones I know (am fluent in) are html, python, and some pretty basic CSS. I'd like something that's simple, requiring minimal lines of code (pretty much anything classified as the polar opposite of COBOL). As far as purpose, I'd like to write some desktop software and games, maybe some basic web integration. From what I've read, perl seems to be what I'm looking for, but I'd like some input from people who have actually used these languages.

What *sorts* of desktop software, games and web integration? That's pretty vague. 'nano' and OpenOffice are both desktop software; Zork, Quake and Battle for Wesnoth are all games; integration with what services?

The more you need fairly complex but commonly-used components such as GUI toolkits and 3D rendering, the more you should look at existing libraries.

Perl can be very nice, and has a formidable selection of available modules at CPAN. It does require a bit of care, since the number of built-in types is fairly low and flexibility is high, so the interpreter is less capable of detecting various classes of logical errors that might be caught with a stricter typing system.

[jase21]

Considering what you already know, its better to focus on Ruby and JavaScript.

[fetuspuppet]

Here's a link to the "lists" that I was talking about.

http://gcc.gnu.org/lists.html

[soltanis]

I use perl.
If you are OK with context interpretation, perl is great.

i.e. If you are okay with your programming language acting more like a natural language then you should use perl.

[phrostbyte]

Haskell! Duh. :p

[shadylookin]

javascript is an interesting language though I'm not particularly fond of it. With ajax and python with cgi you could do some cool stuff. Though not so useful for desktop apps or games(though it has been done). I would rather drink molten rock than use it without JQuery though.

[dv3500ea]

The other thing is that Javascript was not intended to be object oriented from the start, so it doesn't look much like OOP code in any other language.

That's incorrect, javascript was always intended to be an object oriented (and functional) language. What confuses people is the use of the pseudo-classical new operator with constructor functions. They should really have just stuck with some sort of copy method.

Personally, I would use ruby. It is similar to perl and python but has a cleaner syntax and much nicer object orientation. There are plenty of extensions for creating GUIs or games (eg. shoes, gtk, rubygame) and TK is supported in the standard library. It also has lots of web programming modules in its standard library.

[fallenshadow]

Well the only languages I know is Visual Basic, C++ and I have a limited knowledge of it. I don't feel ready yet to learn a new language until I have a decent knowledge of C++.

So far I have to say developing (GUI) apps with C++ is a pain in the a$$. Its so hard to do simple things!! :(

I might have a bash at learning Python if I get any better with C++.

[wmcbrine]

Java ... actively prevents youSorry for the quotemine; I just thought this summed up the language nicely. :D

[shadylookin]

Sorry for the quotemine; I just thought this summed up the language nicely. :D

What's wrong with strong statically typed languages?

[wmcbrine]

.

[nvteighen]

Ok, the OP knows Python... Perfect. Now try a low-level language so you learn 1) to appreciate what Python and high-level languages have, 2) to appreciate what low-level languages have and 3) give you some insight on when each language is better for a task.

I'm convinced the ideal path for a "generic" learner is Python -> C -> task-specific learning. After the second language you'll need a couple of hours to learn other mainstream languages like Perl, Ruby, C++, Java, etc. They're all pretty much the same, believe me. When you come to Lisp, Haskell or Forth you'll understand why I say that.

[steevk]

Personally, I would use ruby. It is similar to perl and python but has a cleaner syntax and much nicer object orientation. There are plenty of extensions for creating GUIs or games (eg. shoes, gtk, rubygame) and TK is supported in the standard library. It also has lots of web programming modules in its standard library.

As one of the maintainers of Shoes, I agree. :)

For anyone who's curious, here's an example of a small GUI in Shoes:


Shoes.app do
background "#EFC"
border "#BE8", :strokewidth => 6
stack(:margin => 12) do
para "Enter your name"
flow do
edit_line
button "OK" do
alert("Thanks!")
end
end
end
end

This generates a GUI that looks like this:

http://github.com/ashbb/shoes_tutorial_walkthrough/raw/master/imgs/012.jpg

That says "Thanks!" When you click the button.

[slooksterpsv]

As one of the maintainers of Shoes, I agree. :)

For anyone who's curious, here's an example of a small GUI in Shoes:


Shoes.app do
background "#EFC"
border "#BE8", :strokewidth => 6
stack(:margin => 12) do
para "Enter your name"
flow do
edit_line
button "OK" do
alert("Thanks!")
end
end
end
end

This generates a GUI that looks like this:

http://github.com/ashbb/shoes_tutorial_walkthrough/raw/master/imgs/012.jpg

That says "Thanks!" When you click the button.

That is so cool! For that few lines, the structure, I like that, Shoes you say? Hmmm... off to google I go...

[steevk]

You can find the site at http://shoes.heroku.com/


We'll be releasing Shoes 3.0 on Whyday, which is the 19th of August.

[wkhasintha]

C++

[d3v1150m471c]

you might as well just go ahead and learn c++

[Simian Man]

C++


you might as well just go ahead and learn c++

Your well-reasoned and clearly articulated arguments should be enough to sway anybody!

[slavik]

Keep in mind perl is an interpreted language. This doesn't mean you shouldn't use it, only it may not be the best choice for games and desktop apps (you won't find many apps written IN perl, but there are many that use it). Another interpreted language which focuses on simplicity is Ruby. They also have quite a bit of documentation.

Another option which I would suggest is the standard C and C++. It is not necessarily simple to learn and use C or C++ but they are extremely powerful.
Interestingly enough, OpenGL performance in Perl is much faster than in Python.

[slooksterpsv]

Interestingly enough, OpenGL performance in Perl is much faster than in Python.

Haha, you're joking right? Are you for real? - heading to google - wow, especially vertex arrays, nice.

My 2 Cents again:

C++ isn't bad, I recommend a book for C++ though:
C++ Programming for the Absolute Beginner - awesome book, takes you through pretty much every nook and cranny. I can't remember how much of the Standard Library it goes through. I think a long drawn-out explanation on Templates.

[raf-kig]

C, C++, Java or even Perl. Definitely not the latest flash-in-the-pan: Python 3.x.