to build or not to build..

[mystmaiden]

I currently have a Sony Vaio desktop, the processor was built to run xp so you can tell its getting old! It badly needs more ram, but at this point I keep thinking I could buy a new motherboard or motherboard/cpu combo for the price of the ram or a bit more. If I build a new system, it'll have to be bits at a time. The Sony runs fine except for being a bit sluggish (and kinda ugly after all these years, lol). I'm not a gamer so I don't need a cutting edge system, just one beefy enough to run Poser and Gimp without major thumb twiddling time in between tasks. I'm always on a limited budget so that's a consideration. I plan to keep running Karmic for awhile.

Thoughts, anyone? Motherboard recommendations or places to buy good cheap ram ?? (so far I'm eyeing a processor that's so out of my budget, like a kid with a Christmas catalog their folks can't afford)

mystmaiden

[SaintDanBert]

Pick a distro -- I'm partial to *-buntu (kubuntu, Ubuntu, etc) family.

Boot the live CD for that distro on the hardware that you have.
You might find that it works just fine for a "white collar" workstation -- word processing, web browsing, email, the odd DVD or music CD, filing your digital pix, etc. I've run linux on a real
live 386 (came before 486 and Pentium everything). Worked just fine.

~~~ 0;-Dan

[Roust]

Last year I was in a bad way, money was tight and my brand new laptop had just been stolen from my car. I knew that I could have conceivably put together a machine for a reasonable price, but was not confident enough in my skills to not mess it up and waste some money, plus I didn't really have the time to dig around and find the best best deals.

What I did worked out really well. I decided based on my budget what I would be willing to pay for a computer system or laptop.

I posted a Want-to-buy on my local Craigslist asking for people to show me what they could build/sell me for that money. I got a ton of responses right away, alot of them were people trying to dump old dell pre-mades and such, but a few were really good systems. In the end a fellow who ran a small computer store built me a killer rig with some new pieces at cost, some used pieces and such. He even provided some tech support over the next couple weeks.

[chessnerd]

For RAM, check Newegg (http://www.newegg.com/Store/Category.aspx?Category=17&name=Memory) and MemoryX (http://memoryx.com/), they generally offer good prices. If you are running Windows, MemoryX has a utility that will tell you what kind of RAM your computer has. Crucial's website has the same thing, but they only sell Crucial memory...

I've upgraded RAM on four systems now. Every single one performs much better now. Just upgrading RAM should give your computer some extra oomph, but a whole new configuration would do even more, of course.

For hardware, Newegg is the best place. They have mobo/CPU combos here: http://www.newegg.com/Store/ComboDeals.aspx?ComboStoreID=1&name=CPUs-Motherboards

I'm not sure your case would support a standard mobo though. Some older cases were designed with proprietary mounting configurations, so it might not mount a standard ATX board. However, you could check with the model number, or look inside the case, and see what type of motherboard it has. If the current one is a standard ATX or micro-ATX then it would probably work.

Best of luck.

[mystmaiden]

Thanks for the replies.


Pick a distro -- I'm partial to *-buntu (kubuntu, Ubuntu, etc) family.

I'm loving Karmic, no need to change distros at all. I have puppy installed on another machine and a bunch of live cds of other stuff for when I get the urge to play around with something different.

Roust - the craiglist idea is definitely a thought but I'm a little leery of it for a couple of reasons, like parts warranty issues and logistics mostly. Very little on Craigslist ever seems to be any where near where I live. Still, worth checking out though. I'm pretty sure part of my reluctance is a bad case of I-want-to-build-itis, nevermind that I've never played with new computer parts beyond the odd stick of ram!!

[Moozillaaa]

Now is the time to buy, with money tight everywhere (that makes it a buyer's market).

DO YOUR RESEARCH!!! Even with new, compatible parts, you can have problems that are difficult to determine, and for which there's little help from manufacturers' tech support - responses like, "Well, the OTHER GUY's part must be broken". UGH. Ask me how I know that!

If you DO build, PM me. I have a 1 month old board that I've just determined is good, and my problem (if there's actually anything wrong), is in my new CPU or ram... UGH...

[Spike-X]

If I build a new system, it'll have to be bits at a time.

Noooooo. Save your money until you have enough to buy everything at once. Prices are always falling, so by the time you have enough to buy, say, a CPU, that motherboard you bought three months ago will be thirty bucks cheaper. Or, you'll be able to buy a better one for the same price.

[mystmaiden]

Thanks so much everyone. Lots of good points made in this thread, excellent input.

As for a case, I think a new one would be a must have at this point - this one looks pretty ratty and my main complaint about this computer has been the tiny case with everything crammed in there - it definitely runs hotter than I'd like. Right now, there's the cpu fan and power supply fan. If I got new ram instead of building though, I could pull the floppy drive and pop a fan in there maybe.

I had a look at Newegg's Intel cpu/mb combos but I'm kind of partial to AMD - Intel is a bit spendy, too.

Buying everything at once - every time I try and save up for something some odd disaster or another befalls and 'Poof' there go my savings! Have to have at least the mb, cpu and ram all at once though for warranty/testing purposes but eventually I'd like to have new optical drives and a bigger hard drive (and new speakers!!). I don't want much!

Spike you make a good point about prices falling. I'll book mark the cpu I was looking at and keep an eye on it.

When I think about all the new stuff I need - the ram upgrade is looking better. I've spent the last little while trying to figure out the deal on matched sticks of ram is, I honestly don't understand it.

[L4U]

mystmaiden,

What specs do you have now and what specs are you wishing for?

[Moozillaaa]

Thanks so much everyone. Lots of good points made in this thread, excellent input.

As for a case, I think a new one would be a must have at this point - this one looks pretty ratty and my main complaint about this computer has been the tiny case with everything crammed in there - it definitely runs hotter than I'd like. Right now, there's the cpu fan and power supply fan. If I got new ram instead of building though, I could pull the floppy drive and pop a fan in there maybe.

I had a look at Newegg's Intel cpu/mb combos but I'm kind of partial to AMD - Intel is a bit spendy, too.

Buying everything at once - every time I try and save up for something some odd disaster or another befalls and 'Poof' there go my savings! Have to have at least the mb, cpu and ram all at once though for warranty/testing purposes but eventually I'd like to have new optical drives and a bigger hard drive (and new speakers!!). I don't want much!

Spike you make a good point about prices falling. I'll book mark the cpu I was looking at and keep an eye on it.

When I think about all the new stuff I need - the ram upgrade is looking better. I've spent the last little while trying to figure out the deal on matched sticks of ram is, I honestly don't understand it .

Case 'looks'? Hmm... who needs to be impressed? The air molecules?

And speaking of those little guys going through the tiny case, instead of a big case, there's this guy whose law they must abide by - Bernoulli. Bernoulli told those guys that in a small computer case, they weren't allowed to loiter - they'd have to 'git along' like little doggies - and quick-like. Only in a big case were they allowed to loiter and hang around in case corners, hoarding up heat and dust and such.

Bernoulli allows planes to fly too, and gasoline to mix in carburetors so we can drive, etc.

[CharlesA]

Tiny cases can make it pretty difficult to swap out/add components. I know, since I've got one machine in a microATX case and it's a pain in the butt to get access to the connectors on the mobo due to how everything is crammed in there.

As for small case vs large case, as long as you have good air flow you are fine either way. Personally I am a fan (pun intended :p) of large(r) cases that have 240mm fans in the front (with no lights).

[cascade9]

I currently have a Sony Vaio desktop, the processor was built to run xp so you can tell its getting old! It badly needs more ram, but at this point I keep thinking I could buy a new motherboard or motherboard/cpu combo for the price of the ram or a bit more. If I build a new system, it'll have to be bits at a time. The Sony runs fine except for being a bit sluggish (and kinda ugly after all these years, lol). I'm not a gamer so I don't need a cutting edge system, just one beefy enough to run Poser and Gimp without major thumb twiddling time in between tasks. I'm always on a limited budget so that's a consideration. I plan to keep running Karmic for awhile.

Thoughts, anyone? Motherboard recommendations or places to buy good cheap ram ?? (so far I'm eyeing a processor that's so out of my budget, like a kid with a Christmas catalog their folks can't afford)

mystmaiden

Nice idea, but it wont fly...unless your computer is newer than it sounds.

New motherbaord + CPU = new RAM (your SD RAM or DDR1 wont run in any new motherboard around now), new video card (unless you get onboard video), probably a new power supply as well, and possibly a new case (sometimes manufacturers use nonstandard motherboard mounting holes).

Probably upgrading your current RAM, and/or CPU is as much as you can really get without changing power supply, getting all new RAM, etc..

Location would help as well, a good place to get parts in the US can be impossible for people in other countries to use.


Case 'looks'? Hmm... who needs to be impressed? The air molecules?

And speaking of those little guys going through the tiny case, instead of a big case, there's this guy whose law they must abide by - Bernoulli. Bernoulli told those guys that in a small computer case, they weren't allowed to loiter - they'd have to 'git along' like little doggies - and quick-like. Only in a big case were they allowed to loiter and hang around in case corners, hoarding up heat and dust and such.

Bernoulli allows planes to fly too, and gasoline to mix in carburetors so we can drive, etc.

Bernoulli's principle says nothing of the sort.


Tiny cases can make it pretty difficult to swap out/add components. I know, since I've got one machine in a microATX case and it's a pain in the butt to get access to the connectors on the mobo due to how everything is crammed in there.

As for small case vs large case, as long as you have good air flow you are fine either way. Personally I am a fan (pun intended :p) of large(r) cases that have 240mm fans in the front (with no lights).

I think you mean 120mm fans, I've never seen a case with a 240/250 intake fan. Most cases are about 8 inches wide (200mm aprox), which is quite a bit less than a 240mm fan ;)

I try to get cases with airfilters myself, to stop messy and heat inducing dust from getting into the case.

[chiliman]

You might want to consider the power supply too. The Sony vaio box i used to have ~2003-4 had a pretty lame power supply in it, and capacitors loose their efficiency over time. The current your PSU outputs is essentially the blood of your PC. So having a power supply not outputting enough current can cause problems if the hardware isn't getting proper amount power. You wont need a huge PSU but getting a new one for 30USD couldn't hurt.

[Moozillaaa]

Bernoulli's principle says nothing of the sort.

You're right; Moozillaaa's principle says that.

Same airflow in a big case will allow areas of 'static' air = heat/dust accumulation.

'Tiny' case (as he refers to it), has no areas devoid of air movement.

;)

[Riffer]

I'm with the upgrade Ram crowd. Having built many a system myself, its far better to have all the components at once. Plus throwing in a gig of RAM is cheap.

A few months ago I got an old laptop (1.8 mhz processor, 512 megs Ram), I added a gig of RAM to it and is now giving yeoman service to us. Yes it takes a few seconds to load some of the bigger programs (Ooo, and Gimp, but once up even these programs run fairly snappy. Total cost $70 cdn.

If you start a build you have to make sure your power supply is adequate or you will screw your MB, cost around a $100 for a decent one. Then your motherboard and CPU, a reasonable set is $200 to $300. Then you need RAM, you'll need 2 gigs at least to start $50 to $100. While you may get some of these components cheaper, you must be prepared to spend $300 to $500 (prices are cdn) just to get a bare bones system up and running.

Notes: You may think that your present power supply is good enough, but new systems require more power between 400 to 600 watts for a run of the mill system. Chances are that your present system is using a 300 to 400 watt power supply. There are a few sites out there that can help you decide how big your supply needs to be.
Since your present system was built RAM has changed, the chances of being able to use your old RAM is about nil.
I haven't talked about your HD. While you can swap it over its probably to small for what you want. And again since its older it means its slower, meaning your new system will not be as snappy as you hope.
Also its been my experience that when add older components to a new system you run the risk of them failing. I don't know why they just do. Network cards are the worst, but I've had every type of component fail on me. Bare that in mind.

Whatever you decide Good Luck

[CharlesA]

I think you mean 120mm fans, I've never seen a case with a 240/250 intake fan. Most cases are about 8 inches wide (200mm aprox), which is quite a bit less than a 240mm fan ;)

I try to get cases with airfilters myself, to stop messy and heat inducing dust from getting into the case.

D'oh! It was only a 200mm fan. O_o

Case: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811119197

[mystmaiden]

Nice discussion everyone, this is great I really appreciate the replies!


Case 'looks'? Hmm... who needs to be impressed? The air molecules?That would be me. Probably silly, but I'd love to have a nice black case (tired of sony grey!!) with enough room for extra fans or an extra hard drive if I want to later on.


And speaking of those little guys going through the tiny case, instead of a big case, there's this guy whose law they must abide by - Bernoulli. Bernoulli told those guys that in a small computer case, they weren't allowed to loiter - they'd have to 'git along' like little doggies - and quick-like. Only in a big case were they allowed to loiter and hang around in case corners, hoarding up heat and dust and such.
er... huh?


As for small case vs large case, as long as you have good air flow you are fine either way. Personally I am a fan (pun intended ) of large(r) cases that have 240mm fans in the front (with no lightsThis one has essentially no air flow, its really tiny and so crammed together. I really like a nice roomy case - front lights I can definitely pass on. Love the case you posted the link for though.

L4U, I have the sony, but with a cheap replacement motherboard (GE PR0 M-2 version 3) AMD Athlon XP processor and an oddball amount of ram (768 mb). The processor I'd love to have - AMD PhenomII X4 955 Black Edition (AM3) - motherboard, I haven't settled on one yet.

I totally agree about the new power supply for a new build. I shouldn't have left that off the list. No point in frying new equipment with a lame ps.

I hadn't thought of replacing the power supply on the Sony though, good point Riffer and Chiliman. I'm pretty sure that and some ram would make a big difference.

[MooPi]

I'm always on the lookout for good parts at low prices. Recently caught a nice case from NewEgg for 29$ I pieced together everything for just under 200$. It's a dual core AMDcpu, 1gig ram, 250 gig hard drive and dvd-rw drive. Not what I would call a whizzbanger but it will do all the things you mentioned in your first post easily and more. So if you have 300 to spend then you could essentially build something even faster if you were patient.As a bench for how fast this simple desktop is I can rip and encode a full length DVD in half the time it takes to view. I think fast enough for your purposes. Keep your eyes peeled for NewEgg and Frys and TigerDirect specials. You never know what you'll stumble upon.

[CharlesA]

I'll be getting that same case when/if I decide to rebuild my server with a quad core CPU.

I like it on my desktop and I love that you can turn off the lights.

I am eyeballing this one too (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811119196), since it has handles, and you can turn off the lights.

[cascade9]

You're right; Moozillaaa's principle says that.

Same airflow in a big case will allow areas of 'static' air = heat/dust accumulation.

'Tiny' case (as he refers to it), has no areas devoid of air movement.

;)

It doesnt work like that. ;) How 'static' the air is has very little to do with dust buildup- if it did, then CPU heatsinks/fans would always be nice and clean.


D'oh! It was only a 200mm fan. O_o

Case: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811119197

Not my sort of case, its a bit busy for me. I'd probably rather have 2x120mm fans myself as well, but a 200mm fan should be nice.....provided it spins at low voltage.


Nice discussion everyone, this is great I really appreciate the replies!

That would be me. Probably silly, but I'd love to have a nice black case (tired of sony grey!!) with enough room for extra fans or an extra hard drive if I want to later on.

er... huh?

This one has essentially no air flow, its really tiny and so crammed together. I really like a nice roomy case - front lights I can definitely pass on. Love the case you posted the link for though.

L4U, I have the sony, but with a cheap replacement motherboard (GE PR0 M-2 version 3) AMD Athlon XP processor and an oddball amount of ram (768 mb). The processor I'd love to have - AMD PhenomII X4 955 Black Edition (AM3) - motherboard, I haven't settled on one yet.

GE Pro M2 is actually a itnel motherboard as far as I can see-

http://www.asrock.com/mb/overview.asp?Model=GE%20PRO-M2

If you do go for a Phemon II X4, IMO, get a ATI 870 northbidge and SB850 southbridge chipset motherboard (SATAIII support). USB 3.0 should be avaible on most of the motherboards in that specification range as well.

[mystmaiden]

MooPi - sounds you did really well with your build!

CharlesA - another really nice case there.





GE PRO M-2 is an intel motherboard as far as I can tell
Yea, I saw that today myself. We had it installed at the local tech shop when the original fried, guess that's what I get for telling them how tight my budget was at the time! That was back when I knew even less about computers than I do now. They could have sold me anything and I'd have been grateful just to be back online. I'm surprised that it works as well as it does with the AMD processor. But I wonder what that means in terms of ram and power supply upgrades? Am I beatin' a dead horse?

Edited to add - hmm change the cpu, or change the board. I found a used cpu on ebay that is compatible and a bit of an upgrade, for something like $7.68 and the seller has good percentages on customer satisfaction. Pretty tempting.

[mystmaiden]

This is the cpu I stumbled on, think it would work or is worthwhile with the GE PRO M-2 board? I surfed around looking for a new one but its too out of date I think to find anything but used. It would certainly help keep costs down.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220628448162&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

[Moozillaaa]

And speaking of those little guys going through the tiny case, instead of a big case, there's this guy whose law they must abide by - Bernoulli. Bernoulli told those guys that in a small computer case, they weren't allowed to loiter - they'd have to 'git along' like little doggies - and quick-like. Only in a big case were they allowed to loiter and hang around in case corners, hoarding up heat and dust and such.



er... huh?

:rolleyes:

Not too sharp I guess...

If there's not much room in the case, the air will 'turn over' (cycle through) quickly. If there's lots of void (empty space) in the case, the air will not move through quickly.

[DJonsson2008]

I've Xubuntu running on a GIGABYTE GA-D510UD Atom 330 combo. It was an easy build. These days with the combo/price of the board at 70$-60$ + the cost of 2 to 4gb Ram, its an very economical XP and *buntu friendly option.

I hear Ubuntu Netbook is 'optimized' for this flavour of Intel hardware, the Netbook live CD in fact runs beautifully on this machine
although I've not installed it on it.

Its a low power demanding board so one does not have to upgrade their power supply, in the end it was a considerable upgrade from Pentium 3. Not good for a gamer but certainly meets the needs of a living room DAW, radio streaming, webmail checking machine much better than the Pentium did.

Drawback on this mini-itx is expansion in the video department, other brands though pack a similar combo with Nvidia onboard and or more pci
pci-slots for that sort of thing.

In the end I bought a mini-itx case for it, but the board is so small it seems a bit of basic sheet metal work could fit in it just about any
case.

[DJonsson2008]

I should of added that the GIGABYTE GA-D510UD does have 1 PCI slot so there would be room for a video card, I used the slot for an M-Audio 1040 DAW interface. With the Intel chipset I expect a smooth upgrade to an Intel SSD solid state HD sometime in the near future when the prices drop. Presently I run an old IDE drive on it. I'd suspect the SSD drive would pack a considerably performance improvement on this setup.

[cascade9]

Yea, I saw that today myself. We had it installed at the local tech shop when the original fried, guess that's what I get for telling them how tight my budget was at the time! That was back when I knew even less about computers than I do now. They could have sold me anything and I'd have been grateful just to be back online. I'm surprised that it works as well as it does with the AMD processor. But I wonder what that means in terms of ram and power supply upgrades? Am I beatin' a dead horse?

There is no way that an AMD CPU is running in a socket 478 intel motherbaord.



Edited to add - hmm change the cpu, or change the board. I found a used cpu on ebay that is compatible and a bit of an upgrade, for something like $7.68 and the seller has good percentages on customer satisfaction. Pretty tempting.

It might be an upgrade, or it might not. Depends on what CPU you are running currently.

Run this and paste the output here the output here (in 'code' brackets please)-

sudo lshw



:rolleyes:

Not too sharp I guess...

If there's not much room in the case, the air will 'turn over' (cycle through) quickly. If there's lots of void (empty space) in the case, the air will not move through quickly.

Not that 'cycling' makes much difference, if any at all, to dust in the case.

BTW, you will get 'dead air' spots in almost every case. Small cases can be worse than big cases.....


I've Xubuntu running on a GIGABYTE GA-D510UD Atom 330 combo. It was an easy build. These days with the combo/price of the board at 70$-60$ + the cost of 2 to 4gb Ram, its an very economical XP and *buntu friendly option.

I hear Ubuntu Netbook is 'optimized' for this flavour of Intel hardware, the Netbook live CD in fact runs beautifully on this machine
although I've not installed it on it.

UNR isnt optimised for the atom from what I've seen.

[mystmaiden]

As always, great to have so many replies, thanks!


Not too sharp I guess...

Just sharp enough to know when the air coming out of the back of my case is darn near hot enough to burn my hand, lol.


There is no way that an AMD CPU is running in a socket 478 intel motherbaord.

And yet, here it is.


mystmaiden@hal:~$ sudo lshw
[sudo] password for mystmaiden:
hal
description: Desktop Computer
product: GE PRO-M2.
vendor: SiS
version: 3.0X
serial: 00000000
width: 32 bits
capabilities: smbios-2.3 dmi-2.3 smp-1.1 smp
configuration: chassis=desktop cpus=1
*-core
description: Motherboard
product: GE PRO-M2.
physical id: 0
version: 3.0X
serial: 00000000
*-firmware
description: BIOS
vendor: American Megatrends Inc.
physical id: 0
version: V2.40 (03/10/2006)
size: 64KiB
capacity: 192KiB
capabilities: isa pci pnp apm upgrade shadowing escd cdboot bootselect socketedrom edd int13floppy360 int13floppy1200 int13floppy720 int13floppy2880 int5printscreen int9keyboard int17printer int10video acpi usb agp ls120boot zipboot biosbootspecification
*-cpu
description: CPU
product: AMD Athlon(tm) XP
vendor: Advanced Micro Devices [AMD]
physical id: 4
bus info: cpu@0
version: 6.6.2
slot: Socket 478
size: 1150MHz
capacity: 3200MHz
width: 32 bits
clock: 100MHz
capabilities: boot fpu fpu_exception wp vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 apic mtrr pge mca cmov pat pse36 mmx fxsr sse syscall mmxext 3dnowext 3dnow up
*-cache:0
description: L1 cache
physical id: 5
slot: Internal Cache
size: 128KiB
capacity: 1MiB
capabilities: synchronous internal write-back unified
*-cache:1
description: L2 cache
physical id: 6
slot: Internal Cache
size: 256KiB
capacity: 1MiB
capabilities: synchronous internal write-back unified
*-memory
description: System memory
physical id: 1
size: 703MiB
*-pci
description: Host bridge
product: 741/741GX/M741 Host
vendor: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS]
physical id: 100
bus info: pci@0000:00:00.0
version: 03
width: 32 bits
clock: 33MHz
configuration: driver=agpgart-sis
resources: irq:0 memory:d0000000-d3ffffff
*-pci
description: PCI bridge
product: SiS AGP Port (virtual PCI-to-PCI bridge)
vendor: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS]
physical id: 1
bus info: pci@0000:00:01.0
version: 00
width: 32 bits
clock: 66MHz
capabilities: pci bus_master
resources: ioport:b000(size=4096) memory:cfd00000-cfefffff memory:bfa00000-cfbfffff(prefetchable)
*-display UNCLAIMED
description: VGA compatible controller
product: 661/741/760 PCI/AGP or 662/761Gx PCIE VGA Display Adapter
vendor: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS]
physical id: 0
bus info: pci@0000:01:00.0
version: 00
width: 32 bits
clock: 66MHz
capabilities: pm agp agp-3.0 cap_list
configuration: latency=0
resources: memory:c0000000-c7ffffff(prefetchable) memory:cfee0000-cfefffff ioport:bc00(size=128)
*-isa
description: ISA bridge
product: SiS963 [MuTIOL Media IO]
vendor: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS]
physical id: 2
bus info: pci@0000:00:02.0
version: 25
width: 32 bits
clock: 33MHz
capabilities: isa bus_master
configuration: latency=0
*-serial UNCLAIMED
description: SMBus
product: SiS961/2 SMBus Controller
vendor: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS]
physical id: 2.1
bus info: pci@0000:00:02.1
version: 00
width: 32 bits
clock: 33MHz
configuration: latency=0
resources: ioport:c00(size=32)
*-ide
description: IDE interface
product: 5513 [IDE]
vendor: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS]
physical id: 2.5
bus info: pci@0000:00:02.5
logical name: scsi0
logical name: scsi1
version: 00
width: 32 bits
clock: 33MHz
capabilities: ide bus_master emulated
configuration: driver=pata_sis latency=128
resources: irq:0 ioport:1f0(size=8) ioport:3f6 ioport:170(size=8) ioport:376 ioport:ff00(size=16)
*-disk
description: ATA Disk
product: Maxtor 4D060H3
vendor: Maxtor
physical id: 0
bus info: scsi@0:0.0.0
logical name: /dev/sda
version: DAH0
serial: D304B1GE
size: 57GiB (61GB)
capabilities: partitioned partitioned:dos
configuration: ansiversion=5 signature=c846350a
*-volume:0
description: EXT3 volume
vendor: Linux
physical id: 1
bus info: scsi@0:0.0.0,1
logical name: /dev/sda1
logical name: /
version: 1.0
serial: 871b4e36-2923-4778-a554-4163a5a00be5
size: 55GiB
capacity: 55GiB
capabilities: primary bootable journaled extended_attributes large_files recover ext3 ext2 initialized
configuration: created=2009-08-14 19:54:45 filesystem=ext3 modified=2010-07-02 21:28:35 mount.fstype=ext3 mount.options=rw,relatime,errors=remount-ro,data=ordered mounted=2010-07-04 12:51:41 state=mounted
*-volume:1
description: Extended partition
physical id: 2
bus info: scsi@0:0.0.0,2
logical name: /dev/sda2
size: 2008MiB
capacity: 2008MiB
capabilities: primary extended partitioned partitioned:extended
*-logicalvolume
description: Linux swap / Solaris partition
physical id: 5
logical name: /dev/sda5
capacity: 2008MiB
capabilities: nofs
*-cdrom:0
description: DVD reader
product: DVD-ROM GDR8160B
vendor: HL-DT-ST
physical id: 1
bus info: scsi@1:0.0.0
logical name: /dev/cdrom
logical name: /dev/dvd
logical name: /dev/scd0
logical name: /dev/sr0
version: 0009
capabilities: removable audio dvd
configuration: ansiversion=5 status=nodisc
*-cdrom:1
description: CD-R/CD-RW writer
product: CD-RW CRX175E
vendor: SONY
physical id: 0.1.0
bus info: scsi@1:0.1.0
logical name: /dev/cdrom1
logical name: /dev/cdrw1
logical name: /dev/scd1
logical name: /dev/sr1
version: 1.1b
serial: [SONY CD-RW CRX175E 1.1b Apr16 ,2002
capabilities: removable audio cd-r cd-rw
configuration: ansiversion=5 status=nodisc
*-multimedia
description: Multimedia audio controller
product: AC'97 Sound Controller
vendor: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS]
physical id: 2.7
bus info: pci@0000:00:02.7
version: a0
width: 32 bits
clock: 33MHz
capabilities: pm bus_master cap_list
configuration: driver=Intel ICH latency=32 maxlatency=11 mingnt=52
resources: irq:18 ioport:dc00(size=256) ioport:d800(size=128)
*-usb:0
description: USB Controller
product: USB 1.1 Controller
vendor: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS]
physical id: 3
bus info: pci@0000:00:03.0
version: 0f
width: 32 bits
clock: 33MHz
capabilities: bus_master
configuration: driver=ohci_hcd latency=32 maxlatency=80
resources: irq:20 memory:cfff9000-cfff9fff
*-usb:1
description: USB Controller
product: USB 1.1 Controller
vendor: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS]
physical id: 3.1
bus info: pci@0000:00:03.1
version: 0f
width: 32 bits
clock: 33MHz
capabilities: bus_master
configuration: driver=ohci_hcd latency=32 maxlatency=80
resources: irq:21 memory:cfffa000-cfffafff
*-usb:2
description: USB Controller
product: USB 2.0 Controller
vendor: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS]
physical id: 3.2
bus info: pci@0000:00:03.2
version: 00
width: 32 bits
clock: 33MHz
capabilities: pm bus_master cap_list
configuration: driver=ehci_hcd latency=32 maxlatency=80
resources: irq:23 memory:cfffb000-cfffbfff
*-network
description: Ethernet interface
product: SiS900 PCI Fast Ethernet
vendor: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS]
physical id: 4
bus info: pci@0000:00:04.0
logical name: eth0
version: 90
serial: 00:e0:06:09:07:85
size: 100MB/s
capacity: 100MB/s
width: 32 bits
clock: 33MHz
capabilities: pm bus_master cap_list rom ethernet physical tp mii 10bt 10bt-fd 100bt 100bt-fd autonegotiation
configuration: autonegotiation=on broadcast=yes driver=sis900 driverversion=v1.08.10 Apr. 2 2006 duplex=full ip=192.168.15.2 latency=32 link=yes maxlatency=11 mingnt=52 multicast=yes port=MII speed=100MB/s
resources: irq:19 ioport:d400(size=256) memory:cfff8000-cfff8fff memory:2c000000-2c01ffff(prefetchable)
*-network DISABLED
description: Ethernet interface
physical id: 1
logical name: vboxnet0
serial: 0a:00:27:00:00:00
capabilities: ethernet physical
configuration: broadcast=yes multicast=yes
mystmaiden@hal:~$

[cascade9]

*blinks*

Well, thats the 1st time I've seen lshw be so wrong.

There is no way it can be an AMD CPU, a socket 462 (socket a) CPU, (or socklet 754 or 939for that matter) will is never going to fit into socket 478 motherboard.

Sis 650/650GX (used in the GE Pro M) is pentium 4 only as well. Then later on in lshw, it has sis 741/741GX/M741 host controller, which is AMD only. :|

I dont know if it is getting the motherboard wrong, or the CPU wrong, but something is making a mistake.

[Warpnow]

Just replace mb/cpu/ram. Will cost you ~$150 or so. Check out Fry's ads, they regularily run ~$50 mb/cpu combos that are dual/triple core with quard core for ~$80. You can likely even recoup the cost by selling you're old mb/cpu/ram for $30-$40 on ebay.

[mystmaiden]

I'm wondering if the mobo info I found online is incorrect.

It seems inconceivable to me that lshw would be so far off.

I'm completely baffled now.

[cascade9]

Use the ever faithful 'eyeball' method. Once you know what to look for, picking the difference between P4 socket 478 Intels and AMD Athlon XP/64s is pretty easy.

GE Pro M2 (socket 478 intel)-
http://www.asrock.com/mb/overview.asp?Model=GE%20PRO-M2

K7S41GX-
http://www.asrock.com/mb/overview.asp?Model=K7S41GX

The giveaway is the CPU heatsink retention method. AMD uses 'lugs' on the side of the CPU socket, where Intel has black plastic 'brackets' that hold the heatsink down.

[mystmaiden]

I -think- this model would be before the amd 64s, its older than that. According to Sony original equipment was athlon xp 1800, would that have a different socket?

[cascade9]

Athlon- slot A (original) then socket A (socket 462).
Athlon XP- socket A
Athlon 64- socket 754 ('budget' models) or socket 939 ('server/workstation' models)

If it was a 1800+ originally, it would be socket a ;)

[mystmaiden]

I'll just have to open it back up and as you say, use the eyeball method. Can't do it today but I'll let you know what I find. I'm interested in seeing which thing lshw is reading wrong, the mb or the cpu. I think I may have the printed mobo info around here somewhere that was given to me when it was worked on, but chances of finding it may be slim, that was a few years back.

mystmaiden

[mystmaiden]

I finally got to open it up this evening and have a look. I found a sticker on the motherboard that said S/S-741GX, chasing that down I found a couple of motherboards.


http://www.sn-multimedia.de/shop/mainboards/mb-amd-462/asrock-mainboard-462-s-741gx-k7s41gx-v-333-u/

http://en.kioskea.net/guide/265845-foxconn-k7s741gxmg-6l

I'm stymied about why lshw would give me the GE Pro M-2 info but Cascade, you were absolutely right, lshw was wrong!

Thanks for saving me from tons of wrong part weirdness.

I wanted to take the cpu fan off while I was in there and see if I could clean it up a bit but I couldn't get the bloomin' clips loose. grr. Just not enough room to work

[WinterRain]

Buy from newegg and check the reviews for linux compatibility.

[cascade9]

I finally got to open it up this evening and have a look. I found a sticker on the motherboard that said S/S-741GX, chasing that down I found a couple of motherboards.

http://www.sn-multimedia.de/shop/mainboards/mb-amd-462/asrock-mainboard-462-s-741gx-k7s41gx-v-333-u/

http://en.kioskea.net/guide/265845-foxconn-k7s741gxmg-6l

I'm stymied about why lshw would give me the GE Pro M-2 info but Cascade, you were absolutely right, lshw was wrong!

Thanks for saving me from tons of wrong part weirdness.

I wanted to take the cpu fan off while I was in there and see if I could clean it up a bit but I couldn't get the bloomin' clips loose. grr. Just not enough room to work

No idea on why lshw did that, but it does happen. I'll try running lshw on the sis 735 chipset atlhlon XP board I have here, and see if it gives me any odd readings.

Yeah, if there is one problem with the old athlon/athlon XP setups, its the heatsink clips. They are Very Tight, and can be a right pain to get undone. I've seen someone drive a flathead screwdriver though the motherboard whenthe screwdriver slipped while trying to take a athlon XP heatsink off. Not that should happen unless you are rushed and have a fair amount of muscle.....

BTW, one bit of good news from your lshw readings-

Size:1150MHz.

If its a 1800+, it should be running at 1533MHz. I'd be pretty confident that it is a 1800+, as the multiplier fits (100 x 11.5 = 1150MHz. It should be running 133 x 11.5 = 1533MHz.).

I'd try going into the BIOS and adjusting the FSB up from 100MHz to 133MHz. A 33% increase in clock speed should help a fair bit. ;)

[mystmaiden]

Yeah, if there is one problem with the old athlon/athlon XP setups, its the heatsink clips. They are Very Tight, and can be a right pain to get undone. I've seen someone drive a flathead screwdriver though the motherboard whenthe screwdriver slipped while trying to take a athlon XP heatsink off.I was afraid that was going to happen to me. I'll have to take the motherboard all the way out to get a good enough purchase on it to set it free. As it is I can barely get my hand in there to manipulate the clip. That's a job for later on.

I think you're right on which motherboard it is, I downloaded the manual for the GX and the layout is spot on, all the info seems to fit. I did discover that the wrong ram is installed though. The manual shows it can use DDR PC2100 and 2700 - what's in there is PC3200 (the other model motherboard listed with the GX takes PC3200). Not sure what effect that has on performance, etc.


BTW, one bit of good news from your lshw readings-

Size:1150MHz.

If its a 1800+, it should be running at 1533MHz. I'd be pretty confident that it is a 1800+, as the multiplier fits (100 x 11.5 = 1150MHz. It should be running 133 x 11.5 = 1533MHz.).

I'd try going into the BIOS and adjusting the FSB up from 100MHz to 133MHz. A 33% increase in clock speed should help a fair bit
Thanks for the heads up on that. This may be a dumb question, but will it hurt to go ahead and up that setting with the wrong ram in there? My plan is to go ahead and replace the ram and power supply as economically as I can, then start saving my pennies for the new build. It'll take about 2 weeks to get the ram though cause we had to replace the bathroom sink this time. :( - but at least that way I will have something that won't make me completely crazy while I wait.

[cascade9]

I was afraid that was going to happen to me. I'll have to take the motherboard all the way out to get a good enough purchase on it to set it free. As it is I can barely get my hand in there to manipulate the clip. That's a job for later on.

I think you're right on which motherboard it is, I downloaded the manual for the GX and the layout is spot on, all the info seems to fit. I did discover that the wrong ram is installed though. The manual shows it can use DDR PC2100 and 2700 - what's in there is PC3200 (the other model motherboard listed with the GX takes PC3200). Not sure what effect that has on performance, etc.

Thanks for the heads up on that. This may be a dumb question, but will it hurt to go ahead and up that setting with the wrong ram in there? My plan is to go ahead and replace the ram and power supply as economically as I can, then start saving my pennies for the new build. It'll take about 2 weeks to get the ram though cause we had to replace the bathroom sink this time. :( - but at least that way I will have something that won't make me completely crazy while I wait.

PC2100 = DDR 266 (which actually runs at 133MHz but no puttting that cat back into the bag now)
PC2700 = DDR 333
PC3200 = DDR 400.

If you were going to have any issues with DDR 400 in a DDR 333/266 supported motherboard, they would have cropped up a long time ago. I havent had problems with DDR 400 in motehrboards that only support DDR 266/333, and I've done that quite a few times, Intel and AMD, using Intel, AMD, nVidia and SiS chipsets.

Increasing the FSB from 100 to 133 shoud be fine.

DDR 400 shouldnt make any difference to performance vs DDR 333 (if its running at DDR 266 there might be a tiny hit). With faster RAM you can normally overclock more (not a good idea with that setup) or you can drop the RAM timings a little (which will give you 'omg this just benchmarked 0.9% faster! results).

[mystmaiden]

Just having a look at the manual I downloaded for the motherboard, which says
The CPU host frequency of this motherboard is determined by the
jumper-setting. You must set the FSB jumper according to your AMD CPU
before you use the “Manual” option as the FSB setting in BIOS setup to
perform over clocking. Please check page 24 for details.
Not technically over clocking when the frequency is set too low to begin with, but would I have to muck about with the jumpers before changing BIOS? (Just thought I'd check before doing anything rash!

edited to add - I went into bios and got a big old 'manual is for over clock' warning when I was going to go ahead and set it up to 133. I'm a bit confused, because it seems that 133 is the logical choice, why under clock to begin with I wonder.

[Moozillaaa]

It doesnt work like that. ;) How 'static' the air is has very little to do with dust buildup- if it did, then CPU heatsinks/fans would always be nice and clean.





Another good point ... with respect ONLY to dust.

WRT heat the OP's complaint:

and my main complaint about this computer has been the tiny case with everything crammed in there - it definitely runs hotter than I'd like, yours truly is SPOT ON!

;)

[DJonsson2008]

A couple of notes.

The apparent under clocking may of been for
cooler and more stable running. Moving to
133 seems like it would make for a hotter
running MB.

On the otherhand fans can do near miracles
with heat situations. If is a metal case
and one side of the metal case is accumulating
heat even running an external fan against
that panel can be effective.

Its sounds like at the moment your power supply
is challenged, but when your new PSU arrives
you could try some creative fan placement on
or in the box running off the PSU.

A 120 mm fan would likely do some serious
cooling on this circuit, if you place it
outside the machine though watch your fingers
if the fan does not have a grill.

http://www.madshrimps.be/?action=getarticle&number=3&artpage=1565&articID=391

Otherwise smaller well placed fans can also work
wonders.

[cascade9]

Just having a look at the manual I downloaded for the motherboard, which says Not technically over clocking when the frequency is set too low to begin with, but would I have to muck about with the jumpers before changing BIOS? (Just thought I'd check before doing anything rash!

edited to add - I went into bios and got a big old 'manual is for over clock' warning when I was going to go ahead and set it up to 133. I'm a bit confused, because it seems that 133 is the logical choice, why under clock to begin with I wonder.

Ahhh. I checked the K7S41GX manual, and it actually has jumpers to select the FSB....I wasnt expecting that, my older ECS 735 is totally jumperless. I should have known it could happen, I've seen other manufacturers have FSB jumpers for XXX chipsets when other manufacturers have the same chipset totally jumperless.

Anyway, after checking that, you will have to change the jumpers (PITA I know) from 200FSB to 266FSB. If you dont change the jumpers, you can go to 'manual' and change to 266FSB but then it will be running from a 'base' of 200mHz FSB, and it will throw everything else out.

Because things like the PCI and AGP slots mHz (and other things on the motehrboard, eg onboard LAN or audio) are determinted by the 'base' mHz, changing the FSB by overclocking will make those things run faster, eg PCI slots, at 200FSB they run at 33.3mHz, 1/6 of the FSB mHz....change up to 266FSB then the PCI slots will run at 44.3 mHz, which can lead to instability. If you chnage the jumpers to 266FSB, they PCI slot speed ratio changes from 1/6 to 1/8, meaning that at 266FSB the PCI slots run at the correct 33 mHz (well, 33.25 but that is fine)

As for why its running at 200FSB instead of 266FSB- I'd put that down to technician mistake. It happens, seen it quite a few times.

Of course, DJonsson2008 might have a point, it might have been set at 200FSB for stability reasons.

BTW, @ DJonsson2008-


On the otherhand fans can do near miracles
with heat situations. If is a metal case
and one side of the metal case is accumulating
heat even running an external fan against
that panel can be effective.

Totally correct. You dont need fans though, I've got a couple of huge x-telco heatsinks, and when I had my older, very hot running computer still going, you could drop a degree or 3 of the load CPU temps from just sitting one of the heatsinks on the top of he case. Nice side effect was that the extra weight helped kill some noise (stops panel buzz in particular)


Just sharp enough to know when the air coming out of the back of my case is darn near hot enough to burn my hand, lol.

Which is slightly worring. Does it run that hot all the time, or just when you are giving the computer some serious load?

I might have to try to get a blog going or something, I've used a few really cheap, quick and easy tricks to help keep CPUs in particular cool. Hard to describe how they work, but once you've seen a pic its pretty obvious.

*edit- not using expensive stuff either, just cardboard and tape mainly.

[mystmaiden]

Mine usually runs the hottest when I'm rendering graphics in Poser, which is a heavy load for it's but its always tended to be warmer than I'd like. I attributed it to the dinky case and lack of air flow. A simple solution like a fan outside of it or your idea of a big heat sink on top might do the trick.

As for the jumpers, I'll have to pull it apart and have a look at again. Messing with jumpers always makes me nervous but you're right - it needs doing if I intend to move it up to 133. The stability issue makes me wonder if I should. (Hopefully my next motherboard won't have jumpers to deal with - they're just too fiddly for comfort.)

You should start a blog, Cascade9, I'd definitely read it.

[SaintDanBert]

...
I try to get cases with airfilters myself, to stop messy and heat inducing dust from getting into the case.


My cases mostly have mechanical carriers where the fans mount. These carriers then attach to the case. I grab cast-off nylons from the wife and stretch across between the carrier and the case. Instant filter and very little drag (sic) on air flow.

{placeholder}
... Insert remarks about nylons and drag and similar because I know that you want to ... (grin)
{/placeholder}

Seriously, filters are a good idea especially if there are house pets leaving all sorts of hair and dander around.

~~~ 0;-Dan

[cascade9]

Mine usually runs the hottest when I'm rendering graphics in Poser, which is a heavy load for it's but its always tended to be warmer than I'd like. I attributed it to the dinky case and lack of air flow. A simple solution like a fan outside of it or your idea of a big heat sink on top might do the trick.

As for the jumpers, I'll have to pull it apart and have a look at again. Messing with jumpers always makes me nervous but you're right - it needs doing if I intend to move it up to 133. The stability issue makes me wonder if I should. (Hopefully my next motherboard won't have jumpers to deal with - they're just too fiddly for comfort.)

You should start a blog, Cascade9, I'd definitely read it.

Thanks. One of these days I'll get my butt into gear and do it LOL.

Well, if you are rendering, then yeah, I'm not suprised then. That will be running at 100% load for a s long as you render, and 60watts+ worth of heat can be a little warm. There is probably no stability issue, but no way of knowing without actually moving up to 133 FSB.

Dont worry, jumpers are dead and gone. I havent seen a new motherboard that needs jumpers changed for several years now.


My cases mostly have mechanical carriers where the fans mount. These carriers then attach to the case. I grab cast-off nylons from the wife and stretch across between the carrier and the case. Instant filter and very little drag (sic) on air flow.

{placeholder}
... Insert remarks about nylons and drag and similar because I know that you want to ... (grin)
{/placeholder}

Seriously, filters are a good idea especially if there are house pets leaving all sorts of hair and dander around.

~~~ 0;-Dan

I've done the same. It works. A bit fiddly to setup at times, but worth it....especially when you live with cats. That cat fur gets Everwhere :|

[CharlesA]

Cat fur is horrible.

I've seen some really nice metal filters (http://www.frozencpu.com/search.html?mv_profile=keyword_search&mv_session_id=uQbqWUFP&searchspec=filter&go.x=0&go.y=0) that go in front of the fans to block out most stuff. They are a bit expensive, but look really nice on some rigs.