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View Full Version : Could firefox 4 cause a resurgence in market share?



Dustin2128
June 25th, 2010, 11:42 PM
I've noticed a generally malicious attitude towards firefox here in the forums and elsewhere lately, and its not undeserved; firefox is slower than chrome, opera, konqueror and a plethora of other browsers I've used over the past few years, which is a change from when I first started using it in 2005. Back then it was quite fast considering I had been using IE6 until that point (the dark ages of my computing history). Firefox 4 from what I've seen and heard looks much lighter on resources than its predecessors and from what I've read on softpedia includes quite a lot of new code, webGL being the tipping point factor for me. I've always liked firefox and might swap back from opera if only because I like the chrome/ff4 UI and customizability of the browser. As it is right now I swapped to opera because firefox felt slow, unresponsive, bulky, and crashed quite a lot (But at least it follows standards... IE.. :evil:). If they fixed some of those negative aspects of the browser, would you swap back?

doorknob60
June 26th, 2010, 03:30 AM
I use Firefox, and I've tried some of the other browsers, and I like many of them, especially Chromium, but I always manage to come back to Firefox in some way or another (though I stayed with Chromium for a month or two). It works with all the extensions and plugins I want it to, and the speed is good enough for me. Firefox 4 looks great though, and it wouldn't surprise me to see an increase in market share (it would surprise me if it didn't go up at least a bit).

Frogs Hair
June 26th, 2010, 03:43 AM
I have been using Namoroka in 9.10 and 10.04 and it has never crashed or frozen . It is still being updated almost daily.

CharmyBee
June 26th, 2010, 03:52 AM
I've been using Firefox since it was Phoenix. For every major milestone, it's always had the hype bigger than its substance. "Faster" and "efficient" is way far from the truth. It's why I use Seamonkey 1.X despite in theory of being a more bloated browser, full suite actually, but seems to take just a fraction of the ram and CPU than Firefox does and has lower system requirements.

Seamonkey 2.X adopted the "faster" Firefox code and Gecko, and was ironically, a lot slower.

CJ Master
June 26th, 2010, 04:01 AM
Where is the "other" option?

Dustin2128
June 26th, 2010, 04:30 AM
Where is the "other" option?

just post here

SoFl W
June 26th, 2010, 04:40 AM
I started off with Netscape Navigator way back when I had an old DOS machine and fired up Win 3.1 to use it. (I am sure Win95 was out by then)
I moved to W2K and had IE, after a while I discovered Opera. I liked it so much I paid for it back when it had a pay option. In 2004 I was still using Opera when FireFox was somewhere around 1. The one thing I liked about FF was the addons and how I could customize it. I had Opera people asking me how I could leave it. (I seem to remember Opera having an integrated mail news reader) The FF add-ons made FF so much nicer.
Then FF started started using lot of add ons in the browser and that is when I thought it went down hill. It started to get bulky.

I will stick with FireFox, I have it customized the way I want. I also have Opera installed but only use it when something doesn't load right it FF. Hopefully FF will improve.

nrs
June 26th, 2010, 04:46 AM
I intensely dislike Firefox. But I still use it. If Konqueror or Chrome had noscript I'd switch in a heartbeat. And yes, I know you can dig into the settings and disable JS in those browers, but that's not really the same thing as noscript.

Linye
June 26th, 2010, 04:48 AM
I'm hating FF as of now but FF4 is looking good.

Genius314
June 26th, 2010, 05:06 AM
I've had some problems with Firefox, but it feels much more comfortable for me to use than Chrome and Opera.

Chrome is my second-choice browser, and I use it whenever Firefox fails me.

powerpleb
June 26th, 2010, 06:53 AM
i've had some problems with firefox, but it feels much more comfortable for me to use than chrome and opera.

Chrome is my second-choice browser, and i use it whenever firefox fails me.

+1

V for Vincent
June 26th, 2010, 07:30 AM
I'm using chromium right now, but I might switch back. For me, the main FF issue is startup speed. When I click my chromium launcher, it starts up in half a second. Firefox takes between 5 and 10 seconds.

madjr
June 26th, 2010, 08:15 AM
will ff4 be in time for ubuntu 10.10 ?

i would love to have it by then

Helkaluin
June 26th, 2010, 08:17 AM
My browsing habits are now entrenched with the NoScript and Vimperator add-ons. Can't really switch now...

Dustin2128
June 26th, 2010, 08:19 AM
I'm thinking the final version is going to come out in November; a bit too late for 10.10 but in time for 11.04. Of course I'm probably going to start using it in beta or alpha just to check it out.

khelben1979
June 26th, 2010, 08:31 AM
I voted Firefox.

One thing which has caused Firefox to crash a lot on my Linux system has been when I play huge playlists in YouTube where it creates flash temp files in /tmp and when the space on /tmp has been filled up, the web browser crashes.

Also, the Firefox update to 3.6.4 has made my Firefox to not work any more, so... at the present, I have been forced to use older versions which doesn't feel too good and gave me some disappointment regarding Firefox as a web browser, but Firefox is without any doubt my favourite web browser and having the possibility to switch to different versions and having them all installed at the same time, is something which I experience as quite cool!

I think that it's not possible to have several versions of Internet Explorer on the same system, correct me if I'm wrong! ;)

irrdev
June 26th, 2010, 08:51 AM
I am now a VERY satisfied Chrome user. I have four criteria for a browser: startup speed, interface design, extension support and rendering speed. Chrome currently wins for startup speed, simplistic ui interface and rendering speed. Firefox's extension support is still the best, but the heavy extensibility of XUL is also the browser's archilles heel; Firefox will NEVER be able to match the performance of Chrome which uses a native interface for all three platforms. I would consider switching back to Firefox 4.0 based on the new chrome-like interface and faster startup times.

smellyman
June 26th, 2010, 10:06 AM
Can't stand the Chrome/iums

alambpencil
June 26th, 2010, 10:09 AM
I have recently switched from using Chrome to using Firefox again and the speed difference is very noticeable. Fingers crossed for Firefox 4 leaving the competition behind.

murderslastcrow
June 26th, 2010, 10:09 AM
Wow, a lot of people here don't seem very content on looking around at the options. Before Chrome ever came out there were quite a few faster, sleeker browsers around. At least, moreso than Firefox.

lovinglinux
June 26th, 2010, 01:24 PM
I've noticed a generally malicious attitude towards firefox here in the forums and elsewhere lately, and its not undeserved;

There is a malicious attitude from some very vocal Chrome users, which is annoying, specially when we are trying to solve Firefox users problems and Chrome fans step in to say to install Chrome, that Firefox sucks an so on. Nevertheless, the majority is still very happy with Firefox. See polls on similar threads and user statistics.

I don't think Firefox deserves that attitude. Mozilla has been improving Firefox performance on every new major release and Firefox 4 is no exception. Chrome is faster, but it lacks everything else. IMO, it sucks really bad. Wait for Chrome to become as popular as Firefox and to introduce several features it clearly needs to see the complains spreading.


firefox is slower than chrome, opera, konqueror and a plethora of other browsers I've used over the past few years, which is a change from when I first started using it in 2005.

That's not true. Until version 10.5, Opera was the worst of all. I don't even consider Konqueror (does anyone use it?). Besides, if you start Firefox with a clean profile, without extensions, it is as fast as Chrome (http://lovinglinuxblog.blogspot.com/2010/05/browser-speed-test.html).

Anyway, I have more than 50 extensions installed and my Firefox only takes 5 seconds to start. I just do regular maintenance of my Firefox profile and keep vigilant when extensions updates. For example, recently Ghostery introduced a new version that slowed down Firefox a lot. This has been fixed tho, after several complains.

aladinonl
June 26th, 2010, 01:24 PM
Wow, a lot of people here don't seem very content on looking around at the options. Before Chrome ever came out there were quite a few faster, sleeker browsers around. At least, moreso than Firefox.
Yes but speed is not the only criteria for a browser, especially with better and faster connection. I have a deep love for Opera, but its lame password manager is a major turn-down while lastpass is a killer addon for FF.

lovinglinux
June 26th, 2010, 01:27 PM
Yes but speed is not the only criteria for a browser, especially with better and faster connection. I have a deep love for Opera, but its lame password manager is a major turn-down while lastpass is a killer addon for FF.

I agree. BTW, I use KDE Wallet Password Integration (https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/49357/), which is also a killer add-on.

xc1024
June 26th, 2010, 01:53 PM
At the moment I'm half on the Firefox side and half on Chromium side. I love Firefox, that was my first browser (after IE, that is). I used it for a long time. It was fast and very efficient. But then things changed.

Since around 3.0 it got increasingly slower no matter what I did. I then noticed this new-fangled Chrome thing. I downloaded it and played around with it. Much faster than Firefox. I kept it around as a toy. But then it got extensions and I made it my primary browser. Now I'm slowly drifting towards switching to Firefox as my primary, but in my case the browser usage is divided more or less equally between primary and secondary.

Still, I think that Chromium has something missing. It feels hollow beneath all this simplified interface, as if it had no soul (fine, programs cannot have soul but you get the idea)

I have quite high expectations for Firefox 4. I can't have lower ones, not after I saw Chromium. However, one thing I'd hate FF 4 to do would be to lose it's character, to just blend in and stop being as unique as it was since the beginning.

Nick_Jinn
June 26th, 2010, 01:59 PM
Lately I think that Opera is my preferred choice for a browser even over firefox or chromium. It used to be bare bones, but now it does everything and does it as fast or faster than chrome and with a smaller footprint than firefox......Its even a torrent application as well as a web hosting software, a video player, a cloud program, ect ect, and its still not even bulky or slow.


Opera really outdid itself. Its become way more than it was before and is giving the others some serious competition.

MadCookie
June 26th, 2010, 02:08 PM
I will use Firefox if they get a better javascript engine...

spoons
June 26th, 2010, 02:32 PM
Still use Firefox 3.6, it's pretty solid, I don't like the minimalist interface of Chromium. I'm hoping Firefox 4 adds better SVG support and performance.

Dupoint
June 26th, 2010, 02:44 PM
I use Firefox and I'm happy with the way it is right now. See sig.

gnomeuser
June 26th, 2010, 02:59 PM
For Firefox may finally have included some much required stability and security features which have been present since day one in Chromium howeve they still don't have the same focus on usability, it lacks regression testing and correctness testing as done on every commit in Chromium.

Mozilla notoriously doesn't give a damn about Linux as a platform whereas Google depends on Linux because of their ChromeOS project and retains it as a first class citizen. This needs to change radically if Firefox is to recapture me as a user.

Finally the Firefox approach to media support is inane, they bundle specific codecs rather than a using a framework such as GStreamer. It locks me into only accessing the codecs Firefox approves of and makes adaption to new formats unnecessarily cumbersome.

Oh and they need to do something about their performance, resource consumption, start up time and leaking. None of which do I see them with a plan to address the problem, track success and ensure no regressions.

10027586
June 26th, 2010, 03:07 PM
Chrome/chromium has 2 features over other browsers. Speed and the vertical space-saving tabs.

I personally find the default tab layout a pain in the bum on most browsers. Most browsers don't let you fix that. Firefox does, with Tree Style Tabs. Try it for a while and you'll see what I mean. Most of us have widescreen monitors, and having tabs on the left saves our precious vertical space, while also allowing one to have (and organise) a greater number of tabs, which is very handy on forums (ie open all the interesting topics in new tabs and work through them, not practical with normal tabs).

Speed is the 2nd feature. Firefox is slow to load. However, can any of us really tell the difference once it's loading? I swear the same people who whine about Firefox's slow loading and champion Chrome on the basis of it being instant are the same ones who complain that Canonical is spending too long focusing on Ubuntu's boot time (and incidentally most of the work there comes from upstream anyway). For me, it's fast enough, and generally I just leave it running in the background anyway. On the rare occasions I have to actually start it, the 5-10 seconds isn't going to kill me.

Finally, for page rendering, Firefox kills everything else stone dead. Simple as. Opera's always been a pain for me in that regard.

Overall a win for Firefox then.

nrs
June 26th, 2010, 05:10 PM
Mozilla notoriously doesn't give a damn about Linux as a platform whereas Google depends on Linux because of their ChromeOS project and retains it as a first class citizen. This needs to change radically if Firefox is to recapture me as a user.

I remember seeing benchmarks awhile back where Wine+Firefox performed dramatically better than native. :cry:

A lot of people blamed stuff like X -- which makes zero sense considering Wine itself uses X -- when the truth is much like you said: Mozilla could care less about Linux.

AFAIK there are plans for a redesign of the Windows UI for 4; are they planning the same for Linux? I think I've seen a few mockups but am unsure if they're anything more than that. Linux users seem to like creating pretty mockups that have no bearing on reality. :P If you saw some of the ones for KDE4 / Gnome 3 you'd know what I'm talking about.

aladinonl
June 26th, 2010, 05:29 PM
Finally, for page rendering, Firefox kills everything else stone dead. Simple as. Opera's always been a pain for me in that regard.

Overall a win for Firefox then.

Opera can be a pain in the a in terms of rendering. Had Opera developers listen to its users whining day and night for essential features (like better password manager) more people would definitely use it and hence more web developers would make their sites compatible. They are just so stubborn.

Anyway, I find Chrome renders correctly a couple of sites while FF doesn't.

YeOK
June 26th, 2010, 06:39 PM
I remember seeing benchmarks awhile back where Wine+Firefox performed dramatically better than native. :cry:

A lot of people blamed stuff like X -- which makes zero sense considering Wine itself uses X -- when the truth is much like you said: Mozilla could care less about Linux.

AFAIK there are plans for a redesign of the Windows UI for 4; are they planning the same for Linux? I think I've seen a few mockups but am unsure if they're anything more than that. Linux users seem to like creating pretty mockups that have no bearing on reality. :P If you saw some of the ones for KDE4 / Gnome 3 you'd know what I'm talking about.

One of my biggest issues with Firefox is how ugly and slow it is in Linux. The Windows version is such a better experience you could be forgiven for thinking they were two totally different browsers.

Its due to get worse too, with Firefox adding hardware based rendering based on direct2d (http://blog.mozilla.com/joe/2010/05/25/hardware-accelerating-firefox/). So the Windows version will be even faster and sport a much better looking GUI.

PuddingKnife
June 26th, 2010, 06:56 PM
I switched to Chrome and I won't go back. Its faster and lighter and I like some features better..

for instance, highlight text to copy, middle click on new tab button, you automagically do a google search for the highlighted text. I love it.

lovinglinux
June 26th, 2010, 07:17 PM
I switched to Chrome and I won't go back. Its faster and lighter and I like some features better..

for instance, highlight text to copy, middle click on new tab button, you automagically do a google search for the highlighted text. I love it.

In Firefox, highlight the text and drag it to the search bar.

betrunkenaffe
June 27th, 2010, 04:18 PM
Installed Epiphany yesterday and so far can't say I've found any issues which would require me to move back. Pages generally load faster, it starts up faster and I don't really use many (if any) plugins in firefox.

Dustin2128
June 28th, 2010, 12:39 AM
There is a malicious attitude from some very vocal Chrome users, which is annoying, specially when we are trying to solve Firefox users problems and Chrome fans step in to say to install Chrome, that Firefox sucks an so on. Nevertheless, the majority is still very happy with Firefox. See polls on similar threads and user statistics.

I don't think Firefox deserves that attitude. Mozilla has been improving Firefox performance on every new major release and Firefox 4 is no exception. Chrome is faster, but it lacks everything else. IMO, it sucks really bad. Wait for Chrome to become as popular as Firefox and to introduce several features it clearly needs to see the complains spreading.



That's not true. Until version 10.5, Opera was the worst of all. I don't even consider Konqueror (does anyone use it?). Besides, if you start Firefox with a clean profile, without extensions, it is as fast as Chrome (http://lovinglinuxblog.blogspot.com/2010/05/browser-speed-test.html).

Anyway, I have more than 50 extensions installed and my Firefox only takes 5 seconds to start. I just do regular maintenance of my Firefox profile and keep vigilant when extensions updates. For example, recently Ghostery introduced a new version that slowed down Firefox a lot. This has been fixed tho, after several complains.
Firefox does deserve that attitude. I have the same opinion of browsers as I do of operating systems: if you have to do regular maintenance to keep it running acceptably, something is seriously wrong.. Also as for opera, It made up for its previous slowness with 10.5, as firefox will have if it makes speed problems a distant memory in FF4.


Mozilla notoriously doesn't give a damn about Linux as a platform whereas Google depends on Linux because of their ChromeOS project and retains it as a first class citizen. This needs to change radically if Firefox is to recapture me as a user.
I'd have to agree, take a look at firefox's usage and even though it's the default browser; akin to IE's dominance on most linux OSes (if not ALL), it's still more likley 80% windows 5% mac 15% linux. It is installed on every public windows computer I know, and it runs beautifully on all of them. It should realize its dominance of the linux world (even slackware comes preinstalled with it) and live up to its responsibility.

Anyhow, chrome and opera on linux are both wonderful experiences and I think that canonical should seriously consider making chromium the firefox of ubuntu 10.10 or 11.04.

Nick_Jinn
June 29th, 2010, 09:45 AM
I would prefer Firefox over Chrom or Chromium if it wasnt for the memory leak. I can even deal with the small lag in speed. There is just a lot more cool features (so far) for firefox, and googles apps are hit and miss, and the default minamalist approach is not my style....Chrome is faster though.

I still think Opera has them both beat though. I think as fast if not faster than Chromium, and they have even better features than firefox now.....like its a torrent app, from right inside the app, you can host a website from your computer or stream video to your friends directly from Opera browser, its a better media player than the others, and there is some really cool stuff in there.


I am torn between Firefox and Chromium......I hear the memory leak is solved in the very latest version of firefox (I dont know if we have it for Linux yet), and that is my main complaint with Firefox.


Chromium isnt bad though. Its totally decent and is obviously better than IE, and doesnt have the stability problems or memory leak that firefox has.....it uses more memory than firefox sans the memory leak, but the memory leak is a big problem.

Opera ftw.

Nick_Jinn
June 29th, 2010, 09:55 AM
Chrome/chromium has 2 features over other browsers. Speed and the vertical space-saving tabs.

I personally find the default tab layout a pain in the bum on most browsers. Most browsers don't let you fix that. Firefox does, with Tree Style Tabs. Try it for a while and you'll see what I mean. Most of us have widescreen monitors, and having tabs on the left saves our precious vertical space, while also allowing one to have (and organise) a greater number of tabs, which is very handy on forums (ie open all the interesting topics in new tabs and work through them, not practical with normal tabs).

Speed is the 2nd feature. Firefox is slow to load. However, can any of us really tell the difference once it's loading? I swear the same people who whine about Firefox's slow loading and champion Chrome on the basis of it being instant are the same ones who complain that Canonical is spending too long focusing on Ubuntu's boot time (and incidentally most of the work there comes from upstream anyway). For me, it's fast enough, and generally I just leave it running in the background anyway. On the rare occasions I have to actually start it, the 5-10 seconds isn't going to kill me.

Finally, for page rendering, Firefox kills everything else stone dead. Simple as. Opera's always been a pain for me in that regard.

Overall a win for Firefox then.


The difference of course is that we load pages every few minutes, where we might only boot a computer once twice a day. If I had to wait 10 seconds for a page to load (Im spoiled) I would think that its a little slower than it should be with high speed internet 4 seconds is fair. 1 second is nice.

Firefox is fast enough for my needs though, most of the time. Chromium is a little snappier out of the box, but for all the features and apps, it doesnt have all of the bases covered that Firefox has....probably due to longer development and testing time. Google has tons of add ons, but they are a little more rushed to the market (so far).


I dont think enough people are giving opera a chance. In the latest benchmarks it loads faster than Chrome and has some neat features that even firefox doesnt have yet.

smellyman
June 29th, 2010, 10:07 AM
Installed Epiphany yesterday and so far can't say I've found any issues which would require me to move back. Pages generally load faster, it starts up faster and I don't really use many (if any) plugins in firefox.

Firefox is one, but I really like Epiphany too

Nick_Jinn
June 29th, 2010, 10:15 AM
Firefox is one, but I really like Epiphany too


What does Epiphany have going for it? Im not doubting you, just curious.

Redache
June 29th, 2010, 10:42 AM
What does Epiphany have going for it? Im not doubting you, just curious.

Epiphany is integrated into the Gnome Desktop and fairly lightweight. It's still a bit buggy at the minute but it's based on WebKit so should improve a great deal. It used to run on Gecko but they changed it either last year or the year before to WebKit.

I'd happily use Firefox again if it improved, I don't really get tied to software as I like to keep my options open if something better comes along.

My personal lineage of Web browsers is -> IE 5/6 -> Firefox -> Flock -> Firefox -> Safari -> Chrome -> Safari -> Chrome.

I kept giving Safari another go but I still don't like it, even on my Mac :D

EarthMind
June 29th, 2010, 10:51 AM
Firefox is my main choice to surf and develop websites in. Opera is my second choice.

BenAshton24
June 29th, 2010, 11:13 AM
Firefox for life.

Nick_Jinn
June 29th, 2010, 11:15 AM
I am pretty sure that Opera uses less CPU and RAM than Epiphany. If by lightweight you mean it takes up less of your hard drive....That isnt a big priority for me as I am not running a 10gb hd Pentium 1 tower. I can splurge a few more mb of disk space for a nicer browser.


Its cool that its a native homebrew browser, it works ok, not terribly slow....not really spectacular either in my opinion.


Is there anything cool you can do with it due to it being integrated with Gnome that you cant do with the others? What does that mean exactly?



Epiphiny is maybe a little more stable in Linux than firefox...firefox is buggy if you ask me, but I really like Opera. I also like firefox if they fix the memory leaks (It doesnt always happen) and work on stability issues.

amitabhishek
June 29th, 2010, 11:42 AM
I haven't looked back since I've been on Chrome. Easily one of the best among all Google products! FF is not bad, it has his merits its just that its slow!!!

@OP: Little punctuation here and there would help :)!!!

Nick_Jinn
June 29th, 2010, 12:00 PM
Firefox isnt always slow. It depends on a few different factors. The latest version of firefox is fairy fast.


Opera loads faster than Chrome does though. They are all great browsers though. Chrome is better than anything we had 3 years ago.

I think its great that they are all competing. Sometimes competition is a good thing.

rajeev1204
June 29th, 2010, 12:06 PM
Mozilla notoriously doesn't give a damn about Linux as a platform whereas Google depends on Linux because of their ChromeOS project and retains it as a first class citizen. This needs to change radically if Firefox is to recapture me as a user.




Mozilla and google are 2 very different companies and were founded to address different issues.
No point in comparing a company making browsers and a company which , well, makes almost everything .

Dont see a roadmap where they want to fix the memory leak thing in firefox 4 though .

aladinonl
June 29th, 2010, 01:20 PM
Mozilla and google are 2 very different companies and were founded to address different issues.
No point in comparing a company making browsers and a company which , well, makes almost everything .

Dont see a roadmap where they want to fix the memory leak thing in firefox 4 though .
Well that's the point aint it? The company making browser is not very good at it while the other is pretty good.

Lucradia
June 29th, 2010, 01:22 PM
Here is my timeline of browsers...

Netscape Navigator ( From Start to Finish aka 0.9 to 4.08 )
Netscape Communicator ( From Start to Finish aka 4.0 to 4.8 )
Netscape 6 ( From Start To Finish aka 6.0 to 6.2.8 )
Netscape 7 ( From Start To Finish aka 7.0 to 7.2 )
Mozilla Firefox ( From 1.5 to Present )

Some Internet Explorer and Internet Explorer for Mac was in there, but not much worth mentioning. I used Opera a couple times during the Firefox era, and some Chrome, but also not worth mentioning.

To be honest, I see myself sticking with Firefox.

rajeev1204
June 29th, 2010, 01:50 PM
Well that's the point aint it? The company making browser is not very good at it while the other is pretty good.


? . Not very good at it ? A very general statement to make . Its not the point here.Just speed doesnt maketh a browser .Firefox , as many users here have pointed out has its strength in the thousands of adddons and extentions which extend usability of the browser.

Also, its an open source project so many people work on the code, not just mozilla .Google didnt create all the code for chrome by itself and uses and lot of code from other projects which are open source .

There are different browsers for different people and people use what fits their needs best .As far as speed is concerned , wait for FF 4 .Promises a lot of speeed improvements.

sanderd17
June 29th, 2010, 03:23 PM
I tried chrome/ium a few times and I have to admit it's faster. But sometimes it has really annoying bugs.

Like a while ago, I was working on wiki and I copied a title of a page into an editing page to form a link. But the problem was that the markup of the title was copied along with it and I could finish my editing without retyping the complete title.

Another problem is the interface: Chrome doesn't adapt to the chosen theme. For every window, I have to click right except for chrome. Sindce I placed a cairo clock on the upper right corner, I can't access the right button and I have to leave the maximized window before I can close it.

These are not big problems but they just keep me from using chrome all the time.