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Bluspace
June 25th, 2010, 05:52 AM
My old Acer finally died this week... at just about the right time I suppose, since I was planning on purchasing a new laptop for uni anyway.:p Anyhow, being in the market to buy my own computer this time, I must say, I am quite tempted by System 76's offerings, and overall attitude. I have been an on and off linux user for a while now, due to one thing or another, and see this as a potential bridge to getting everything to just work under linux.

Anyway, the two models I was looking at, specifically, were the Lemur ultra thin, and the Pangolin performance. Technically, the excuse for buying another laptop was for school(word processing, video, web browsing etc.) . But, I'd be lying if I said I wasn't intending on doing a bit of tinkering and non-typical work as well. Most likely some programming, maybe a bit of lite work with the graphics tablet, a bit of low poly 3d modeling, audio editing etc.(I do have a nice desktop though, which anything intensive will usually be done on anyway.These are merely possibilities, not necessities.) Having something small with good battery life was originally the plan. Which I suppose would be the lemur in this case. But after looking at other higher end notebooks, Ive begun to doubt this(although, this could just be my natural tendency towards doubt).

Now for the questions...

Does system 76 include the necessary windows driver with the lemur/pangolin? Just in case I need to dual boot in the future.

How much performance/battery life improvement is there with the solid state drives?

Is there any chance that the pangolin will be receiving a bigger battery?(As I think the 2 hour maximum battery life will be the ultimate deal breaker for me)

How are the keyboards on these two models? (a very subjective question, I know)... I assume that the Lemur has a full sized keyboard?

... I suppose that's enough for now... The real over encompassing question, I suppose , is will the lemur be adequate for my needs. And likewise, whether the Pangolin could possibly meet my requirements, now, or in the near future. Thanks!

satsujinka
June 25th, 2010, 07:35 AM
As far as I am aware System76 provides Windows drivers for all of their computers (you may have to get them off of their site.)

An SSD will drastically reduce loading times, which will certainly make the laptop feel faster.

I doubt the Pangolin will get a bigger battery. The ODM that designs the laptops used by System76 tends to think of their laptops as desktop replacements. And so their battery life is typically short with no larger battery to fall back to.

I've not used either of the two laptops, but by all that I've heard their keyboards are decent.

From the sounds of it, as you seem to be very battery dependent, I would go with the lemur. I would assume that the lemur could do what you wish, however, the 3D stuff may be a bit rough with the intel gpu. And while the Pangolin will certainly be more than powerful enough to handle anything you would throw at it; the battery life is just not there.

isantop
June 25th, 2010, 04:09 PM
That's all about right.

You can find Drivers for all of our laptops at knowledge76.com. Just click on "Find Your System" on the left and follow the prompts.

We have a Ratel Ultra in shop that boots in about 6 seconds, blowing Ubuntu's target out of the water. It has an SSD in it. The Lemur and an SSD should also be pretty quick.

We have looked for a bigger battery to fit in the Pangolin, but we haven't been able to find one at all. I also doubt we'll see one soon.

The Lemur has a nice keyboard on it. Our CEO uses one, and he loves it every time he uses it. The Pangolin has a keyboard similar to late model Macbooks (a.k.a. the Chiclets style). It's nice, and while I've heard from external sources that it's not as nice as Thinkpad keyboards, it does take a close second.

I agree with the above statement regarding which one to go with. The Lemur should be able to handle Low-poly 3D easily, and it does have the battery life that the Pangolin lacks.

Bluspace
June 25th, 2010, 11:29 PM
Thanks for the prompt responses! I am now leaning towards the Lemur with the 80gb SSD and 4gb of ram(If I do indeed go with system76 this time around). The one thing I am still on the fence about, is this configuration as the lemur vs. The Asus 30vt/jc product line. I just went over to Xotic pc, and can configure a comparable Asus(su7300, 4gb ram, 80gb intel ssd) for a bit under $1000 dollars(This: http://www.xoticpc.com/asus-ul30aa2-p-2706.html?wconfigure=yes). Actually, for about the same price as the Lemur, I could get the 160gb intel ssd. It is also interesting to note that they have 2 dimm slots, rather than one like the Lemur.

They also have a different model, the JC(This: http://www.xoticpc.com/asus-u30jca1-p-2763.html?wconfigure=yes) that I can configure for the same price as the Lemur, with Intel 80gb ssd,a 320gb second internal hard drive, the i3 processor, switchable graphics, and from what I gather, better battery life.

Now, I understand the reasons why Asus can have more competitive pricing the s76. However, as someone who is on a budget and may not be able to buy another computer for a while, this discrepancy seems problematic. I have not looked into Linux compatibility on these machines, which would certainly help my indecisiveness. But still, the factor of price, battery life, and performance at first glance, seem to be better served on the Asus, based on specs alone. Although Ubuntu for me tends to be snappier than windows.:guitar:

I suppose what I am really asking here, is for you to convince me of S76's greatness:p. However, joking aside, I'd be really interested to know if any of you have had experience with these other notebooks, and whether there are any factors I missed that would help sway me to make a decision. Not an easy task, so people tell me:p...:confused:

themrfreeze
June 26th, 2010, 01:42 AM
Installing Linux on a desktop is relatively easy. Installing it on a laptop and getting all of the laptop-specific stuff working (like suspend/hibernation, function keys, fan control, power management, etc.) can be exceptionally difficult. Sometimes it's not even possible.

I'm in the same boat as you (wanting a Linux laptop but not quite sure which way to go), and the decision is not an easy one (and I work in IT!) With a laptop that has Ubuntu pre-installed (ie: System76, ZaReason, and even Dell), everything works out of the box...there's no messing around necessary. You pay for the convenience though...a narrower selection of machines, and the price will be a bit higher. There's also the question of what happens down the road...will parts for your System76 or ZaReason laptop be available a few years down the road? Will the companies even still exist?

With a mainstream brand, the question of parts or the company being around isn't really an issue. However, you have to deal with generally poorer technical support (including NO Linux support), and obviously there's the question of whether Ubuntu will work 100% on whatever particular laptop you decide to buy.

So ultimately, you need to weigh all the factors and decide what you're comfortable going with.

Bluspace
June 26th, 2010, 02:40 AM
@themrfreeze

Yes, that is precisely the dilemma! Thanks for summing it up so succinctly.

To make matters even more interesting, this question also seems to be answered on principles, as well as on utility. One may like using Ubuntu, maybe even prefer it, but I know many who also believe in it, and open source software in general(I suppose I am guilty of this a bit:p).

In fact, before remembering about system76(I heard about it a while back, but had no money), I was looking at the 13in Macbook pro, primarily because of its battery life, portability, and well, it wasn't a windows machine(I have a desktop for that, I thought).

But you are entirely correct, Linux is fairly easy to get working on the desktop, and more difficult to get working on a Laptop. In fact, I have Ubuntu on a second hard drive in this computer right now. Works very nicely. The old laptop that just died, however, always had some kind of problem, and forget about all the extra buttons, and power management features. Granted, I didn't spend a whole lot of time working on it... Ubuntu was the closest OS to achieving functional status, whereas (free?)BSD was the least. That was a long time ago however...

I suppose I will have to mull this over some more. The one thing I do know, is that I need a machine with enough battery life for class(at least 3 hours, note taking), but enough performance to code, run multiple apps, and run a vm on the off hours. The light form factor was obviously ideal, and generally goes hand in hand with the battery life, which puts me in with the Lemur, If i go S76 it seems...

I see Tom has 2 Gazelle ultra's left... Can anyone tell me what their experience was with these? I would be looking at the one with the p8400, 500gb 7200rpm drive, and 2gb ram. How much of a performance boost would this give me over the Lemur, and how much extra weight, heat and any other troubles should I expect? Integrated graphics? Screen resolution? 64bit? Quality in general? etc. Thanks for all the help guys!

themrfreeze
June 26th, 2010, 04:44 AM
To make matters even more interesting, this question also seems to be answered on principles, as well as on utility. One may like using Ubuntu, maybe even prefer it, but I know many who also believe in it, and open source software in general(I suppose I am guilty of this a bit:p).



All operating system have their supporters and detractors.



In fact, before remembering about system76(I heard about it a while back, but had no money), I was looking at the 13in Macbook pro, primarily because of its battery life, portability, and well, it wasn't a windows machine(I have a desktop for that, I thought).

I administer a network with a lot of Mac laptops. The 13" MBPro is a sweet machine, and Apple does some great industrial design, but if you think that all that extra money you spend on one equates to better reliability, think again.



I suppose I will have to mull this over some more. The one thing I do know, is that I need a machine with enough battery life for class(at least 3 hours, note taking), but enough performance to code, run multiple apps, and run a vm on the off hours.


Battery life and performance are generally an inverse relationship...3 hours is a lot to ask out of any machine. You could always carry a spare battery. Also, maybe using a netbook for class, and notebook for serious work, might be a solution.



The light form factor was obviously ideal, and generally goes hand in hand with the battery life, which puts me in with the Lemur, If i go S76 it seems...

I'm looking long and hard at a Lemur too. However, the 64-bit version of Linux is a stumbling block (since Adobe pulled the 64-bit version of Flash). Not sure if the Lemur can be had with 32-bit Ubuntu or not.

Bluspace
June 26th, 2010, 05:11 AM
Battery life and performance are generally an inverse relationship...3 hours is a lot to ask out of any machine. You could always carry a spare battery. Also, maybe using a netbook for class, and notebook for serious work, might be a solution.Naturally, and this is something I quickly noticed hasn't changed since last time I looked at laptops a few years back. I actually am still considering a Pangolin with a second battery, and a car adapter, however, I just am not sure how much of a nuisance it would be to keep charging...swapping... charging...etc. In fact, can someone who does do this, tell me if there is an option to hibernate/standby(I suppose using the hard disk) when you switch the battery, so you can go right back into what you were doing?

As for the netbook option... yes Ive considered it, but actually, I think that the better equivalent is just using my desktop for serious work, and getting something like a Lemur, which really can be used for most things. I guess I am beginning to answer my own questions here:p...



I'm looking long and hard at a Lemur too. However, the 64-bit version of Linux is a stumbling block (since Adobe pulled the 64-bit version of Flash). Not sure if the Lemur can be had with 32-bit Ubuntu or not. I heard about that... food for thought...:confused:

tech newbie
June 26th, 2010, 06:24 PM
I though on 64bit linux you can run 32bit flash with the package nspluginwrapper ?

msrinath80
June 26th, 2010, 06:34 PM
With the new Google chrome, flash is inbuilt. So no need to worry.

lukeiamyourfather
June 27th, 2010, 04:18 AM
With the new Google chrome, flash is inbuilt. So no need to worry.

Ummm, no? Just installed Google Chrome today on a new system. Youtube and other Flash sites didn't work until installing Adobe Flash Player by itself.

lukeiamyourfather
June 27th, 2010, 04:23 AM
Does system 76 include the necessary windows driver with the lemur/pangolin?

Not sure if they include drivers for Windows or not. Either way drivers for their components are available from other sources since they use components from other manufacturers for their systems. For example video drivers can be obtained directly from nVidia or ATI, or network drivers can be obtained from Intel, Realtek, Broadcom, etc. Chances are though if using Windows 7 for dual boot you might not need to download any drivers at all. Also consider virtualization with VirtualBox or similar for using Windows. Cheers!

spencercarran
June 27th, 2010, 06:04 AM
Battery life and performance are generally an inverse relationship...3 hours is a lot to ask out of any machine. You could always carry a spare battery. Also, maybe using a netbook for class, and notebook for serious work, might be a solution.
My 3-year-old Macbook can last up to 4.5-5 hours on battery, and the newer models (depending on which one) allegedly get somewhere from 6-10 hours. This is partly because Apple has very nice batteries, but it also seems to be something in OS X that does a good job of power management; my battery life is noticeably shorter in Ubuntu or Windows 7 than in OS X. It seems to me like 3 hours is a reasonable minimum to expect for battery life on a new machine. Otherwise, you don't have a laptop so much as a portable desktop.

As for carrying a spare battery, wouldn't that require shutting down your computer, pulling out the battery, putting the other one in, and booting up again? Not exactly the optimal solution for when you're sitting in class taking notes.

mobius357
June 27th, 2010, 09:39 AM
I have an Asus UL50VT(big brother of the UL30), and most everything works out of the box. The switchable graphics does not, and most likely won't for a long while. The backlight controls don't work, but there are workarounds. I haven't checked since updating to 10.4, but the webcam video was upside down, but fixable. I see up to 8 hours battery life with Ubuntu, and up to 10 hours in Windows.

The UL30A you linked is very similar to the Lemur. The only significant difference is the battery capacity. Asus managed to fit a HUGE battery without it sticking out, 84 watt-hours.

The U30Jc is a thicker, heavier machine using a full power i3. The battery is the same, but expect shorter life with the i3. The switchable graphics won't work in Ubuntu, and the 310m may not work at all. This one has an internal DVD drive.

Overall, the Lemur is a nicer more polished machine from a better company to do business with. Obviously, everything "just works". It is thinner and lighter than the other two. I think the screen looked better too. I really liked the one I bought, but was disappointed by the battery life. If System76 eventually refreshes the Lemur with the core i culv processors and increased battery capacity, I'd jump on it and replace my Asus in a heartbeat. Switchable graphics would be a very alluring unicorn too.

If 3 hours battery life is enough I'd say buy the lemur. If you think you'll need to go all day though classes away from an outlet, the UL30a is a decent machine. I would pass on the u30Jc, there are better options once you step up to the full powers processors.

Bluspace
June 27th, 2010, 01:12 PM
@Mobius357

Thanks for the info!

Few more questions:

-Is the 3 hours of battery life on the lemur, before or after power saving measures?

-Has anyone ever figured out what happened to the 4+hours some were reporting in the earlier Lemur threads?

-I am planning on going with a SSD drive if I get the Lemur, how much extra battery life can I expect?

Thanks in advance....

mobius357
June 27th, 2010, 03:31 PM
The 3 hours should be "out of the box" Mine was a bit hungrier at 2.5 OOTB, getting up to 3hours after power saving tweaks. Back luck with sample variance, probably, the consensus seems to be 3+ hours. I don't know what changed, but Ubuntu power management has always been poor. Don't expect a large difference in battery life with an SSD, hard drives don't consume much power anyway.

msrinath80
June 27th, 2010, 05:32 PM
"Don't expect a large difference in battery life with an SSD, hard drives don't consume much power anyway"

+1 Totally agree. While I do not deny that the SSD can significantly speed up access time, I also realize that the SSD comes with its own disadvantages. Other than the finite number of write cycles, the SSD is known to generate a copius amount of heat (more heat for higher capacity SSDs). Even if the SSD ended up consuming say 10-15% lesser power compared to the hard drive, the advantage is offset by the heat generated, which requires the fan to power up more often. Either way you lose battery. Traditional 2.5 inch hard drives have really matured over the years and are now quite efficient both in terms of power consumption and performance. No reason to dump mature technology for beta versions, unless you plan on playing scapegoat :)

jbelmonte
June 27th, 2010, 06:19 PM
A review (http://www.notebookreview.com/default.asp?newsID=4647) of the 160GB Intel X25-M SSD Drive that System76 offers indicates:

1. Blazing performance
2. Much better battery life
3. Low heat

Upgrading to this SSD will yield big benefits.

Some older and some low quality SSDs could use more power and generate more heat, but not the 160GB Intel X25-M.

Bluspace
June 27th, 2010, 08:00 PM
I have generally heard nothing but good things about the Intel SSD's. While I could be wrong about this, it does seem, from what I have read, that there should at least be some improvement in battery life, overall performance, and heat. Certainly an improvement in performance.

Again, I could be wrong, however, I haven't seen anywhere that says that heat was actually more of an issue with the intel SSD's. Correct me if I am wrong of course, you would be saving me quite a bit of money...:p

Certainly there must be someone on here that actually has an SSD in their S76(Lemur?) Laptop.Perhaps you could shed some light on the issue?

lukeiamyourfather
June 28th, 2010, 05:35 AM
Getting a SSD drive for better battery life is a complete waste of money. The display and processor both use an order of magnitude more power than a conventional hard disk. Going from 4-5 watts to 2-3 watts (as in going from hard disk to SSD) is a drop in the ocean. What will make a significant difference is LED backlight display and low voltage processor which can cut dozens of watts from the power consumption and thus prolong battery life. Cheers!

PabloH
June 28th, 2010, 08:17 AM
I don't think an SSD is going to make much difference on battery, but it is worth it for its other features if you can afford it.

The Intel's in particular are well made products, hardly beta. The only downsides are price and more limited storage. I can live with those downsides.

The MTBF of the SSD's is more than acceptable. If you trust any 5 year old hard drive in a laptop, you are in for a rude surprise sooner rather than later. Spinning platters at 5400 or 7200 RPM in a laptop that gets moved constantly is not a good formula for longevity.

rewyllys
June 29th, 2010, 02:30 PM
My old Acer finally died this week... at just about the right time I suppose, since I was planning on purchasing a new laptop for uni anyway.:p Anyhow, being in the market to buy my own computer this time, I must say, I am quite tempted by System 76's offerings, and overall attitude. . . .
You might take a look also at the offerings of ZaReason,

http://zareason.com/shop/home.php?cat=250

Bluspace
June 29th, 2010, 03:44 PM
You might take a look also at the offerings of ZaReason,

http://zareason.com/shop/home.php?cat=250Indeed, I have been looking there as well. Mostly at the Alto 1454, because it seems to be right in the middle in regards to performance, portability, battery life and price. Still awaiting an email back from zareason, actually.

One of the things that has pushed me more towards the S76 camp, is the fact that there is information, and reviews from people who actually bought the particular model you are going to buy. I have not been able to dig up any external information on the Alto 1454, whereas, I was able to come here and talk to all of you who actually own or know a bit about the computer I am actually considering buying. If you have any information on the zareason product lineup, however, I would be interested. Thanks!

castlefox
June 30th, 2010, 06:08 AM
I have an Asus UL50VT(big brother of the UL30), and most everything works out of the box. The switchable graphics does not, and most likely won't for a long while. The backlight controls don't work, but there are workarounds. I haven't checked since updating to 10.4, but the webcam video was upside down, but fixable. I see up to 8 hours battery life with Ubuntu, and up to 10 hours in Windows.

The UL30A you linked is very similar to the Lemur. The only significant difference is the battery capacity. Asus managed to fit a HUGE battery without it sticking out, 84 watt-hours.

The U30Jc is a thicker, heavier machine using a full power i3. The battery is the same, but expect shorter life with the i3. The switchable graphics won't work in Ubuntu, and the 310m may not work at all. This one has an internal DVD drive.

Overall, the Lemur is a nicer more polished machine from a better company to do business with. Obviously, everything "just works". It is thinner and lighter than the other two. I think the screen looked better too. I really liked the one I bought, but was disappointed by the battery life. If System76 eventually refreshes the Lemur with the core i culv processors and increased battery capacity, I'd jump on it and replace my Asus in a heartbeat. Switchable graphics would be a very alluring unicorn too.

If 3 hours battery life is enough I'd say buy the lemur. If you think you'll need to go all day though classes away from an outlet, the UL30a is a decent machine. I would pass on the u30Jc, there are better options once you step up to the full powers processors.


Ya I've been really wanting to pick up the Lemur but the only thing really keeping me back is the battery life. Now im trying to hold myself off until there is a hardware update.

macogw
July 2nd, 2010, 03:01 PM
One of the things that has pushed me more towards the S76 camp, is the fact that there is information, and reviews from people who actually bought the particular model you are going to buy. I have not been able to dig up any external information on the Alto 1454, whereas, I was able to come here and talk to all of you who actually own or know a bit about the computer I am actually considering buying. If you have any information on the zareason product lineup, however, I would be interested. Thanks!

I don't have an Alto, but I bought my UltraLap from them 2 years ago. My brother bought the same one a couple of months later because mine's so nice :) I'm intending to buy a Terra HD when they're released. I was playing with the Strata laptops and the Terra at Southeast LinuxFest. They all seemed pretty nice, I'm just not in the market for another fullsize laptop. The UltraLap is still serving me well. I didn't think I was in the market for a netbook either, til I felt how light the Terra was and found it had a fullsize keyboard.

If you want information on exact parts, you can email ZaReason. They started holding Q&A sessions in #zareason on Freenode IRC (the server all IRC clients in Ubuntu are set to connect to first) too. There was one last Thursday and one this past Wednesday.