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oldefoxx
June 22nd, 2010, 07:04 AM
Why the title? Because it is suppose to get your attention. Did it work? I guess so. So what did you decide? I have no idea unless you respond with a post of your own.

Lost? That is often what happens to me. Here is an example: You are fairly new to Ubuntu or a beginner, and you get through the download and CD burn process, and your efforts to install Ubuntu seems to pay off. Next day, you boot up, and Ubuntu starts, but it shows a small box on a black field and talks about being unable to do more than start in low resolution.

Now what? You wiped out Windows with the install, so you lost your PC, right? So this is of course not good. You decide to get Windows back on it and forget all about Ubuntu. Can it happen? At least the small box, black field, and notice about low resolution has, to me, on a number of occasions. So what did I do instead? I booted up the LiveCD, got back into a normal state, and from there I had the option to search for what might cause this and how to deal with it.

Did I come up with an answer? Not really. Working from he small box itself, I tried what it offered, but I was always in conflict with the X-server, so nothing happened. One of those deep mysteries, I guess. How did I finally get around it? I started over with a fresh install. Fact is, though CDs are designed to handled digital, my years of experience with thousands of them show that they can be very prone to errors. Different brands have different dyes used on the backside, and the quality of those dyes and how they work with different CD/DVD drives is never certain. At least not certain until you get into having to burn and use a number. And sometimes numbers count. Burn a few different CDs of the same download, or repeat your download and burn new CDs, and you may not have any problems on the next install.

Does that count for something? I guess on whether you run into a related problem, then you might think so. But where to put it so that others can find it?

And now we are to the crux of the matter: Where to put it. The choice of category means that many will not see it. I could put it under Absolute Beginner, General, Installation or maybe one of the other remaining categories. And if I pick a category and someone on the other side does not see it as a good fit, they just move it. Besides, it does not hang around. There is always something newer to deal with.

Maybe it should just be fixed. Great idea. Except that means figuring out how to start a bug report. You run all over, from link to link, and it remains hidden. You might smarten up and use Google, then type in ubuntu bug report, and you follow some of what it finds, you might get there. Hurray for you.

Except now you need to know what package to report on, or the process ID that was effected by it. Excuse me? How am I suppose to know thinks like that? I just have a situation to deal with, and report if I can, and you want me to solve a problem for you, like tell you exactly what was involved when this happened? So I look around for package info related to video, and I go with that. Then I'm asked to look over all existing bug reports and see if it is already reported. I would say that is pretty much a case of others wanting you to do some of their work for them. Sorry, I've already put hours, even days into this, and it has got to stop somewhere.

If I got a bug report in, then months later I am likely to get an email that I identified the wrong package, and I need to submit the bug report with the right package identified, Either that or someone hasn't been able to cause the same thing to happen, so the report can just be discarded. I might get a genuine response, but it is usually for me to just try and walk someone through the whole process that caused the problem. Sounds okay,
but I might be two versions of Ubuntu beyond that point by then.

This is not what I call promising. I try an alternative, which is to just post the problem and see what answers come up about it. If no answers, then I might go into some detail of how I worked around it. Then someone always grips because I did not keep it short and simple.

It's sort of like where is the Suggestion Box, or even if there is one? Compare forums to floors, and threads to cubicles, and the fact that the suggestion box is on the main floor just inside the HR office isn't going to go very far. Nobody likes HR in the first place, not if you have a real job to do.

So what is wrong here? Well, you have heard my take on the bug reporting process, but some people manage to use it. And the broad categories of the forums and constant push-back of posts to make room for new ones isn't really helping either.

Someone got on me once, well actually several have, but at different times, that I should be using a Q and A approach to the forums. Really? I thought forums were places for discussions. Seems that Q and A is better suited when posting to an Expert directly. One question, one answer, the final or best one, and you are done. Forum threads run more to Q-Q-A-Q-A-Q-A-A until somebody gets tired of asking, or there are no more forthcoming answers.

Someone might ask, "Yeah, but how about FAQ?" FAQs mean go see if someone else has asked before, then take the answer the got and go away. Actually, it means Frequently Asked Questions", but you get the idea.

FAQs have little to do with topic or category. You going to sit there and read though a bunch of FAQs, just hoping you can find one that sounds like it relates to your own problem? Go someplace else and just ask the question and get on with it, that is what I say.

We are missing something here. Forums are not just like floors in an office building, but they are like practice fields scattered all about. Sounds okay, but this field is for throwing,
that field is for catching, the field over there is for pitching,
and over there another catching and squatting field, then there are more fields for running, walking, swinging, and we are even now considering some meeting rooms, where we would talk about things like scoring, base and field layout, foul lines, positions,
names of the positions, purpose of pitcher-catcher-batter setup,
what counts as a foul, what counts as a hit, what we mean by swinging a bat, what a bat is. There is also some thought to having a field named Inning, but it involves so many of the other fields at once that we probably won't go that far. You have questions? Great, Visit the field or fields of your choice and feel free to put your question to anyone you meet there. I am sure that you will get plenty of help. Now if you aren't too sure of your way around here, then we have a newbie meeting room where you can go and learn about what fields there are and what they are called. You go to the fields on your own, and by what you find happening there, you can pick up on the game of baseball in no time. It can't be any easier than that.

You probably don't get my drift. No big deal. I just see a need for something more situation oriented, or more focused on the area where the problem appears or what it involves. Here are a few thoughts along that line:
Wireless Connectivity
Wired Connectivity
Home Networking
Network Security
Problems with Video
Problems with Sound
Problems with Printers
Problems with Scanners
Problems with Fax
Problems with All-in-1s
Problems with Webcams
Connecting Ubuntu to Windows Network
Connecting Ubuntu to MAC Network
Security Software for Ubuntu
Changing Monitor settings
Changing Video Chip options
Choice of 32-bit or 64-bit Ubuntu
Using 64-bit Ubuntu with certain applications (yes or no)
Interfacing Ubuntu with IPOD and other mobile devices
Doing complete and partial backups and restores under Ubuntu
Ensuring that multiple Linux installs are treated separately when installing Ubuntu.
Easy ways and tools for fixing problems with Grub 1 and 2
Easy ways and tools to change boot sequences as set up by Grub
Problems related to getting Ubuntu to boot after being installed
Problems with screen resolution and other screen settings

That is just a quick list. I am sure it can be extended by others. The trick is, expect the situation to occur again, and make it easy to track and follow if it does. Make note of how much of a problem it really is by having people flag if they are having that same problem. Developers know enough about their packages that they have an idea then of where to go to find any problems in their area, and even what people are finding they have to do to get around it. Developers also have the advantage of making specialized search inquiries that might cross one category with another in certain specialized cases. I think there is some potential here, but then that is just my opinion.

lisati
June 22nd, 2010, 07:35 AM
Is this a support request? If so, it might be better if it's shorter. If not, this thread should be moved.......

proggy
June 22nd, 2010, 07:45 AM
I decided to stop reading after the first couple lines

Spr0k3t
June 22nd, 2010, 07:47 AM
I made the decision to stop reading after the first part as well.

wilee-nilee
June 22nd, 2010, 07:52 AM
I can't read it I have them blocked.;)

lisati
June 22nd, 2010, 07:56 AM
Not really a support request or a testimonial, so moved to the cafe.

S.R
June 22nd, 2010, 07:58 AM
You probably don't get my drift. No big deal..

Couldn't have said it better.

bruno9779
June 22nd, 2010, 08:02 AM
Sooooo long.

I couldn't read through all that "beat around the bush" prose.

I guess I'll never know what the OP wanted to say

Paqman
June 22nd, 2010, 08:07 AM
Synopsis please?

Smart Viking
June 22nd, 2010, 08:07 AM
I actually read through it all.

varunendra
June 22nd, 2010, 08:10 AM
Why the title? Because it is suppose to get your attention. Did it work? I guess so. So what did you decide? I have no idea unless you respond with a post of your own.
Yes you got my (a total noob's) attention. So it worked somehow. I don't think I'm capable of coming up with a decision you sought, but I'd just like to add my humble opinion about a few of your concerns.


Someone got on me once, well actually several have, but at different times, that I should be using a Q and A approach to the forums. Really? I thought forums were places for discussions. Seems that Q and A is better suited when posting to an Expert directly. One question, one answer, the final or best one, and you are done. Forum threads run more to Q-Q-A-Q-A-Q-A-A until somebody gets tired of asking, or there are no more forthcoming answers. I don't mean to invalidate your concern about 'forum-for-discussion' thing, but this one is rather popular as a help & support forum. Plus, there are places in it for discussions.
Most of your points before this quoted para were more like testimony or recurring discussion type things. But from this para onwards, your post tends to suggestions & discussion about things that I'm unable to evaluate. Maybe experienced ones or admins can.


EDIT: I started when there were no replies. I thought I'd be the first to reply. :lol:

TheNessus
June 22nd, 2010, 08:12 AM
So to sum it up - you're thinking all the problems (which you didn't actualy try to solve) effect everyone else and this is why linux = bad?

Well, personally, I never had 95% of the problems you had, and I managed to solve the rest with a little bit of effort.

Paqman
June 22nd, 2010, 09:07 AM
Maybe it should just be fixed. Great idea. Except that means figuring out how to start a bug report. You run all over, from link to link, and it remains hidden. You might smarten up and use Google, then type in ubuntu bug report, and you follow some of what it finds, you might get there. Hurray for you.

Except now you need to know what package to report on, or the process ID that was effected by it. Excuse me? How am I suppose to know thinks like that?

The easiest way to report a bug is to hit Alt-F2 and run:

ubuntu-bug packagename

You do need to know the package name (or at least take a guess), and you'll need to have a Launchpad account, but everything else is handled for you, including automatically attaching some diagnostically useful technical info. Filing a bug in this way is not only easy, it will really help it get looked at and solved.

11hjpphty76lkjj
June 22nd, 2010, 08:25 PM
I also stopped after the first line or two.

Please do a tl;dr

Frogs Hair
June 22nd, 2010, 10:04 PM
Does the OP want a sub forum for every possible issue that may come up ? :confused:

steveneddy
June 22nd, 2010, 10:54 PM
I like hot dogs!


:shock:

wilee-nilee
June 22nd, 2010, 10:57 PM
I like hot dogs!


:shock:

I like personal diaries on the forum.:---)

ubunterooster
June 22nd, 2010, 11:14 PM
I have read all but one post in this thread. :( Birds have short attention spa...A GRUB!!! num num!

madjr
June 22nd, 2010, 11:53 PM
So to sum it up - you're thinking all the problems (which you didn't actualy try to solve) effect everyone else and this is why linux = bad?

Well, personally, I never had 95% of the problems you had, and I managed to solve the rest with a little bit of effort.

this

+1

lately i almost never have problems with ubuntu

i bought supported hardware, can't be happier

oldefoxx
July 3rd, 2010, 06:27 AM
A company I once worked for (in good standing, you understand), had a trouble ticket process where the writer was suppose to research for suitable codes to classify it under. You find a description that came close to what you wanted to report, you added the numeric code for that description as part of the report. And do this repeatedly until every found match completely covered a full but brief description of the problem.

This could take hours, of course. First, how do you single out one phrase in the midst of hundreds? They appeared to only be in the order that they had been added to a very long list. It was a printed list, no online search means, had to be done by eye. And if you happened to find a problem never seen before, what were you to do then? Nobody knew.

Not being particularly fond of paperwork, technicians quickly learned to just master a select group of numeric codes for inclusion in trouble tickets and skip the process of going through the list. You had four or five numbers in the bug report, that showed enough diligence and the trouble ticket went into the system without problems.

Later we heard that they were then trying to take the selected codes and reclassify the trouble tickets into groups that had some relationship to each other, hoping that then going through the trouble tickets, common causes could be tracked back to specific symptoms, the idea being that if you opened a new trouble ticket and found some decent, matching symptoms, the computer could come right back at you and tell you what was usually the cause.

Never happened. If you can get it in your mind's eye what was really going on, you might have some idea of the probable cause. I won't harp on that.

What I think worth stating is that often those trying to report something should be allowed to do that, and no more. What they have to add if pushed to go further isn't going to be of any real value, because they just don't know. But may havng them put someting in anyway, it now appears that they did know what to add, and so it gets routed down one path when it probably does not belong on that path at all. Had they left it out, someone else would have looked at it and tried to decide what was actually involved and added to the write up.

Put another way, including false data and miss-routing trouble tickets and bug reports may seem to increase efficiency overall, but that is only apparent to a numbers cruncher. But to go with what information can be had with some certainty might at least get the majority of such reports to be placed in the right category.

Or is that too hard for some of you to understand? After all, I don't want to get into this too far over your head

Sean Moran
July 3rd, 2010, 06:40 AM
.....

Kdar
July 3rd, 2010, 06:48 AM
I decided to stop reading after the first couple lines

+1....
I am too sleepy to read such loooong article.

Stancel
July 3rd, 2010, 07:21 AM
The situation you describe sounds like you had no graphics driver installed. Ubuntu does not come with graphics drivers pre-installed. You have to run Update Manager and get the updates for that release, then use Hardware Drivers to get the driver. It will ask to restart and then you'll automatically have a new better resolution.

If you're doing a distro upgrade (e.g. from Jaunty to Karmic, or Karmic to Lucid) the driver might be in error and cause this problem you had. In that case, make sure the driver you had installed is removed, then re-install it.

Do NOT install a graphics driver on top of another one you have already installed. If you installed it manually in the way described in the thread in my sig, remove it manually, then install another one. Always remove the previous one before installing a new one.

I hope this is helpful, and I did read ALL of both of your posts.:p

cchhrriiss121212
July 3rd, 2010, 10:05 AM
A company I once worked for...

Or is that too hard for some of you to understand? After all, I don't want to get into this too far over your head
Your idea is not too hard to understand, it is just that you have buried it under a massive amount of unrelated stories and hypothetical language.
Your first post could be summed up with "I think Ubuntu forums needs more precise and varied forum sections".
The second post could just say "Bug reports should be made easier".

oldefoxx
July 18th, 2010, 03:10 AM
Just buzzing by, and noted I wasn't the last poster.

Hmmm. Some are more concern with how thoughts are expressed and deploy the overuse of words, rather than deal with the thoughts themselves. How trite.

Others seek to make the point that if too many words are employed, they cannot bring themselves to read all the way through. That regardless of the thoughts involved, it is too dear a price to pay. Which one of us does that say the most about, I wonder.

One person suggests that I simplify it way down to two short sentences. Yes, that is what you might do, but I am afraid that I rise above that. Not a question of pride or vanity, but just striving to find meaning in things by first putting the matter into words.

To put it simply, words help shape concepts. Concepts bring meaning.

Ghil
July 18th, 2010, 04:10 AM
Just buzzing by, and noted I wasn't the last poster.

Hmmm. Some are more concern with how thoughts are expressed and deploy the overuse of words, rather than deal with the thoughts themselves. How trite.

Others seek to make the point that if too many words are employed, they cannot bring themselves to read all the way through. That regardless of the thoughts involved, it is too dear a price to pay. Which one of us does that say the most about, I wonder.


I am sorry to intervene in that, but that is not true. You are asking for one's time in helping/understanding your point of view/opinion. If too many words are written, there is two possible explanations for the wall of text: Either you are presenting an extremely complex concept, or you're repeating yourself and overstating a concept, which is really wrong. Optimizing said wall of text to it's simplest form (while still retaining the whole concept) isn't useless. It's respect for the people who are about to read you.
And if you can't take the time to trim the text a little of the superfluous, or if you're just to proud (or full of it) to cut a line, then what does that say about you?



One person suggests that I simplify it way down to two short sentences. Yes, that is what you might do, but I am afraid that I rise above that. Not a question of pride or vanity, but just striving to find meaning in things by first putting the matter into words.


Rising above that?....Isn't that pompous to think that you could be so great at words as to not overuse them?

here's a quote for you.



Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.




To put it simply, words help shape concepts. Concepts bring meaning.

Words help shape many things. An ocean of them just drowns the meaning in it's stead.

marshmallow1304
July 18th, 2010, 04:21 AM
Hmmm. Some are more concern with how thoughts are expressed and deploy the overuse of words, rather than deal with the thoughts themselves. How trite.

Others seek to make the point that if too many words are employed, they cannot bring themselves to read all the way through. That regardless of the thoughts involved, it is too dear a price to pay. Which one of us does that say the most about, I wonder.

One person suggests that I simplify it way down to two short sentences. Yes, that is what you might do, but I am afraid that I rise above that. Not a question of pride or vanity, but just striving to find meaning in things by first putting the matter into words.

To put it simply, words help shape concepts. Concepts bring meaning.


English major?