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newbie2
June 11th, 2010, 03:19 PM
BRUSSELS—The European Union's top Internet official took aim at Microsoft Corp. on Thursday, warning that governments can accidentally lock themselves into one company's software for decades by setting it as a standard for their technology systems.

EU Internet Commissioner Neelie Kroes, in her previous post as EU antitrust chief, fined Microsoft hundreds of millions of euros (dollars) in a lengthy row over the company's refusal to share some data with rivals and the tying of a Web browser to a best-selling operating system.

She now says she wants to draw up detailed guidelines for European governments to encourage them to require other software, especially programs based on open source code that is freely shared between developers.

The final programs are sometimes -- but not always -- given away to users. IBM and Oracle, for example, charge customers for some software they make that is based on open source code.

Kroes is aiming to influence government tender specifications which can demand all suppliers to the state to stick to a certain type of technology. This can have a massive impact by favoring one company's software over others.

She cited tax departments requiring the use of a specific Web browser to file online tax returns.

"Many authorities have found themselves unintentionally locked into proprietary technology for decades and after a certain point that original choice becomes so ingrained that alternatives risk being systematically ignored," she said.

"That's a waste of public money that most public bodies can no longer afford," she told a conference organized by Open Forum Europe, a group of technology companies that want to promote software based on open source code.

She openly favored open software saying users could choose between "the one that you can download from the Website and that you can implement without restrictions or the other one which you have to buy which is restricted to certain fields and which requires royalty payments for embedded intellectual property rights -- and the answer is obvious."

Governments should have a "clear justification" if they mandate proprietary software that sets royalties and restrictions, she said.

Google Inc. has tried to rival Microsoft's office programs by providing similar software for free -- something it can afford to do because it develops most of its revenue from selling advertising linked to widely used search engine. Microsoft relies mostly on selling the software it develops.
http://www.boston.com/business/technology/articles/2010/06/10/eu_warns_against_proprietary_software/

KROES for EU president ! 8)

madjr
June 11th, 2010, 06:06 PM
The European Union's top Internet official took aim at Microsoft Corp. on Thursday (at the open forum europe), warning that governments can accidentally lock themselves into one company's software for decades by setting it as a standard for their technology systems.

EU Internet Commissioner Neelie Kroes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neelie_Kroes), in her previous post as EU antitrust chief, fined Microsoft hundreds of millions of euros (dollars) in a lengthy row over the company's refusal to share some data with rivals and the tying of a Web browser to a best-selling operating system.

She now says she wants to draw up detailed guidelines for European governments to encourage them to require other software, especially programs based on open source code that is freely shared between developers.

http://cdn.bitelia.com/files/2010/06/Neelie_kroes.jpg

http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D9G8BMTO0.htm

http://ostatic.com/blog/europes-neelie-kroes-sticks-to-her-open-source-guns

this lady rocks ! what's her facebook page, am a fan. :guitar:

earthpigg
June 11th, 2010, 06:37 PM
if i asked her out on a date, do you think she would say yes?

Xorp21
June 11th, 2010, 06:37 PM
Got to love our Neelie Kroes, she might even be our next prime-minister!

lostinxlation
June 11th, 2010, 06:47 PM
Another post with the same topic went to the next page with zero response 2 hours ago, but yours at least got 2 replies.. May be the pic attracted some audience ?

Sealbhach
June 11th, 2010, 06:53 PM
A politician who actually gets it:


"Many authorities have found themselves unintentionally locked into proprietary technology for decades and after a certain point that original choice becomes so ingrained that alternatives risk being systematically ignored. That's a waste of public money that most public bodies can no longer afford."

.

sydbat
June 11th, 2010, 06:54 PM
Another post with the same topic went to the next page with zero response 2 hours ago, but yours at least got 2 replies.. May be the pic attracted some audience ?Apparently...


if i asked her out on a date, do you think she would say yes?

Legendary_Bibo
June 11th, 2010, 06:58 PM
Microsoft's success with businesses is starting to look more gilded by the second. It's even looking like that for the desktop user considering a lot of them are switching to Macs, and some to Linux.

alphaniner
June 11th, 2010, 07:05 PM
Until the bureaucrats put forth the revalation that they are the real waste of money, I shall remain unimpressed.

KiwiNZ
June 11th, 2010, 07:11 PM
Clearly her non neutrality on the issue should mean that the Microsoft fines should be set aside and all monies refunded by the EU.

How can someone who is clearly and publicly one sided on an issue stand in judgement? it shows that it may well be a case of those in glass houses should not throw stones.

Also good Government purchasing means they should be free to get the "best deal" possible and not be ham stringed by some looney philosophized poliicy .

alphaniner
June 11th, 2010, 07:17 PM
How can someone who is clearly and publicly one sided on an issue stand in judgement?

A excellent point.

barney385
June 11th, 2010, 07:57 PM
MS anti-trust issues are well documented. How much does open-source software cost in your area?

KiwiNZ
June 11th, 2010, 08:15 PM
MS anti-trust issues are well documented. How much does open-source software cost in your area?

For a Corporate or Government Department to implement a change from say MS Office to Open Office the cost is high, very high. When investigated it usually determines the cost benefit analysis does not favor the switch.

Naggobot
June 11th, 2010, 08:18 PM
Most probably have an inclination to read this as M$ negative comment but actually M$ may not be the worst offender when it comes to hoggin up public money. I For example in Finland someone looked in to health care systems and found that there can be over 100 separate information systems in use in one hospital. (original in Finnish (http://ubuntuforums.org/www.serapi.fi/esitykset/soteku01092005.ppt) M$ proprietary Powerpoint which can be opened with Open source impress).

Now try to invent reasons why these systems do not talk to each others properly and why there are so many in use?

Might it be that one small reason is that when you get one closed system you have to stick whit it and it might be expensive and difficult to migrate away from it.

I think other extreme case are CAD systems used by companies (not so much public sector). There is no practical way to switch from the system you once have committed to since the cost would be enormous. And I suspect that this is the main reason why extremely expensive high end CAD systems are bug ridden and poorly supported even though customer pays thousands of € / year for support.

germanix
June 11th, 2010, 08:23 PM
Way to go Mrs. Kroes, keep up the good work!

RiceMonster
June 11th, 2010, 08:31 PM
Most probably have an inclination to read this as M$

If you don't want people to, then start by dropping the silly dollar sign thing.

Naggobot
June 11th, 2010, 08:35 PM
If you don't want people to, then start by dropping the silly dollar sign thing.

Now who said I would not want to

:lolflag:

But I thanks for the comment. I'll try not to emphasize the $ in the future. Unfortunately M€ is not in the market anymore.

KiwiNZ
June 11th, 2010, 08:37 PM
If you don't want people to, then start by dropping the silly dollar sign thing.

+1

That got old about 10 years ago. Can we please move on from it .

emarkay
June 11th, 2010, 08:39 PM
I have heard that the main objection to FOSS is "that you can't sue anyone if it goes wrong..."

Darn Capitalists always ruin things...

Here too:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1507256

earthpigg
June 11th, 2010, 08:44 PM
How can someone who is clearly and publicly one sided on an issue stand in judgement?

"Vote for me, i don't take sides on issues!"

or

"I'm a great judge, i refuse to make judgments!"



I'm not sure which is more ridiculous.

RiceMonster
June 11th, 2010, 08:47 PM
"Vote for me, don't take sides on issues!"

or

"I'm a great judge, i refuse to make judgments!"



I'm not sure which is more ridiculous.

Being biased ("one sided") and refusing to make a judgement are not the same thing.

V for Vincent
June 11th, 2010, 08:53 PM
"Vote for me, don't take sides on issues!"

or

"I'm a great judge, i refuse to make judgments!"



I'm not sure which is more ridiculous.

Well, objectivity is important. That said, I don't see what she says as one-sided. She's the anti-trust chief and she wants to prevent lock-in, which very much exists with a lot of microsoft products.

madjr
June 11th, 2010, 10:01 PM
For a Corporate or Government Department to implement a change from say MS Office to Open Office the cost is high, very high. When investigated it usually determines the cost benefit analysis does not favor the switch.

i disagree with your ideology

this same ideology has applied to petroleum for decades and look at what the world is at...

we clearly postpone and postpone what we should had done.

some things you have to do even if it hurts at first (the pain will ease and eventually disappear). Is like overprotective parents not wanting to expose a kid to the real world and develop as a man, everything must be given to him in a silver platter and thus we create this spoiled brat

it's absurd that we let one company become a "standard".. imposing instead of competing... and giving it so much power/influence even over our own governments

the long term effect of independence from the monopoly is just priceless

Chronon
June 11th, 2010, 10:17 PM
For a Corporate or Government Department to implement a change from say MS Office to Open Office the cost is high, very high. When investigated it usually determines the cost benefit analysis does not favor the switch.

But that's the whole game with proprietary lock-in, right? I get people to purchase the means to produce files (in a format of my creation) that cannot be easily/adequately translated into others, causing the switching cost to be very high. This compels customers to stick with my product.

lancest
June 11th, 2010, 11:30 PM
For a Corporate or Government Department to implement a change from say MS Office to Open Office the cost is high, very high. When investigated it usually determines the cost benefit analysis does not favor the switch.

Poor example. Moving to the cloud.
Google documents.
Real example: City of Los Angeles = big $ saved

newbie2
June 12th, 2010, 03:10 PM
We can’t have a truly digital Europe without interoperability. Open standards and better standard-setting in general will really help us address this challenge - that was my message this morning at today’s Open Forum Europe Summit in Brussels.

Getting this right will boost competition, shield companies and authorities from being locked-in to a limited range of devices or applications and offers companies and taxpayers better value for money. Getting it right will also take a strong collegial effort between myself, my colleagues in the Commission, the industry, standard-setting bodies and others. We won’t be able to make all the improvements outlined in the Digital Agenda for Europe in one year – so luckily my mandate is for five years!

The full speech is here
http://blogs.ec.europa.eu/neelie-kroes/open-standards-matter/
http://ec.europa.eu/commission_barroso/kroes/index_en.html
:popcorn:

spoons
June 12th, 2010, 04:04 PM
Isn't the EU also pushing software patents and ACTA? If so, hypocrisy much?

pwnst*r
June 12th, 2010, 04:14 PM
Poor example. Moving to the cloud.
Google documents.
Real example: City of Los Angeles = big $ saved

Easy as that huh? Have you ever worked for a corporation? Probably not.

sydbat
June 12th, 2010, 07:02 PM
Easy as that huh? Have you ever worked for a corporation? Probably not.Maybe not "as easy as that", but nowhere near as bad/hard as certain interested parties try to make it seem.

Switching to Win7 from XP, for example, is literally like switching from Windows to Mac or a Linux distro. Same learning curve, same amount of time to make sure everything is compatible, same difficulties for users to adjust. This is an everyday occurrence in businesses and government offices here.

This is the reality.

A real life example - where my wife works, they had specific software built for their XP infrastructure. The initial cost was over $100,000. After 6 years, and and additional (well over) $200,000, they have finally fixed most of the bugs and the system runs smoothly for the most part. Now, they are being pressured by Microsoft (yes, pressured) to move to Windows 7 (desktops) and Windows Server 2008. Doing so will cost her government agency more than the licensing and (almost from scratch to be compatible) software rebuild, it will cost time and retraining for the new base system too. This is from their IT department.

So they are reluctant to change because the $$ will be so high, and the retraining will take away from productive work, which also costs $$. They want to move to some FOSS equivalents to help reduce costs, but are being told from non-IT higher-ups that they cannot do so. They are also being told to "do the upgrade" and "just make it work" at "no extra cost".

kamaboko
June 12th, 2010, 07:16 PM
Poor example. Moving to the cloud.
Google documents.
Real example: City of Los Angeles = big $ saved

And when they lose their Inet connection for even an hour, estimate that cost. Thousands of stranded employees not doing a thing. The cloud isn't all that it's cracked up to be. Lots of great discussions on LinkedIn from cloud developers.

sdowney717
June 12th, 2010, 07:32 PM
I ran into my cities IT department manager who apparently likes Linux a lot, develops in it too. They were going to switch over the city, had everything worked out.
BUT, he was squashed by higher ups. He claimed it was due to some senior people who have large investments in MS stock.
He carries with him a boot able linux flash drive around his neck. And he counsels people to switch to Linux.

MCVenom
June 12th, 2010, 07:33 PM
This Kroes person needs to teach the American government what's up! :P

madjr
June 12th, 2010, 07:37 PM
And when they lose their Inet connection for even an hour, estimate that cost. Thousands of stranded employees not doing a thing. The cloud isn't all that it's cracked up to be. Lots of great discussions on LinkedIn from cloud developers.

this is why they're working on offline functionality that will sync once internet comes back on.

KiwiNZ
June 12th, 2010, 07:45 PM
i disagree with your ideology

this same ideology has applied to petroleum for decades and look at what the world is at...

we clearly postpone and postpone what we should had done.

some things you have to do even if it hurts at first (the pain will ease and eventually disappear). Is like overprotective parents not wanting to expose a kid to the real world and develop as a man, everything must be given to him in a silver platter and thus we create this spoiled brat

it's absurd that we let one company become a "standard".. imposing instead of competing... and giving it so much power/influence even over our own governments

the long term effect of independence from the monopoly is just priceless

From my own experience ( retired CIO ) the cost /benefit analysis never came out on the right side of the ledger for the initial implementation or the ongoing support with for Open source works out higher in larger organisations than Proprietary.

Then of course you have the nightmare of interoperability with other Organizations and partners whom have not changed.

The idea that the "pain will go away" is an utopian dream that never materializes .

mickie.kext
June 12th, 2010, 08:13 PM
From my own experience ( retired CIO ) the cost /benefit analysis never came out on the right side of the ledger for the initial implementation or the ongoing support with for Open source works out higher in larger organisations than Proprietary.

Then of course you have the nightmare of interoperability with other Organizations and partners whom have not changed.

The idea that the "pain will go away" is an utopian dream that never materializes .

So your point is that nobody should bother to switch to FLOSS?

KiwiNZ
June 12th, 2010, 08:51 PM
So your point is that nobody should bother to switch to FLOSS?

No.

My point is , if you think its a magic elixer of fiscal savings and freedom, wake up and think again because it is not.

If you think it is a software analgesic, again, think again, the implementation and on going support in the medium to large corporate and government market will be a whole lot of hurt.

In the SME market , things are a litte different and the hurt is less.

XSAlliN
June 12th, 2010, 09:05 PM
Agreed. As for Google - that's a different kind of evil.There are many that believe google is free as an act of good will, yet same people ignore the importance of "information" and how much it costs for those interested.

quinnten83
June 12th, 2010, 09:05 PM
Got to love our Neelie Kroes, she might even be our next prime-minister!

She said in the papers yesterday that her place is in Brussels, so we're stuck with Mark Rutte for PM.

quinnten83
June 12th, 2010, 09:14 PM
For a Corporate or Government Department to implement a change from say MS Office to Open Office the cost is high, very high. When investigated it usually determines the cost benefit analysis does not favor the switch.

isn't that exactly her point? That businesses have become so trapped in a format that switching is almost impossible? And you should check all your options before making a purchase from a proprietary vendor? or making their formats a standard? She never said in that article don't buy from proprietary vendors, she just said, be careful and weigh your options because there are consequences attached to them.
I'm sorry, I don't see the problem...

MCVenom
June 12th, 2010, 09:15 PM
Agreed. As for Google - that's a different kind of evil.There are many that believe google is free as an act of good will, yet same people ignore the importance of "information" and how much it costs for those interested.
Who? What? When? Where?

Google was only mentioned a couple times, and evil was not mentioned at all in the OP, so what does this have to do with the topic?

MCVenom
June 12th, 2010, 09:16 PM
isn't that exactly her point? That businesses have become so trapped in a format that switching is almost impossible? And you should check all your options before making a purchase from a proprietary vendor? Or making their formats a standard? She never said in that article don't buy from proprietary vendors, she just said, be careful and weigh your options because there are consequences attached to them.
I'm sorry, i don't see the problem...
+1

ugm6hr
June 12th, 2010, 10:01 PM
My point is , if you think its a magic elixer of fiscal savings and freedom, wake up and think again because it is not.

I don't think she ever intended that to be the message.

European intervention would not be necessary if OSS was clearly a cheaper alternative - even the UK have an OSS statement - but it is not followed, since the short term transition costs (time and money) can be so high.

However, she obviously feels that OSS vendors should at least be able to tender for these contracts, which are presumably frequently offered only to MS suplliers (and hence, anti-competitive).

I suspect this is a much bigger anti-competitive issue than the W7 browser choice.

KiwiNZ
June 12th, 2010, 10:52 PM
I don't think she ever intended that to be the message.

European intervention would not be necessary if OSS was clearly a cheaper alternative - even the UK have an OSS statement - but it is not followed, since the short term transition costs (time and money) can be so high.

However, she obviously feels that OSS vendors should at least be able to tender for these contracts, which are presumably frequently offered only to MS suplliers (and hence, anti-competitive).

I suspect this is a much bigger anti-competitive issue than the W7 browser choice.

Maybe so but a lot think it is.

OSS vendors are free to tender, however to be honest the RFP's I have seen from a lot of them are less than professional.

murderslastcrow
June 12th, 2010, 11:15 PM
Yeah, Microsoft has a fairly comprehensive ball-grabbing initiative in pretty much every market at this point. Of course, they never grew to dominance in many areas simply because they weren't related to Windows or weren't necessary for functionality like some Windows programs are (think XBOX, Windows Phone/CE, Kin, Office Online, Windows Live Photo Gallery, etc).

It's pretty obvious that Microsoft wants to have their own formats take the cake, since they have them when they're not even necessary. OpenGL was pretty good around the time DirectX became a 'standard', mp3 was fine when they were pushing wma on Apple and other portable media vendors, wmv has never been better than avi, the list goes on.

When there is perfectly satisfactory open technology for formats, Microsoft purposely creates an unnecessary alternative that only works with their programs.

What implications are we SUPPOSED to take from those actions? It's all quite obvious- were they to use open formats, the market would be further diversified and they would make less money. So rather than make a superior product and relying on that, they choose to snare their current customers and prevent anyone from leaving, so they think the grass is only greener on that side since they don't really have any options except to rebuild their entire infrastructure.

I think it would be fantastic if the software market were built solely on the quality and features of the programs, not how pervasive restrictive formats have become. It's just holding us back to encourage the use of formats that don't respects a user's freedom, especially when those formats are being guided by someone who is driven by profits. It's just not a good idea. In any other situation, people would find this absolutely disgusting.

The only reason people stand for it is because they feel this whole desktop computing thing started with Windows, so why not just go with the flow?

It's perfectly synonymous to the declaration of a new nation and standards/laws by a foreign invader. All these tribes existed before Windows, but then Microsoft comes along with rudimentary tools and unifies everyone under their flag, even if that means killing some of the native inhabitants. There is no revolt because people find little necessity in it- keep people well fed and let them lay in the sunshine and they'll find little reason to change things.

Microsoft has done that game very well for a long time, but hopefully we can gain our freedom without causing ourselves an outrageous inconvenience so far as compatibility goes.

It's a war that cannot be fought, since the formats and systems that define it are frozen in time. The only way to change it is to make people feel incredibly uncomfortable using older technology, as though they've lost touch with the times. Microsoft themselves have had to face this same challenge in the form of Windows XP.

pwnst*r
June 13th, 2010, 03:46 AM
Maybe not "as easy as that", but nowhere near as bad/hard as certain interested parties try to make it seem.

Switching to Win7 from XP, for example, is literally like switching from Windows to Mac or a Linux distro. Same learning curve, same amount of time to make sure everything is compatible, same difficulties for users to adjust. This is an everyday occurrence in businesses and government offices here.

This is the reality.

A real life example - where my wife works, they had specific software built for their XP infrastructure. The initial cost was over $100,000. After 6 years, and and additional (well over) $200,000, they have finally fixed most of the bugs and the system runs smoothly for the most part. Now, they are being pressured by Microsoft (yes, pressured) to move to Windows 7 (desktops) and Windows Server 2008. Doing so will cost her government agency more than the licensing and (almost from scratch to be compatible) software rebuild, it will cost time and retraining for the new base system too. This is from their IT department.

So they are reluctant to change because the $$ will be so high, and the retraining will take away from productive work, which also costs $$. They want to move to some FOSS equivalents to help reduce costs, but are being told from non-IT higher-ups that they cannot do so. They are also being told to "do the upgrade" and "just make it work" at "no extra cost".

Really depends what company and my point was towards google docs. Internal clouds are one thing but having sensitive docs on another hosted site is ridiculous.

sydbat
June 13th, 2010, 04:13 AM
Really depends what company and my point was towards google docs. Internal clouds are one thing but having sensitive docs on another hosted site is ridiculous.Yes, I agree. This whole cloud thing is hopefully a passing phase.

madjr
June 13th, 2010, 06:42 PM
Yes, I agree. This whole cloud thing is hopefully a passing phase.

what lol :lolflag:

yeah sure uhumm

thats what ma granpa said about the internet

Dr. C
June 13th, 2010, 07:27 PM
Here is an example on how to migrate an enterprise to FLOSS the right way and save money big time. http://www.linux.com/news/enterprise/case-studies/7981-linux-picked-in-gendarmerie-lineup. Migrating the desktop OS is that last thing you do. You start with the servers, then the applications one by one, and finally the desktop OS close to a decade later, while saving money all along.

madjr
June 13th, 2010, 07:41 PM
Here is an example on how to migrate an enterprise to FLOSS the right way and save money big time. http://www.linux.com/news/enterprise/case-studies/7981-linux-picked-in-gendarmerie-lineup. Migrating the desktop OS is that last thing you do. You start with the servers, then the applications one by one, and finally the desktop OS close to a decade later, while saving money all along.

a decade later ?

tell that to google employees :D

jflaker
June 13th, 2010, 07:54 PM
Microsoft, Oracle and Sun, just as examples of proprietary software makers....

Now, I have seen this before, and it is happening in my company for YEARS. The USER is tasked with getting solutions in place and since they have dealt with X, with Y and with Z companies for so long, those are the company they went with.........

Herein is the rub......The systems DO NOT COMMUNICATE by themselves due to proprietary data formats, which only the companies who create them know....etc. So, in the end, we had 25+ servers for different business areas with 25+ pieces of middleware to do an export and transmit of data to the other system(s).

The solution COULD HAVE BEEN the IBM AS/400 (aka, iSeries) which already does all the things that they bought hardware and software to do. But because the ***U S E R*** didn't know how it worked, they went their own way and never got IT involved until they needed to get data from one system to the next......$$MILLIONS$$ spent because the USER didn't know what was available to them already.

SO....why are we so married to all this proprietary software? Because generally, CEO's, and CIO's (USERS with huge paychecks), who are generally disconnected from what technology can do for them, go with a name they know and are afraid of "FOSS". Afraid of FOSS because there aren't advertisements (propaganda) on TV and the radio....

Get the USERS out of the picture and let IT people come up with a solution that not only takes advantage of software and platforms you already own, and in the long run, will likely save $$MILLIONS$$.

Dr. C
June 13th, 2010, 08:01 PM
a decade later ?

tell that to google employees :D

It really depends on how addicted the enterprise is. It like cleaning up a drug addict or an alcoholic it can take time and cold turkey does not work in all cases. In some cases it can be done in a lot less time. Google is not as deep into propriety Microsoft technologies as many other enterprises.

sydbat
June 13th, 2010, 08:25 PM
Microsoft, Oracle and Sun, just as examples of proprietary software makers....

Now, I have seen this before, and it is happening in my company for YEARS. The USER is tasked with getting solutions in place and since they have dealt with X, with Y and with Z companies for so long, those are the company they went with.........

Herein is the rub......The systems DO NOT COMMUNICATE by themselves due to proprietary data formats, which only the companies who create them know....etc. So, in the end, we had 25+ servers for different business areas with 25+ pieces of middleware to do an export and transmit of data to the other system(s).

The solution COULD HAVE BEEN the IBM AS/400 (aka, iSeries) which already does all the things that they bought hardware and software to do. But because the ***U S E R*** didn't know how it worked, they went their own way and never got IT involved until they needed to get data from one system to the next......$$MILLIONS$$ spent because the USER didn't know what was available to them already.

SO....why are we so married to all this proprietary software? Because generally, CEO's, and CIO's (USERS with huge paychecks), who are generally disconnected from what technology can do for them, go with a name they know and are afraid of "FOSS". Afraid of FOSS because there aren't advertisements (propaganda) on TV and the radio....

Get the USERS out of the picture and let IT people come up with a solution that not only takes advantage of software and platforms you already own, and in the long run, will likely save $$MILLIONS$$.Unfortunately, there are "IT" people who know nothing. Because they know how to use a Microsoft product and get "certified", they become IT for some company. I know, I've seen it in person. It is frustrating when there are people who know more than one thing, but they have to fight those who only know one thing, and the 'boss' is IT illiterate and is convinced by the "better" argument (ie. this actually costs more, so it is better).

Example - I was working at a place where they had huge network problems (daily network crashes). They used Windows server 2003. I peripherally suggested looking into CentOS as an idea to test and see if it would work for the company. I was told, by the head IT guy, that he did not want to have something unreliable and impossible to configure in HIS network, and he went back to 'fixing' the Windows server. I was fired 2 days later.

KiwiNZ
June 13th, 2010, 08:29 PM
SO....why are we so married to all this proprietary software? Because generally, CEO's, and CIO's (USERS with huge paychecks), who are generally disconnected from what technology can do for them, go with a name they know and are afraid of "FOSS". Afraid of FOSS because there aren't advertisements (propaganda) on TV and the radio....
.

Before you make these sorts of statements , learns a bit and . Before my medical retirement I was CIO , one of your "users with huge pay cheque", I have the following

Degree in Computer Engineering
MCSE
Cisco and HP Certified
ITIL Certified
IBM Certified

15 years experience running IT units , the last a very big IT house , plus my own IT Company.

CIO's and like get there because they know what they are doing.

jflaker
June 13th, 2010, 08:31 PM
...SNIPPED....I was told, by the head IT guy, that he did not want to have something unreliable and impossible to configure in HIS network, and he went back to 'fixing' the Windows server. I was fired 2 days later.

Kind of ironic saying that you don't want something unreliable on your network while you are repairing a crashed server.

Impossible to configure because he had NO idea what CentOS was and that you were suggesting was well above his scope of knowledge and experience........You were fired because you were evidently smarter than this person and therefore you were a clear and present danger to his job security.

sydbat
June 13th, 2010, 08:36 PM
Before you make these sorts of statements , learns a bit and . Before my medical retirement I was CIO , one of your "users with huge pay cheque", I have the following

Degree in Computer Engineering
MCSE
Cisco and HP Certified
ITIL Certified
IBM Certified

15 years experience running IT units , the last a very big IT house , plus my own IT Company.

CIO's and like get there because they know what they are doing.They should, but this is not always the case. I have a degree in IT management and have found that, in several large and medium companies, the people who manage IT departments and employ people to run them have significantly less experience and credentials than I do. My guess is they got where they are by not hiring qualified people so they would not be shown up.

sydbat
June 13th, 2010, 08:37 PM
Kind of ironic saying that you don't want something unreliable on your network while you are repairing a crashed server.

Impossible to configure because he had NO idea what CentOS was and that you were suggesting was well above his scope of knowledge and experience........You were fired because you were evidently smarter than this person and therefore you were a clear and present danger to his job security.Yes. My last post (#55 in this thread) is about this too.

NCLI
June 13th, 2010, 08:56 PM
http://cdn.bitelia.com/files/2010/06/Neelie_kroes.jpg

http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D9G8BMTO0.htm

http://ostatic.com/blog/europes-neelie-kroes-sticks-to-her-open-source-guns

this lady rocks ! what's her facebook page, am a fan. :guitar:

Here you go. (http://www.facebook.com/pages/Neelie-Kroes/15394709586)

Dr. C
June 13th, 2010, 09:11 PM
Before you make these sorts of statements , learns a bit and . Before my medical retirement I was CIO , one of your "users with huge pay cheque", I have the following

Degree in Computer Engineering
MCSE
Cisco and HP Certified
ITIL Certified
IBM Certified

15 years experience running IT units , the last a very big IT house , plus my own IT Company.

CIO's and like get there because they know what they are doing.

The reality in many cases is that CIO's and like get there because they knew what they are doing. A person that made in right IT decisions in the 1990's would likely get promoted and be in a position of power today. The trouble is what was the right decision in IT 12 years ago is not the right decision today. What is true for finance or human resources does not hold true for IT but large organizations typically do not make the management distinction.

One thing I have learned over the years is to pay very close attention to what 15 - 24 year olds are recommending and doing with technology. By the way this is the biggest age group in Ubuntu forums.

uRock
June 13th, 2010, 09:13 PM
They should, but this is not always the case. I have a degree in IT management and have found that, in several large and medium companies, the people who manage IT departments and employ people to run them have significantly less experience and credentials than I do. My guess is they got where they are by not hiring qualified people so they would not be shown up.

Or because the companies don't pay enough to get people with higher qualifications. From what I have seen, they expect the one person in charge to tell the lower skilled people what to do. I have also noticed that higher qualified people refuse to do lower level tasks because they are "above doing such things."

Just ask a plumber with 15 years experience to do a job clean off. He'll practically tell you to find a laborer because he gets paid too much for the task.

KiwiNZ
June 13th, 2010, 09:26 PM
The reality in many cases is that CIO's and like get there because they knew what they are doing. A person that made in right IT decisions in the 1990's would likely get promoted and be in a position of power today. The trouble is what was the right decision in IT 12 years ago is not the right decision today. What is true for finance or human resources does not hold true for IT but large organizations typically do not make the management distinction.

One thing I have learned over the years is to pay very close attention to what 15 - 24 year olds are recommending and doing with technology. By the way this is the biggest age group in Ubuntu forums.

Do you think ones ability to read and keep up with developments and changes or is lost when one attains the age of say 45?

Every day I would have at least one or two Account Managers from Vendors updating me. I would at least weekly have Tech staff from Vendors updating me. I would be invited and attend most tech conferences. At these I would meet most of my fellow CIO,s whom of course have lost the ability to read.

Ever heard of the saying " Don't teach your Grand parents to suck eggs"? if you haven't look it up.

rottentree
June 13th, 2010, 11:40 PM
Do you think ones ability to read and keep up with developments and changes or is lost when one attains the age of say 45?

Every day I would have at least one or two Account Managers from Vendors updating me. I would at least weekly have Tech staff from Vendors updating me. I would be invited and attend most tech conferences. At these I would meet most of my fellow CIO,s whom of course have lost the ability to read.

Ever heard of the saying " Don't teach your Grand parents to suck eggs"? if you haven't look it up.

You seem to take it a bit personally we weren't talking about you specifically ;)
I would say one's desire or will to keep up is lost so they stay at the familiar and block their mind from the new.

KiwiNZ
June 13th, 2010, 11:57 PM
You seem to take it a bit personally we weren't talking about you specifically ;)
I would say one's desire or will to keep up is lost so they stay at the familiar and block their mind from the new.

Rubbish

I am over 50 and I keep up with all that is new on a daily basis and so my past associates. I am not taking it personally what I hate is assumptions, generalizations and age discrimination.

lancest
June 14th, 2010, 12:15 AM
Easy as that huh? Have you ever worked for a corporation? Probably not.
No need to get personal.

murderslastcrow
June 14th, 2010, 12:31 AM
I'm glad we have people on both sides of the spectrum making reasonable arguments rather than doing things based entirely out of spite for a large corporation's dominance. There are real and obvious reasons for this.

madjr
June 14th, 2010, 04:33 AM
Rubbish

I am over 50 and I keep up with all that is new on a daily basis and so my past associates. I am not taking it personally what I hate is assumptions, generalizations and age discrimination.

this is good to know because all the bad apples, always make the few good ones look rotten.

KiwiNZ
June 14th, 2010, 05:16 AM
this is good to know because all the bad apples, always make the few good ones look rotten.

Again assumptions and generalizations , can cast a shadow over others only if bigoted people let it.

Dr. C
June 14th, 2010, 07:58 AM
Do you think ones ability to read and keep up with developments and changes or is lost when one attains the age of say 45?

No. One can keep up with technology at any age. But if one really wants to keep abreast one must be prepared to pay close attention to the 15 - 24 age group because they do not have huge investments in obsolete ways of doing things. One must also be prepared to learn from someone that is less than half one's age in IT.


Every day I would have at least one or two Account Managers from Vendors updating me. I would at least weekly have Tech staff from Vendors updating me. I would be invited and attend most tech conferences. At these I would meet most of my fellow CIO,s whom of course have lost the ability to read.

This is a very valuable source of information, but if one also does not pay attention to what that pimple faced teenager is doing in his mother's basement one can be in for a very expensive shock. Take for example the government of Australia spending millions of dollars to attempt to filter the Internet only to have some pimple faced teenager break the filter in a matter of minutes. Let us also not forget the Pirate Bay vs the Movie industry a classic situation where many in the fifties need to learn form people in their teens and early twenties.


Ever heard of the saying " Don't teach your Grand parents to suck eggs"? if you haven't look it up.

I have heard the saying and IT is one of the few areas in life where it does not apply. Why because the procedure for sucking an egg has not changed since my grandparents were born at the end of the 19th Century, but IT has sure changed since the days of Queen Victoria!
By the way I am also over the age of 50 and plan to stay well abreast of what is happening in IT, and yes one of the ways of doing this is by being prepared to learn form those that are half or one third my age.

KiwiNZ
June 14th, 2010, 08:18 AM
No. One can keep up with technology at any age. But if one really wants to keep abreast one must be prepared to pay close attention to the 15 - 24 age group because they do not have huge investments in obsolete ways of doing things. One must also be prepared to learn from someone that is less than half one's age in IT.



This is a very valuable source of information, but if one also does not pay attention to what that pimple faced teenager is doing in his mother's basement one can be in for a very expensive shock. Take for example the government of Australia spending millions of dollars to attempt to filter the Internet only to have some pimple faced teenager break the filter in a matter of minutes. Let us also not forget the Pirate Bay vs the Movie industry a classic situation where many in the fifties need to learn form people in their teens and early twenties.



I have heard the saying and IT is one of the few areas in life where it does not apply. Why because the procedure for sucking an egg has not changed since my grandparents were born at the end of the 19th Century, but IT has sure changed since the days of Queen Victoria!
By the way I am also over the age of 50 and plan to stay well abreast of what is happening in IT, and yes one of the ways of doing this is by being prepared to learn form those that are half or one third my age.

Are you seriously suggesting that a CIO needs to take the advice of a 15 year old when making the decisions regarding the administration of a network corporate network of say 12,000 Desktops , 1,800 Laptops , 800+printers 300+ servers , 2 mainframes and 4 Superdomes.?

rottentree
June 14th, 2010, 11:07 AM
Rubbish

I am over 50 and I keep up with all that is new on a daily basis and so my past associates.


I wasn't talking about you. I was just saying that those who get stuck in the past are there not because they couldn't keep up but because they don't want to any longer.



I am not taking it personally what I hate is assumptions, generalizations and age discrimination.

Well sure it wasn't totally correct to say that about CIOs generally as one person as sure as hell can't know every CIO on planet Earth but that's his limited experience and in order to fill the unknown gap he makes an assumption based on his experience so far.

I think most of the things we 'know' are limited so you can forgive someone when he doesn't start every sentence with "According to my limited experience..." and "According to the latest scientific standing..." etc.

Johnsie
June 14th, 2010, 11:35 AM
There is no money in open source, so it's not very attractive to developers who want to put food on the table by selling their software.

NCLI
June 14th, 2010, 12:17 PM
Rubbish

I am over 50 and I keep up with all that is new on a daily basis and so my past associates. I am not taking it personally what I hate is assumptions, generalizations and age discrimination.

Kiwi, you are the one assuming here. No one has said anything like "All old people are stupid," or "All CIO's know jack-**** about IT."

What they ARE saying is that they've had bad experiences with stupid CIO's, and from my point of view, you're the only one who is generalizing by saying: "The CIO's I know, and myself, are very apt when it comes to IT, and always updated on new developments, ergo, no CIO could possibly be old-fashioned and backwards.


Are you seriously suggesting that a CIO needs to take the advice of a 15 year old when making the decisions regarding the administration of a network corporate network of say 12,000 Desktops , 1,800 Laptops , 800+printers 300+ servers , 2 mainframes and 4 Superdomes.?
No, a CIO needs to listen to the advice of the other employees, evaluate it, and use it or throw it away.

The employee should not be punished for disagreeing with the CIO, nor should the CIO ignore the advice. Clearly, the employee feels that there is a problem since they want you to know of a solution.

Age shouldn't matter, we can all have good ideas, and we all have different ways to look at things. You may have many degrees and be more qualified in many areas than the other employees, but that does not mean that they don't have a point once in a while.

newbie2
June 14th, 2010, 02:47 PM
No, a CIO needs to listen to the advice of the other employees, evaluate it, and use it or throw it away.

The employee should not be punished for disagreeing with the CIO, nor should the CIO ignore the advice. Clearly, the employee feels that there is a problem since they want you to know of a solution.
And what about a ´CIO´ from a government who is willing and well informed with OPEN SOURCE software, but the employees(most off) are lacking knowledge about non-MS-software, but (some) willing to learn, but then are commanded from a politic(bribe?) standpoint to switch again to proprietary software ? :
Hans van Bossuyt, subdirector of the department's Automation Committee has resigned from his post last week. According to Tweakers, Bossuyt says there is no political will to drive the modernisation of the department.
http://www.osor.eu/news/be-lack-of-training-impedes-open-source-pilot-at-justice-ministry
:twisted:

NCLI
June 14th, 2010, 02:48 PM
And what about a ´CIO´ from a government who is willing and well informed with OPEN SOURCE software, but the employees(most off) are lacking knowledge about non-MS-software, but (some) willing to learn, but then are commanded from a politic(bribe?) standpoint to switch again to proprietary software ? :
http://www.osor.eu/news/be-lack-of-training-impedes-open-source-pilot-at-justice-ministry
:twisted:

I really think that is beyond the scope of this discussion :p

formaldehyde_spoon
June 14th, 2010, 02:55 PM
From my own experience ( retired CIO ) the cost /benefit analysis never came out on the right side of the ledger for the initial implementation or the ongoing support with for Open source works out higher in larger organisations than Proprietary.

Then of course you have the nightmare of interoperability with other Organizations and partners whom have not changed.

The idea that the ''pain will go away'' is an utopian dream that never materializes .

Speaking as someone who has made the decision to move a large company from proprietary to open source, I assume?
Are you seriously suggesting that a CIO needs to take the advice of a 15 year old when making the decisions regarding the administration of a network corporate network of say 12,000 Desktops , 1,800 Laptops , 800+printers 300+ servers , 2 mainframes and 4 Superdomes.?

Just as long as you aren't not listening to him because of his age. That would be assumptive at best, discriminatory at worst.

I seem to be becoming rather familiar with your qualifications KiwiNZ.

I don't see any problem with the quote in the OP.
It seems perfectly rational and objective to me, and she doesn't rule out propriety software when there is justification for it.
Her focus is on lock-in and money, there's no detectable emotion or ideology seeping through.

sydbat
June 14th, 2010, 04:00 PM
And what about a ´CIO´ from a government who is willing and well informed with OPEN SOURCE software, but the employees(most off) are lacking knowledge about non-MS-software, but (some) willing to learn, but then are commanded from a politic(bribe?) standpoint to switch again to proprietary software ? :
http://www.osor.eu/news/be-lack-of-training-impedes-open-source-pilot-at-justice-ministry
:twisted:


I really think that is beyond the scope of this discussion :pActually, I think it is bang on topic. Remember, the OP is about vendor lock-in and lack of competitive bids in government.

However, I think that the senior government officials (those in charge of IT) have absolutely no clue there are alternatives to Microsoft products, and therein lies the problem Ms. Kroes is talking about. I would imagine it is the underlings that have the knowledge concerning alternatives.

Dr. C
June 14th, 2010, 04:12 PM
Actually, I think it is bang on topic. Remember, the OP is about vendor lock-in and lack of competitive bids in government.

However, I think that the senior government officials (those in charge of IT) have absolutely no clue there are alternatives to Microsoft products, and therein lies the problem Ms. Kroes is talking about. I would imagine it is the underlings that have the knowledge concerning alternatives.

In many cases this is very true of senior management. As for the underlings, especially the younger underlings do they feel comfortable making recommendations or do they fear for their jobs?

sydbat
June 14th, 2010, 04:27 PM
In many cases this is very true of senior management. As for the underlings, especially the younger underlings do they feel comfortable making recommendations or do they fear for their jobs?I suppose it depends on how the morale is. If management are the "tyrant" type, then there would be little to no comfort expressing differing opinions and big fear of losing your job by offering up those opinions. But I'm sure none of us has ever worked in a place like that...

uRock
June 14th, 2010, 05:15 PM
Actually, I think it is bang on topic. Remember, the OP is about vendor lock-in and lack of competitive bids in government.

However, I think that the senior government officials (those in charge of IT) have absolutely no clue there are alternatives to Microsoft products, and therein lies the problem Ms. Kroes is talking about. I would imagine it is the underlings that have the knowledge concerning alternatives.
I am glad the US government does use alternatives to Windows for military needs. I would love to see the administrative levels of the mil drop Windows. It would be very cost effective, being the IT guys are soldiers and there is no need to pay them overtime to get them trained up. For the price of the licensing of the Windows upgrades from XP. doubt they've upgraded yet, they could hire a civilian contractor to build Ubuntu or any other Linux to do the job the way they want it, then distribute it with their own manuals.

NCLI
June 14th, 2010, 05:35 PM
Actually, I think it is bang on topic. Remember, the OP is about vendor lock-in and lack of competitive bids in government.
You're correct, I misunderstood the post.

However, I think that the senior government officials (those in charge of IT) have absolutely no clue there are alternatives to Microsoft products, and therein lies the problem Ms. Kroes is talking about. I would imagine it is the underlings that have the knowledge concerning alternatives.
Mrs. Kroes disagrees ;)

McRat
June 14th, 2010, 05:45 PM
In general, when the government takes over a sector that previously controlled by a free market, it has a really high chance of failure due to "politics" trumping technical issues.

And while the free market adjusts itself, when they pass laws they often are written in stone.

The best way to deal with such issues is usually an Organization represented by the industry with a few board members representing the consumers. No elected officials.

NCLI
June 14th, 2010, 05:53 PM
In general, when the free market takes over a sector that previously controlled by a government, it has a really high chance of failure due to "profit" trumping technical issues.

And while the government adjusts itself according to public demand, when the higher-ups in private firms make decisions they are often written in stone.

The best way to deal with such issues is usually a commisions with representatives of the government, with a few board members representing the scientific community. No lobbying organisations or private firms.

There, better.

McRat
June 14th, 2010, 06:13 PM
There, better.

If you don't think "money/profit" comes into play with politicians, you aren't buying the right politicans, change brands.

"What will the Unions Think?"

"How will this affect my fundraising?"

"Geritol is against this, and they want to build a factory in our capital city."

But I was talking more about the negotiations that are often necessary to get a law passed. These trade-offs seldom have anything to do with what's best for the consumer or the industry.

NCLI
June 14th, 2010, 06:17 PM
If you don't think "money/profit" comes into play with politicians, you aren't buying the right politicans, change brands.

"What will the Unions Think?"

"How will this affect my fundraising?"

"Geritol is against this, and they want to build a factory in our capital city."

But I was talking more about the negotiations that are often necessary to get a law passed. These trade-offs seldom have anything to do with what's best for the consumer or the industry.

That's in the US and other countries with near-3rd-world "democracies", not my part of the world, thank god.

McRat
June 14th, 2010, 06:31 PM
That's in the US and other countries with near-3rd-world "democracies", not my part of the world, thank god.

Let me guess. You still believe that politicians enter that field because they want to help others.

Hang onto that dream!! :lolflag:

madjr
June 14th, 2010, 07:38 PM
That's in the US and other countries with near-3rd-world "democracies", not my part of the world, thank god.

this should be good for you
http://www.storyofstuff.com/

KiwiNZ
June 14th, 2010, 07:51 PM
and go on TV watch TV see her clip feel bad go out and feel buy more stuff namely her book which is why the segment on the show was done.

MCVenom
June 14th, 2010, 07:57 PM
That's in the US and other countries with near-3rd-world "democracies", not my part of the world, thank god.
Yeah we get it, you Danish people are the happiest country in the world. :roll:

Personally, if you don't think even your politicians have ulterior motives at time, I think that's a bit naive... And personally, I think your economic system works pretty well. But here in the US the mere mention of taxes means you ain't making it back into office; sad considering taxes are necessary to sustain society.

Now that that's outta the way, back on topic? :P

uRock
June 14th, 2010, 08:01 PM
That's in the US and other countries with near-3rd-world "democracies", not my part of the world, thank god.
I'd love to see your definition of what a third world country is and why you think your country is better.

McRat
June 14th, 2010, 08:08 PM
I'd love to see your definition of what a third world country is and why you think your country is better.

I was just thinking how new the USA is to this whole democracy thingy.

I just drove past the USA Royal Palace, but they weren't doing tours that day. :(

I always wanted to meet the King and Queen.

KiwiNZ
June 14th, 2010, 08:12 PM
I was just thinking how new the USA is to this whole democracy thingy.

I just drove past the USA Royal Palace, but they weren't doing tours that day. :(

I always wanted to meet the King and Queen.

3 places in the USA I want to see , The White House , The Capital Building , The Smithsonian.

uRock
June 14th, 2010, 08:27 PM
3 places in the USA I want to see , The White House , The Capital Building , The Smithsonian.
I have been to the Capitol Building and the Smithsonian, but that was more than 20 years ago. I'd hope there are a few new things in the museum by now. The printing press in the treasury was my favorite. Nice crisp $10,000 bill was nice to see.

KiwiNZ
June 14th, 2010, 08:44 PM
I have been to the Capitol Building and the Smithsonian, but that was more than 20 years ago. I'd hope there are a few new things in the museum by now. The printing press in the treasury was my favorite. Nice crisp $10,000 bill was nice to see.

I have only made business trips for meetings to the USA , never to sight see. Been to Palo Alto , Redmond , got to go back and play some time.

NCLI
June 14th, 2010, 08:59 PM
Let me guess. You still believe that politicians enter that field because they want to help others.

Hang onto that dream!! :lolflag:
Lol, definitely not all of them. There are a few though, more in Scandinavia than in the US, that's for sure. I know several Danish politicians, like some of them, dislike others, but the ones I've met all burn for their ideals.

this should be good for you
http://www.storyofstuff.com/
Watched it, and was already aware of the issue. This movie (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912)(Legal link) is also interesting if you're into stuff like this.Yeah we get it, you Danish people are the happiest country in the world.

Yeah we get it, you Danish people are the happiest country in the world. :roll:

Personally, if you don't think even your politicians have ulterior motives at time, I think that's a bit naive... And personally, I think your economic system works pretty well. But here in the US the mere mention of taxes means you ain't making it back into office; sad considering taxes are necessary to sustain society.

Now that that's outta the way, back on topic? :P
I do, I do, but the fact is that our politicians are way more regulated and kept under closer scrutiny than the politicians in the US, and lobbying is way harder, and much less widespread, because it's regulated.
Oh and we have more than two political parties, we actually have nine currently in parliament.

Lastly, I don't care much for this "happiest people in the world" bull, and I really don't think Denmark is such an awesome country nowadays, so please don't think I'm some arrogant nationalist, I'm simply in awe at how terrible the "democratic" system is in the US.

I'd love to see your definition of what a third world country is and why you think your country is better.
I was trying to convey my opinion of the state of democracy in the United States, and likened it to the situation in many third world countries. I didn't say my own country is better than the US, or that 3rd world countries suck, just that our democracy is more... democratic.

And now:

Now that that's outta the way, back on topic? :P

KiwiNZ
June 14th, 2010, 09:23 PM
can we keep the general political talk away please. "Discussions on religion and politics are not allowed"

jflaker
June 15th, 2010, 01:12 AM
Rubbish

I am over 50 and I keep up with all that is new on a daily basis and so my past associates. I am not taking it personally what I hate is assumptions, generalizations and age discrimination.

Just going from what I have seen. I have seen new CIO's walk in the door at a few companies and find that they are better at creating budgets and delegating projects than at knowing what their people actually do.

I would say that it is NOT because of not keeping up or not wanting to keep up.......it is because their job doesn't allow them to get their hands dirty anymore and as the old saying goes....if you don't use it, you lose it.

jflaker
June 15th, 2010, 01:16 AM
Are you seriously suggesting that a CIO needs to take the advice of a 15 year old when making the decisions regarding the administration of a network corporate network of say 12,000 Desktops , 1,800 Laptops , 800+printers 300+ servers , 2 mainframes and 4 Superdomes.?

No...but when the 15 year old is gathering and renewing people's computer that were thrown away because they were not up to spec in the current computer market.......CIO's can learn that their desktops can be recycled into useful systems and not be thrown out after their 2 year service contract is up.

jflaker
June 15th, 2010, 01:40 AM
In many cases this is very true of senior management. As for the underlings, especially the younger underlings do they feel comfortable making recommendations or do they fear for their jobs?

HAHAHA...both
If they make a suggestions and they go for it and it falls flat....the job is at stake or at the very least, their word will be worth less in the future.

If they make a suggestions, it is likely to be brushed off by more tenured co-workers looking for toes to trample on the way up the corporate ladder....who better to trample over than the younger, less experienced co-worker.

KiwiNZ
June 15th, 2010, 02:01 AM
HAHAHA...both
If they make a suggestions and they go for it and it falls flat....the job is at stake or at the very least, their word will be worth less in the future.

If they make a suggestions, it is likely to be brushed off by more tenured co-workers looking for toes to trample on the way up the corporate ladder....who better to trample over than the younger, less experienced co-worker.

I met every team on a monthly basis, and everyone was free to put forward ideas , suggestions, complaints and recommendations. Without fear of being putdown or repercussion.

I also made time time sit on each team for a time to experience their job , be it the Helpdesk , the Network Engineers, Application Support, Field Support, etc etc.

formaldehyde_spoon
June 15th, 2010, 04:40 AM
I met every team on a monthly basis, and everyone was free to put forward ideas , suggestions, complaints and recommendations. Without fear of being putdown or repercussion.

I also made time time sit on each team for a time to experience their job , be it the Helpdesk , the Network Engineers, Application Support, Field Support, etc etc.

I can't speak for jflaker of course, so I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure you weren't the topic of that post (or any other post in this thread that wasn't a direct reply to your posts).

JakeW
June 15th, 2010, 04:50 AM
Until the bureaucrats put forth the revalation that they are the real waste of money, I shall remain unimpressed.

Especially in the US :/

newbie2
July 15th, 2010, 11:20 AM
this lady rocks !
[GUADEC2010] Neelie Kroes on open source and the importance of communities :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ok100U4Fo3Y&feature=player_embedded
;)

BuffaloX
July 16th, 2010, 11:37 PM
Clearly her non neutrality on the issue should mean that the Microsoft fines should be set aside and all monies refunded by the EU.

How can someone who is clearly and publicly one sided on an issue stand in judgement? it shows that it may well be a case of those in glass houses should not throw stones.

Also good Government purchasing means they should be free to get the "best deal" possible and not be ham stringed by some looney philosophized poliicy .

Vendor lock in prevents you from getting the best deal later on. Which is exactly what is the main point of the recommendation.
And just today we had such an example in the news:
http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2010/07/15/nhs_microsoft/

First fix is free, but when you are hooked you pay full price.
Microsoft has an above 90% profit margin on such deals, do you really mean to argue that the same cannot be accomplished cheaper?

Public offices should very much be encouraged to use FLOSS, even if it cost 10 times as much to develop as buying proprietary solutions, it will be cheaper if 20 offices can use it, if this effect went global, software cost could potentially be just a fraction of what it is now in just a few years time.
Everybody would benefit except the stockholders of software companies,