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Kernel Sanders
March 26th, 2006, 12:25 AM
What does everyone think on this issue?

Does Dapper finally "bridge the gap" so to speak, between Windows and Linux?

Would the average home user now feel comfortable using Ubuntu as their primary OS?

Or do you feel that Ubuntu/Linux in general still has some way to go before the average home user could use it without too many problems.

Thanks!

John \\:D/

nickle
March 26th, 2006, 12:31 AM
I am not sure what you mean...

Do you mean Dapper as it is now in its current state of development or the Ultimate Dapper release which doesn't exist yet....????:rolleyes:

Kernel Sanders
March 26th, 2006, 12:35 AM
I am not sure what you mean...

Do you mean Dapper as it is now in its current state of development or the Ultimate Dapper release which doesn't exist yet....????:rolleyes:

Well...... i'm sure that many people would say that dapper flight 5 is a damn fine OS in its current state, but for the purpose of this, its probably be better to take Dapper as it will be.....

And as dapper flight 5 is 90% done, its not an impossible task really is it?

Its not like i'm asking you to imagine what alpha/beta software will be when its done, as IMHO, Dapper Flight 5 is more of a Release Candidate in terms of quality.

Thanks!

John

PatrickMay16
March 26th, 2006, 12:38 AM
The average home user is the kind of person who goes up to PC world whenever they want any kind of software. They buy their computer ready built and ready to go from Dell or PC world.
The average home user doesn't care about what they use, only that it works.

You'll need to install Dapper yourself since 99% of all OEM machines at the moment come with some version of Windows XP and nothing else. The average user could probably not do this, and if they tried would be discouraged instantly.
These users have only ever known windows, and since they use the computer to get their work done and nothing else, they will keep things the way they know them.

Plus, if they went to Dapper, they wouldn't be able to use the software they sell in boxes at PC world any more. (Wine is getting better, yes, but for average users it is not easy to use and not much of the boxed commercial stuff I tried running would work well, if at all.)

So, my answer is "no". I think it will take a long, long time before any kind of Linux will be usable for average users. For it to become usable for average users, it must be popular and shipped on OEM machines, and boxed software available in big name PC stores,

dabear
March 26th, 2006, 12:55 AM
No. These are the things I personally miss in Dapper (and gnu/linux):

*A decent writing tool that supports spell checking for every language, and doesn't consume 120% of your memory. Office 2003 through wine is better than ooo here.
Abiword is good, but it does't support spell checking very well.

*Games. Although not linux' fault, windows games should be easily installable without having to install additional software

*Graphics drivers. 3d drivers should be installed out-of-the-box and a restart of the xserver shouldn't be necessary for them to take effect.

*Multimedia. Who cares about the US, we (as in a great deal of the European countries) need all common codecs installed by default.


Other random thoughts:

Develop ONE standard way of organizing menus. As far as I know, GNOME has one, and KDE has another one. Oh and btw, what about rejunify GNOME and KDE. Honestly we (as in the developer and programmers) don't need two different tool kits for doing the same. For one GNOME program to function in a KDE environment and vise versa, you currently need to install a bunch of libraries . This is NOT the case on windows(win32) and mac (cocoa) (but you can also here choose between qt,gtk,wx etc. if you really really want)

darkmaze
March 26th, 2006, 12:59 AM
I think linux in general is ready for the human race. one question though when is windows getting out of pre-alpha. & is brainwashing counted as a crime ?

pommattski
March 26th, 2006, 01:15 AM
I actually think that the "average home user" is capable of using, and even installing k/ubuntu (breezy or dapper), but they have no inclination/motivation/perceived reason to do so (or learn to do so) whatsoever.
As Patrick', above, put it, "The average home user doesn't care about what they use, only that it works."
... and if the "average home user" had the choice when buying a new PC, as to whether it had their familiar Windows, or a totally unfamiliar (to them) operating system, they would choose Windows every time.
Not meaning to sound derogatory, but quite honestly, (I'm guessing) more than 50% of "average home users" do not even know what an operating system is - certainly the older age groups, anyway.
(A little off-topic, I know.)

Turgon
March 26th, 2006, 01:27 AM
I think Dapper solves a many of the issues from previous verions with almost everything actualy working out of the box. Remember that we always had to cange to totem-xine? Now we got gstreamer 0.10 which is good enough, meaning one less "complicated" thing to do.

Speed has improved dramaticly. Dapper boots up at about half the time of breezy and are much quicker in gnome. Firefox has also gotten faster, but it is still not as fast as in windows (and thats a shame).

Overall polish quality will be better (its better than breezy even now).

Eyecandy is better. New icons (beautiful) and a new color tune (orange) in metacity.

Dapper tends to "just work", and I think ubuntu now is readdy for the great masses (if the great masses wants change).

rfruth
March 26th, 2006, 01:37 AM
If Dapper is as good or better than Breezy its ready - unfortunately Microsoft marketing has taken over for now

Virogenesis
March 26th, 2006, 01:42 AM
1. no mp3 support ( not ubuntu's fault but user doesn't see this)
2. no 3d drivers installed by default (closed source won't ever be installed by default)
3. hardly any shops with linux experience
4. not installed by default (avg user isn't going to wipe windows for ubuntu)
5. user is scared
6. lack of games (not a linux problem but a problem with idiots chosing directx over opengl)
7. lack of pr
8. crap webcam support
9. a few users are on 56k still and dial up is a bugger to set up with linux.
10. prolly another one exists just can't think right now...

bionnaki
March 26th, 2006, 02:02 AM
I think linux in general is almost close for the common desktop, but most people do not even know what linux is. until this knowledge is out there and distros are further refined (and easy to follow guides are common), linux will not be on the common desktop.

neoflight
March 26th, 2006, 03:23 AM
i am using it.....i think it is ready somewhat.....but i am still in the process of learning the story......so ......

i say "yes"...

htinn
March 26th, 2006, 03:56 AM
As long as they don't have to install it with some crazy dual-booting notions, Breezy is already more than enough for the average computer user. Wind'ohs! just has a lot people bamboozled right now.

mstlyevil
March 26th, 2006, 04:07 AM
I am using it and I am a average home user. I will say that it is ready for the average home user that wants to learn more about their computer and does not mind the risk that an update or new package may break the operating system.

ubuntu_demon
March 26th, 2006, 12:46 PM
I voted no.

IMHO :

*windows XP isn't ready for the average home user.(too insecure)
*Mac OS X is ready for the average home user (but there are a bit too little games available)
*Ubuntu Dapper is almost ready for the average home user. The biggest reasons why it's not ready :

-There are still some minor bugs (but probably all or most will be solved with the final release)
-commercial software should be integrated into gnome-app-install somehow. People should be able to go to one place and to download/buy/install whatever software they want (from debs that are packaged for Ubuntu).
-hardware support is good but can be better. The problem is that most hardware companies don't care. (This is also the reason why there is too little graphical bling bling) There should be stickers on the boxes of hardware in stores to indicate if it works properly in ubuntu.
-there's too little commercial software available for Ubuntu that is available for windows/mac. For example games , photoshop, flash creator (I don't know the exact name),technical software like autocad.
-better multimedia support. Especially the easy creating of multimedia content like videos. Mac OS X has all kinds of programs to easy edit video's and stuff.
-there should be more computers with Ubuntu preinstalled available
-people should grow up and realise they have choice. They don't have to run windows. Some people need windows for some software program but there are a lot of people who just do the basic stuff like a browser,text editor and email they should at least try a live cd.(why because ubuntu is more secure and stable than windows).

so in summary :
Ubuntu developers have done a lot to make Dapper easy for the average home user but now the big companies(like dell ,HP and asus) and the games industy have to follow and cooperate.

awakatanka
March 26th, 2006, 12:58 PM
As long as a user can't just plug in new hardware install the driver and start using the new hardware, like they do in windows it isn't ready.Sure windows has problems sometime to with it but still it does it far better then linux.

If that is solved the rest of the smaller things will follow.

Stew2
March 26th, 2006, 02:09 PM
As long as a user can't just plug in new hardware install the driver and start using the new hardware, like they do in windows it isn't ready.Sure windows has problems sometime to with it but still it does it far better then linux.

If that is solved the rest of the smaller things will follow.

I 100% agree with this! This is the very reason I keep jumping back and forth. :)

Edit: Even it 90% of your hardware works "out of the box" with Ubuntu/Linux, that 10% that doesn't want to play nice can drive you crazy! :)

htinn
March 26th, 2006, 02:49 PM
As long as a user can't just plug in new hardware install the driver and start using the new hardware, like they do in windows...

You're joking, right? How long have you used Wind'ohs?

Most hardware requires a driver disc to work with Wind'ohs, and only the latest hardware will actually function properly with the latest OS. In my experience (going back to Wind'ohs! 3.0) every major revision of the OS broke support for about half the hardware that used it. That is not what the average user wants or needs.

jc87
March 26th, 2006, 03:07 PM
I have a friend , we does n´t know much about computers .

A couple of months back he got internet at his computer , and got spyware right after that , since i´m a good friend i formatted his pc , installed Xp with SP2 on it , plus Firefox + Gaim + Open Office , told him to use that software , which he did , and he did n´t had any problems so far .

I´ve been talking with him about half a year now about how Gnu/Linux is great , and i brainwashed him easily:-D , last week i showed him XGL using Korooa live-cd at his pc ( P4 2,8 , 512 ram , Geforce Mx 400) runned ok and he loved it.

Yesterday i told him if he would like i installed Ubuntu at his pc this summer , and he sad he i going to think about it.

I´m almost 100% sure that he will answer yes (after all was i who "fixed" his computer in the past , so i´m a trustworthy person ) and 100% sure that if he answers yes and he will love it , why?

A) He does n´t know how to install/configure the OS alone ( Windows , Ubuntu , etc..) since i will do all the work of initial configuring that won´t be a problem (after some small configs will rock).

B) We will certainly like not having to worry about virus.

C) He his not a big gamer , so a couple of small games for him a his little sister will do just fine (Cedega if necessary will work too).

D) He practically cant install software for himself , so the add/remove programs combined with the right sources.list will rock for him.

E) He will have me to do tech support.

F) Gnome 2.14 + XGL will make him and his sister love the eyecandy stuff.

G) I´m pretty sure i can make all his hardware work at 100% without much fuss.

And since Dapper final will be a super stable release , which better time to introducing him to the Gnu/Linux world?

aysiu
March 26th, 2006, 04:42 PM
Is Chinese ready for the average native English speaker?

Kernel Sanders
March 26th, 2006, 04:59 PM
Is Chinese ready for the average native English speaker?

Very very bad analogy......

aysiu
March 26th, 2006, 05:03 PM
Very very bad analogy...... Why?

English comes preinstalled, as does Windows
People are used to using English, as they are used to using Windows
English seems to have better third-party "compatibility" to native English speakers.
Chinese requires a totally different way of thinking, as does Linux.

Read more here (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=120489).

I've substantiated my point. All you've done is just say "it's bad."

Kernel Sanders
March 26th, 2006, 05:11 PM
Why?

English comes preinstalled, as does Windows
People are used to using English, as they are used to using Windows
English seems to have better third-party "compatibility" to native English speakers.
Chinese requires a totally different way of thinking, as does Linux.

Read more here (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=120489).

I've substantiated my point. All you've done is just say "it's bad."

After being challenged....... ;)

Its bad because it doesnt add anything to the discussion IMHO, and the Chinese/English language's are not developing at a fast rate, unless you seriously consider text speak/slang "development"

John

aysiu
March 26th, 2006, 05:13 PM
After being challenged....... ;)

Its bad because it doesnt add anything to the discussion IMHO, and the Chinese/English language's are not developing at a fast rate, unless you seriously consider text speak/slang "development"

John You're simply stating where the analogy breaks down--every analogy, no matter how "good" breaks down somewhere. Such is the nature of analogies.

The point is that Linux is like another language, and most people don't want to be bothered to learn another language. I hope that very much we can agree on, because I know a lot of "average home users," and I can guarantee you that no matter how "good" or "user-friendly" Dapper is, almost none of them will want to install a new operating system on her computer.

helpme
March 26th, 2006, 05:21 PM
The point is that Linux is like another language, and most people don't want to be bothered to learn another language.

I don't think that's really true. As far as using it goes, it may be an other dialect (to stay with your analogy), but certainly not an other language.
Clicking on the icon that starts your browser is pretty much the same in Windows and any linuxdesktop.



I hope that very much we can agree on, because I know a lot of "average home users," and I can guarantee you that no matter how "good" or "user-friendly" Dapper is, almost none of them will want to install a new operating system on her computer.
I think that's a totally different point. The people you talk about wouldn't install windows either. Normal users simply don't install operating systems.

aysiu
March 26th, 2006, 05:24 PM
I don't think that's really true. As far as using it goes, it may be an other dialect (to stay with your analogy), but certainly not an other language.
Clicking on the icon that starts your browser is pretty much the same in Windows and any linuxdesktop. On the surface, that's the case, but when it comes to things like installing software and changing a few things, it may be point-and-click but not in the same way. You're right, though--Chinese may be a bit too far off. It's probably more like the difference between English and German than between American English and British English or between English and Chinese.



I think that's a totally different point. The people you talk about wouldn't install windows either. Normal users simply don't install operating systems. Good point, and I fully agree.

I can assure you that the "average home users" I know would rather have me install Windows for them than any Linux distribution, though.

htinn
March 26th, 2006, 05:36 PM
There's a big difference between bigotry caused by laziness and *true* unreadiness. Dapper IS ready. Unfortunately, there is resistance because it is profitable for certain people to perpetrate it.

helpme
March 26th, 2006, 05:53 PM
I can assure you that the "average home users" I know would rather have me install Windows for them than any Linux distribution, though.
I think this very much depends on what the user wants to do with his computer (btw., I don't think there is something like the average user) and of course on the way you "sell" it to them.

Personally I've had quite good experiences with being upfront with them, telling them what might be the advantages of using linux and what problems they might encounter and offering them the option to install it for them if they want to give it a try.

But to come back to the original topic:
I'm sure dapper will be ready for many average users. I think it's ideal for the many people who mainly use their computers for doing email, surfing the web and write some stuff in a word processor.
There are of course other users, where dapper wouldn't be ideal. Hardcore gamers come to mind, for example.

DigitalDuality
March 26th, 2006, 07:02 PM
all i know is i did an update first thing yesterday morning.. and it killed X. Back to Breezy i went.. not spending time screwing with crap like that b/c of an update.

BarfBag
March 26th, 2006, 07:12 PM
It's been ready.

If a PC company (Dell, HP, Sony, etc.) preloaded their machines with it, multimedia codecs would be a MUST, though.

K.Mandla
March 26th, 2006, 09:42 PM
I think Dapper will be ready for anybody in June. As it stands now it still has some rough edges.

But then again, I'm not so sure I want just anybody using Ubuntu. I think there are some people who have neither the desire nor the ability to move into something different. And that's OK.

I think people who've got the personal urge (or conviction or desire or belief) to move away from MS will enjoy it immensely. The remainder should stay where they are.

Carrots171
March 27th, 2006, 01:18 PM
No, Linux isn't just ready for "basic web browsing and word-processing", it is ready for all office tasks, e-mail, instant messaging, graphics, video, and audio editing, multimedia, and games.

Ubuntu Linux is ready for the average home user IF it is pre-installed on computers. Most people won't bother to install Linux just as they won't bother to install Windows from scratch if they had to. If it is pre-installed, then you don't have to bother with stuff like drivers/partitions. If it is pre-installed, then it MUST have multimedia codecs.

I don't know about internet connection though. There should be a graphical tool to set up ADSL, ISDN, and Cable cconnections. (Like the internet setup tool in the Mandriva Control Center/SuSE YaST) If Dapper has that, then it's definitely ready for desktop.

The only type of people I wouldn't reccomend Dapper to are heavy gamers.

Stormy Eyes
March 27th, 2006, 02:56 PM
*Games. Although not linux' fault, windows games should be easily installable without having to install additional software

So, you want Cedega to be installed by default? Not going to happen; it's not free software.


*Graphics drivers. 3d drivers should be installed out-of-the-box and a restart of the xserver shouldn't be necessary for them to take effect.

Dude, you're talking about proprietary drivers. Do you honestly expect Ubuntu to pay ATi and nVidia for licenses?


*Multimedia. Who cares about the US, we (as in a great deal of the European countries) need all common codecs installed by default.

So, you expect Canonical to risk unnecessary legal trouble until we Americans finally figure out that our political parties are shafting us and throw the bastards out? Is it really that hard to install multimedia codecs?


Develop ONE standard way of organizing menus. As far as I know, GNOME has one, and KDE has another one.

I thought that freedesktop.org was working on this.


Oh and btw, what about rejunify GNOME and KDE. Honestly we (as in the developer and programmers) don't need two different tool kits for doing the same.

What do you mean by reunify? GNOME and KDE have always been two separate projects. Blame Richard Stallman; KDE's Qt toolkit used to be proprietary (though free-as-in-beer for non-commercial use), but that wasn't good enough for the FSF.

If you want to "unify" KDE and GNOME, one of the projects will have to be rewritten from the ground up. Would you like some sharks with friggin' lasers in their heads too?


For one GNOME program to function in a KDE environment and vise versa, you currently need to install a bunch of libraries . This is NOT the case on windows(win32) and mac (cocoa) (but you can also here choose between qt,gtk,wx etc. if you really really want)

Dude, complaining about the fact that X11 allows the use of multiple toolkits (or raw Xlib *shudder*) is like bitching about how roses have thorns. Learn to take the good with the bad.

Zodiac
March 27th, 2006, 09:57 PM
No it isn’t. Reason? Games and drivers.

Together they are the Achilles heel of any Linux distribution. I know there are a myriad of reasons why Linux has spotty support for both, but frankly, the end user isn’t going to care.

When you can plug in your wireless card, download a video game demo and play it right away, then Linux will be considered “ready”.

aysiu
March 27th, 2006, 10:08 PM
No it isn’t. Reason? Games and drivers.

Together they are the Achilles heel of any Linux distribution. I know there are a myriad of reasons why Linux has spotty support for both, but frankly, the end user isn’t going to care.

When you can plug in your wireless card, download a video game demo and play it right away, then Linux will be considered “ready”. Do you judge Mac OS X by this same standard of "readiness"?

Jason_25
March 27th, 2006, 10:25 PM
When you can plug in your wireless card, download a video game demo and play it right away, then Linux will be considered “ready”.

I think your trolling. How come it has to be perfect? By that standard windows isn't "ready".

For usb networking in windows, you would search for the drivers for the wireless card on the internet, download a driver in a package that you have no way of knowing what it will do to your system, copy it to a usb key, install it, deal with random errors, configure the card, reboot, reboot, configure some more. Now your finally set up with a halfway performing internet connection that uses over half your cpu time on a large file transfer and you get the opportunity for two or three more meaningless tray icons and processes which will surely serve to slow your games down further. With ubuntu, if the card is supported, you really do just plug it in and go.

Don't even get me started on the games. I have had to do so much registry tweaking and removing and installing of different video drivers that blue screened but caused a huge performance increase in game 'xxx' on windows that it's insane. With ubuntu, it's a few clicks in synaptic or worst case, having to extract the file somewhere to run it. Really tough stuff :roll:

Stormy Eyes
March 27th, 2006, 10:37 PM
When you can plug in your wireless card, download a video game demo and play it right away, then Linux will be considered “ready”.

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/inline4/b03.jpg

John.Michael.Kane
March 27th, 2006, 11:24 PM
@The OP One can also ask is "The Average Home User" ready for dapper or any OS for that matter. I mean it works both ways. almost every os has it's short commings. even in windows you have to load some drivers some software. no OS comes with everything for everyone.


Just my thoughts..

SkimWear
March 27th, 2006, 11:45 PM
I actually think that the "average home user" is capable of using, and even installing k/ubuntu (breezy or dapper), but they have no inclination/motivation/perceived reason to do so (or learn to do so) whatsoever.
As Patrick', above, put it, "The average home user doesn't care about what they use, only that it works."
... and if the "average home user" had the choice when buying a new PC, as to whether it had their familiar Windows, or a totally unfamiliar (to them) operating system, they would choose Windows every time.
Not meaning to sound derogatory, but quite honestly, (I'm guessing) more than 50% of "average home users" do not even know what an operating system is - certainly the older age groups, anyway.
(A little off-topic, I know.)

not too mention they dont know of any other OS's out there. And I do agree, I've only experienced with Ubuntu Breezy for the time being but I think thats even something simple for the average home user to handle.

edit: I mean if there is ever any concerns or questions there is www.google.com open 24/7 to answer ALL your questions and then if you REALLY need to talk to a person about it there are the forums. What's there to lose?

Zodiac
March 28th, 2006, 04:40 PM
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/inline4/b03.jpg
ha ha! I wasn't the one that asked!

I don't know why threads like this keep appearing when people already know the range of responses that will follow. I mean, I'm sorry I didn’t frame my post with the scent of roses, but I always offer the same blunt response to the same seemingly simple question...

I use Ubuntu and like it, but...

“The Average Home User” will not tolerate the issues I mentioned, nor will they be able to troubleshoot them, and asking them to buy hardware to accommodate the OS is asinine. Say what you will, but IMHO, you cannot consider Linux ready for “The Average Home User”, which I assume to be computer illiterate, until those types of issues are solved.

Also, those are not the only issues... media support across the board, Ipod support, peripherals, the list goes on and on.

Yes, Linux is fine for email, internet, image editing (sort of), and other basic functions right out of the box, but (again IMHO) that is not all encompassing behavior for "The Average Home User".

P.S. - Even I find myself frustrated sometimes... and most of the frustration isn't Linux's fault per say, but the problems exist all the same.

P.S.S. - I understand the importance of being proactive, thus I am trying to get involved in the community and help out with Bugs as much as possible to address some of the problems I think Linux has, so there ;) .

P.S.S.S. - I do not consider myself a troll, just brutally honest. If I might paraphrase the words of Detective Summerset from Se7en, "we must divorce ourselves from emotion".

Stormy Eyes
March 28th, 2006, 05:02 PM
Say what you will, but IMHO, you cannot consider Linux ready for “The Average Home User”, which I assume to be computer illiterate, until those types of issues are solved.

As far as I'm concerned, the "Average Home User" is welcome to continue to suffer with Windows.

Zodiac
March 28th, 2006, 05:21 PM
*shrugs*

Fair enough.

I don't know why people harp on this as an issue in the first place... it seems that every release issues forth another round of "Is Ubuntu Ready?" questions...