The "I hate BP" thread

[whiskeylover]

This is just heart breaking.

http://i.huffpost.com/gadgets/slideshows/6569/slide_6569_96638_large.jpg

More pictures here

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/05/03/gulf-oil-spill-photos-ani_n_560813.html

[wojox]

I checked the link and it goes to "How to avoid being rude when using your iPad"

That is pretty bad. :(

[whiskeylover]

I checked the link and it goes to "How to avoid being rude when using your iPad"

That is pretty bad. :(

Fixed. Thanks. Stupid dual clipboard in Linux.

[Simian Man]

That's really sickening. BP has a full page ad in our newspaper saying they will fix the problem. EVERY SINGLE DAY. Why the hell are they wasting money advertising instead of putting it into action?

[RiceMonster]

I really hope this latest attempt works in at least some way. It's really sad to see pictures like that. It's absolutely ridiculous how long this has gone on.

[julio_cortez]

That's really sickening. BP has a full page ad in our newspaper saying they will fix the problem. EVERY SINGLE DAY. Why the hell are they wasting money advertising instead of putting it into action?
Agree.

They are EXPECTED to fix the issue, no matter what. They'd better stop telling people "we'll fix it" and start doing it for real.

[Dr. C]

These pictures belong on a billboard by the side of a busy freeway at rush hour, because in reality that is the real cause of the problem. If more people walked, biked, car pooled, took public transit etc, companies like BP would not have to drill under such dangerous conditions for oil.

[alexan]

I do see lot of people filling their mouth with "BP, BP, BP"...
do you realize how many oil platform there's around this globe?

And that no one had idea how deal with such problem? That's absolutely crazy.

[dragos240]

I understand what's happening. True, it's particually BP's falut for doing little to help. But also it was bush's fault for getting rid of laws that help prevent accidents like it. Also, we are also the ones who need bashing. Here we are bashing BP about doing nothing about the issue, and we, ourselves are doing nothing. While I could argue that this has to do with politics, i'll stay out of it. If I'm not mistaken, you can volenteer to help out clean the beaches and coasts.

Regards,
Dragos240

[cbecker78]

Aww comeon, they did try launching trash into the pipeline. And golf balls. What more could we ask for?

/sarcasm

Maybe we should try launching their CEO into the line to plug the leak?

[LowSky]

Here is my whole take on this disaster.

1. This should have been preventable. I can't believe that these companies are allowed to operate without emergency scenarios and fixes.
2. This is a world crisis, not an American one. The oil will soon find it's way onto the shores of many of the counteries.
3. Every company involved in the running of that Oil Rig should be working to solve this issue.
4. This is going to effect the jobs of so many people. From fisherman to beach resorts no one is safe.
5. Why haven't other oil companies been asked to help with the issue?
6. It shouldn't take months to fix this.
7.I hope every company that is behind this disaster goes into financial ruin for turning the Gulf of Mexico in to an oil slick.

[toupeiro]

I'm not saying this to be the devils advocate to the oil industry, but BP did suggest a method, that, at least scientifically, makes sense, and politicians, who generally know less than **** all about earth science shot it down. There is too much pressure built up around the leak, but tapping the reservoir in a few more places releases the pressure of the REALLY BIG HOLE enough to form a seal and smaller holes that are WAY easier to manage, can be plugged much easier. That makes good sense in practice. It has an immediate negative return, but it also has a high probability of stopping the gushing, something which has been an utter failure thus far. It won't happen because while the environment is important, political PR is more important in this country. Hate BP for their negligence, but hate just about everyone else up the line for the amount of time its taken to fix this... the fact is, if BP were allowed to tap the reservoir again, I'm willing to bet less overall oil would have been spilled by now. Saying "fix it" but tieing their hands is bull. This is a mess, and its going to probably take a mess to fix it.

Don't get me wrong, I am utterly disgusted by what happened, and saddened by the loss of life. I have anger towards BP and world politicians over it, They make the entire industries practice look incapable of operating safely. but in my opinion the worst thing to do in a disaster like this is let anger overrule common sense, reason, and reality.

Common Sense: Most of us aren't earth scientists, and its really easy to talk about how this should have been fixed before it ever started when you don't understand whats involved. The whodunit's can come later, but the people with the background in earth science need to be untethered and be free of political or private agenda if this issues is ever going to be fixed anytime soon.

Reason: Before you start to attack people who aren't as outraged as you on this issue and try to cling to some sort of realistic opinion based on whats known, review your own dependence on what is now soaking into our Gulf Coast, not just in your cars, but in your paint, your toothpaste, your clothing, your hair products, Nobody cares about self-righteousness right now, if you want to help fix the problem, then help, but just just being another couch potato with a voice isn't helping. If you want to start changing the worlds demand for petroleum products, start with yourself and work outwardly.

Reality: This is a horrible, horrible thing that happened. From what information I've researched, it sounds like it could have been prevented. BP will likely be bankrupt after this is all said and done, so those wishing all this financial vindication will get their wishes. In the long run, none of that matters. You're perfectly willing to complain when gas costs too much, and even more willing to complain when something fails in the supply/demand chain and causes SERIOUS damage to our ecosystem. We all have to learn to accept our piece of the problem here, in the bigger picture. Yes, BP screwed up, bad! It's deplorable. Their operating standards are most likely to blame, but there is a bigger picture here, we should all stop ignoring it.

It's going to take all three of these things to really fix this problem.

[Simian Man]

4. This is going to effect the jobs of so many people. From fisherman to beach resorts no one is safe.

Here in Florida it has already had a big impact on our tourism. And we haven't even had any oil on our beaches yet! We've seen a big drop just on speculation and misinformation. I hate to think what will happen if/when the oil reaches us. This is awful for us since tourism IS our income; we don't have any kind of state income tax like most states do. Pretty much everything state sponsored such as Universities have already had major cuts and it doesn't look to improve soon :(.

[rottentree]

What the hell is that animal?

[RiceMonster]

What the hell is that animal?

It's a bird covered in oil from the spill.

[wojox]

Here in Florida it has already had a big impact on our tourism. And we haven't even had any oil on our beaches yet! We've seen a big drop just on speculation and misinformation. I hate to think what will happen if/when the oil reaches us. This is awful for us since tourism IS our income; we don't have any kind of state income tax like most states do. Pretty much everything state sponsored such as Universities have already had major cuts and it doesn't look to improve soon :(.

We are on stand by down here in South West Florida. It's incredible 37 percent of Gulf of Mexico is off limits. This is out of control.

Watch the The Daily Show with Jon Stewart. He goes off just ripping on them. Pretty funny guy he is.

[earthpigg]

7.I hope every company that is behind this disaster goes into financial ruin for turning the Gulf of Mexico in to an oil slick.

this.

the problem is, we (the US) currently have no effective way of punishing corporations....

...fine the corporation $x. stocks dip for a while, corporation fires n thousand employees, stocks come back up.

it accomplishes nothing lasting.

we need to make it personal, for the guys that make the calls at the corporation:

identify the top 20 stock holders (as of one week prior to the disaster or crime against humanity or crime against Earth, whichever). seize 30% of their stock in the company, and sell it to whomever wants to purchase it at half cost.

awwww, you need to sell your $20m house now? to freakin bad, scum bag.

all stock holders not in the top 20? seize 10% of their stock. this probably won't cause financial ruin for them, but it will make it most advantageous for investors to invest in non-criminal corporations.

fixed fines of X million dollars simply don't work.

[wilee-nilee]

I'm not saying this to be the devils advocate to the oil industry, but BP did suggest a method, that, at least scientifically, makes sense, and politicians, who generally know less than **** all about earth science shot it down. There is too much pressure built up around the leak, but tapping the reservoir in a few more places releases the pressure of the REALLY BIG HOLE enough to form a seal and smaller holes that are WAY easier to manage, can be plugged much easier. That makes good sense in practice. It has an immediate negative return, but it also has a high probability of stopping the gushing, something which has been an utter failure thus far. It won't happen because while the environment is important, political PR is more important in this country. Hate BP for their negligence, but hate just about everyone else up the line for the amount of time its taken to fix this... the fact is, if BP were allowed to tap the reservoir again, I'm willing to bet less overall oil would have been spilled by now. Saying "fix it" but tieing their hands is bull. This is a mess, and its going to probably take a mess to fix it.

Don't get me wrong, I am utterly disgusted by what happened, and saddened by the loss of life. I have anger towards BP and world politicians over it, They make the entire industries practice look incapable of operating safely. but in my opinion the worst thing to do in a disaster like this is let anger overrule common sense, reason, and reality.

Common Sense: Most of us aren't earth scientists, and its really easy to talk about how this should have been fixed before it ever started when you don't understand whats involved. The whodunit's can come later, but the people with the background in earth science need to be untethered and be free of political or private agenda if this issues is ever going to be fixed anytime soon.

Reason: Before you start to attack people who aren't as outraged as you on this issue and try to cling to some sort of realistic opinion based on whats known, review your own dependence on what is now soaking into our Gulf Coast, not just in your cars, but in your paint, your toothpaste, your clothing, your hair products, Nobody cares about self-righteousness right now, if you want to help fix the problem, then help, but just just being another couch potato with a voice isn't helping. If you want to start changing the worlds demand for petroleum products, start with yourself and work outwardly.

Reality: This is a horrible, horrible thing that happened. From what information I've researched, it sounds like it could have been prevented. BP will likely be bankrupt after this is all said and done, so those wishing all this financial vindication will get their wishes. In the long run, none of that matters. You're perfectly willing to complain when gas costs too much, and even more willing to complain when something fails in the supply/demand chain and causes SERIOUS damage to our ecosystem. We all have to learn to accept our piece of the problem here, in the bigger picture. Yes, BP screwed up, bad! It's deplorable. Their operating standards are most likely to blame, but there is a bigger picture here, we should all stop ignoring it.

It's going to take all three of these things to really fix this problem.

This is the Linux forums a cogent argument looks like spam to most here, well said. ;)

[nikhilbhardwaj]

the only reason bp pumps oil
is because we use it every day knowing fully well the risks

this isn't the first eco tragedy that has happened
and this wont be the last

we need to introspect, blaming bp solves nothing

thats just my 2 cents.

[LowSky]

the only reason bp pumps oil
is because we use it every day knowing fully well the risks
I doubt most people know even 3% of the risks, people just want things to work, and not be bothersome to their lives. People want less governance when things run smoothly but once something goes wrong they want someone to do something quickly to fix it.


this isn't the first eco tragedy that has happened and this wont be the last

Your right, but we can make sure none are ever as bad as this ever again.


we need to introspect, blaming bp solves nothing
Actually blaming BP (or TransOcean and Haliburton as they are also involved in this mess) is a good thing. Corporations and the people who run them are accountable for their actions.

[MindSz]

We are at a point where we are smart enough to realize that we are depleting our planet's resources, but we are stupid enough to sit on our a$$es and wait for 'someone' to do 'something'.

Even though I agree that governments should keep a closer eye on oils companies and such, we can all do our part to help our planet.

I started riding my bike to work last year. It doesn't sound like much, but I stopped burning around 5 gallons of gas per week (I still need the car for other things).

Every little change we make in our life can help, no matter how small.

[toupeiro]

I doubt most people know even 3% of the risks, people just want things to work, and not be bothersome to their lives. People want less governance when things run smoothly but once something goes wrong they want someone to do something quickly to fix it.



Your right, but we can make sure none are ever as bad as this ever again.


Actually blaming BP (or TransOcean and Haliburton as they are also involved in this mess) is a good thing. Corporations and the people who run them are accountable for their actions.

Your first mistake here is actually thinking you can "make sure" human error never happens again and that an issue like this will never happen again. You can put all known possible safeguards around it, but you can never predict every possible scenario. That's a fools errand. If you want to prevent it from ever happening again, you have to alter the demand so that its no longer necessary to produce that kind of supply. Maybe we are not technologically ready to be 100% independant from petroleum products yet, but there is LOTS that can be done to reduce the demand. You want to stop offshore drilling, then people need to collectively lower the demand of whats being drilled for. That's the only way its going to happen. Its going to take a long time, but it will never happen if we continue to do nothing and think everything will be ok and everything is 100% preventable.

secondly. Holding BP accountable is important. BP is holding themselves accountable. Thats been said and done. What possible good will come of continuing to shout whose fault it is if thats already accepted and known? Reminding everyone that its BP's fault doesn't stop the seepage.

[BoneKracker]

I'm not saying this to be the devils advocate to the oil industry, but BP did suggest a method, that, at least scientifically, makes sense, and politicians, who generally know less than **** all about earth science shot it down. There is too much pressure built up around the leak, but tapping the reservoir in a few more places releases the pressure of the REALLY BIG HOLE enough to form a seal and smaller holes that are WAY easier to manage, can be plugged much easier. That makes good sense in practice. It has an immediate negative return, but it also has a high probability of stopping the gushing, something which has been an utter failure thus far. It won't happen because while the environment is important, political PR is more important in this country. Hate BP for their negligence, but hate just about everyone else up the line for the amount of time its taken to fix this... the fact is, if BP were allowed to tap the reservoir again, I'm willing to bet less overall oil would have been spilled by now. Saying "fix it" but tieing their hands is bull. This is a mess, and its going to probably take a mess to fix it.

Don't get me wrong, I am utterly disgusted by what happened, and saddened by the loss of life. I have anger towards BP and world politicians over it, They make the entire industries practice look incapable of operating safely. but in my opinion the worst thing to do in a disaster like this is let anger overrule common sense, reason, and reality.

Common Sense: Most of us aren't earth scientists, and its really easy to talk about how this should have been fixed before it ever started when you don't understand whats involved. The whodunit's can come later, but the people with the background in earth science need to be untethered and be free of political or private agenda if this issues is ever going to be fixed anytime soon.

Reason: Before you start to attack people who aren't as outraged as you on this issue and try to cling to some sort of realistic opinion based on whats known, review your own dependence on what is now soaking into our Gulf Coast, not just in your cars, but in your paint, your toothpaste, your clothing, your hair products, Nobody cares about self-righteousness right now, if you want to help fix the problem, then help, but just just being another couch potato with a voice isn't helping. If you want to start changing the worlds demand for petroleum products, start with yourself and work outwardly.

Reality: This is a horrible, horrible thing that happened. From what information I've researched, it sounds like it could have been prevented. BP will likely be bankrupt after this is all said and done, so those wishing all this financial vindication will get their wishes. In the long run, none of that matters. You're perfectly willing to complain when gas costs too much, and even more willing to complain when something fails in the supply/demand chain and causes SERIOUS damage to our ecosystem. We all have to learn to accept our piece of the problem here, in the bigger picture. Yes, BP screwed up, bad! It's deplorable. Their operating standards are most likely to blame, but there is a bigger picture here, we should all stop ignoring it.

It's going to take all three of these things to really fix this problem.

Pretty much the only intelligent thing that's been said so far.

The U.S. Government are the ones screwing this up. How is it that it has not stepped in and fixed this? Are we actually to believe that BP has more capability than the combined resources of the United States of America? No. The problem is that those resources have not been effectively marshaled in response to this crisis. Are we to believe that, all this time, the fate of the most powerful nation on Earth has been in the hands of individual corporations, to do with each pleases, with the Nation lacking any recourse in the event of a problem? It's simply not the case. Not even close.

Yes, people are appropriately angry at BP, but don't be steered like sheep into neglecting where the real failure lies that we are witnessing here, and it's a failure of staggering proportions.

Bad things happen. Natural disasters happen. Accidents happen. Wars happen. Prevention, avoidance, mitigation -- all important. But sometimes they happen anyway. When they do, we can't afford to sit around and cry in our soup -- we, collectively, have to fix them. The U.S. Government's reliance on BP to fix this problem is criminal negligence of monstrous proportions.

When a building catches fire, we don't expect our governments to sit around and bitch about who started it and how they are going to collect money from them. We expect them to put out the fire.

Moreover, we don't expect them to encourage the morons who are saying things like, "Yeah! See! That's what happens when you build houses out of trees."

And, we especially don't expect them to try to deflect blame by relying on the guy whose toaster started the fire to put it out, and then pointing their bony finger to encourage the torch-and-pitchfork-wielding crowds to attack him because they haven't been able to get out of their own way to organize any kind of coherent response.

[toupeiro]

Pretty much the only intelligent thing that's been said so far.

The U.S. Government are the ones screwing this up. How is it that it has not stepped in and fixed this? Are we actually to believe that BP has more capability than the combined resources of the United States of America? No. The problem is that those resources have not been effectively marshaled in response to this crisis. Are we to believe that, all this time, the fate of the most powerful nation on Earth has been in the hands of individual corporations, to do with each pleases, with the Nation lacking any recourse in the event of a problem? It's simply not the case. Not even close.

Yes, people are appropriately angry at BP, but don't be steered like sheep into neglecting where the real failure lies that we are witnessing here, and it's a failure of staggering proportions.

Bad things happen. Natural disasters happen. Accidents happen. Wars happen. Prevention, avoidance, mitigation -- all important. But sometimes they happen anyway. When they do, we can't afford to sit around and cry in our soup -- we, collectively, have to fix them. The U.S. Government's reliance on BP to fix this problem is criminal negligence of monstrous proportions.

When a building catches fire, we don't expect our governments to sit around and bitch about who started it and how they are going to collect money from them. We expect them to put out the fire.

Moreover, we don't expect them to encourage the morons who are saying things like, "Yeah! See! That's what happens when you build houses out of trees."

And, we especially don't expect them to try to deflect blame by relying on the guy whose toaster started the fire to put it out, and then pointing their bony finger to encourage the torch-and-pitchfork-wielding crowds to attack him because they haven't been able to get out of their own way to organize any kind of coherent response.

At the risk of getting political, I'll simply say that America's set itself up for this dependency on corporations to act for us. We just went through almost a decade of total corporate deregulation, and government handed our interests over to the private sector with a smile on their face and a goofy cowboy hat on. May history reflect our mistakes boldly and blatantly, that their costs are not so soon forgotten by our future generations.

[wilee-nilee]

Hey I said well said. ;)

[johnb820]

At the risk of getting political, I'll simply say that America's set itself up for this dependency on corporations to act for us. We just went through almost a decade of total corporate deregulation, and government handed our interests over to the private sector with a smile on their face and a goofy cowboy hat on. May history reflect our mistakes boldly and blatantly, that their costs are not so soon forgotten by our future generations.

Thank you! Although this policy of deregulation and tax cuts for these corporations started under Reagan's administration. To steer away from politics, we need to learn to lessen our dependence on oil, whether it is the cars we drive or the plastics that everything is made of these days. It will take will power both culturally and from a business perspective because we can't keep relinquishing our lives and our planet for a fossil fuel. Everyone has the power to make the adjustments and free themselves from the corporate world.

[Elfy]

I should steer away from politics a bit quicker please - the other thread managed to do so from what I could see - let's hope this one does the same.

That said and possibly completely off-topic while I can understand the feelings of impotence an issue like this brings - at the moment the oil spill itself has only caused economic issues to us as humans - apart from those killed in the initial explosion.

This issue is part of one which is a whole world problem in my opinion that will not be solved in our lifetime - money rules regardless of where and how you live - I wonder how many people in this thread are old enough to remember what an american company did to Bhopal and the fact that is still not resolved - it's a people in glass houses thing.

[jerenept]

Thank you! Although this policy of deregulation and tax cuts for these corporations started under Reagan's administration. To steer away from politics, we need to learn to lessen our dependence on oil, whether it is the cars we drive or the plastics that everything is made of these days. It will take will power both culturally and from a business perspective because we can't keep relinquishing our lives and our planet for a fossil fuel. Everyone has the power to make the adjustments and free themselves from the corporate world.

this is what we in Trinidad and Tobago have been begging our government for decades. Our country is completely dependant on energy, and, despite many highly experienced and respected economists and even businessmen asking the government to diversify, only recently has the process begun.

BTW, one of the world's largest oil spills happened off the coast of Tobago, the Atlantic Empress / Aegean Captain, which spilled 287,000 tonnes of crude oil onto WHITE PRISTINE beaches, and some of the largest corals in the world.

Add that to the ignorance and the locals' lack of concern.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Empress

[sites]

The U.S. Government are the ones screwing this up. How is it that it has not stepped in and fixed this?

No. I don't trust those puppets to fix a leak in a bathroom. The only thing they need to do is hire competent people to fix this and not get in their way.

[toupeiro]

I should steer away from politics a bit quicker please - the other thread managed to do so from what I could see - let's hope this one does the same.

That said and possibly completely off-topic while I can understand the feelings of impotence an issue like this brings - at the moment the oil spill itself has only caused economic issues to us as humans - apart from those killed in the initial explosion.

This issue is part of one which is a whole world problem in my opinion that will not be solved in our lifetime - money rules regardless of where and how you live - I wonder how many people in this thread are old enough to remember what an american company did to Bhopal and the fact that is still not resolved - it's a people in glass houses thing.

Understood. This can be a very difficult topic to discuss that is void of political overshadow, they are just too laced with eachother.

I don't find it as much as a people in glass houses kind of thing. I don't think anyone, reasonably anyways, feels that the negligence of BP has anything to do with them being a foreign owned company to the U.S. Really, it has to do with the UK's same lax approach that the US has taken to deregulating these corporations. You're right, this is much bigger than one countries problem. As an international company, you have a level of not only corporate, but international responsibility when you operate business in foreign soil or foreign waters. That has to mean something again.

[BoneKracker]

At the risk of getting political, I'll simply say that America's set itself up for this dependency on corporations to act for us. We just went through almost a decade of total corporate deregulation, and government handed our interests over to the private sector with a smile on their face and a goofy cowboy hat on. May history reflect our mistakes boldly and blatantly, that their costs are not so soon forgotten by our future generations.

I don't see this as an issue of partisan politics, and please don't try to make it so. Also, I think you missed my point.

What I am saying is that the government is creating a smokescreen of apparent dependence in order the shield itself from the backlash.

Our inability to respond effectively to this has nothing to do with deregulation. That's an issue on the side of prevention, avoidance, mitigation, etc. This is a different problem.

As I said, sometimes bad things happen anyway. Our man in the goofy cowboy hat found that out the hard way with Katrina. That disaster too could have been prevented, avoided, mitigated, and so on (you can't prevent a hurricane, but you can build bigger dikes, provide better pumps, create working evacuation plans, conduct public education, practice emergency response coordination, etc.). And you know what? The failure to do so didn't happen under Cowboy Hat, it happened under Dress Stain. But once the crisis happens, the central challenge is not fixing blame -- the issue becomes dealing with the crisis. And our government failed to deal effectively with the crisis.

Now, we are failing to deal with another crisis, but this time around, all we've done so far is spread blame. The analogous Federal Government action in the Katrina situation would be to do nothing for a whole month except make a big public show of telling the Mayor of New Orleans to get the problem fixed, and then to make a big public show about how mad we are that he hasn't done so. It might have been the city's fault it wasn't prepared, and the primary onus might be on them to deal with the crisis, but sitting back and pointing fingers at them to deflect blame would not have been an acceptable course of action to resolve the crisis. Likewise, sitting back and pointing fingers at BP is not now an acceptable course of action to resolve this crisis.

[toupeiro]

I don't see this as an issue of partisan politics, and please don't try to make it so. Also, I think you missed my point.

What I am saying is that the government is creating a smokescreen of apparent dependence in order the shield itself from the backlash.

Our inability to respond effectively to this has nothing to do with deregulation. That's an issue on the side of prevention, avoidance, mitigation, etc. This is a different problem.

As I said, sometimes bad things happen anyway. Our man in the goofy cowboy hat found that out the hard way with Katrina. That disaster too could have been prevented, avoided, mitigated, and so on (you can't prevent a hurricane, but you can build bigger dikes, provide better pumps, create working evacuation plans, conduct public education, practice emergency response coordination, etc.). And you know what? The failure to do so didn't happen under Cowboy Hat, it happened under Dress Stain. But once the crisis happens, the central challenge is not fixing blame -- the issue becomes dealing with the crisis. And our government failed to deal effectively with the crisis.

Now, we are failing to deal with another crisis, but this time around, all we've done so far is spread blame. The analogous Federal Government action in the Katrina situation would be to do nothing for a whole month except make a big public show of telling the Mayor of New Orleans to get the problem fixed, and then to make a big public show about how mad we are that he hasn't done so. It might have been the city's fault it wasn't prepared, and the primary onus might be on them to deal with the crisis, but sitting back and pointing fingers at them to deflect blame would not have been an acceptable course of action to resolve the crisis. Likewise, sitting back and pointing fingers at BP is not now an acceptable course of action to resolve this crisis.

I wasn't attempting to sound partisan. I am simply calling it as it was played. Deregulation was rampant. thats a fact

[Elfy]

Sigh - I really don't want to have to close this - keep the politics out of it. I understand that it's not easy and was never going to be so. But unless you can steer the politics in the direction of "except for politics directly related to free and open source issues" which would be faintly ludicrous, this forum is not the place for political discussion.

[toupeiro]

Sigh - I really don't want to have to close this - keep the politics out of it. I understand that it's not easy and was never going to be so. But unless you can steer the politics in the direction of "except for politics directly related to free and open source issues" which would be faintly ludicrous, this forum is not the place for political discussion.

trying to. For the record. the hat thing was tongue in cheek. I just think those hats are ridiculous. I could have picked my words better.

So without any political affliction, I think we can safely agree that we (currently contributing in the last 10 or so posts) that this is a world issue, and while it may come to show that malpractice and human error was the cause, this problem is far bigger than one companies mistake. At some point, there has to be a breaking point where real action starts taking place towards change. I always wonder which event its going to be. Surely it wasn't the gas crunch in the 70's.(which it should have been) Will it be this?

[samjh]

While there is plenty of heat against BP at the moment, let's not forget that it was the US government's Minerals Management Service of the Department of Interior that approved the drilling operation, including the decision to not require an acoustically-triggered blow-out preventer.

While President Obama has been doing a stellar job of deflecting all the blame toward BP, one should not ignore that the US government shares culpability by authorising the drilling in the first place. There ought to be a thorough review of the US government's environmental and operational safety regulations regarding offshore drilling, so that future disasters can be better mitigated against.

[kpholmes]

its so funny.... everyone wants to be green, and the oil companies are evil etc... but who are they supplying? us.. anyone can hate BP, but the people who do are just hypocrites. the world runs on oil. its a fact. until theres an alternative thats competitive against oil (hydrogen still has some way to go). quite complaining and find a solution cause the only reason they are in business is because WE are buying their products.

[wilee-nilee]

While there is plenty of heat against BP at the moment, let's not forget that it was the US government's Minerals Management Service of the Department of Interior that approved the drilling operation, including the decision to not require an acoustically-triggered blow-out preventer.

While President Obama has been doing a stellar job of deflecting all the blame toward BP, one should not ignore that the US government shares culpability by authorising the drilling in the first place. There ought to be a thorough review of the US government's environmental and operational safety regulations regarding offshore drilling, so that future disasters can be better mitigated against.

It appears the blowout was broken anyway and that BP knew this and the computers running it were borked as well.

[madnessjack]

I'm just gonna say this- why do people have to vilify everything?

[wilee-nilee]

I'm just gonna say this- why do Americans have to vilify everything?

Nice generalization, that British education system has done you well.

[czig49]

i feel the need to hate the lil secrets of BP as well read bottom of sign

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3010/3060161232_fe272a045d.jpg

[madnessjack]

Nice generalization, that British education system has done you well.

I'm just as mortified and upset as the next guy about accidents like this. A similar thing happened in Wales when I wad a kid, it was devastating.

But I don't understand this "LET'S HATE THEM!!!" attitude. This is a tragedy, not a blame war.

[wilee-nilee]

I'm just as mortified and upset as the next guy about accidents like this. A similar thing happened in Wales when I wad a kid, it was devastating.

But I don't understand this "LET'S HATE THEM!!!" attitude. This is a tragedy, not a blame war.

As a few have commented blaming isn't the answer, so I agree. It is tough to not be frustrated and think why isn't this being fixed. It really is beyond the science we have now to stop a well at 5000 feet which has a 1000 feet of mud before hitting a solid floor, and is gushing at the pressure it is.

[fatality_uk]

http://www.photius.com/rankings/economy/oil_consumption_2009_0.html

Now if we begin to look at how to reduce global and in particular US oil consumption, then the US government may not need to issue deep water permits, where engineering science is really at the limits, and companies like BP will not be forced to find even fewer drops of oil for the dangers that it provides.

[mmix]

that's remind me of this:

stop sucking oil from mother earth.
use solar energy.

[fatality_uk]

nice photo. i'll set is as my wallpaper

Seriously!!! I mean, you have to know that is going to be seen as an inflammatory comment, even if you then go on to clarify that you "wanted it to remind you of the devastation" etc.



http://www.photius.com/rankings/economy/oil_consumption_2009_0.html

Now if we begin to look at how to reduce global and in particular US oil consumption, then the US government may not need to issue deep water permits, where engineering science is really at the limits, and companies like BP will not be forced to find even fewer drops of oil for the dangers that it provides.

[wojox]

I wad a kid

What does that mean?

[Lightstar]

Those <really rotten people> could have stopped it on the first day, but they'd be losing much money. They really put their values in the wrong place. And innocent animals are paying for that. This sucks

[fatality_uk]

What does that mean?

Kid is sang term for youngster :D

[fatality_uk]

Those <really rotten people> could have stopped it on the first day, but they'd be losing much money. They really put their values in the wrong place. And innocent animals are paying for that. This sucks

Having read the reports, they couldn't. If you know otherwise, please share the information that you base your assumption on.

Secondly, assuming they could, why would they? The core product that BP were planning to sell into the US market from this platform is now being destroyed. To assume they could and somehow chose not to is illogical at best.

[pommie]

OK, all those who have never used a petroleum product can continue to blast the oil co-operations, the other 100% of us should really have a good look in a mirror, its us that pay these companies to go and drill for oil.
As for the governments of the world doing something about it, just watch the complaints about spending public money and then the backlash at the next election, again its us that are to blame, the politicians will only do something that gets them votes, or at the very least not cost them votes and we are the voters.

Cheers David, who hopes that somehow it plugs itself.

[XubuRoxMySox]

Those of us in the United States should be aware that BP doesn't own any gas stations here. All of them are franchises, so if you boycott them you're really only hurting "the little guy" who owns the local gas station rather than BP.

We get fuel at BP to offset the uninformed boycott of these small businesses that only hurts the local business owner, who is already hurting badly enough in this economy.

Trying to stay above it all,
Robin

[klytu]

Here is my whole take on this disaster.

1. This should have been preventable. I can't believe that these companies are allowed to operate without emergency scenarios and fixes.
2. This is a world crisis, not an American one. The oil will soon find it's way onto the shores of many of the counteries.
3. Every company involved in the running of that Oil Rig should be working to solve this issue.
4. This is going to effect the jobs of so many people. From fisherman to beach resorts no one is safe.
5. Why haven't other oil companies been asked to help with the issue?
6. It shouldn't take months to fix this.
7.I hope every company that is behind this disaster goes into financial ruin for turning the Gulf of Mexico in to an oil slick.

Excellent points! I especially agree with points 1, 2, and 5. I've also been wondering why other oil companies haven't (publicly) offered to help.

[wojox]

Kid is sang term for youngster :D

I know what kid is. Whats it mean to wad?

[fatality_uk]

I know what kid is. Whats it mean to wad?

Was typo?

[Old Marcus]

I know what kid is. Whats it mean to wad?

A thread about a global environmental and economic crisis and you're picking out a TYPO?

[RiceMonster]

Here's a video that I think is pretty interesting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHmhxpQEGPo&feature=player_embedded[

It talks about how strikingly similar this spill is to the Ixtoc Oil spill in 1979, which was also in the Gulf.

[Old Marcus]

Here's a video that I think is pretty interesting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHmhxpQEGPo&feature=player_embedded[

It talks about how strikingly similar this spill is to the Ixtoc Oil spill in 1979, which was also in the Gulf.

It's all a conspiracy! Run for your lives!

Sorry, couldn't resist. But yeah, it is similar, I guess oil spills generally are.

[Shining Arcanine]

This is just heart breaking.

http://i.huffpost.com/gadgets/slideshows/6569/slide_6569_96638_large.jpg

More pictures here

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/05/03/gulf-oil-spill-photos-ani_n_560813.html
Oil coated animals are actually a natural occurrence. The incidence rates for them across all of time are fairly low, regardless of whether human beings are involved or not.

Anyway, this is not BP's fault. The federal government could have used nuclear explosives to stop the leak a few days after it started, but they refused.

[RiceMonster]

It's all a conspiracy! Run for your lives!

Sorry, couldn't resist. But yeah, it is similar, I guess oil spills generally are.

Ha, I wasn't trying to say it's a conspiracy. It's just interesting to see how similar it was, is all.


Oil coated animals are actually a natural occurrence.

Animals covered in oil from a gushing wellhead is a natural occurrence? Are you serious?

[Giant Speck]

I'm more willing to blame dependence on oil than I am any corporation for this disaster.

But if I were to choose which corporation deserves the most blame, it would be Transocean. After all, it was their oil rig that malfunctioned and exploded. At least BP has stepped up and accepted responsibility for the oil spill and clean up and is actually doing something about it, unlike Transocean and other companies involved in the spill.

[Shining Arcanine]

Animals covered in oil from a gushing wellhead is a natural occurrence? Are you serious?

That is a loaded question, because not all oil is from gushing wellheads.

Anyway, oil naturally seeps from the ground. Some American Indians waxed their canoes with oil they found in rivers because they found doing so improved their canoes. It was not until people realized oil was a significant enough form of energy that it could easily be converted into money that they started building oil wells where ever they found oil seeping out of the ground. Then afterward, they started searching for oil in places where it was not yet obvious that it was seeping out of the ground.

[RiceMonster]

Yes. Oil naturally seeps from the ground. Some American Indians waxed their canoes with oil they found in rivers because they found doing so improved their canoes.

Even if that is the case, thousands of barrels a day gushing from a man made wellhead, is not natural, no matter how you look at it. Your post seemed to imply that this is a natural occurrence.


I'm more willing to blame dependence on oil than I am any corporation for this disaster.

But if I were to choose which corporation deserves the most blame, it would be Transocean. After all, it was their oil rig that malfunctioned and exploded. At least BP has stepped up and accepted responsibility for the oil spill and clean up and is actually doing something about it, unlike Transocean and other companies involved in the spill.

I've been also been wondering why Transocean has been able to get away with this. Why aren't they involved in the cleanup as well?

[Giant Speck]

I've been also been wondering why Transocean has been able to get away with this. Why haven't they been forced to assist BP in the cleanup? Why aren't they involved in the cleanup as well?
Because to common folk, BP is larger and more recognizable than Transocean. That, and the fact that BP was leasing the rig from Transocean is enough reason for people to put the full blame on BP.

[Ric_NYC]

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/3135/screenshotynq.png

http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/9930/19538605.png


http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/6678/15130069.png


http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/5694/screenshot1awk.png


http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/5770/90840913.png


http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/3817/86557842.png

[Shining Arcanine]

Even if that is the case, thousands of barrels a day gushing from a man made wellhead, is not natural, no matter how you look at it. Your post seemed to imply that this is a natural occurrence.



I've been also been wondering why Transocean has been able to get away with this. Why aren't they involved in the cleanup as well?

Although it is an infrequent occurrence, having thousands of barrels of oil per day gush from the ground is a natural occurrence and natural usually deals with it. The same can be said for lava and ash from volcanoes.

[dragos240]

Why is oil so bad for birds? Sorry for not knowing.

[Giant Speck]

Why is oil so bad for birds? Sorry for not knowing.

Because... it's poisonous...?

[RiceMonster]

Why is oil so bad for birds? Sorry for not knowing.

Well amongst many reasons, the oil is heavy and prevents them from being able to fly.

[Phrea]

Why is oil so bad for birds? Sorry for not knowing.

It destroys the properties of their feathers, making them unable to to take flight, or even stay afloat properly.
Of course, it's poisonous too.

[Shining Arcanine]

Why is oil so bad for birds? Sorry for not knowing.

It seems to adhere to their feathers fairly well and it does not seem to evaporate or wash away, so they lose the ability to fly and with that, their ability to forge for food. Being covered with oil is a death sentence for birds.

[Superkoop]

I've gotta agree with the folks laying the blame on all of us humans for demanding so much oil. Though I do think it was foolish to let people do deep water drilling, but that's kinda obvious now.

I believe the automobile was quite possibly the worst invention ever, and I've believed such a thing since I was old enough to understand the situation. (I'm only 20 now, however I've understood the problems with cars since I was about 14.) Not only do automobiles require insane amounts of fossil fuels, which results in things happening like this, but they are downright dangerous.
Why is it that when other products result in death, they are taken off the market? Yet, thousands of people are killed each year in auto accidents, and we just sit here?
Are the costs of moving from one place to another, really worth the costs?

Apparently, they are.

I personally try as much as possible to go without cars. I don't need to drive somewhere that I can walk or bike within minutes. Though until people are willing to see the costs of driving, this problem is the result of no one else's but our own greed.

[the.scarecrow]

In the UK and France, every time a new windmill generator is proposed a local army of "environmentalists" pop up complaining how bad this is for the local area environment.

Presumably these same folk find this current situation preferable.

The problem is not BP, its all of us. Shame the birds have to suffer like this because they would prefer NOT to consume any oil.

If I am not wrong, USA citizens consume vastly more oil per head that any other country.

[toupeiro]

It really is beyond the science we have now to stop a well at 5000 feet which has a 1000 feet of mud before hitting a solid floor, and is gushing at the pressure it is.

I pretty thoroughly disagree with this. I think there is a lot of scientific suggestion that is being dismissed for reasons of public relation. The PR side wants it fixed, but wants it fixed in the least dangerous and toxic way possible. Scientific suggestions to this issue do not all fit into this category. Sometimes it's a matter of which is the lesser evil. Apparently, not enough birds have washed up yet for the science thats out there which could really fix this issue to be wielded.

Again, I'm no earth scientist, but I actually do work for an oil company, and I've seen and been around very old, very densely productive oil fields enough to believe that at least one of BP's suggested methods may just work. The table still isn't open for every idea, therefore I do not accept that we have exceeded the limits of our known science to fix this.

[toupeiro]

I've gotta agree with the folks laying the blame on all of us humans for demanding so much oil. Though I do think it was foolish to let people do deep water drilling, but that's kinda obvious now.

I believe the automobile was quite possibly the worst invention ever, and I've believed such a thing since I was old enough to understand the situation. (I'm only 20 now, however I've understood the problems with cars since I was about 14.) Not only do automobiles require insane amounts of fossil fuels, which results in things happening like this, but they are downright dangerous.
Why is it that when other products result in death, they are taken off the market? Yet, thousands of people are killed each year in auto accidents, and we just sit here?
Are the costs of moving from one place to another, really worth the costs?

Apparently, they are.

I personally try as much as possible to go without cars. I don't need to drive somewhere that I can walk or bike within minutes. Though until people are willing to see the costs of driving, this problem is the result of no one else's but our own greed.

The automobile was a marvelous invention. Some of the very first automobiles, ran on steam.........

The introduction of fossil fuels to automobiles was by way of consumer demand for faster, more powerful cars. Again, people want to blame industry, but industries purpose is to delever goods that the people are demanding. Any way you slice this, its a matter of getting what you want having a price, financial or otherwise. The world has been fine with saying that price is acceptable, and the dangers were WAY more apparent then, before the safety regulations, before the machinery available to retreive oil. Much can change in this world if that concept were more widely accepted. Go watch "There Will Be Blood" and watch how people stood naked in pits of oily tar and buckets as a retrieval process. You can't ever convince me, that the dangers weren't known. The conditions have improved EMMENSELY since then, but it is still a very high risk business that the world was more than willing to let them perform to supply the products they want in higher and higher quantities. Much gets done to ensure safety every day, but things will always happen you cannot expect, and they can be very costly. Every time humans collectively gasp at these incidents, but go on living their oil consuming lives without any change, you're accepting that incident as a cost of your lifestyle. If everyone put it into that perspective, the effort to break dependencies on oil and make alternatives more financially efficient would be at the forefront of every energy company out there, but as long as they have to supply the worlds demand, they will be doing that as well.

[fatality_uk]

I pretty thoroughly disagree with this. I think there is a lot of scientific suggestion that is being dismissed for reasons of public relation. The PR side wants it fixed, but wants it fixed in the least dangerous and toxic way possible. Scientific suggestions to this issue do not all fit into this category. Sometimes it's a matter of which is the lesser evil. Apparently, not enough birds have washed up yet for the science thats out there which could really fix this issue to be wielded.

Again, I'm no earth scientist, but I actually do work for an oil company, and I've seen and been around very old, very densely productive oil fields enough to believe that at least one of BP's suggested methods may just work. The table still isn't open for every idea, therefore I do not accept that we have exceeded the limits of our known science to fix this.


I had to re-read this a few times. I really did!!


The PR side wants it fixed, but wants it fixed in the least dangerous and toxic way possible.


Apparently, not enough birds have washed up yet for the science thats out there which could really fix this issue to be wielded.

Please, PLEASE let me understand. Are you seriously suggesting that all parties involved have some sort of "quick-fix" they could roll out tomorrow but are somehow holding it back for some nefarious reason?

[Giant Speck]

Please, PLEASE let me understand. Are you seriously suggesting that all parties involved have some sort of "quick-fix" they could roll out tomorrow but are somehow holding it back for some nefarious reason?

I would imagine that the only way this thing will get fixed will be if they drill relief wells. However, even if they began drilling those now, it'd be months before they're finished.

[toupeiro]

I had to re-read this a few times. I really did!!





Please, PLEASE let me understand. Are you seriously suggesting that all parties involved have some sort of "quick-fix" they could roll out tomorrow but are somehow holding it back for some nefarious reason?

I never said it was only a quick fix they were going for, but they want certainty (in %) of success, and with as quick a resolution as humanly possible. Puncturing a reservoir like this multiple times doesn't wield certainty in a short amount of time, and those punctures would have to be open for a while to lower the pressure of the big gaping hole, thus for a period of time increasing the amount of oil released to decrease the overall pressure, as I understand the idea. I first heard about it briefly on CNN I think, but never really heard it mentioned again. There are a few web articles out about it though.

Naturally, that is a PR nightmare, that makes very good scientific sense. I do have a basic understanding on how pressure, porosity and permeability all affect the retrieval of subsurface oil. The idea makes sense. It's an idea used in practice in controlled environments every day all over the world. The difference here is the environment is uncontrolled, therefore very, very risky. However, nothing else is working. At what point to you pick the lesser evil and put this to bed?

EDIT: The thing is, I am pretty sure the relief wells could be drilled in a manner where the oil from the relief wells could be collected as opposed to going straight into the gulf. knowing what I know about drilling and subsurface (which I will admit is not a whole lot but likely more than the average person), I can't see why that couldn't be done. Again, its easy for me to sit here and speculate not being involved. I want to see this over though, and at this point I wouldn't be dismissive of any idea at all that would result in this being over, even if it was not immediate.

[fatality_uk]

I think there is a lot of scientific suggestion that is being dismissed for reasons of public relation

Such as? And I can tell you in situations like this, PR manage the PR they CERTAINLY wouldn't have too much say in timetables for closing a well or for that matter the technology used.

[toupeiro]

Such as? And I can tell you in situations like this, PR manage the PR they CERTAINLY wouldn't have too much say in timetables for closing a well or for that matter the technology used.

Such as .. the relief wells I've been talking about post, after post, after post, that after a little more research, they are (within the few days) FINALLY starting to gear up for, after a lot of the damage has been done.

And no, PR would have no control over the process of drilling relief wells, which is exactly why its been a dismissed idea, because they wanted a shorter timetable for resolution, and they thought of all these different, and some completely untested, ideas to make this work that had to fail until this became something they would consider which sounds like that was up until apparently the last couple of days.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37432881/ns/gulf_oil_spill/

This idea was brought up way early on, and it does have the very best chance at success, but its risky, and its messy. Now that they have a bigger mess than relief wells could have ever created, they seem ready, but now they are under the scruitiny of time its going to take to prepare this, which really probably could have been done in tandem with the junk shot, the top hat and all the other ideas that have been tried.. Its not as simple as getting a black&decker and drilling...

[wilee-nilee]

I pretty thoroughly disagree with this. I think there is a lot of scientific suggestion that is being dismissed for reasons of public relation. The PR side wants it fixed, but wants it fixed in the least dangerous and toxic way possible. Scientific suggestions to this issue do not all fit into this category. Sometimes it's a matter of which is the lesser evil. Apparently, not enough birds have washed up yet for the science thats out there which could really fix this issue to be wielded.

Again, I'm no earth scientist, but I actually do work for an oil company, and I've seen and been around very old, very densely productive oil fields enough to believe that at least one of BP's suggested methods may just work. The table still isn't open for every idea, therefore I do not accept that we have exceeded the limits of our known science to fix this.

I think it might help to take a listen to this NPR program, there are many others, but this one has some pretty good analysis.
http://www.npr.org/templates/player/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=127477671&m=127477657

If we can step back from the pre-formed bias that we all have, and use a scientific method of analysis it will be a little more helpful, for our selves personally and may create a better understanding of the situation.

[toupeiro]

I think it might help to take a listen to this NPR program, there are many others, but this one has some pretty good analysis.
http://www.npr.org/templates/player/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=127477671&m=127477657

If we can step back from the pre-formed bias that we all have, and use a scientific method of analysis it will be a little more helpful, for our selves personally and may create a better understanding of the situation.

I'm over 12 minutes into it, so far I'm not hearing anythingI havent heard, or disagree with.

My whole point rests so far on 14:45 "The technology, alas, does exist to do some of the things that need to be done, The investment has not been made in that technology."

I don't think I am taking that out of context at all when I say, that's what I've been basically saying from my first post in this thread. Its nice to hear it backed up by NPR though.

[whiskeylover]

The only way BP could be made to "pay" for the mess if the government drives them bankrupt. Or else, they would simply increase their prices and recover their losses within a couple of years. If I'm not mistaken, oil companies make a profit of 10's of billions of dollars every quarter.

[wilee-nilee]

I'm over 12 minutes into it, so far I'm not hearing I havent heard, or disagree with.

My whole point rests so far on 14:45 "The technology, alas, does exist to do some of the things that need to be done, The investment has not been made in that technology."

I don't think I am taking that out of context at all when I say, that's what I've been basically saying from my first post in this thread. Its nice to hear it backed up by NPR though.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, and my statement that it is beyond our means, I will have to go back at my use of words, really is that we may just have some limitations in the scientific area. It is not a black and white solution, which you have pointed out quite well.

I am just hesitant to side with anything other then I don't know, I don't need a solution to feel validation personally, but the human condition requires this for most.

About the only thing I hold as a concrete belief is that human perception is almost always flawed, and I'm the 1st in line in this camp. I don't believe objectivity exists, and that free will is a illusion, but thats just me. There are great studies that are considered to fall into the empirical category which hint at this and psychology constructs that support this and even anthropology and sociology research and constructs which support this idea of a false reality of perception that supports the ideas of a concrete realization conundrum.

But in the end if objectivity is a fleeting moment at best, it is really difficult to not have a biased outlook without realizing it, again I am no different in this it is the social norm systems and cultural, and the way our brains work I think. Also I think we are just born with a certain amount of hardwired stuff that like gene expression, is expressed with outside influence.

[toupeiro]

I don't necessarily disagree with you, and my statement that it is beyond our means, I will have to go back at my use of words, really is that we may just have some limitations in the scientific area. It is not a black and white solution, which you have pointed out quite well.

I am just hesitant to side with anything other then I don't know, I don't need a solution to feel validation personally, but the human condition requires this for most.

About the only thing I hold as a concrete belief is that human perception is almost always flawed, and I'm the 1st in line in this camp. I don't believe objectivity exists, and that free will is a illusion, but thats just me. There are great studies that are considered to fall into the empirical category which hint at this and psychology constructs that support this and even anthropology and sociology research and constructs which support this idea of a false reality of perception that supports the ideas of a concrete realization conundrum.

But in the end if objectivity is a fleeting moment at best, it is really difficult to not have a biased outlook without realizing it, again I am no different in this it is the social norm systems and cultural, and the way our brains work I think. Also I think we are just born with a certain amount of hardwired stuff that like gene expression, is expressed with outside influence.

I hear you, and I think for the most part we are definitely on the same page regarding just about everything you pointed out here.

The only thing I may add to your comment about siding with anything other than I don't know and the following mention of a need for a solution to feel validation is that knowledge about science probably shouldn't be generalized with the human condition. One weighs in factors of emotion and the other is based on hard evidence. As I've freely admitted, I am in no way an earth scientist. However, I support many, many earth scientists in my job. I support the software they use to do sub-surface horizontal drilling. I support the data they use to correlate and execute drilling decisions. I support connectivity of those tools all the way to the drillsites. I'm an IT guy, that works very closely with earth science guys. In the nature of that relationship alone, I've learned a lot about how we get oil from the ground. By that experience I have, which by no means makes me an expert, and by what I've heard on TV and read, is how I have formed my opinion, and if I seem more sure of myself than I should, its only because I have some relative experience in the industry helping me formulate my position, it's not 100% media based. I've sat in on lectures by earth scientists teaching IT guys about reservoir dynamics, horizontal drilling, rock formations etc etc, because the more we understand what they do, the better we can do our jobs to help them. So, while I'm not an expert, I'm working around that industry every day. You can probably justifiably say that creates bias, but I don't look at it that way. I think it helps me understand and form my own opinions on the topic. I think its obvious by my posts that I'm not a "Drill baby drill" guy. I try to always look at things holistically.

Naturally, I could be misplacing my position. I know there is always a chance relief wells may not work, but out of whats been tried, it probably should have gotten more support, because of all the idea's that have been tried, it seems to be the one that would have the greatest guaranteed success rate, but given that it's 5000 feet under water, obviously at a much higher risk, and in an uncontrolled environment.

If they had known good ideas that have succeeded in deep water, of course, they should have tried those first, but there was open admission that top kills were never done in 5K feet of water. This is why I do cling to my position. It may not work, but I think it has the best chances.

For me its not about bias, and being angry at BP or the Fed. Its about stopping the haemorrhaging by any and all means known and necessary. I don't necessarily think the order of execution has promoted that idea in my opinion.

[the8thstar]

As long as we burn oil in thermal plants to make electricity, as long as we use gas in our cars to go and do what we must, as long as we rely on oil-based plastic and polymers... this will continue. And accidents will happen. It happened to BP, but it could have happened just the same to Total, Lukoil, Exxon.

As part of the lower middle-class I can say in all honesty that I have no clue as how to change the trend of things, because I don't have the money to buy a green car, I don't have the luxury of setting the price of the electricity or the gas I pay. And finally, I have a family to feed -- and that is the most important thing on my agenda. So I will continue living like I did before... because I have no other choice.

And if you take the hundred of millions of people in my situation you'll get a better idea why things aren't gonna change anytime soon. Make no mistake: we are all responsible for what happened. But no one is guilty.

[wilee-nilee]

I hear you, and I think for the most part we are definitely on the same page regarding just about everything you pointed out here.

The only thing I may add to your comment about siding with anything other than I don't know and the following mention of a need for a solution to feel validation is that knowledge about science probably shouldn't be generalized with the human condition. One weighs in factors of emotion and the other is based on hard evidence. As I've freely admitted, I am in no way an earth scientist. However, I support many, many earth scientists in my job. I support the software they use to do sub-surface horizontal drilling. I support the data they use to correlate and execute drilling decisions. I support connectivity of those tools all the way to the drillsites. I'm an IT guy, that works very closely with earth science guys. In the nature of that relationship alone, I've learned a lot about how we get oil from the ground. By that experience I have, which by no means makes me an expert, and by what I've heard on TV and read, is how I have formed my opinion, and if I seem more sure of myself than I should, its only because I have some relative experience in the industry helping me formulate my position, it's not 100% media based. I've sat in on lectures by earth scientists teaching IT guys about reservoir dynamics, horizontal drilling, rock formations etc etc, because the more we understand what they do, the better we can do our jobs to help them.

Naturally, I could be misplacing my position. I know there is always a chance relief wells may not work, but out of whats been tried, it probably should have gotten more support, because of all the idea's that have been tried, it seems to be the one that would have the greatest guaranteed success rate, but given that it's 5000 feet under water, obviously at a much higher risk, and in an uncontrolled environment.

If they had known good ideas that have succeeded in deep water, of course, they should have tried those first, but there was open admission that top kills were never done in 5K feet of water. This is why I do cling to my position. It may not work, but I think it has the best chances.

For me its not about bias, and being angry at BP or the Fed. Its about stopping the haemorrhaging by any and all means known and necessary. I don't necessarily think the order of execution has promoted that idea in my opinion.

Well said again. Some of the problems with hard or soft science, is that it is supported nowadays by using the scientific method or inquiry. Which is a good thing, but it provides a hypothesis that, can be questioned with further research done with the same methodology. So hardly any scientist will claim to have any specific knowledge if they are really using this method, it is a hypothesis that is supported with what we know now that is statistically shown with enough research.

Now if you read any peer reviewed empirical study they show here is what we have found, and here is how we found it and here are the weaknesses in the research.

I think the general public including myself want concrete answers to things, but this concrete answer is flawed generally, I think that is where we have to include the soft sciences of research on the way we perceive things. This area is a difficult one to get any true data that is why double blind studies are done. And why the use of fmri and pet scanners are used to in this area. Even the hard science of Neurology basically has concluded that we are at about the 1% level of understanding at this point, they really don't know the full chemistry of the brain and how it all really works. I think this 1% can be assumed across the the whole science field in a general way. I think the only people who are even close are the physicists that work with the atom smashers, and they will be the first to say we don't have a clue other then to hypothesize then smash the protons together or which ever atom particle they are using to see if the results fit the theory.

[toupeiro]

Make no mistake: we are all responsible for what happened. But no one is guilty.

These remarks are true, but must be reserved for small, hopefully pivotal, points in time. You cannot continuously ring that bell year after year. I grew up pretty poor, watched my mom and dad struggle hard to keep a roof over the heads of myself and my three older sisters. There is public transportation, (which I used to use for school when I was old enough) which if more people used, would lessen the amount of cars on the road. You can seed small amounts of vegetables and fruits that may be capable of growing in an indoor or small patio environment if you do not have room for a garden, which if done in quantity, reduces the carbon footprint of produce transportation. There are always small things everyone can make the choice to do, that do not cost lots of money. In fact, some of those things can save you money. Statements like this can be reserved for the revelatory incidents like this one we're experiencing, where the cost of our addiction is directly tangible, but if that really matters to us, then change must happen, no matter how small, any change is good.

[K.Mandla]

Perhaps I am an idealist, but I fail to see why boycotting one oil company in favor of another really solves the overarching issues of oil addiction and pollution.

Again personally, I think the real impact of this mishap has only begun. The gulf ecology has an importance far beyond just that one area of the planet.

[BoneKracker]

It destroys the properties of their feathers, making them unable to to take flight, or even stay afloat properly.
Of course, it's poisonous too.

You know what's worse for a bird than oil? Living in a teeny-tiny cage two feet across with a dozen other birds for its entire short, pointless life, then having it's head chopped off before going through a mechanical separator that shreads all its soft parts from the bone so that fat, greedy children can devour them in the form of "McNuggets". And it's not just bad for "a" bird -- it's bad for billions of birds.

It's pretty hypocritical of us to whine about a few thousand birds suffering when we routinely grow and harvest birds (and livestock too) by the billions as though they were vast fields of some unfeeling crop of plants.

Also, the truth is that the biosphere is phenomenally robust and adaptive -- it is not really threatened by humans at all in the big picture view. Humans are a only threat to the present batch of species inhabiting the Earth (including humans), but we are no threat to life itself. The land around Chernobyl, for example, is already teeming with life.

For example, "Global Warming" is no threat to life. Life thrived during past "Greenhouse Earth" periods (in fact, the remnants of that abundance is where most of our fossil fuel comes from now). The real threat is that the present interglacial warm period, which is due to end any time, will not be extended by anthropogenic global warming, and the Earth will descend back into glaciation to finish out the rest of the Quaternary Ice Age as a snowball, with only limited pockets of life. Sure -- global warming is a threat to man. But since Man is actually a blight on the Earth and all its other life forms, I have a hard time thinking that's a problem. Maybe the best thing that could happen would be something that wipes out about 70% of the human population and destroys its industrial technology.

Life will go on long after we are gone. Just like it goes on now without the other 99.9999 of all species that are extinct. We need to stop worrying about the "Earth" and start worrying about the long-term survival of our own species and what we are doing to endanger it (such as breeding like rats).

[samjh]

It appears the blowout was broken anyway and that BP knew this and the computers running it were borked as well.

The well had an electrically blow-out preventer, as is required for all deep-sea oil wells in the US. But sometimes an acoustically-triggered BOP is also required as a back-up, and this is the case for some countries like Brazil.

No-one knows whether BP's BOP was actually broken at the time of the explosion. It was last inspected in 2005 as broken, but that's not to say it was fixed during the five-year period since then. X-ray images showed that the BOP's valves are at least partially-closed, whether due to automatic actuation at the time of the explosion, or manual actuation via submersible robot afterward (which was apparently a failed operation anyway).

The MMS had agreed with BP's environmental assessment that an oil spill was unlikely at that depth.

The problem with this is that both the rig operator and the government thought it appropriate to allow drilling at such depth when the technology to handle a massive spill in such conditions do not yet exist or are untested.

Now Chevron Canada is drilling a 2600m deep-sea oil well off the coast of Newfoundland.

[steveneddy]

so keep driving your cars and cooking with gas and buying plastic products and wanting everything to have a plastic wrapper like bread - plastic cases for your precious computers - plastic safety glass in your automobile - everything uses something from the petroleum industry in this modern age -

petroleum products are everywhere - you can't change that

this is reality - get used to it

if YOU don't like it - think of another way to propel cars, wrap foods, replace plastics and cooking food without destroying anything

why don't YOU go down to the coast and help with the clean up?

POINT - the animals will survive, the coast will clean itself over time and everything will be OK is a couple of years or less - stop freaking out and do something yourself and please stop complaining about it because I'm really sick of listening to a bunch of people moan and complain about something that they won't do anything about themselves.

bring on the flame war!

I'll probably get banned or written up again for this but if the rest of the forums can complain about one company that made a mistake, I can complain about those who don't seem to be able to see the forest for the trees.

[steveneddy]

You know what's worse for a bird than oil? Living in a teeny-tiny cage two feet across with a dozen other birds for its entire short, pointless life, then having it's head chopped off before going through a mechanical separator that shreads all its soft parts from the bone so that fat, greedy children can devour them in the form of "McNuggets". And it's not just bad for "a" bird -- it's bad for billions of birds.

It's pretty hypocritical of us to whine about a few thousand birds suffering when we routinely grow and harvest birds (and livestock too) by the billions as though they were vast fields of some unfeeling crop of plants.

Also, the truth is that the biosphere is phenomenally robust and adaptive -- it is not really threatened by humans at all in the big picture view. Humans are a only threat to the present batch of species inhabiting the Earth (including humans), but we are no threat to life itself. The land around Chernobyl, for example, is already teeming with life.

For example, "Global Warming" is no threat to life. Life thrived during past "Greenhouse Earth" periods (in fact, the remnants of that abundance is where most of our fossil fuel comes from now). The real threat is that the present interglacial warm period, which is due to end any time, will not be extended by anthropogenic global warming, and the Earth will descend back into glaciation to finish out the rest of the Quaternary Ice Age as a snowball, with only limited pockets of life. Sure -- global warming is a threat to man. But since Man is actually a blight on the Earth and all its other life forms, I have a hard time thinking that's a problem. Maybe the best thing that could happen would be something that wipes out about 70% of the human population and destroys its industrial technology.

Life will go on long after we are gone. Just like it goes on now without the other 99.9999 of all species that are extinct. We need to stop worrying about the "Earth" and start worrying about the long-term survival of our own species and what we are doing to endanger it (such as breeding like rats).

Awwww - so you don't eat? awwww

[whiskeylover]

POINT - the animals will survive, the coast will clean itself over time and everything will be OK is a couple of years or less - stop freaking out and do something yourself and please stop complaining about it because I'm really sick of listening to a bunch of people moan and complain about something that they won't do anything about themselves.

Couple of year? Are you kidding me? I heard a few days ago that the impact could be felt for as long as a hundred years.

[Dayofswords]

so keep driving your cars and cooking with gas and buying plastic products and wanting everything to have a plastic wrapper like bread - plastic cases for your precious computers - plastic safety glass in your automobile - everything uses something from the petroleum industry in this modern age -

petroleum products are everywhere - you can't change that

this is reality - get used to it
dependency on one resource is never a good idea, this is why this has to be changed, saying this is the way it will always be is naive at best

if YOU don't like it - think of another way to propel cars, wrap foods, replace plastics and cooking food without destroying anything
sun chips has a new bag made from plants, that stuff seems pretty good replacement for a couple of things
http://www.sunchips.com/healthier_planet.shtml?s=content_compostable_packa ging


why don't YOU go down to the coast and help with the clean up?
5000 miles away, no way to afford the trip, and i dont see you doing anything

POINT - the animals will survive, the coast will clean itself over time and everything will be OK is a couple of years or less
[citation needed] if by OK you mean the environmental impact has slowed and a few less animals are dieing from one company, then sure

bring on the flame war!
WW3 will be over the last barrel huh?


I'll probably get banned or written up again for this but if the rest of the forums can complain about one company that made a mistake, I can complain about those who don't seem to be able to see the forest for the trees.
last time oil came up i think you killed the thread :P

[Lensman]

As long as we burn oil in thermal plants to make electricity, as long as we use gas in our cars to go and do what we must, as long as we rely on oil-based plastic and polymers... this will continue. And accidents will happen. It happened to BP, but it could have happened just the same to Total, Lukoil, Exxon.

As part of the lower middle-class I can say in all honesty that I have no clue as how to change the trend of things, because I don't have the money to buy a green car, I don't have the luxury of setting the price of the electricity or the gas I pay. And finally, I have a family to feed -- and that is the most important thing on my agenda. So I will continue living like I did before... because I have no other choice.

And if you take the hundred of millions of people in my situation you'll get a better idea why things aren't gonna change anytime soon. Make no mistake: we are all responsible for what happened. But no one is guilty.

A very astute post and very true.

[steveneddy]

[QUOTE=Dayofswords;9417391]


5000 miles away, no way to afford the trip, and i dont see you doing anything

I just returned from Pensacola Beach where we assisted in the clean up of the Gulf facing beach with the first tarballs - it was gross and smelly but we did our part while we were there

find somewhere who is sponsoring a clean up on the gulf and send money - write the city counsel of Gulf Breeze or Pensacola Beach and ask them where you can send money to help with the clean up efforts


last time oil came up I think you killed the thread :P

So? I kill lots of threads here - lol

:popcorn:

[lisati]

It's a mess. I'm sure that many of the forum regulars would help sort things out if they could.

[dragos240]

It's a mess. I'm sure that many of the forum regulars would help sort things out if they could.

I was thinking you're post said "Closed for review."

[BoneKracker]

Awwww - so you don't eat? awwww

You missed my point.

I didn't say I don't eat. I said I don't whine about a few birds trapped in oil while I'm sitting on my fat but in front of my TV and munching on my Chicken McNuggets or bucket of KFC.

Get it?

[coolbrook]

Why lock the other BP thread?

"Everything is politics." - Al Gore

[dragos240]

In before the lock. :)

[RiceMonster]

I would imagine that the only way this thing will get fixed will be if they drill relief wells. However, even if they began drilling those now, it'd be months before they're finished.

They've already started drilling 2 relief wells, and they're expecting them to be finished in august.

[whiskeylover]

A legal primer on the spill.
http://money.cnn.com/2010/06/04/news/companies/bp_legal.fortune/index.htm?hpt=T2

[BoneKracker]

Isn't it amazing how helpless we are, supposed masters of the Earth, just a few feet too low or high?

We travel miles laterally without thinking about it (beer run!). Yet we can't survive a mile down or ten miles up.

We have dubbed ourselves masters of a planet, but we can't even survive outside an eggshell-thick layer of the air around it. And, if the temperature or pressure of our tiny comfort zone changed by a few percent, we'd all be doing the dying cockroach. Some masters.

[sdowney717]

http://www.slate.com/id/2253193

firefighters might just have sunk the rig.
I think they will bring it back up to investigate what happened.
If it had not sunk, the riser would have stayed intact and oil would have burned at the surface until they shut it off.


So what happened? The fireboat crews tried to extinguish the flames as quickly as possible so they might board the oil rig to search for survivors and contain the spill. In the end, though, their efforts to battle the fire may have made the situation worse. By pouring hundreds of thousands of gallons of water and flame-retardant foam onto the rig, it's possible that the fireboats helped sink the Deepwater Horizon.

Will people learn from the past, they cite the Normandy.

[john_spiral]

Hopefully we see a monumental effort from BP to clean up the mess.

[samjh]

Isn't it amazing how helpless we are, supposed masters of the Earth, just a few feet too low or high?

We travel miles laterally without thinking about it (beer run!). Yet we can't survive a mile down or ten miles up.

We have dubbed ourselves masters of a planet, but we can't even survive outside an eggshell-thick layer of the air around it. And, if the temperature or pressure of our tiny comfort zone changed by a few percent, we'd all be doing the dying cockroach. Some masters.

The only people who think we're masters of the Earth are either deluded or ignorant.

Humans are finite beings with finite lives, finite strength, finite capacity for knowledge and thought. We can't even master ourselves!

[mmix]

this is different case, but same effect to the sea.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Korea_oil_spill

Edit:
Korean wikipedia
http://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007%EB%85%84_%EC%84%9C%ED%95%B4%EC%95%88_%EC%9B%9 0%EC%9C%A0_%EC%9C%A0%EC%B6%9C_%EC%82%AC%EA%B3%A0

[whiskeylover]

Day 50 begins

[SeePU]

So, BP, this multi-billion dollar company neglects responsibility and safety like this?!? And people here are suggesting we should do something about it?!? OMG! Can people be this stupid?!?

BP is liable plain and simple and it's conceivable this entire situation was practically planned. Maybe not outright intentional but the scenario was put in place. New 'Green Energies' are going to be another billion-dollar industry and what better way to say, 'screw it' to the environment and push through 'green energy' legislation. Furthermore, these bastards will state it was an unfortunate 'accident' but there won't be no charges. They'll assure they're doing everything they can and lie about the 'positive' improvements or how their efforts are gradually working towards some benefit that is never defined. They'll sugarcoat and LIE so you won't get the true story or how serious it is.

Governments can use this to push through 'eco-green taxes' and punish working people rather than these corporations who caused this disaster.

I suppose readers of this post will accuse of being conspiratorial but when you take a long serious look at the big picture, you will realize anything can happen. Politicians and these Corporate people don't give a BLEEP BLEEP about the environment and people so neglecting the oil machinery is not a big deal when billion dollars can be waiting with something else.

[Breambutt]

Half a year from now Steve Jobs is to present the new iFilter that magically dissipated the oil from the ocean. Credit where credit is due, and even more iPhones and Pads will be sold.

[RiceMonster]

BP is liable plain and simple and it's conceivable this entire situation was practically planned. Maybe not outright intentional but the scenario was put in place. New 'Green Energies' are going to be another billion-dollar industry and what better way to say, 'screw it' to the environment and push through 'green energy' legislation.

Absurd. This incident is costing BP over 1 billion dollars, damaging their reputation, and lowering their stock. Each barrel leaked into the ocean is a barrel they cannot sell. Why would they do that intentionally?

[SeePU]

Absurd. This indicent is costing BP over 1 billion dollars, damaging their reputation, and lowering their stock. Each barrel leaked into the ocean is a barrel they cannot sell. Why would they do that intentionally?Maybe their stock was already going to fall... who knows... maybe they were paid off... maybe it's just a few in the 'BP network' involved and not all of them.

When the screwup is this major and they had all kinds of critiques that they needed to boost their safeguards, you wonder if someone gains. You're drilling into the ocean, when the damn Exxon Valdez has already happened... you might be a bit more careful?!?

[BoneKracker]

Day 50 begins

Never fear. President Obama was just on TV in an "interview" with Matt Lauer which he spent the entirety of telling America what a great job he's doing responding to the oil leak. So there's nothing to worry about -- we're in good hands.

[whiskeylover]

Never fear. President Obama was just on TV in an "interview" with Matt Lauer which he spent the entirety of telling America what a great job he's doing responding to the oil leak. So there's nothing to worry about -- we're in good hands.

I just resisted the urge to go all Politicsy with the reply : )

[BoneKracker]

I just resisted the urge to go all Politicsy with the reply : )
:lol:

Do you feel like you're about to blow a gasket? :p

[whiskeylover]

:lol:

Do you feel like you're about to blow a gasket? :p

Hehe, yeah.

But I digress. Does anyone thing we should light the whole thing up and have a giant barbecue?

[RiceMonster]

Hehe, yeah.

But I digress. Does anyone thing we should light the whole thing up and have a giant barbecue?

Only if you're making hot dogs.

[K. Hendrik]

Someone should really ask Chuck Norris for help

[KiwiNZ]

Maybe their stock was already going to fall... who knows... maybe they were paid off... maybe it's just a few in the 'BP network' involved and not all of them.

When the screwup is this major and they had all kinds of critiques that they needed to boost their safeguards, you wonder if someone gains. You're drilling into the ocean, when the damn Exxon Valdez has already happened... you might be a bit more careful?!?

cue the conspiracies in 3-2-1-

[SeePU]

cue the conspiracies in 3-2-1-Well, Haliburton is connected to BP and they've never been involved in any controversial stuff, right?

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread567946/pg1

[RiceMonster]

Well, Haliburton is connected to BP and they've never been involved in any controversial stuff, right?

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread567946/pg1

That's one credible source you've got there!

[KiwiNZ]

Well, Haliburton is connected to BP and they've never been involved in any controversial stuff, right?

I guess they detonated their own Rig to lose Billions

Iceland blew their own Volcano to ruin the Airline industry to punish the UK for the Cod War

South America triggered the Earth Quakes

Its all done by the Masons :wink:

[fatality_uk]

Its all done by the Masons :wink:

You know I KNEW it :p

[doas777]

I'm just as mortified and upset as the next guy about accidents like this. A similar thing happened in Wales when I wad a kid, it was devastating.

But I don't understand this "LET'S HATE THEM!!!" attitude. This is a tragedy, not a blame war.

in capitalist societies you are supposed to "vote with your buck", and the easiest way to coordinate that phenomona (since just you voting is a pretty meaningless activity) is to rally folks around a cause. in the end, this is the only recourse when dealing with international megacorps.

[SeePU]

That's one credible source you've got there!What's a credible source to you, then?

Forget it, don't bother. No need to discuss when it's obvious some people are already brainwashed.

Okay, decide based on what your TV media tells you... like sheep. :sad:

Besides, I'm just saying *I'm open* to the idea that something fishy went on.... not saying it's fact. Unlike you and others, I am not closed-minded or conditioned to think a certain way (aka based on whatever the accepted media outlet tells me, what ABC/NBC etc. news decide) I guess you have to believe that people are greedy and realize money talks or you'll just go with the rosy vision of the world where everything is put in place for you.

[McRat]

The only reason Haliburton is more evil than most businesses is because an unpopular politician used to work for them.

When you hire employees, you should make them sign a contract that they will never enter politics.


OK, that was HUMOR. I don't need a lecture how pre-employment contracts can't exclude running for office.

[sydbat]

What's a credible source to you, then?

Forget it, don't bother. No need to discuss when it's obvious some people are already brainwashed.

Okay, decide based on what your TV media tells you... like sheep. :sad:

Besides, I'm just saying *I'm open* to the idea that something fishy went on.... not saying it's fact. Unlike you and others, I am not closed-minded or conditioned to think a certain way (aka based on whatever the accepted media outlet tells me, what ABC/NBC etc. news decide) I guess you have to believe that people are greedy and realize money talks or you'll just go with the rosy vision of the world where everything is put in place for you.Can you tell me what brand of tin foil you use? Will it also keep Major League Baseball from reading my thoughts?

[McRat]

Can you tell me what brand of tin foil you use? Will it also keep Major League Baseball from reading my thoughts?

Tin foil hats are often ineffective. Most people do not know the shiny side goes out, so they do not work.

[sydbat]

Tin foil hats are often ineffective. Most people do not know the shiny side goes out, so they do not work.Damn! I knew I was doing something wrong...

[Ebere]

Iceland blew their own Volcano to ruin the Airline industry to punish the UK for the Cod War

The Cod War.

Is that a war of the fishes, or of the jockstraps ?

;)

[KiwiNZ]

The Cod War.

Is that a war of the fishes, or of the jockstraps ?

;)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cod_war

"The Cod Wars, also called the Iceland Cod Wars (Icelandic: Þorskastríðin, "the cod war", or Landhelgisstríðin, "the war for the territorial waters"[1]), were a series of confrontations in the 1950s and 1970s between the United Kingdom and Iceland regarding fishing rights in the North Atlantic.
In 1972, Iceland unilaterally declared an Exclusive Economic Zone extending beyond its territorial waters, before announcing plans to reduce overfishing. It policed its quota system with the coast guard, leading to a series of net-cutting incidents with British trawlers that fished the areas. As a result, a fleet of Royal Naval warships and tug-boats were employed to act as a deterrent against any future harassment of British fishing crews by the Icelandic craft. The conflict involved several cases of vessels ramming each other.
The dispute ended in 1976 after Iceland threatened to close a major NATO base in retaliation for Britain's deployment of naval vessels within the disputed 200 nautical mile (370 km) limit. The British government conceded, and agreed that after 1 December 1976 British vessels would not fish within the previously disputed area.[2]"

[Ebere]

Far out !

:)

[whiskeylover]

While we're on-topic, I want to add how much free wifi (http://www.mbta.com/riding_the_t/wifi/) on public transportation sucks.

[Mike128]

You guys realize that BP were in a limited liability contract with the USA in case of exactly this happening? They've also already expended more than the contract stipulated they had to in case of such an occurrence, some $1.25bn where as they were only liable to pay $75million before it became the US government's problem. In addition to this the US is trying to reword the leases they have with all off shore drillers to increase liablity, pretty much breaking every contract they have so that they can keep painting BP as the one's in the wrong And whilst we're at it it may be called "British Petroleum" but has been solely in the hands of Americans for years, it's an American problem caused by Americans drilling oil for America. Stirling work as always.

[doas777]

The only reason Haliburton is more evil than most businesses is because an unpopular politician used to work for them.
no, thats just what made them famous. their actions made them evil.

[toupeiro]

You guys realize that BP were in a limited liability contract with the USA in case of exactly this happening? They've also already expended more than the contract stipulated they had to in case of such an occurrence, some $1.25bn where as they were only liable to pay $75million before it became the US government's problem. In addition to this the US is trying to reword the leases they have with all off shore drillers to increase liablity, pretty much breaking every contract they have so that they can keep painting BP as the one's in the wrong And whilst we're at it it may be called "British Petroleum" but has been solely in the hands of Americans for years, it's an American problem caused by Americans drilling oil for America. Stirling work as always.

Actually, that limited liability contract only holds if there was no negligent action that caused the spill, which right now, all known evidence points to there being negligence by BP's own investigation. Therefore, BP is not protected by that contract. There is a third party non-partisan investigation also being conducted on both the cause of the accident and the long term effects of the accident. That investigation is also revealing the same evidence.

The rest of your comments obviously lack so much actual fact that I won't even bother to comment on them.

[SeePU]

I didn't mean to insult anyone personally, btw. I don't trust the media and think we all should be suspicious of it. Call me a conspiracy nut, I don't care. I've been called worse.

I think people are greedy but these same people who have power are also smart, clever and are capable of elaborate schemes so nothing is surprising. If I think someone is narrow-minded or there's a sheepish mentality, I will say it but I am not trying to be a troll or insult everyone even though stating that implies an insult. It is just frustrating when we're powerless to do anything about these corporations like BP that have these other connections which go unpunished and are unaccountable. That's all I was trying to say.

Yeah, I'm a nutjob. I'd rather be called this and other names than be fooled or manipulated by the media and politicians. But, if there's rules to follow, I hope I'm not singled out because my views are as such and not the popular perspective.

[KiwiNZ]

I didn't mean to insult anyone personally, btw. I don't trust the media and think we all should be suspicious of it. Call me a conspiracy nut, I don't care. I've been called worse.

I think people are greedy but these same people who have power are also smart, clever and are capable of elaborate schemes so nothing is surprising. If I think someone is narrow-minded or there's a sheepish mentality, I will say it but I am not trying to be a troll or insult everyone even though stating that implies an insult. It is just frustrating when we're powerless to do anything about these corporations like BP that have these other connections which go unpunished and are unaccountable. That's all I was trying to say.

Yeah, I'm a nutjob. I'd rather be called this and other names than be fooled or manipulated by the media and politicians. But, if there's rules to follow, I hope I'm not singled out because my views are as such and not the popular perspective.

Its cool , no harm done. We all get angry when things like this happen. With all the Billions these oil companies make they need to make better contingency plans for disasters.

[toupeiro]

Its cool , no harm done. We all get angry when things like this happen. With all the Billions these oil companies make they need to make better contingency plans for disasters.

I've worked for 3 big ones. Some of them are better than others at doing this. Where I work currently, safety and safe practices are enforced and reinforced in almost every crevace of that company.. From production field and deep water operations, to using a box cutter. (No, I am not joking). I'm not saying this to imply that they're infoulable, but I really believe from top to bottom, that they really truly try to make as many efforts as possible, sparing no expense that I known of thus far, to do things safely. They may not always be able to guarantee success in this, no matter how safe they try to make the environment, but there is a safety culture there in practice by everyone working there unlike anywhere else I've experienced. I wish all companies, oil or not, displayed that much concern in day to day safe operations.

In situations like this, even with aide from other oil companies, which is happening, there are windows of time to act, and there are windows of time to prepare. The more politics that gets in between those windows of time, the worse it is exponentially. At this stage in the effort, we're obviously passed any sort of prevention identification towards this problem (not that preventative practices won't be identified, which I know they will) and quick fixes have proven inadequate from any company or practice. The next steps (which in my opinion should have been the first, at least in tandem with others), will take more prep time to make sure they are executed effectively, but I think they provide a higher proven success rate, just not a fast or riskless one. Again, not trying to justify anything, just calling it like I see it.

[BoneKracker]

I've worked for 3 big ones. Some of them are better than others at doing this. However, in situations like this, even with aide from other oil companies, which is happening, there are windows of time to act, and there are windows of time to prepare. The more politics that gets in between those windows of time, the worse it is exponentially.

I just knew Windows had to figure into this somehow!

[toupeiro]

I just knew Windows had to figure into this somehow!

lol!

[wilee-nilee]

I've worked for 3 big ones. Some of them are better than others at doing this. Where I work currently, safety and safe practices are enforced and reinforced in almost every crevace of that company.. From production field and deep water operations, to using a box cutter. (No, I am not joking). I'm not saying this to imply that they're infoulable, but I really believe from top to bottom, that they really truly try to make as many efforts as possible, sparing no expense that I known of thus far, to do things safely. They may not always be able to guarantee success in this, no matter how safe they try to make the environment, but there is a safety culture there in practice by everyone working there unlike anywhere else I've experienced. I wish all companies, oil or not, displayed that much concern in day to day safe operations.

In situations like this, even with aide from other oil companies, which is happening, there are windows of time to act, and there are windows of time to prepare. The more politics that gets in between those windows of time, the worse it is exponentially. At this stage in the effort, we're obviously passed any sort of prevention identification towards this problem (not that preventative practices won't be identified, which I know they will) and quick fixes have proven inadequate from any company or practice. The next steps (which in my opinion should have been the first, at least in tandem with others), will take more prep time to make sure they are executed effectively, but I think they provide a higher proven success rate, just not a fast or riskless one. Again, not trying to justify anything, just calling it like I see it.

This makes sense, in that the industry is a profitable one and safety would be part of insuring that. It is rather amazing that there aren't more problems then there have been. But some problems like in Nigeria, have not been part of the regular news, like many other areas of human suffering and degradation of the biosphere.

[whiskeylover]

Don't these companies have insurance for just this kind of a scenario?

[BoneKracker]

Don't these companies have insurance for just this kind of a scenario?

Yeah, from AIG and friends.

I smell bailout...

[mmix]

Day 51 begins

[quirkification]

:evil::evil::evil::evil:

I NEVER EVEN GOT TO SEE THE GULF

Vacation to an oil slick...I'll pass.

:-({|=[-X[-X[-X

[BoneKracker]

Day 51 begins

"Day 51". Reminds me of the Iran Hostage Crisis. Can't wait to get to "Day 444". Not that any of you are old enough to remember that... :p

Actually, this reminds me of 3 Mile Island and Love Canal.

It's Jimmy Carter deja vu all over again...

[Johnsie]

I like BP and yes mistakes were made, but they seem to be the only people doing anything about it. The government is powerless and is trying to show that it can 'kick-a$$' but really there is nothing they can do about the situation. Once again we're seeing a weak US government that is incapable of dealing with a disaster. All they seem to be capable of doing is talking and trying to look tough. Finger pointing wont solve the problem.

I think BP should sell their assets in the US and concentrate on China, Brazil and India. If this happens then oil prices will rise in the US and the developing nations will be able to compete better and bring themselves out of poverty. It's a win-win situation for the rest of the world.

[KiwiNZ]

Political content is now to a point where closure is prudent.