Foxconn - a reason to boycott Apple, Dell, HP, Intel, and a whole slew of companies

[user1397]

http://gizmodo.com/5542527/undercover-report-from-foxconns-hell-factory

Like...seriously?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn

http://www.foxconn.com/

[McRat]

Wow. 330,000 employees at one facility. It boggles the mind.

[mobilediesel]

http://gizmodo.com/5542527/undercover-report-from-foxconns-hell-factory

Like...seriously?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn

http://www.foxconn.com/

If Apple and other computer manufacturers had their stuff built in the United States and new iPod would cost $8,000 and a new Macbook would probably cost $18,000 plus a kidney.

[McRat]

Not really. Labor costs are one of the smallest costs in modern manufacturing. Under 10% for most goods.

But as far as boycotting companies for using a Chinese mfr that works their employees 60 hours a week?

That was normal for most the western world until about 1930. It still is normal in some industries in the west. Computer Programmers for one.

And many of the current Chinese Government officials were around when tens of millions of innocent Chinese were executed in the cultural revolution. So by those standards, the Chinese are doing much, much better.

[rockstarrhk]

Foxconn suicide count now at 10 as of this morning - http://thedarkside.hk/2010/05/27/hidden-camera-footage-may-reveal-truth-about-foxconn-deaths/

[Jose Catre-Vandis]

Hmmm

UK Statistics Office show that the male suicide rate in 2008 for the whole country was 15 per 100,000, for women 5 per 100,000.

So if I went to work at Foxconn I would, statistically, be less likely to commit suicide than if I stay in the UK.

Statistics, damn lies and all that.......

[smellyman]

Hmmm

UK Statistics Office show that the male suicide rate in 2008 for the whole country was 15 per 100,000, for women 5 per 100,000.

So if I went to work at Foxconn I would, statistically, be less likely to commit suicide than if I stay in the UK.

Statistics, damn lies and all that.......

Well that is interesting....

[kerry_s]

crap, my computers a foxconn! cost me $89.00, sad to hear it might have cost someone a finger. if i weren't so broke i'd torch it. :mad:

the reality is there lucky to have any kind of job at all, with that many people in 1 place, any kind of work no matter how bad, is still good. i'm sure they could trim the workforce down to a more manageable size, but that would mean more unemployed. sad i know, but even i would stand in a pile of s**t for 60 hours to get food on the table, it's just the way it is. :(

[iponeverything]

Hmmm

UK Statistics Office show that the male suicide rate in 2008 for the whole country was 15 per 100,000, for women 5 per 100,000.

So if I went to work at Foxconn I would, statistically, be less likely to commit suicide than if I stay in the UK.

Statistics, damn lies and all that.......

well the UK is pretty depressing, with the rain and all ;)

[Phrea]

Now I feel bad for having had a Foxconn mainboard... :(
I am poor, it was cheap, I went for it.

[mickie.kext]

Hmmm

UK Statistics Office show that the male suicide rate in 2008 for the whole country was 15 per 100,000, for women 5 per 100,000.

So if I went to work at Foxconn I would, statistically, be less likely to commit suicide than if I stay in the UK.

Statistics, damn lies and all that.......

Well with statistics you can prove anything. IBM has 400k employees, how many IBMers whacked themselves? If it is less that Foxconn, it means that Foxconn is more depressing place to work than IBM... who would have guess that?


On topic. Foxconn management was about to rectify some issues last year, but that included reducing worktime and ultimately higher manufacturing prices, so nice US companies said: "do that and we are leaving." Foxconn complained but gave up on the idea eventually and continued exploiting workers like there is no tomorrow.

[bigseb]

Shocking

:(

[Zoot7]

Foxconn management was about to rectify some issues last year, but that included reducing worktime and ultimately higher manufacturing prices, so nice US companies said: "do that and we are leaving." Foxconn complained but gave up on the idea eventually and continued exploiting workers like there is no tomorrow.
All companies will exploit unskilled workers like there's no tomorrow if they can get away with it. Why do you think many big companies started moving their manafacturing plants out into developing countries? All they care about is profit, and they'll do whatever they can to get it. Mind you in no way does that justify having working conditions so bad that people comitt sucide as a result. See this is why you go and get yourself a decent qualification so if a company does indeed try that, you can tell them where to go.

Honestly reading that Gizmodo article describes the majority of factory work. - Dull drab repetitive work, Long hours, few holidays etc. Social life effected by such hours, hard to form a relationship with a significant other etc.

I did factory work myself back a few years for a summer job. 12 hour shifts, day and night with extremely repetative work that would bore anyone to tears. What was sad though was that you'd people that were there for 10, even 20 years doing it and none of them had any hope of getting anything better. Many of them that were married with family met their wives/husbands as work colleagues, because of the extremely anti-social hours. Personally I'd rather jam forks in my eyes than work shift work in a factory doing such work for the rest of my life.

[dragos240]

How evil.

[Johnsie]

There's not really alot you can do about this kind of thing. You computer has hundreds of components in it and you have no idea where they came from.

It's the same when buy clothes. You have no idea if what you are buying came from a sweatshop.

Sadly that's just the way the world works. All we can to is encourage countries like China go pass laws that give rights to workers.

The downside to that is that prices will go up and technology production will be slowed down.

[cprofitt]

There's not really alot you can do about this kind of thing. You computer has hundreds of components in it and you have no idea where they came from.

It's the same when buy clothes. You have no idea if what you are buying came from a sweatshop.

Sadly that's just the way the world works. All we can to is encourage countries like China go pass laws that give rights to workers.

The downside to that is that prices will go up and technology production will be slowed down.

Or in some cases the prices could stay the same and companies could reduced profits.

Apple is one of the few companies that still makes good money off of their hardware -- the fact that they use one of the lowest price manufacturers and charge the most for their goods certainly doesn't paint a nice friendly picture.

[pwnst*r]

Blame Apple for suicides.

[Sporkman]

Not really. Labor costs are one of the smallest costs in modern manufacturing. Under 10% for most goods.

The savings probably comes from lax environmental & occupational safety laws.

[Johnsie]

Why are Apple products so expensive if they are being produced by the cheapest, cheapest labour?

[pwnst*r]

Why are Apple products so expensive if they are being produced by the cheapest, cheapest labour?

I'm pretty sure Foxconn employees don't design anything. That may be one reason.

[Dixon Bainbridge]

Why are Apple products so expensive if they are being produced by the cheapest, cheapest labour?

Is that a serious question?

[ELD]

Is that a serious question?

A lot of people, myself included wander that. His question i mean not yours

Apples prices are insane.

[Matthewthegreat]

Why are Apple products so expensive if they are being produced by the cheapest, cheapest labour?

Why make $239 per ipad if you could make $240 per ipad by not paying workers?

[user1397]

some of the responses in this thread make me have little faith in humanity...

[The Real Dave]

I doubt this will make many people boycott Foxconn. 95% of the CPU coolers I use are Foxconn.

That and the fact that, if I was to boycott every company with any link to people working in such conditions, I'd be naked, without computer, phone, car, and much much more.

We live our (comparitively) comfortable lives in a blissful ignorance of those who suffer for us to be happy.


And the sad bit is, that when it gets right down to it, most of us don't care.

[KiwiNZ]

For those sitting smug and saying tisk tisk Apple IBM , Dell etc etc about Foxconn , take a drive around your own Industrial areas and have a look inside some of your own Factories. Especially the Clothing Industry. I am sure you will be in for a surprise.

Now As for why Dell and co moved their productions to where it is , look in the mirror.

The western consumer demanded the product at ever decreasing prices at ever increasing features, they had cut their margins to the barest of minimums , therefore they needed to cut them drastically the only one left was labor cost , thus moving to the China's.

So don't blame just Dell,Apple IBM Foxconn , the blame is a lot wider.

[Merk42]

For those sitting smug and saying tisk tisk Apple IBM , Dell etc etc about Foxconn , take a drive around your own Industrial areas and have a look inside some of your own Factories. Especially the Clothing Industry. I am sure you will be in for a surprise.

Now As for why Dell and co moved their productions to where it is , look in the mirror.

The western consumer demanded the product at ever decreasing prices at ever increasing features, they had cut their margins to the barest of minimums , therefore they needed to cut them drastically the only one left was labor cost , thus moving to the China's.

So don't blame just Dell,Apple IBM Foxconn , the blame is a lot wider.
<sarcasm>
But but clearly the only reason is so the CEOs can swim around in money because they're all evil. Consumers aren't to blame, if the prices went up due to having manufacturing eleswhere people wouldn't complain or anything
</sarcasm>

[libssd]

I doubt this will make many people boycott Foxconn. 95% of the CPU coolers I use are Foxconn.

That and the fact that, if I was to boycott every company with any link to people working in such conditions, I'd be naked, without computer, phone, car, and much much more.

We live our (comparitively) comfortable lives in a blissful ignorance of those who suffer for us to be happy.

And the sad bit is, that when it gets right down to it, most of us don't care.
Unfortunately, I find nothing I can disagree with about your comments. Americans are (justifiably) upset about the oil blowout in the Gulf of Mexico, but by and large ignorant of the major blowouts that have been happening every year in Nigeria for more than a decade. At least the age of the SUV appears to be coming to an end.

[NMFTM]

That was normal for most the western world until about 1930. It still is normal in some industries in the west. Computer Programmers for one.
When I worked for the family business I did physical labor for about that many hours a week. I remember working one time for 11 or 12 hours without a lunch break.

[pwnst*r]

I remember working one time for 11 or 12 hours without a lunch break.

Lol

[jerenept]

LOL!!! You LOL'd at THAT!!

[McRat]

When I first started my own business, I worked 18 months without 1 day off. I worked Christmas and all other holidays.

Typical work week was 6am to 8pm M-F and 6am-Noon Sat/Sun. But sometimes it would be over 100 hours in a week if necessary. It took 7 years before I could work a 40 hour week.

You do what you got to do. Without those kinds of hours, I could not afford to buy the equipment and pay the bills.

60 hours is not "lifeless". 100 hours is though. You sleep, eat, work, repeat.

[Dixon Bainbridge]

Apples prices are insane.

A) They are a business. Businesses are in the business making money for their shareholders.

B) An item is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. People pay Apples prices, therefore they continue to price their items accordingly. If people refused to pay for their products at the prices Apple set then they would have to lower them.

C) All businesses will do whatever they can get away with before being pulled up on it. If that means exploitative businesses practices, then fine. Until they get caught or their is a public backlash, they will do nothing.

D) Companies lie all the time about their ethics.

Simples.

[kleskjr]

Another interesting story from foxconn: a girls is fired after a guy from uk buys an iphone with her picture.

http://hi.baidu.com/hugebear/blog/item/0caff738311d3cc4d56225b1.html

I think that this is even nice to buy a product and find a photo of the person has tested it

[EarlGrey167]

For those sitting smug and saying tisk tisk Apple IBM , Dell etc etc about Foxconn , take a drive around your own Industrial areas and have a look inside some of your own Factories. Especially the Clothing Industry. I am sure you will be in for a surprise.

.
There aren't many factories where I live. They packed up and went to either Mexico or China for cheaper labor and less taxes!

[alexan]

New find out of the chinese government: blame apple and others for what they are doing to their own people.

[mmix]

those pictures tells a lot of things..
but, look around my area not so different, toxic air..

[gnomeuser]

Hmmm

UK Statistics Office show that the male suicide rate in 2008 for the whole country was 15 per 100,000, for women 5 per 100,000.

So if I went to work at Foxconn I would, statistically, be less likely to commit suicide than if I stay in the UK.

Statistics, damn lies and all that.......

I was thinking the exact same thing, 1 person out of 33.000 electing to end their life seems fairly low. We are also ignoring every other consideration which might lead someone to end his/her life which do not involve ones work life. Even if that work is degrading, underpaid and generally physically hard running for long hours. That is is a problem we can aid as consumers, simply refuse to buy that new iPhone (or whatever product Foxconn produces you might desire) till better work conditions are present and accept that this is likely to lead to higher costs for the product.

We cannot solve problems in the love life, general issues of depression and other personal issues.

As someone who has actually attempted to end his own life, I can say that though I have done some degrading low paid crap in my day however the thing that drove me to the edge was the sudden collapse of my health and one of them broken hearts, the loss of my academic aspirations (as a result of the health issue) and general hopelessness... ironically killing myself was another thing I sucked at, occasionally sucking is a good thing in retrospect.

I'm all for improving conditions for the Foxconn employees, but I don't think it will lead to a significant lower suicide count.

Suicide is a complex thing, it isn't just where you work and which fruity company pays your slave masters, even if they are draconian in the enforcement of their security policy.

[JDShu]

People are missing the point that there were 12 suicide attempts within a 4-5 month timespan. Wiki currently has a good description:


Between Jan 2010 to May 2010, twelve Foxconn employees attempted suicide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide), with ten deaths[36] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn#cite_note-35). Some reporters criticized long working hours with low pay and harsh management methods such as physical abuse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_abuse) towards mainland employees from Taiwanese managers. Some workers have complained about the monotonous work schedule and inhumane working relationships (such as one employee who had worked for half a year and yet did not know the names of his dormitory mates). [37] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn#cite_note-36) Compared to China's overall suicide rate, the suicide rate at Foxconn is not statistically aberrant but the rapid rate of the suicides is unusual.[38] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn#cite_note-WSJ-Foxconn-37)[39] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn#cite_note-Economist-Foxconn-38)

[JDShu]

When I first started my own business, I worked 18 months without 1 day off. I worked Christmas and all other holidays.

Typical work week was 6am to 8pm M-F and 6am-Noon Sat/Sun. But sometimes it would be over 100 hours in a week if necessary. It took 7 years before I could work a 40 hour week.

You do what you got to do. Without those kinds of hours, I could not afford to buy the equipment and pay the bills.

60 hours is not "lifeless". 100 hours is though. You sleep, eat, work, repeat.

Self-employment is very different, this is not a good comparison.

[hellmet]

I swore to myself a few years ago - never to buy, gift or support any Apple product ever. I don't complain if I see an apple product around. I just don't talk about it. I've a Lenovo Thinkpad laptop and a Sansa Clip MP3 player that get my job done pretty well and I get to install and load what I like on them.

[lindsay7]

What would all of those employees be doing if they did not work for Foxconn? Nothing, or work in the rice fields for less? Does anyone remember China before they began this industrialization? Starvation, poverty, and lower standard of living?

[JDShu]

What would all of those employees be doing if they did not work for Foxconn? Nothing, or work in the rice fields for less? Does anyone remember China before they began this industrialization? Starvation, poverty, and lower standard of living?

Inequality in China has soared and there is more social unrest - there have been multiple cases of school massacres in the past two years. A segment of the Chinese population are much better off, but there is also a segment that is worse off. Basically, its a much more complicated social situation than you are implying.

[Achetar]

This might not be Foxconn's fault:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_(book)

There is a famous book on this topic that correlates suicides with the amount of disorder in people's lives (e.g. they lack religion) and that is something that is outside of Foxconn's control. I will admit that they probably are not helping with the dummies they provide their employees to vent frustration, but aside from that, I am not sure how anything they could possibly be doing be related to this phenomenon. It is possible that they are the scapegoat here for a much more widespread problem that is not isolated to them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_causation

Enjoy!

[NMFTM]

Inequality in China has soared...
If you had 10 people. Of which 2 made $100 and the other 8 made $5. But later on had that same number of people, where 2 made $5000 and the other 8 made $20, that's a huge increase in inequality. But, it doesn't mean that the majority (the other 8 ) still aren't 4x better off than they were before. The rich may have gotten richer and at a much greater rate than the poor. But the poor have gotten much richer as well.

[JDShu]

If you had 10 people. Of which 2 made $100 and the other 8 made $5. But later on had that same number of people, where 2 made $5000 and the other 8 made $20, that's a huge increase in inequality. But, it doesn't mean that the majority (the other 8 ) still aren't 4x better off than they were before. The rich may have gotten richer and at a much greater rate than the poor. But the poor have gotten much richer as well.

Firstly, this is a poorly thought example. Your first society has a world where rich people have 20 times the purchasing power of poor people, while in the second society, its 250 times. In a world of finite resources (which is what, unfortunately, we live in) the poor have become poorer because more of the resources have gone to the rich who can afford them over the poor. Money is just a means for distributing resources.

What I suspect you mean is that the total amount of resources have increased for China due to industrialization.

Inequality causes social unrest. It doesn't matter what the absolute wealth levels are. This has been shown by the many school stabbing and suicide cases.

China also has previously pristine environments becoming completely polluted, dangerous work conditions - every month there is news of another group of workers dying from mine explosions or whatnot - and not to mention horrible quality Chinese products (milk powder, toys) that cause death and sickness.

China has made heartening progress economically, but to say that everybody is better off is too broad of a statement and misses the fact that there are problems that didn't used to exist that exist now... especially for the poor.

Btw, heres a tidbit, Guangzhou province (where Foxconn is located) has a worker shortage. They had to raise the minimum wage to attract workers. So perhaps those workers at Foxconn would have somewhere else to go even if it didn't exist.

[user1397]

This might not be Foxconn's fault:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_(book)

There is a famous book on this topic that correlates suicides with the amount of disorder in people's lives (e.g. they lack religion) and that is something that is outside of Foxconn's control. I will admit that they probably are not helping with the dummies they provide their employees to vent frustration, but aside from that, I am not sure how anything they could possibly be doing be related to this phenomenon. It is possible that they are the scapegoat here for a much more widespread problem that is not isolated to them.
First of all that book was published more than 100 years ago, and many of its reports might be misleading or completely inconsequential in the present day, and second I would not give the example of "lack of religion" as a reason for disorder in people's lives...there is very little data out there indicating this is true, and the data that is usually cited for it comes from religious institutions for the most part.

But anyway, so we don't get off-topic, the conditions at Foxconn are bad enough to make me think it is the primary cause of most of these suicides, especially since so many happened recently.

[McRat]

Huh. :confused:

Is there a second China somewhere hidden away?

As I remember, the government starved tens of millions to death in the 1960's.

How many millions of Chinese died last year of hunger?

What is truly confusing is that greedy capitalists actually did more to mitigate the suffering than the Chairman and Friends did. Heck, Mao could have cut back on the pork chops and saved a couple families all by his lonesome.

But I do suppose it's better to starve to death in the name of Progress, than have a full belly in the name of Greed. Not sure if the kids who died knew the difference though.

[HappinessNow]

Watch the Story of Stuff to see the overall problem is much bigger then Foxconn:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLBE5QAYXp8

Now with that said it does not excuse Apple/Dell/HP/etc from freely exploiting slave-like labor conditions at Foxconn for pure profit to the shareholders.

I refuse to buy any Apple products on principle alone. The last computer I bought was a Fujitsu (made in Japan)...the last Smartphone I bought was a Google Nexus One (Made in Taiwan).

It doesn't take that much to buy according to your conscience. :P

[KiwiNZ]

Again I will repeat what I said wrote in an earlier post ....

The western consumer demanded the product at ever decreasing prices with ever increasing feature sets The OEMS had already cut their margins to the barest of minimums , therefore to met the ever increasing demand for something for nothing there was only one thing left, labor cost , thus moving to the China's.

Want to help the situation in Foxconn pay higher prices ... yeah right

[lykwydchykyn]

The western consumer demanded the product at ever decreasing prices with ever increasing feature sets


How exactly does the western consumer "DEMAND" these things? Is there a hotline I'm supposed to call to gripe about prices and feature sets?

[KiwiNZ]

How exactly does the western consumer "DEMAND" these things? Is there a hotline I'm supposed to call to gripe about prices and feature sets?

Ever worked for an OEM ?

Just read through these Forums at folks bleating about prices. A couple of week past I was in a store an customer was complaining that the HP Netbook was too expensive . It was on sale for $286 ($194US) , I was tempted to as him I wanted it for nothing.

Believe me the consumer can easily demand. Consumer power is real.

In the Enterprise sector I would get RFP's across my desk for approval at prices that were at negative margin constantly and they have a flow on into consumer pricing as well

[3rdalbum]

I was thinking the exact same thing, 1 person out of 33,000 electing to end their life seems fairly low.

Corrected for you. Otherwise that's a VERY high rate.

[McRat]

People vote for pricing with their wallets. We want crappy stuff; good stuff doesn't sell.

Has it ever puzzled you why simple consumer goods are declining in quality? And good pieces are getting harder and harder to find?

I really don't believe an Evil Corporation has "low prices" as it's primary business model. They do it because that what sells. You want junk, they set up factories in junkyards.

Look at all the cheapo tool kits. Even Sears downgraded their quality to stay competitive. Go to a normal hardware store, and all the handtools are disposible. Good ones are hard to locate.

It's reverse Darwinism. Survival of the weakest. :)

So if you don't want to buy goods made by slave labor out of cardboard, vote with your wallet. You won't.

[KiwiNZ]

People vote for pricing with their wallets. We want crappy stuff; good stuff doesn't sell.

Has it ever puzzled you why simple consumer goods are declining in quality? And good pieces are getting harder and harder to find?

I really don't believe an Evil Corporation has "low prices" as it's primary business model. They do it because that what sells. You want junk, they set up factories in junkyards.

Look at all the cheapo tool kits. Even Sears downgraded their quality to stay competitive. Go to a normal hardware store, and all the handtools are disposible. Good ones are hard to locate.

It's reverse Darwinism. Survival of the weakest. :)

So if you don't want to buy goods made by slave labor out of cardboard, vote with your wallet. You won't.

Agreed , most of the hand tools you see in the big Hardware chains are injuries waiting to happen. they are made of rubbish metal. Buying them is false economy.

[HappinessNow]

Again I will repeat what I said wrote in an earlier post ....

The western consumer demanded the product at ever decreasing prices with ever increasing feature sets The OEMS had already cut their margins to the barest of minimums , therefore to met the ever increasing demand for something for nothing there was only one thing left, labor cost , thus moving to the China's.

Want to help the situation in Foxconn pay higher prices ... yeah right


How exactly does the western consumer "DEMAND" these things? Is there a hotline I'm supposed to call to gripe about prices and feature sets?

Take the time to actually Watch "The Story of Stuff" about a scientist who tracked where all our stuff comes from and why we pay the low prices we do; hint: it is all by design:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLBE5QAYXp8

That leads consumers to choice; Apple could lead the market, in making the right choices. If they did I would be willing to pay more for their products. Most Apple consumers would.

I have been wanting a 27" iMac for some time now.

Steve Jobs please step up to the plate and make the right decisions!

[Shining Arcanine]

First of all that book was published more than 100 years ago, and many of its reports might be misleading or completely inconsequential in the present day, and second I would not give the example of "lack of religion" as a reason for disorder in people's lives...there is very little data out there indicating this is true, and the data that is usually cited for it comes from religious institutions for the most part.

But anyway, so we don't get off-topic, the conditions at Foxconn are bad enough to make me think it is the primary cause of most of these suicides, especially since so many happened recently.

That book is the foundation of modern sociology and none of its information has been found to be incorrect as far as I am aware. It is a statistical fact that less religious people tend to kill themselves more than more religious people. This is something that has not changed and is why Japan has the highest suicide rate in the world at the moment. The explanation that the book provides is that people with less order in their lives are more likely to kill themselves. Disproving that would require that you find people more likely to kill themselves with more order in their lives, which is something that no one has ever found anywhere.

Suggesting that a book that has survived more than a century of peer review is likely to contain incorrect information is absurd. The accuracy of widely accepted academic works is correlated with how recent they are, with more recent works being less accurate on average. This is precisely why a few years ago, the papers being published by that charlatan in South Korea regarding cloning were actually considered valid scientific papers (despite having been falsified) while now we know better.

I am an Applied Mathematics and Statistics/Computer Science double major. What are you? Do you have any background in any scientific field to be familiar with these kinds of things? I am fairly confident that you do not, because someone in a scientific field would not make the suggestions that you have made. They go against the natural order of things in the sciences.

[JDShu]

I am an Applied Mathematics and Statistics/Computer Science double major. What are you? Do you have any background in any scientific field to be familiar with these kinds of things? I am fairly confident that you do not, because someone in a scientific field would not make the suggestions that you have made. They go against the natural order of things in the sciences.

Wow, way to use an ad hominem.

I Googled a bit regarding the book. It seems that it was revolutionary for its methodology, but not without major criticisms towards both its methodology and its conclusion.

[Shining Arcanine]

Wow, way to use an ad hominem.

I Googled a bit regarding the book. It seems that it was revolutionary for its methodology, but not without major criticisms towards both its methodology and its conclusion.

Charles Darwin's book also has similar criticisms.

By the way, please learn Latin. Ad hominem means some variation of "(to/toward) (the/a) (man/person)", specifically referring to motion toward a (man/person). The prepositions "to" and "toward" seem to be interchangeable in English (please correct me if I am wrong about this; I strongly desire to be wrong about this). Latin lacks articles. The Romans made no distinction between men and people, because women were not considered people at the time; this means that homo can refer to either a man or a person, although in the context of Roman society, homo means man, because only men had the roles typically associated with the notion of "person" and the idea of a "person" is something that the Romans did not appear to have. The closest thing to "person" in latin is either anima, which means soul or gentes/populus, which mean people, which is the plural of person in English and has no singular in Latin that allows for a direct reference to a single human being that is part of a larger group of people. The result is 8 different ways of translating that one phrase and if you knew Latin, you would know that. I hate it when philosophy professors misuse the phrase because it tends to spread ignorance as to what the phrase actually means. :/

[JDShu]

Charles Darwin's book also has similar criticisms.

By the way, please learn Latin. Ad hominem means some variation of "(to/toward) (the/a) (man/person)", specifically referring to motion toward a (man/person). The prepositions "to" and "toward" seem to be interchangeable in English (please correct me if I am wrong about this; I strongly desire to be wrong about this). Latin lacks articles. The Romans made no distinction between men and people, because women were not considered people at the time; this means that homo can refer to either a man or a person, although in the context of Roman society, homo means man, because only men had the roles typically associated with the notion of "person" and the idea of a "person" is something that the Romans did not appear to have. The closest thing to "person" in latin is either anima, which means soul or gentes/populus, which mean people, which is the plural of person in English and has no singular in Latin that allows for a direct reference to a single human being that is part of a larger group of people. The result is 8 different ways of translating that one phrase and if you knew Latin, you would know that. I hate it when philosophy professors misuse the phrase because it tends to spread ignorance as to what the phrase actually means. :/

Please learn English.

[McRat]

Take the time to actually Watch "The Story of Stuff" about a scientist who tracked where all our stuff comes from and why we pay the low prices we do; hint: it is all by design:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLBE5QAYXp8

That leads consumers to choice; Apple could lead the market, in making the right choices. If they did I would be willing to pay more for their products. Most Apple consumers would.

I have been wanting a 27" iMac for some time now.

Steve Jobs please step up to the plate and make the right decisions!

Scientist telling us about mfr'g? Perhaps an engineer would be a better fit.

OK, where do you think Steve Jobs should have manufactured electronic products produced?

Not the US. We already got rid of most our circuit board, chip, and plastics factories. That is true for most the Western world. The days of RCA are over.

Or are you saying they should just drop out of business?

If it is any consolation, the only computer I've bought in the last 5 years that has significant domestic mfrd content is the MacBook Pro. The aluminum case is machined in California.

[NMFTM]

Take the time to actually Watch "The Story of Stuff" about a scientist who tracked where all our stuff comes from and why we pay the low prices we do; hint: it is all by design:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLBE5QAYXp8
I can't vouch for the majority of the stuff in that video. But I'm calling BS on the one part that I do know about, computers. About half way through the video she says that she opened up a desktop and year to year computers don't change at all except for one part. Which you can't replace because they keep changing the part.

As someone who's built his own computer I have absolutely no idea what she's talking about. All of the parts change year to year. If by "one part" she means the CPU, than the CPU sockets change because Intel and AMD add new features that require a newer type of motherboard and socket to use. Like how Core i7's have the RAM controller directly on the CPU instead of having to use the Northbridge. You really can't make a drastic change like that and still maintain backwards compatibility with older socket types. Also, the RAM speed, GPU power, HD sizes, and everything else in the computer gets better every year. It's an industry that's rapidly innovating because computing is still a relatively new thing. Eventually we'll start to reach a point to where innovation will slow down as things get ever faster and certain roadblocks are hit. But that won't be for awhile.

[KiwiNZ]

http://www.engadget.com/2010/05/31/apple-rumored-to-begin-paying-foxconn-employees-direct-wages/

"Chinese website Zol -- which is owned by CBS Interactive -- is reporting that Apple may be moving toward a model of paying Foxconn employees direct subsidies, in the form of small percentages of of the profits from whatever product line they work on. It's also interesting to note that the report claims that Apple has looked into the situation, and found that the general unhappiness of the workers and the recent spate of suicides could be attributed to low wages. The report says that Apple -- which apparently pays Foxconn 2.3 percent of the final retail price for a given product -- will pay an additional amount directly to the workers, which would give a significant boost to the roughly $132 they're currently pulling in per month. The actual payout numbers we're hearing -- around 1 to 2 percent of a retail price of the products manufactured -- don't exactly make sense so we're hoping to get clarification as to the breakdown if the rumor turns out to be true. The report also states that the iPad production line will be the first to benefit from the scheme. We have asked Apple for comment and will update if and when we hear back."

[McRat]

Apologies out to those I might have offended with my course humor.

[Zerocool Djx]

Where is the teamsters when you need them?

[McRat]

Where is the teamsters when you need them?

Busy chasing all the businesses out of North America ...

[ubuwatson]

I hate these threads. Enjoy technology and skip the politics. You'll never know the whole truth (as journalism is tainted), only the half truth anyways...

[m15hun]

Meh, I used to work 80 hours a week and often be on my feet for 12+ hours a day (in the UK), this doesn't sound too terrible. The suicides are endemic to Chinese society, they aren't isolated to this factory.

Smacks of Gizmodo getting the hump over the iPhone debacle to me.