German Court says you must protect your wireless signal

[Crunchy the Headcrab]

BERLIN - Germany's top criminal court ruled Wednesday that Internet users need to secure their private wireless connections by password to prevent unauthorized people from using their Web access to illegally download data...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37107291/ns/technology_and_science-security/

Seriously? I'm sick and tired of these money grubbing jerks that sue everyone for everything and make it impossible for people (such as myself), who use the Internet honestly, to get anything done.

Not saying that I'd leave my wifi unptrotected anyway but still...
/end rant

[Tristam Green]

Title misleading; a German court can't tell me to do anything.

[KiwiNZ]

Thread title amended

[Phrea]

I believe it's -or will be- the same in The Netherlands.

[Ebere]

That's putting the blame on the victim.

The court itself has become an accessory to crime.

[Crunchy the Headcrab]

Sorry, I originally had German in the title but didn't want to spark up an politically driven controversy that would get the thread closed.

[Ylon]

In Italy there's already something.. even if the law don't mention nothing about piracy.
The way was intended is avoid that terrorist or other groups of this kind use open networks of unaware citizen for their stuff.

[Tristam Green]

Sorry, I originally had German in the title but didn't want to spark up an politically driven controversy that would get the thread closed.

Truthfully, I wouldn't mind local ordinances dictating this in the States, but certainly not Federal Laws.

[howefield]

make it impossible for people (such as myself), who use the Internet honestly, to get anything done.

In what way would protecting your wireless internet connection stop you getting anything done ?

[McRat]

Lame.

There are reasons for having open hotspots. There is no reason for stealing a song you can buy legally for 0.99c. The two aren't related.

Punish the thieves instead of those who are trying to help others connect.

Many hotels have open lobby wireless routers. If the RIAA believes removing that courtesy is going to help get the public on their side, I gotta feeling it ain't going to work.

[McRat]

Here's what I don't understand. Copyright music is pumped into a 50,000 watt radio tower that can be heard by everyone for free, 24hrs a day, and can be recorded.

Exactly how hard are they working to stop people from listening to music for free? Pull the plug on the radio tower before you try and throw college kids in prison.

[Ebere]

Here's what I don't understand. Copyright music is pumped into a 50,000 watt radio tower that can be heard by everyone for free, 24hrs a day, and can be recorded.

Exactly how hard are they working to stop people from listening to music for free? Pull the plug on the radio tower before you try and throw college kids in prison.

Very good point.

Worth repeating.

[KiwiNZ]

Here's what I don't understand. Copyright music is pumped into a 50,000 watt radio tower that can be heard by everyone for free, 24hrs a day, and can be recorded.

Exactly how hard are they working to stop people from listening to music for free? Pull the plug on the radio tower before you try and throw college kids in prison.


Royalties :rolleyes:

[KiwiNZ]

Lame.

There are reasons for having open hotspots. There is no reason for stealing a song you can buy legally for 0.99c. The two aren't related.

Punish the thieves instead of those who are trying to help others connect.

Many hotels have open lobby wireless routers. If the RIAA believes removing that courtesy is going to help get the public on their side, I gotta feeling it ain't going to work.

The court is saying a scum uses a unsecure connection to download say 1000 songs it is detected , tracked and the unsuspecting victim gets stung for this. Of course they will punish the dopey pirates when they find them but its also encouraging people to protect themselves. Like legislating to wear seatbelts in cars.

[McRat]

It sure is nice to open your notebook in the lobby of nice hotel and BANG! instant internet access. No passwords, no WPA2/Personal/128bit/AES-TKIP/BFD/NFG to hassle with.

Oh, wait. Just like my home! That's why I like it. If a guest wants to use my internet, I don't have a problem with it. Heck, they can even use my toilet (as long as they don't drink out it, if my dog isn't permitted, neither is a guest).

I would however, let any RIAA lawyer drink out of it.

[donkyhotay]

If the RIAA believes removing that courtesy is going to help get the public on their side, I gotta feeling it ain't going to work.

You're assuming the RIAA cares about having the public their side (except in regards to votes for getting legistlation passed).

[KiwiNZ]

It sure is nice to open your notebook in the lobby of nice hotel and BANG! instant internet access. No passwords, no WPA2/Personal/128bit/AES-TKIP/BFD/NFG to hassle with.

Oh, wait. Just like my home! That's why I like it. If a guest wants to use my internet, I don't have a problem with it. Heck, they can even use my toilet (as long as they don't drink out it, if my dog isn't permitted, neither is a guest).

I would however, let any RIAA lawyer drink out of it.

Point missed

[Tristam Green]

Point missed

same. It doesn't take long to double-click a network address and enter an access code you pick up from the front counter or hotel receipt. plus it must be nice for McRat to pay for his neighbors' internet access. That's some real altruism there.

[Viva]

I don't see anything wrong with it tbh.

[McRat]

same. It doesn't take long to double-click a network address and enter an access code you pick up from the front counter or hotel receipt. plus it must be nice for McRat to pay for his neighbors' internet access. That's some real altruism there.

I suppose I'm not unique. I've got a least 100 passwords for everything from my microwave (yup) to my car radio.

This might be really hard to believe, but not everything needs a password. Certainly not that stupid oven.

Thank goodness one of our neighbors had the same belief when we had an outage, and an email had to be sent for work immediately.

A lot of talk goes on about a "free" internet, and "anonymous" internet access, and "privacy" on the internet. Well, what's it going to be?

Have the RIAA in charge of our civil rights? Our daddy?

Naw. I'd rather have my neighbors looking out for my interests than a herd of greedy lawyers.

Sure, lock YOUR house when you are home. Don't make me lock mine. There are some things that must be locked. Some things does not mean everything.

I don't have a BitTorrent account, or any other PiratePump. I have no software, hardware, tools, music, movies, etc, that I ripped off somebody for. Actually the opposite. I'm on the "other" side.

And yes, I wear a "seatbelt" and over $20,000 worth of safety equipment when racing. I don't wear it in the kitchen. Heck no knife guards even. If I cut my finger, I know how to use a bandaid.

[Paqman]

"Private users are obligated to check whether their wireless connection is adequately secured to the danger of unauthorized third parties abusing it to commit copyright violation," the court said.

To my mind, this doesn't necessarily mean you have to encrypt the connection. You just have to take reasonable measures to prevent unauthorised access, of which encryption is only one possible solution.

For example, I run a FON hotspot at home. My personal wifi is encrypted, but there's a second open FON spot. Since anyone logging onto the unencrypted wifi has to either log in with their FON credentials, or provide a credit card number, they can't use my connection anonymously. FON logs this access. This certainly satisfies the incoming Digital Economy Act's requirements in the UK, and on the face of it it would also wash in Germany.

[pwnst*r]

It sure is nice to open your notebook in the lobby of nice hotel and BANG! instant internet access. No passwords, no WPA2/Personal/128bit/AES-TKIP/BFD/NFG to hassle with.

Oh, wait. Just like my home! That's why I like it. If a guest wants to use my internet, I don't have a problem with it. Heck, they can even use my toilet (as long as they don't drink out it, if my dog isn't permitted, neither is a guest).

I would however, let any RIAA lawyer drink out of it.

You really need to re-think that stance.

[keljaden]

I don't think the victims should be required to take proper measures. I also do not think they should be charged either.

Even if I do not lock the door to my house, that doesn't give someone the right to come in and steal all my possessions.

If they walk into my unlocked door and decided to use my house as a fortress to defend off law enforcement should I be punished for it? It is just another BS law that causes harm to the economy and everything else good in this world...All they care about is the dollar bill and nothing more.

[CharlesA]

If I didn't want someone to know my WPA2 key, I'd set a second AP up with less security.

As it is, I don't have guests over very often, but I do have a second AP ready to go if anyone comes over.

[thatguruguy]

I don't think the victims should be required to take proper measures. I also do not think they should be charged either.

Even if I do not lock the door to my house, that doesn't give someone the right to come in and steal all my possessions.

If they walk into my unlocked door and decided to use my house as a fortress to defend off law enforcement should I be punished for it? It is just another BS law that causes harm to the economy and everything else good in this world...All they care about is the dollar bill and nothing more.

I can't speak to the law where you are. Here in the U.S.A., if you leave your car open with the keys in it and someone steals it and runs over someone else, you're liable.

[McRat]

If I didn't want someone to know my WPA2 key, I'd set a second AP up with less security.

As it is, I don't have guests over very often, but I do have a second AP ready to go if anyone comes over.

Yup.

I don't give access to my LAN to guests, there are 3 routers, and they can only see 1. The LAN is private. The internet is not.

[speedwell68]

I can't speak to the law where you are. Here in the U.S.A., if you leave your car open with the keys in it and someone steals it and runs over someone else, you're liable.

In the UK if you leave your car unlocked your theft insurance is invalidated. I have long held the belief that anyone operating a wireless internet connection should be made to ensure it is secure. Where I used to live my neighbours never secured their Wifi and my computer would always default on to it, as the signal was stronger in my garage or garden. Now under current legislation I would be held responsible for illegally accessing their wifi.

Also there is the question of Data Protection. In the UK anyone holding sensitive data on a computer system is legally responsible to ensure it stored in a secure manner. Lets say that they are using a Windows share between authorised persons in an office environment over a unsecured Wifi network. That information is now open to anyone that can see that unsecured network. This is a criminal offence in UK law. So it should only go to follow that operating an unsecured wireless network should also be a criminal offence.

[witeshark17]

I would think it's a moot point as anyone would put a password on a wireless router anyway. Wouldn't they? *Chuckle* :lolflag:

[McRat]

Here's the risk:

Tomorrow you get a letter from an attorney. It says copyright music was sent to your IP.

You hire an attorney to respond:

"No, you are mistaken. Your information is wrong."

"Here, fill out this 125pg discovery package, and let's go to deposition."

Now you did not do ANYTHING (no song was sent, mistake).

At this point your lawyer will suggest you settle for ... hmmm... $5000? That will save you a lot of money. And you will do it.

Why? You can't prove your side easily. You can prove something exists, but it's much harder to prove something doesn't. And more expensive.

The song doesn't have to be in your possession, you do not have to have a PirateSharing account, you only have to have a wireless router to be suspected of a crime. Did you have security on? Says YOU! Their printout says the song went to your IP.

The German decision means you have no defense. You will have to prove their data was doctored.

It's not about seat belts, auto theft, or WPA2. It's about being assumed guilty before innocent, and being put into an indefensible situation by owning a wireless router.

[KiwiNZ]

Here's the risk:

Tomorrow you get a letter from an attorney. It says copyright music was sent to your IP.

You hire an attorney to respond:

"No, you are mistaken. Your information is wrong."

"Here, fill out this 125pg discovery package, and let's go to deposition."

Now you did not do ANYTHING (no song was sent, mistake).

At this point your lawyer will suggest you settle for ... hmmm... $5000? That will save you a lot of money. And you will do it.

Why? You can't prove your side easily. You can prove something exists, but it's much harder to prove something doesn't. And more expensive.

The song doesn't have to be in your possession, you do not have to have a PirateSharing account, you only have to have a wireless router to be suspected of a crime. Did you have security on? Says YOU! Their printout says the song went to your IP.

The German decision means you have no defense. You will have to prove their data was doctored.

It's not about seat belts, auto theft, or WPA2. It's about being assumed guilty before innocent, and being put into an indefensible situation by owning a wireless router.

Easy solution

It takes about 35 seconds

Add security to your wireless router :rolleyes:

[McRat]

Easy solution

It takes about 35 seconds

Add security to your wireless router :rolleyes:

They can take my Open WiFi Network when they pry it from my cold, dead keyboard...

:popcorn:

[pwnst*r]

Your keyboard is networked?

[McRat]

Your keyboard is networked?

Yup. It's pretty cool!

:guitar:


I punch the keys, then words appear anywhere in the world!

[Ebere]

Yup. It's pretty cool!

:guitar:


I punch the keys, then words appear anywhere in the world!

Man !!

I wish I could do that !!

[McRat]

Man !!

I wish I could do that !!

It's that new 20th Century technology. I don't understand it, but I dig it!:)

I don't think the courts understand it well either.

That will be funny though, when Radio Free Europe is actually unsecure WiFi going to East Germany ...

[Ebere]

It's that new 20th Century technology. I don't understand it, but I dig it!:)

I don't think the courts understand it well either.

That will be funny though, when Radio Free Europe is actually unsecure WiFi going to East Germany ...

I'm wondering just how long it will be before we all have to live our entire lives in a fully encapsulative, hermetically sealed, protective 'bubble'.

Because if we don't and someone bashes us on the head, shoots us, gasses us, tosses down the stairs or out of a boat, knifes us, uses a flamethrower on us, etc... It will all be OUR fault, because we didn't wear the suit...

[McRat]

Just wait until they figure out that the purpose of life is not to get out of it alive.:confused:

Because nobody will.


So eating that 12,300 lbs of Bran Flakes, putting on a condom every morning when you wake up, and driving 25 mph in a car that runs off of gerbil flatuence will have been a complete waste of time.

:(

[Ebere]

If I leave my door unlocked, or heaven forbid, -open-...

And I leave a 100 dollar bill in my wallet, on the dresser...

And someone comes in the house, and steals that 100 dolar bill...

It is NOT my fault that the 100 dollar bill was stolen.

The person who stole it committed a criminal act. And THAT PERSON should be prosecuted. It should NOT be written off as my own fault because I didn't keep the 100 dollar bill in a bank vault.

Same goes if I leave the money in the car, and the car unlocked. --I-- Am NOT the criminal. The criminal is the criminal. I should not be blamed.

That is just completely backwards !!

Just because there are laws that say these things, does not make it right. Those are bad laws.

They make the court an accessory to crime. Period.

[McRat]

I like to call those Lazy Laws.

It's easier to arrest innocent people than criminals, so they adjust the laws to swap sides.

Instead of looking for murderers, you could handcuff the corpse for stealing somebody's bullets.

Since the corpse cannot put up a good defense ("Can you show the court a receipt for that lead???"), it makes for a much easier case.

[KiwiNZ]

I am out of this thread . It has become absurd.:rolleyes:[-(

[Ebere]

I am out of this thread . It has become absurd.:rolleyes:[-(

Absurd can be fun !

;)

BTW: I think everyone -should- do something to protect their own wireless signal.

I just don't think an uprotected wireless signal is an excuse for the crime committed when using same.

If someone used my neighbor's wireless signal for nefarious reasons, I think that in the first instance, the guy should be given a warning, and shown HOW to protect his wireless signal.

If it happens again, he should be fined something like 250 dollars.

If it happens again after that, THEN I think it is time to start looking at serious charges against him.

But just throwing it out there that the guy is responsible for the criminal act, just because his signal wasn't protected is pure BS.

In -any- case... The criminal is still the criminal, and the criminal should be prosecuted even from the very first instance.

Rat's lead stealing corpse may seem absurd. But IMO, the reality of these laws is -just- as absurd !

:)

[McRat]

On the original train of thought, even though seriously derailed...

I took the family out to an upscale Irish restaurant tonight and it had a WiFi hotspot. I think it was called "McDonalds"? or something.

No pesky PSK! But them Irish was always an unruly bunch of thrill- seekers and hooligans.

In a venue like that, nobody is there very long. Making them reprogram their phones or notebooks to check their mail is silly.

And so are laws that stop them.

It will be interesting to see what happens if "wide area WiFi" occurs. There are plans to light up huge areas of the maps with free WiFi as a public utility. Could the RIAA stop them?

[thatguruguy]

On the original train of thought, even though seriously derailed...

I took the family out to an upscale Irish restaurant tonight and it had a WiFi hotspot. I think it was called "McDonalds"? or something.

No pesky PSK! But them Irish was always an unruly bunch of thrill- seekers and hooligans.

In a venue like that, nobody is there very long. Making them reprogram their phones or notebooks to check their mail is silly.

And so are laws that stop them.

It will be interesting to see what happens if "wide area WiFi" occurs. There are plans to light up huge areas of the maps with free WiFi as a public utility. Could the RIAA stop them?

If you are logging and viewing your email over an open connection, you're making a mistake

[MasterNetra]

Like password protecting is a guarantee that someone can't get onto your wifi. Those can will hack. Its just like the old saying, "Locks just keep honest people honest." sure it makes the criminals work a little bit harder and it will reduce the incidents, but it doesn't actually solve the problem.

[McRat]

If you are logging and viewing your email over an open connection, you're an idiot.

Yes sir indeedy! I'm an idiot. :P

I'd hate for them Russkie's to get my junk mail. Some of that has 15% off coupons!!! You're really an idiot if your phone receives critical mail at all. Lots of problems with stolen phones, ask Steve Jobs.

I've been digitally sideswiped 4 times since 1975:

Hewlett Packard Engineering packed a blueprint with an Excel file that had a macro virus (1994?). You never know WHO to trust. This was floppy disk.

Somebody tried to buy $25,000 worth of Dell Computers in my name (1997?). Shipping address didn't match, so Dell called to confirm. My Dell orders were phone orders back then, so I assume Dell had an internal leak. They had my Dell Account #. I closed the account after that.

I was running Front Page for a hobby site ~10 years ago. The software had a hole, and a vandal trashed it.

And whenever XP came out, I was one of the RPC victims. Big **** hole in it.


So let's see... Somebody stole my password? Naw. Somebody broke into my shop? Naw. Unsecured communications? Naw.

Well what is my greatest enemy to security?

Microsoft was three of them. Holes in their software. And a crooked employee at Dell.

So if I stay away from Computer Experts, I would be a LOT safer it seems. :)

[thatguruguy]

You're really an idiot if your phone receives critical mail at all.


Agreed.