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View Full Version : Hardware vendor and shops arrogance towards Linux



ene_dene
May 11th, 2010, 04:23 PM
I'll be buying a laptop in next month. Since I run Linux exclusivity, there is no much info available what works and what doesn't, you can't be sure that specific laptops components will work unless you know someone who has exactly the same laptop that you can test with live CD for example.
Now, I've came to laptop that interests me and it has no OS preinstalled so I don't need to pay for MS tax on laptops.
I've sent a mail to shop asking them if that laptop worked fine on Linux, since on their site for OS they put Linux.
I got a quick response that they do not test computers on Linux and they changed the OS on their page to "none", and "recommended OS: Windows x32/x64".
I've tried to explain to them to them that it's 10minutes of work, putting a live CD and telling me does it work, and for that 10minutes they will get my 900$ (average pay in my country is about 700$, so it's not a small amount). They arrogantly responded that they don't support Linux.
This is something that is turned upside down. They expect me to give them large amount of money, and they are not willing to make a 10 minute test for a customer.
The best I could do was to answer them that I'll have to spend my money somewhere else (for which I got no response.

If this was an exception to rule I wouldn't mention it. But the problem is that Linux users can't ask if they can use Linux at all.

Purely from economic perspective. Lets say that that shop has 5 workers, one has to check a laptop, and spend 10minutes on it, by doing that the owner of the shop earns one pay for his employee. How can it be that Linux is so marginalized that they are willing to sacrifice they own profit for that. It's not just that, they get irritated even if you ask for LInux.

Any comments?

AlexC_
May 11th, 2010, 04:28 PM
Seems reasonable to me. You're asking them to go into their warehouse (which is assuming they even have access close to it), get a boxed laptop, open it all up and start the laptop with a live CD of your desired operating system (which they will most likely have to download and burn to disk). What if you were to not buy the laptop afterwards? They've just lost a laptop which they can no longer sell as new - far more expensive than a simple 10 minute job, for which you could do at home. Checking that the specs should be ok.

And what is to 'work'? Should it start up, should desktop effects 'work', how well should they 'work'? There is far too many variables for them to test.

ene_dene
May 11th, 2010, 04:33 PM
Seems reasonable to me. You're asking them to go into their warehouse (which is assuming they even have access close to it), get a boxed laptop, open it all up and start the laptop with a live CD of your desired operating system (which they will most likely have to download and burn to disk). What if you were to not buy the laptop afterwards? They've just lost a laptop which they can no longer sell as new - far more expensive than a simple 10 minute job, for which you could do at home. Checking that the specs should be ok.

And what is to 'work'? Should it start up, should desktop effects 'work', how well should they 'work'? There is far too many variables for them to test.
What you're saying if I came to shop and said that I want to check how the laptop looks like, and they open the box, and I say, sorry, I will not buy it, that its garbage?
That's simply not true.

AlexC_
May 11th, 2010, 04:35 PM
What you're saying if I came to shop and said that I want to check how the laptop looks like, and they open the box, and I say, sorry, I will not buy it, that its garbage?
That's simply not true.

No, that's not what I said. You missed the part about turning it on and /using/ the laptop. Besides, how many shops have you walked into that all their products are boxed up? The likely hood of them having one on display is high. Taking one out of the box to show wont really effect anything, unless the process has to be destructive to the packaging etc.

screaminj3sus
May 11th, 2010, 04:39 PM
Just make sure it has an intel or atheros wireless card and an nvidia card and linux should work alright :)

Dell's are generally pretty good for linux compatability.

ene_dene
May 11th, 2010, 04:40 PM
No, that's not what I said. You missed the part about turning it on and /using/ the laptop. Besides, how many shops have you walked into that all their products are boxed up? The likely hood of them having one on display is high. Taking one out of the box to show wont really effect anything, unless the process has to be destructive to the packaging etc.
In most civilized countries by law, you even have a test period in which you can return the product if you're not satisfied or change it for something else. Unboxing and plugin it in should make no difference at all.

ene_dene
May 11th, 2010, 04:41 PM
Just make sure it has an intel or atheros wireless card and an nvidia card and linux should work alright :)

Dell's are generally pretty good for linux compatability.
Hah, yes, but there are also webcam and microphone issues, and as I said, 900$ is not a small price to gamble with, at least not in my country.

AlexC_
May 11th, 2010, 04:44 PM
In most civilized countries by law, you even have a test period in which you can return the product if you're not satisfied or change it for something else. Unboxing and plugin it in should make no difference at all.

Of which they still can not resell as new, but as 'b-grade' stock at a reduced price. Which means? They get less money, so by you asking them to do such as task, they are risking money on you.

skierkyles
May 11th, 2010, 04:44 PM
Dont buy a laptop at that particular shop, go buy one somewhere else. It really isn't that big of a deal.

ene_dene
May 11th, 2010, 04:49 PM
Of which they still can not resell as new, but as 'b-grade' stock at a reduced price. Which means? They get less money, so by you asking them to do such as task, they are risking money on you.
OK, please explain to me the particular situation.
I come to a shop, and I want to see some laptop from their warehouse. They bring it to me.
I want to see does it work. They plug it in and press ON button.
That laptop is no longer new?

CharlesA
May 11th, 2010, 04:49 PM
Dont buy a laptop at that particular shop, go buy one somewhere else. It really isn't that big of a deal.

This.

Most of the electronic stores around here have display models that customers can try out.


OK, please explain to me the particular situation.
I come to a shop, and I want to see some laptop from their warehouse. They bring it to me.
I want to see does it work. They plug it in and press ON button.
That laptop is no longer new?

It's been opened, so they cannot sell it for the same price as new.

Paqman
May 11th, 2010, 04:51 PM
They arrogantly responded that they don't support Linux.

How is that in any way arrogant? Should they start supporting it just because you want them to?

It's a lot more than 10 minutes work to start supporting a new OS, especially one that you're not familiar with, and doesn't come with any kind of warranty from the vendor. I think you're being unrealistic.

AlexC_
May 11th, 2010, 04:52 PM
OK, please explain to me the particular situation.
I come to a shop, and I want to see some laptop from their warehouse. They bring it to me.
I want to see does it work. They plug it in and press ON button.
That laptop is no longer new?

Correct, it has now been used - so how can they possibly sell it to a customer as new? They can't. The situation you're describing is why shops have products on display, as demo products. Shops sometimes even sell these on (at a reduced cost) as 'ex-display' items.

Paqman
May 11th, 2010, 04:52 PM
OK, please explain to me the particular situation.
I come to a shop, and I want to see some laptop from their warehouse. They bring it to me.
I want to see does it work. They plug it in and press ON button.
That laptop is no longer new?

Correct.

ene_dene
May 11th, 2010, 04:57 PM
Ok, I was wrong, they where right. It's not logical to me that I can't test what I'm buying. But if that's how the system works, I'll have to except that and buy something that might work.

CharlesA
May 11th, 2010, 05:01 PM
Ok, I was wrong, they where right. It's not logical to me that I can't test what I'm buying. But if that's how the system works, I'll have to except that and buy something that might work.

Buy it. Test it and if it doesn't work return it and get another one.

ene_dene
May 11th, 2010, 05:02 PM
How is that in any way arrogant? Should they start supporting it just because you want them to?
Yes it's arrogant. If they have that display model, they can check it there, it's 10 minutes, no more. If I don't buy it they loose nothing, If I do they get 900$ for a new one. I'm not asking ASUS to test the product, I'm asking a guy in a small shop to put the damn CD into the laptop.
If it was packaged so it can't be opened, he could have say so, if it's on a display than it's 10minutes of work.
It's just stupid, it's in THEIR interest to sell that laptop, I can buy it somewhere else.

ene_dene
May 11th, 2010, 05:04 PM
Buy it. Test it and if it doesn't work return it and get another one.
That could be a problem... I said in civilized countries... mine is not.

Paqman
May 11th, 2010, 05:04 PM
It's not logical to me that I can't test what I'm buying.

You probably can, if you go in to the shop. Even if you buy online, using a credit card will give you pretty bulletproof rights to a no-questions refund if you want to return it.

Paqman
May 11th, 2010, 05:09 PM
I'm asking a guy in a small shop to put the damn CD into the laptop.


No, you're asking him to endorse a product that he's not familiar with, and can't support. If I was selling laptops and some BSD user asked me to verify whether BSD would work on it, i'd probably say the same thing as him. If it's not a system that i'd allocated time and money to supporting in my business plan, then the official line would always be "unfortunately we do not offer support for that system".

ene_dene
May 11th, 2010, 05:12 PM
You probably can, if you go in to the shop. Even if you buy online, using a credit card will give you pretty bulletproof rights to a no-questions refund if you want to return it.
Thanks, this is helpful. I will ask the shops about their return policies and the one that I can be sure will return my money if I'm not satisfied.

No, you're asking him to endorse a product that he's not familiar with, and can't support. If I was selling laptops and some BSD user asked me to verify whether BSD would work on it, i'd probably say the same thing as him. If it's not a system that i'd allocated time and money to supporting in my business plan, then the official line would always be "unfortunately we do not offer support for that system".
No, I've specifically asked him to put the CD, check the sound camera and wireless. If it doesn't work out of the box, say no and that's it.
It's a small shop and work/profit is bigger than 1. I'm not asking him for a full support, just a specific thing. Perhaps he would also get new Linux customers if I could recommend the laptop and shop to someone else. That's a logical long term economical thinking for a small shop.

Paqman
May 11th, 2010, 05:23 PM
Thanks, this is helpful. I will ask the shops about their return policies and the one that I can be sure will return my money if I'm not satisfied.


Make sure you ask your credit card company or bank, they might give you additional rights over what the retailer will.

ene_dene
May 11th, 2010, 05:35 PM
Make sure you ask your credit card company or bank, they might give you additional rights over what the retailer will.
Thank you. I've just called one big shop and they told me I could get money back in 7 days but that I should also check with a bank if buying on credit card.

Ylon
May 11th, 2010, 05:41 PM
The time you spend try to convince a company to become linux-friendly.. is the time you could use to find a a linux-friendly company and spend your money.
Simple equation.

Don't feed company that can't make business (waiting Microsoft and Apple doing for them)... just find someone which is interested in your business ;) (and bring friends who don't like malaware/virus in their PC)

themarker0
May 11th, 2010, 05:49 PM
Imho some are just better then others. One store in my area "United Computers" (Canada ON btw :P) Is amazing. The owner will tell me not just if the item is linux friendly, but how linux friendly. But if i go across the road into PP (Not saying the full name...) They know nothing. I did once order a computer from them, and asked for Ubuntu to be packed with it. All the parts were linux friendly. Guess what they shipped? Ubuntu server. When i called them, they didn't know ubuntu had a gui version.

98cwitr
May 11th, 2010, 05:50 PM
Seems reasonable to me. You're asking them to go into their warehouse (which is assuming they even have access close to it), get a boxed laptop, open it all up and start the laptop with a live CD of your desired operating system (which they will most likely have to download and burn to disk). What if you were to not buy the laptop afterwards? They've just lost a laptop which they can no longer sell as new - far more expensive than a simple 10 minute job, for which you could do at home. Checking that the specs should be ok.

And what is to 'work'? Should it start up, should desktop effects 'work', how well should they 'work'? There is far too many variables for them to test.

The better solution would be to take a Live CD into best buy and boot it on one of the displays...problem solved.

Ylon
May 11th, 2010, 05:55 PM
What about all the variants (*buntu) in multiboot on a little usb? :P

parn
May 11th, 2010, 05:58 PM
I'll be buying a laptop in next month. Since I run Linux exclusivity, there is no much info available what works and what doesn't, you can't be sure that specific laptops components will work unless you know someone who has exactly the same laptop that you can test with live CD for example.
Now, I've came to laptop that interests me and it has no OS preinstalled so I don't need to pay for MS tax on laptops.
I've sent a mail to shop asking them if that laptop worked fine on Linux, since on their site for OS they put Linux.
I got a quick response that they do not test computers on Linux and they changed the OS on their page to "none", and "recommended OS: Windows x32/x64".
I've tried to explain to them to them that it's 10minutes of work, putting a live CD and telling me does it work, and for that 10minutes they will get my 900$ (average pay in my country is about 700$, so it's not a small amount). They arrogantly responded that they don't support Linux.
This is something that is turned upside down. They expect me to give them large amount of money, and they are not willing to make a 10 minute test for a customer.
The best I could do was to answer them that I'll have to spend my money somewhere else (for which I got no response.

If this was an exception to rule I wouldn't mention it. But the problem is that Linux users can't ask if they can use Linux at all.

Purely from economic perspective. Lets say that that shop has 5 workers, one has to check a laptop, and spend 10minutes on it, by doing that the owner of the shop earns one pay for his employee. How can it be that Linux is so marginalized that they are willing to sacrifice they own profit for that. It's not just that, they get irritated even if you ask for LInux.

Any comments?
Lets see, if a customer walks into the shop and ask me to pop a CD into one of the display units, it will not be too much of a problem. If they simply call me on phone or mail me that request... unless it is a customer I know, I will not entertain that request as well.

I think that shop is fair, from where I am from, that dude will probably lie to me and tell me all is well without testing it after a smoke break.

Finally, the profit margin for a laptop is not that high - the manufacturers get the lion's share, the shop dont.

But again, I have only been working in a computer shop in my college days, maybe things are different after all these years.

themarker0
May 11th, 2010, 05:58 PM
The better solution would be to take a Live CD into best buy and boot it on one of the displays...problem solved.

Be warned, i was barred from a shop for 2 months because of doing that. :/

cariboo
May 11th, 2010, 06:07 PM
I think the op is the one being arrogant, expecting the shop to do something for nothing, the profit margins on computers is not very big. The shop may make if they are lucky $100.00 on the sale of the system. They have to pay an employee to take the time to run the live cd if they have one, then report whether it works or not.

Personally I wouldn't do that for some random person that emails me and asks to run the Live CD without an offer for payment first. If you want to know whether Linux will run on a system, go to the shop your self and ask if you can try it on one of their demo systems

98cwitr
May 11th, 2010, 06:08 PM
Be warned, i was barred from a shop for 2 months because of doing that. :/

that's why you get one of the dumbass sales guys to do it. tell him

"Im not going to buy a laptop until I see if this works...please help me." Gets em everytime....then you walk out.

themarker0
May 11th, 2010, 06:18 PM
that's why you get one of the dumbass sales guys to do it. tell him

"Im not going to buy a laptop until I see if this works...please help me." Gets em everytime....then you walk out.

His exact words at the time was "Vista is way faster then linux will be" I was buying a low end celeron...

jeffeulogy
May 11th, 2010, 06:36 PM
look up the specs for the wireless card, video, sound, and webcam then search on here or google and you'll have all you need to know. really though, how many pieces of hardware these days just plain don't work on linux? aside from the issues with the intel gma 500 and the touchscreen on my lenovo s10-3t, i've never had any real trouble with hardware beyond a little tweaking. the touchscreen even has kernel support on the way.

i wouldn't trust some low paid worker in a shop to verify compatibility for me. just google the model number and you're bound to find stories from people with first hand experience.

themarker0
May 11th, 2010, 06:41 PM
Oh yea, try linlap, i did that and got a good laptop :P

98cwitr
May 11th, 2010, 07:00 PM
His exact words at the time was "Vista is way faster then linux will be" I was buying a low end celeron...

and then you pull out the disk and say "let's test your theory."

themarker0
May 11th, 2010, 07:20 PM
and then you pull out the disk and say "let's test your theory."

Yes, and then i got kicked out for 2 months.

98cwitr
May 11th, 2010, 07:53 PM
Yes, and then i got kicked out for 2 months.

That's b/c you proceeded to put the disk in...let them do it. If they refuse, just say thank you and leave.

cloyd
May 12th, 2010, 01:04 AM
I think I understand ene-dene's frustration. Considering where he lives, I suspect he can't just walk into a Best Buy, and pop in a CD. In addition, in my experience, Best Buy employees have looked at me somewhat strangely when I mention Linux or Ubuntu.

However, I do think that the next time I buy a new computer, I am either going to have it built for me and insist that it have Ubuntu, or I will buy from a shop that specializes in Linux. By going this route, I may not get the machine any cheaper, but at least the shop will not have paid Microsoft for a copy of Windows on the machine. It may not be much, but every little bit help the Ubuntu/Linux cause.

Anyway, ene-dene, if you would search for a shop that supports Linux, you might avoid a lot of frustration and lower the adrenalin level in your system.