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Foster Grant
May 5th, 2010, 10:15 PM
[16:07] <sabdfl> i'm mark shuttleworth, and delighted to be here
[16:07] <sabdfl> fire away
[16:07] <jcastro> QUESTION: Will Gnome Shell be in default Maverick? If so, what will happen with Gnome Shell and Compiz? Will Compiz still work by default? If not, will there be an easy way to use Compiz?
[16:07] <sabdfl> the current release schedule puts Gnome Shell out of bounds for Maverick, but it will be packaged and available from universe
=== D is now known as Guest80988
[16:08] <sabdfl> we'd encourage people to try it, and it would be great if someone put together a daily build PPA so folks who are very interested could track development and help fix bugs
[16:08] <sabdfl> it's very interesting work, and there are important new technologies, and lots of things to consider
[16:08] <sabdfl> the more folks use it and think about it, the better our decisions will be for 11.04


I don't know if I like this or not. All the screen shots I've seen leave me thinking, "Meh." I definitely think Canonical shouldn't default to GNOME Shell just because it's supposed to be the latest, greatest thing.

<sabdfl> is, of course, Self-Appointed Benevolent Dictator For Life. :lol:

Read the rest of the Ask Mark chat from today: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekLucid/AskMark

sdowney717
May 5th, 2010, 10:46 PM
I like choices, so make it available to use if the user wants to use it.

Luke has no name
May 5th, 2010, 10:58 PM
I wish the question could have been pushed out more long term to ask how the Application Indicator and the rest of the Ayatana project are going to be affected by GNOME 3. AFAIK, GNOME 3 can be used for a traditional applet/window layout; gnome-shell is just one form the window manager can take. Which is good, I don't like GNOME-shell.


P.S.:
Foster, change your signature. If I'm not allowed to debate you without getting moderated, I don't want to hear your quips. You can have your opinion, but until UF brings back OMGPP like they should >_>, no politics here. No offense.

WinterRain
May 5th, 2010, 11:15 PM
I like choices, so make it available to use if the user wants to use it.

You can download it and install it yourself.

gnomeuser
May 5th, 2010, 11:21 PM
The right decision, also a no brainer. GNOME-shell has a ton of issues and missing functionality. It also seems very poorly aligned with Ubuntu's current state and direction.

Give it time to mature, it's still easily available for fans

Mr. Picklesworth
May 5th, 2010, 11:50 PM
The right decision, also a no brainer. GNOME-shell has a ton of issues and missing functionality. It also seems very poorly aligned with Ubuntu's current state and direction.

Give it time to mature, it's still easily available for fans

I definitely agree there. I love gnome-shell (integration is good!), I hate gnome-panel, and I want to see Bonobo die a cold, lonely death. (A desire which happens to align directly with gnome-shell, being that the panel is the last thing reliant upon it).

However, I simply cannot see Gnome Shell getting from where it is today to something seriously ready for shipping within six months. First it needs to be stable and feature-complete, then it needs a ton of usability testing, then all those usability bugs need to be actually fixed.

I just hope Ubuntu doesn't diverge so far from GNOME Shell's design that the two can never reconcile. It would be a real shame to have to throw out Canonical's UX work, it would suck to throw out Gnome Shell, and it would be a disaster if Canonical ended up maintaining the panel and Bonobo for all eternity.

TheOrangePeanut
May 5th, 2010, 11:54 PM
The best solution would be to make KDE 4 the primary DE for Ubuntu ;)

murderslastcrow
May 6th, 2010, 12:03 AM
If they integrate it well, it helps usability, and people without compositing can run it/have a default option that prevents them from losing a ton of functionality, like default to Gnome2 style without compositing, that would be ideal.

Also, an easy way to switch to Compiz would be a good idea. Is Gnome-Shell an extension of Metacity, or is it separate from the WM? Either way, we could get a lot out of this approach, and experimenting with new ideas is always a good idea. Then again, compiz makes the desktop feel more open, and gives the illusion of more space- Gnome-Shell seems to do the opposite, visually. It makes you feel like all your little boxes are in one big box. But I guess it utilizes the space better than just drawing a skydome around it. XD

Compiz is going to be peoples' favorite for a long time, but I think this will all work well when it's out there. People are used to having to install Simple Compiz to get more effects out of Compiz, anyway, so I don't think including a composited environment by default is really a BAD idea.

I really hope Compiz doesn't get secondary treatment and become less convenient to use, though. It's already so good.

Merk42
May 6th, 2010, 01:30 AM
The best solution would be to make KDE 4 the primary DE for Ubuntu ;)

http://static.kdenews.org/jr/mark-shuttleworth-linuxtag-2.jpg


I really hope Compiz doesn't get secondary treatment and become less convenient to use, though. It's already so good.

Compiz is incompatible with GNOME Shell.
However people could rewrite the various Compiz effects for Mutter (GNOME Shell's WM)

Linuxforall
May 6th, 2010, 01:34 AM
Considering all the bitching and moaning and I hate Lucid posts going around, its good he backed off Gnome Shell for a LTS release.

DeadSuperHero
May 6th, 2010, 01:43 AM
Yeah, Gnome-Shell's not ready just yet. But the concepts they've been cooking up for it make me want to use it exclusively really.

You can find quite a few great mockups of what the devs have in store. This one on notification systems (http://people.gnome.org/~mccann/screenshots/clips/20100122204135/), for example, has actually convinced me that it would be a great interface to use.

Techsnap
May 6th, 2010, 08:11 AM
Are you sure that's Mark Shuttleworth? I mean he didn't even capitalise the first letters of his name.

shafin
May 6th, 2010, 08:31 AM
Are you sure that's Mark Shuttleworth? I mean he didn't even capitalise the first letters of his name.
Hmm, it's actually Bill Gates, posing as 'm'ark.

bigsmitty64
May 6th, 2010, 08:33 AM
I found this interesting! :)

[16:12] <akgraner> <jbicha> QUESTION: Do you have any comments about the reports that a lot of the Ubuntu rebranding work was done using proprietary design software on OS X?
[16:13] <sabdfl> it's true!
[16:13] <sabdfl> some of the artists who worked on it, work on both Mac and Ubuntu, and some of the work was done on Mac (and Windows)
[16:13] <sabdfl> c'est la vie, i don't think that detracts from the work at all
[16:13] <sabdfl> of course, the same people are helping to improve the tools on Ubuntu
[16:13] <sabdfl> and that feedback is useful
[16:14] <sabdfl> and they get teased about it a lot
[16:14] <sabdfl> but it doesn't undermine their efforts in my mind

10027586
May 6th, 2010, 09:32 AM
Personally I like Gnome-Shell. It's not 100% ready for prime-time as a few things are missing (app categories and bluetooth and volume stuff for instance) but it's already a very usable system and looks like being a really clever way to interact with your computer. A couple of things need a speed-boost but I presume it'll get faster as it's optimised. Overall, it's unique, different to mac, windows, kde, etc and could be important in giving linux more of its own visual identity.

antenna
May 6th, 2010, 09:41 AM
I like Gnome-Shell a lot too, but this seems like a fair decision gives its current state and the time constraints involved.

BrokenKingpin
May 6th, 2010, 08:13 PM
Does this mean no Gnome 3.0, or using Gnome 3.0 with the old WM and panels?

NightwishFan
May 6th, 2010, 08:26 PM
Gnome 3 of with the panels of course. The Gnome Shell is just a part of Gnome 3. Just as plasma-desktop is part of KDE4.

BrokenKingpin
May 6th, 2010, 08:29 PM
Will Gnome still be doing on-going support and feature updates to the panels/metacity, or will they just be including as is going forward and all development will be on Shell?

NightwishFan
May 6th, 2010, 08:39 PM
I am sure focus will be on the shell, but the window manager from Gnome1, Sawfish, is still maintained (I think), so the panels should be around for quite a while.
http://live.gnome.org/GNOME3Myths

WinterRain
May 7th, 2010, 09:44 PM
The best solution would be to make KDE 4 the primary DE for Ubuntu ;)

Bye bye ubuntu if that ever happens.

Ioky
May 7th, 2010, 11:58 PM
Feel totally happy about it. I have tried it. It is really really bad. haha... well so far so bad... all the annoying zooming effect, pointless add/deleting desktop, totally silly dead center clock... and all the Graphical issues. Not to mention all issue how it work along with other software like compiz. and MW. I mean Compiz is mostly for one and with a few really nice feature. but can't work with other MW is totally un-accept able.

It is a GUI after all. Be able to produce "good look" graphic doesn't make it a good Graphically designed User Interface. Have been support GNOME since the second month after using Linux. Didn't really like KDE. The software from KDE is great. but the Desktop environment.... I call it ok... but GNOME is really nicely designed GUI. Even though it doesn't look like have any "Design" on it. Just like Pencil. we take the design as granted for the most part. But hey it fit in your hand pretty nicely for years and years after.

When I first come across GNOME. It has everything I ever wanted until I develop the concept of O3E.(A GUI concept I developed. and actually to make it happen in reality.) But when I first saw the GNOME SHELL video, and later try it myself. it is like zoom in, zoom out, zoom it, zoom out. doesn't matter what you trying to do. those are the effect you MUCH get. and that pretty pointless add/delete desktop feature. It is good to have as an option. But I don't think anyone would ever able to manage more than 10 desktop or ever 5 for that matter. After a number of open up desktop. this feature is pretty much pointless because you can't even see what is actually going on on each of the desktop? SO...What is the point?

Yes, people think GNOME should do something. But really... can they come up with a better idea? In a way, I feel they trying to visual out what people thinks in mind. but that usually make things take much longer time to achieve. like how long it takes you to do 1 + 1 ? whatever they answer you like to give. it take less than 1 sec. but actually visual it out take at least 1 sec or 2.

Anyway I am writing too much already.

BTW: if you want to know more that O3E thing I mentioned. You can contact me. (I just don't want to put something on the table irresponsibility)

Ioky
May 8th, 2010, 12:01 AM
Bye bye ubuntu if that ever happens.

What that really be bye by kubuntu? sense ubuntu is default with KDE and there is no point for Kubuntu. or maybe there will be Gubuntu?

NightwishFan
May 8th, 2010, 12:03 AM
The Shell already has a way to see all of your desktops. It is a new overview mode that is different from the wall, you just pan the desktops one by one.

Shakz
May 8th, 2010, 04:44 AM
Not to be a snob or anything, but I have tried the other session managers....if gnome isnt the default for ubuntu I am going to another distro. No thinking...no debate...no I quit thread.

Prolly stick with what I have till gnome 3 makes it to a major distro. If it does not then Ill go with the minors :-D

EDIT: The guy that got me to try Linux LOVES KDE...he has been on linux since 96 (actually came up today in conversation)....I cant stand it. I have tried it 3 times because of how he feels about it and how much I value his opinion. Sorry...its just more clicks to get where I want, and pretty...thats it.

NightwishFan
May 8th, 2010, 05:31 AM
I was a fan of KDE 3.5 as I have said. Here is why, awesome.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0c/Opensuse_10.3_first-boot.png

KDE4 is great and has awesome ideas. The reasons I do not use it are mere papercuts. I hope to see the platform continues to grow though.

As for Gnome, it is much of what is good in the mac and adds much of what is not. Some peoples opinions differ, but the current Gnome2 platform is great for me. Xfce4 as well.

The Gnome Shell is also great, I just hope that it turns out right and most people will come around. It has a lot of potential from both a developer and end user standpoint.

screaminj3sus
May 8th, 2010, 03:16 PM
http://static.kdenews.org/jr/mark-shuttleworth-linuxtag-2.jpg



Compiz is incompatible with GNOME Shell.
However people could rewrite the various Compiz effects for Mutter (GNOME Shell's WM)

Problem for me is mutter is SLOW as hell compared to compiz using radeon oss drivers. it feels like im getting 30 fps with it vs 60 with compiz. I also get some graphical glitches with it and none with compiz.

Frogs Hair
May 8th, 2010, 04:37 PM
Thank You ! Mark

dyltman
May 8th, 2010, 04:40 PM
Aslong as it's available for me to insta dl I'm happy, hopefully we'll see it default in 11.04 ^^

kio_http
May 8th, 2010, 05:05 PM
The right decision, also a no brainer. GNOME-shell has a ton of issues and missing functionality. It also seems very poorly aligned with Ubuntu's current state and direction.

Give it time to mature, it's still easily available for fans

Agreed. I was completely disappointed with KDE 4.0 series yet forced myself to use it. However under the hood it was very interesting, one of the reasons I was anticipating the release. Over the days (days!), I saw more stability and usability. Now KDE 4.4 to me is awesome. I have used every single RC and final release of KDE 3.5 + (and a few beta and alpha). So I've seen the gradual progress.

I hope the same applies for GNOME shell. Though not something I like from the start, I hope it turns into something I like.

Nick_Jinn
August 7th, 2010, 10:49 AM
So, is Unity going to be the DE just for netbooks or is it going to be the default for regular desktop edition as well?

I am a big fan of Gnome personally. I might check out a new desktop environment but I might end up going with a different distro that uses gnome if I am unhappy with it.

gnomeuser
August 7th, 2010, 11:05 AM
So, is Unity going to be the DE just for netbooks or is it going to be the default for regular desktop edition as well?

I am a big fan of Gnome personally. I might check out a new desktop environment but I might end up going with a different distro that uses gnome if I am unhappy with it.

Currently it is a UNE only target but there is no reason why the design wouldn't scale up or down in size and scope if they do it right.

I think we will see them push at least parts of Unity to regular desktop deployments after 10.10.

Nick_Jinn
August 7th, 2010, 11:39 AM
What do you mean by its a "une only target"? Ubuntu Netbook Edition? We are still getting Gnome?