PDA

View Full Version : In defence of the Command Line Interface



frncz
May 5th, 2010, 04:35 PM
This post really is addressed to Windows users having a hard time coming to terms with Ubuntu.
The command line interface (CLI, the ability to write commands directly into a terminal window, accessed for example via Applications -> Accessories -> Terminal) is a concept that pre-dates Windows as it was the main means of interaction with DOS or CP/M computers - here I show my age.

Linux and Ubuntu have maintained the CLI as a means of interacting with the computer. At least one generation of computer users have managed to communicate with their computers exclusively through Graphical User Interfaces (GUI) as provided by Microsoft and Apple - by pointing the cursor onto icons or keywords and by clicking the mouse. These GUIs have indeed made it simple for everyone to deal with computers, including pre-school infants. However much has been lost in terms of understanding how computers work. Indeed, many people don't care to know, and as long as they can do their job through good use of their software applications, they do not need to know.

However, for the curious, the CLI gives an insight into the operating system. It is rewarding, even if the Linux commands take a while to learn. The result is a more creative interaction with the computer and a sense of being in control.

Without a CLI, it is tedious to explain to a GUI user how to repair, modify or improve their computer, whereas a CLI command can be easily cut and pasted into a Terminal with immediate results. Anyone can easily and precisely report on the status of their computer by pasting the output of a CLI command. Communication between computer users is greatly improved.

The main point of this post is the following. Many praise Ubuntu for the great user community providing support and education. This is not found in GUI communities. I believe that the thriving forums in Linux and Ubuntu which give great depth to the support each one of us benefits from is largely due to the existence of the CLI, which makes communication so much easier.
If Ubuntu is gaining popularity, it is to a large extent due to the existence of our on-line communities. Their responsiveness, expertise and enthusiasm owes much to the CLI.

sudoer541
May 5th, 2010, 07:43 PM
Most computer users (me and 95% of this world) dont like to use the CLI cuz we want to use our computers to accomplish a task quickly with the mouse. We dont want to learn whats inside our OS and how it works. We just want our computers to work.
I find the GUI more accessible and easy to use because I just point and click on an icon and my tasks are done with minimal effort etc. OTOH on a CLI you have to type, type and type!!! (which is not bad if you have the time and patience)
I think the GUI is easier for the average user cuz people dont want to memorize commands to use their computer. people have more important stuff to memorize than computer commands. Plus the CLI displays some weird error messengers that dont make any sense.
Plus the computer was made to be super easy for everyone to use. And I really dont see any point of going back to the CLI days. Home PC users escaped from the CLI in 1995 and they dont want to go back to 1990s again cuz the time goes forward not backwards.
With the GUI we are going forward. Some people say the GUI is bloated or its not easy to use etc. I think some of them are right cuz I find the Linux CLI slightly easier than Windows CLI (which I rarely use). However I find GUI easier than CLI all the way!!!:p

On the other hand, I like pasta you like fish....so everyone likes different things...and we should NOT push our choices to others...cuz thats gonna hurt their feelings, make them feel bad or even attack us and its not right.

In case if you are wondering about my username.... its not from the CLI, but from virtualbox's sudoers group. Plus sudoer541 sounds kinda cute and trendy....just a bit...:lolflag:


btw that was a great thread, and remember....we all love you!!!):P:p

edit: you cant copy and paste commands if you dont have internet connection..or dont know this forum.

P4man
May 5th, 2010, 07:52 PM
CLI is MUCH easier and faster to copy/paste instructions and then report the result back
CLI is a lot faster than posting screenshots or writing long essays describing GUI screens
CLI works pretty much the same across desktop environments (gnome, kde, fluxbox etc)
CLI works the same regardless of your OS language (ever tried fixing a windows machine of a Japanase co worker? I have!)

CLI works even when the GUI doesnt !

CLI is not intuitive at all and sucks if you have no idea what you are doing and you want to discover stuff on your own. Use a GUI for that!

Shakz
May 5th, 2010, 07:57 PM
I am a little different. I work with Redhat at work through putty (remote terminals) all day. I have only recently switched to ubuntu at home...couple of months now I reckon. I used to use windows.

The command line is in my opinion a fantastic feature as the OP says. It enables us to share command line fixes in one short line rather than a series of screen shots and go to this menu...click whatever...then click whatever. I fixed my boot splash yesterday with a couple of keystrokes. It was great.

I am only 33 but I remember my first dos puter. Windows 3.1 was going around but we still had to launch games (Wolfenstien anyone?) via dos. I used to say back then that windows was for people that didnt know how to use their computers......I still say that :-P

Anywho the cli is great and tbh as much as I love ubuntu; having tried all the other major distros (even the ubuntu spinnoffs) and making it my os of choice over anything in the market I would leave it in a flash if they somehow disabled my access to the cli.

If someone had an issue I could simply wright them a small script to fix it for them if need be. I am not THAT great on linux. At work I start stop procs...write short start stop scripts, look through logs and edit config files. This is very basic linux in my opinion.

To finish this all off if your really good at windows you can look at starting pay of around 30k a year fixing peoples PCs. If your really good at linux you can look at double that working on servers.

Real important money making software always runs on nix. Windows is just a means of getting to truly powerful machines through the.....CLI.

perce
May 5th, 2010, 07:57 PM
OS X has command line. Last time I had to use command line was on a Mac. Therefore command line must be the new greatest innovation ;)

juancarlospaco
May 5th, 2010, 08:01 PM
Lastest creation of Microsoft uses CLI, its CLI sucks very well, Hyper-V
So, no Microsoft users complaining about CLI please.

98cwitr
May 5th, 2010, 08:08 PM
i use shells in windows and linux every day of my life...including sundays...if my computer is on and im in front of it there is more times than not a shell window is open :)

P4man
May 5th, 2010, 08:10 PM
I can understand very well that new linux users "complain". You make them do things they dont understand, not even remotely, that they can not reproduce without just mindlessly copy/pasting (its not like they can try again the next day and remember what to type), they cant try or think of small variants or alternatives, there is no help menu. Its almost like handing over your pc and not being allowed to watch while someone else tries fixing it, while the new users wants to learn and understand what you are doing and he has no clue what "sudo dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg" is even about.

So yes, it IS intimidating,

Its just the easiest and most universal way to provide (and get) help.

98cwitr
May 5th, 2010, 08:12 PM
Ubuntu is getting to a point where you dont need it nearly as often as say 7.xx or 8.xx, but it's still quite useful for those who know what they are doing.

fatality_uk
May 5th, 2010, 08:18 PM
Yes CLI is faster for some tasks, not all. I can't edit photos with ease from the CLI. Yes I can write bash scripts. Yes I can use the CLI for virtually any task. The CLI has it's place but I don't feel less of a Linux user for not having open 24/7 every time I login.

juancarlospaco
May 5th, 2010, 08:23 PM
You can learn Python-Fu and Script-Fu and do complex massive photo editing using only CLI.

If you know Python you know Python-Fu, BTW that is something that Photoshop cant do.

Calash
May 5th, 2010, 08:26 PM
I understand where you are coming from and agree.

However I feel the need to point out that Windows has had, and still does have, an very extensive command line interface. While it is not on the same level as the one found in Linux it is not only there but very powerful.

The issue is not that a CLI is not in Windows, or even that it would not be the most efficient way to help users. The problem is that most average windows users are tied into a specific mindset that ether has them just suffer with problems, use system restore or other GUI based alternative, or get the computer fixed at one of the many quick fix shops you can find in nearly any large technology chain store.

Bachstelze
May 5th, 2010, 08:27 PM
In defence of the Command Line Interface

I didn't know the CLI was being attacked...

98cwitr
May 5th, 2010, 08:36 PM
I didn't know the CLI was being attacked...

any new user coming from windows has done this...I remember I did for about a week and not knowing any Linux commands.

Now I keep typing ls in windows command prompt and getting pissed...lmao

fatality_uk
May 5th, 2010, 08:39 PM
You can learn Python-Fu and Script-Fu and do complex massive photo editing using only CLI.

If you know Python you know Python-Fu, BTW that is something that Photoshop cant do.

So writing a script to import a photo, create a new layer to add text, paste in text taken from a OpenOffice doc, add that text and colour it red, yellow and green, then change the font for each letter, then add a drop shadow to the text, select the top right quarter of the photo and add Gaussian blur to it is easier in the CLI?

I seriously doubt it!!! So as I say, the CLI has it's place and if it works for you, use it. Linux is as much about using the rights tools for the right job s it is about being a Linux guru.

Quick question. How many here don't actually have a GUI installed? At work I administer a SCO 5 Unix box. No GUI and I certainly apprentice firing up my Gnome or KDE desktop!

RiceMonster
May 5th, 2010, 08:40 PM
I think if you want to use Linux you've got to accept that you will probably have to open up a terminal here and there (that's of course if you're setting it up, not someone else doing everything for you).

Of course, if you don't like that, nothing wrong there. If you absolutely HATE it and you don't have someone to set it up and fix it for you, I'd say go with Windows or Mac. I however think it's incredibly convenient. I like doing administration, configuring, etc from the command line, and having system settings in text files. I just prefer the simplicity of that approach (simple from a technical approach, not a usability approach).

Greg
May 5th, 2010, 08:43 PM
So writing a script to import a photo, create a new layer to add text, paste in text taken from a OpenOffice doc, add that text and colour it red, yellow and green, then change the font for each letter, then add a drop shadow to the text, select the top right quarter of the photo and add Gaussian blur to it is easier in the CLI?

I seriously doubt it!!! So as I say, the CLI has it's place and if it works for you, use it. Linux is as much about using the rights tools for the right job s it is about being a Linux guru.

Quick question. How many here don't actually have a GUI installed? At work I administer a SCO 5 Unix box. No GUI and I certainly apprentice firing up my Gnome or KDE desktop!

If you're doing it a lot of times, then I'm sure that once you know how to do it it's way easier.

fatality_uk
May 5th, 2010, 08:52 PM
If you're doing it a lot of times, then I'm sure that once you know how to do it it's way easier.

It's not! In a GUI I can do that in seconds, to write a PyScript that would take minutes not including debugging.

As I said, I have to administer a SCO 5 UNIX server for a living so I know the CLI in depth both UNIX and Linux.

Bachstelze
May 5th, 2010, 08:52 PM
any new user coming from windows has done this...I remember I did for about a week and not knowing any Linux commands.

Now I keep typing ls in windows command prompt and getting pissed...lmao

No. We get very few users saying "the CLI is terrible and should disappear." Most just don't want to use it themselves, and would prefer having a GUI available for all common tasks. That's very different.

frncz
May 5th, 2010, 08:54 PM
I didn't know the CLI was being attacked...

You are correct, it was not being attacked. I wanted to highlight the benefits of CLI.

To the other posters, actually, I didn't know there was a powerful CLI in Microsoft Windows. I don't think I ever used it. Perhaps Windows will now be catching up, so we'd better watch out!

Drenriza
May 5th, 2010, 08:55 PM
People that nag about using the cli is difficult, waste of time, old-fashion e.c.t. Is in-experienced users.

That does not know what they are talking about.

doas777
May 5th, 2010, 08:58 PM
I got tired of getting errors when typing 'ls' in windows vdm or powershell, so I just installed the coreutils (http://gnuwin32.sourceforge.net/packages/coreutils.htm) package for windows....

standingwave
May 5th, 2010, 08:58 PM
I'm in a love/hate relationship with the command line. I've been using computers since the 1970s so I obviously grew up with the command line (CP/M, DOS, etc.) and happily waved goodbye to it in the eighties. Still, in many cases, only a bit of CLI magic can get the job done.

RiceMonster
May 5th, 2010, 09:00 PM
I got tired of getting errors when typing 'ls' in windows vdm or powershell, so I just installed the coreutils (http://gnuwin32.sourceforge.net/packages/coreutils.htm) package for windows....

ls works in powershell.

doas777
May 5th, 2010, 09:14 PM
ls works in powershell.
yeah thats what i thought last year, and it always worked for me until recently. I think it's because i used to have cygwin installed, or perhaps it's a difference in implementation between vista and win7.

last month however i got my new netbook, installed powershell, and got errors using unix commands, so when I came into work, I tried the same on my win7 dev box, with teh same error. after installing coreutils and adding it to the path however, I'm back to being able to smerge system commands again.
cheers

fatality_uk
May 5th, 2010, 09:15 PM
People that nag about using the cli is difficult, waste of time, old-fashion e.c.t. Is in-experienced users.

That does not know what they are talking about.

So I guess you are posting on this forum from Lynx?


Is in-experienced users
I do find it old fashioned. Guess I'm a super-noob!!!

98cwitr
May 5th, 2010, 09:16 PM
ls works in powershell.

powershell set to default shell now @ work...thanks :)

RiceMonster
May 5th, 2010, 10:45 PM
yeah thats what i thought last year, and it always worked for me until recently. I think it's because i used to have cygwin installed, or perhaps it's a difference in implementation between vista and win7.

last month however i got my new netbook, installed powershell, and got errors using unix commands, so when I came into work, I tried the same on my win7 dev box, with teh same error. after installing coreutils and adding it to the path however, I'm back to being able to smerge system commands again.
cheers

It might be a vista and 7 difference, because I've only tried it on 7. I don't have cygwin installed, so it's definitely not that.

nothingspecial
May 5th, 2010, 11:11 PM
I don`t know what you`re all arguing about.

The CLI is brilliant.

So are all the gui apps we have.

Use, abuse. modify......

......take what you are given and run with it.

That`s the whole point, isn't it?

fatality_uk
May 5th, 2010, 11:15 PM
I don`t know what you`re all arguing about.

The CLI is brilliant.

So are all the gui apps we have.

Use, abuse. modify......

......take what you are given and run with it.

That`s the whole point, isn't it?

Here Here :p

juancarlospaco
May 5th, 2010, 11:18 PM
So writing a script to import a photo, create a new layer to add text, paste in text taken from a OpenOffice doc, add that text and colour it red, yellow and green, then change the font for each letter, then add a drop shadow to the text, select the top right quarter of the photo and add Gaussian blur to it is easier in the CLI?

Yes
N photos with 1 command

If got Python skills you can do that, massively and faster,
over SSH from anywhere in the world.

murderslastcrow
May 5th, 2010, 11:31 PM
Unless you're installing the one line for DVD encryption (which is illegal, by the way), there's no reason you should ever need to use the terminal in Ubuntu. It's just that, since many of us were around when it was simpler to do some things with the terminal than without, we still give our suggestions in the support forums as terminal commands, since it's easier than saying, "well, go click on this over here, then click over there, then open this."

It's just easier to say, "type sudo gedit /etc/default/grub.d" or something like that, than to say open root nautilus windows and browse to this, open it up, blah blah blah.

Terminal commands mean you don't really have to explain to the user what's going on, it's just copy and paste, which is much easier than making them click through a ton of interfaces and do stuff like that. It just is.

So it's a useful tool, but you DON'T need it, if you fear it. However, it's really easy to use, especially if you learn a few tiny commands to help you along, so feel free to experiment if you're interested. Unless you learn specifically how to screw up your system, all you'll be doing is moving through folders and stuff.

And if you don't wanna' use it or learn about it, don't. You don't have to, same situation as Windows, except our terminal isn't crippled and incapable like theirs.

sudoer541
May 6th, 2010, 12:33 AM
I have to disagree!!! :p
I mean whats easier to drag a file into a folder or to etite a command to move it ?
LOL look at the difference, dragging a file into a folder VS writing a sentence to accomplish the same task... thats ridiculous!!!:p

conclusion: The CLI is not for average home users(97% + of computer users), but only for server admins etc.

marshmallow1304
May 6th, 2010, 01:10 AM
the one line for DVD encryption (which is illegal, by the way)
Only in some countries (the ones with very silly laws).


conclusion: The CLI is not for average home users(97% + of computer users), but only for server admins etc.

The CLI is for whoever wants to put in the effort to learn how to use it. For those people, server admins or not, the CLI is a fast, useful, and flexible tool.



If I have a bunch of files of many different types in a folder and I want to move all the mp3s to a music folder; which is faster - going through the folder in nautilus while holding Ctrl and clicking all the mp3s, then dragging them to the music folder or

mv ~/somefiles/*.mp3 ~/Music

fatality_uk
May 6th, 2010, 08:05 AM
Yes
N photos with 1 command

If got Python skills you can do that, massively and faster,
over SSH from anywhere in the world.

Feel free to post a scrip here later today! ):P

v1ad
May 6th, 2010, 08:29 AM
In Defense* of.

after using linux and the CLI i fell in love with it.

Linuxforall
May 6th, 2010, 08:31 AM
nautilus-gksu solves that issue, no more cli for moving or copying or deleting system files and folders but it does come at a risk, dist upgrade and install is fastest with cli but synaptic is pretty slick as well.

Bodsda
May 6th, 2010, 01:59 PM
It's not! In a GUI I can do that in seconds, to write a PyScript that would take minutes not including debugging.

As I said, I have to administer a SCO 5 UNIX server for a living so I know the CLI in depth both UNIX and Linux.

But that script can be used over and over again. 30mins to write it, 30 seconds to apply its functionality to thousands of images.


I don`t know what you`re all arguing about.

The CLI is brilliant.

So are all the gui apps we have.

Use, abuse. modify......

......take what you are given and run with it.

That`s the whole point, isn't it?

I thought the point was that you dont have to take what your given, throw it away, burn it, get a different one, change it, use it...


Unless you're installing the one line for DVD encryption (which is illegal, by the way), there's no reason you should ever need to use the terminal in Ubuntu. It's just that, since many of us were around when it was simpler to do some things with the terminal than without, we still give our suggestions in the support forums as terminal commands, since it's easier than saying, "well, go click on this over here, then click over there, then open this."

It's just easier to say, "type sudo gedit /etc/default/grub.d" or something like that, than to say open root nautilus windows and browse to this, open it up, blah blah blah.

Terminal commands mean you don't really have to explain to the user what's going on, it's just copy and paste, which is much easier than making them click through a ton of interfaces and do stuff like that. It just is.

So it's a useful tool, but you DON'T need it, if you fear it. However, it's really easy to use, especially if you learn a few tiny commands to help you along, so feel free to experiment if you're interested. Unless you learn specifically how to screw up your system, all you'll be doing is moving through folders and stuff.

And if you don't wanna' use it or learn about it, don't. You don't have to, same situation as Windows, except our terminal isn't crippled and incapable like theirs.

And when X wont load and your stuck on tty1, still think you dont need the CLI?


I have to disagree!!! :p
I mean whats easier to drag a file into a folder or to etite a command to move it ?
LOL look at the difference, dragging a file into a folder VS writing a sentence to accomplish the same task... thats ridiculous!!!:p

conclusion: The CLI is not for average home users(97% + of computer users), but only for server admins etc.

Writing a command is quicker and easier, I can write the command quicker then loading nautilus and browsing to the folder. And where do these numbers keep popping up from, 95%, 97%... anyone got any justification for these rediculous numbers?


Feel free to post a scrip here later today! ):P

Oh dear.. someone else who wants everything done for them. If you want to do it, learn, dont just ask for a script, ask for help.


nautilus-gksu solves that issue, no more cli for moving or copying or deleting system files and folders but it does come at a risk, dist upgrade and install is fastest with cli but synaptic is pretty slick as well.

Your justification is that you can launch a file manager with root privileges. It still takes twice as long as doing it via CLI.

I do use graphical programs, but only when I don't know the CLI alternative.

Bodsda

nothingspecial
May 6th, 2010, 02:04 PM
I thought the point was that you dont have to take what your given, throw it away, burn it, get a different one, change it, use it...





That what I said. By take what you are given I meant linux itself and the tools to modify your instalation in to whatever you want it to be.

Linuxforall
May 6th, 2010, 02:06 PM
I just posted an alternative and not justification, I also added the caveat, personally I use CLI for install and updates instead of Synaptic, however with naultilus-gksu, it sometimes makes it easier to go through subfolders and also makes it quicker.

fatality_uk
May 6th, 2010, 04:02 PM
But that script can be used over and over again. 30mins to write it, 30 seconds to apply its functionality to thousands of images.

Oh come one!!! You are right, that will work well for 1,000 images that ALL require the same processing, but if you want make a lot of different changes to lots of different files, GUI is the way to go.


Oh dear.. someone else who wants everything done for them. If you want to do it, learn, don't just ask for a script, ask for help.

Really. Perhaps you didn't read my other posts. I can write bash, py and other scripts I administer a SCO UNIX box for a living so the lack of a GUI ain't a problem to me. I was merely pointing out that tasks such as image editing are easier using a GUI. I don't need a script for that, I have GIMP.

swoll1980
May 6th, 2010, 04:20 PM
Command lines are for servers, and administrators. There is no reason a user would ever want to, or have to use a Command line. This is reason why the GUI was such a popular innovation, and why it is so widely used. It allows people with limited knowledge of computers to be productive with them. The myth that you have to know the CLI to use Linux needs to be killed already.

sudoer541
May 6th, 2010, 07:12 PM
Only in some countries (the ones with very silly laws).



The CLI is for whoever wants to put in the effort to learn how to use it. For those people, server admins or not, the CLI is a fast, useful, and flexible tool.



If I have a bunch of files of many different types in a folder and I want to move all the mp3s to a music folder; which is faster - going through the folder in nautilus while holding Ctrl and clicking all the mp3s, then dragging them to the music folder or

mv ~/somefiles/*.mp3 ~/Music



Nooo LOL its easier to drag and drop the file instead of writing a whole novel to accomplish a simple task LOL!!:p):P
who uses the CLI today anyway? Only 5% of computer users use it + businesses.

K.Mandla
May 6th, 2010, 08:34 PM
Fear the CLI. :twisted:

NightwishFan
May 6th, 2010, 08:39 PM
CLI is amazing. I was astounded how intuitive it is when the basics are mastered.

qamelian
May 6th, 2010, 08:41 PM
Command lines are for servers, and administrators. There is no reason a user would ever want to, or have to use a Command line. This is reason why the GUI was such a popular innovation, and why it is so widely used. It allows people with limited knowledge of computers to be productive with them. The myth that you have to know the CLI to use Linux needs to be killed already.
Well, that's just wrong. Even when I'm just in end-user mode, I still make use of the CLI for a lot of things because for some tasks it really is better or faster than a GUI. If doing some thing via point & click is going to take me measurably longer than doing the same task via CLI, you can bet I'm going command line. Some task really do lend themselves better to one interface method over the other, and GUI is not always the best tool for the job. It might be what you're most comfortable with, but that doesn't mean it's the best tool.

nothingspecial
May 6th, 2010, 08:53 PM
What about if you wanted to move every .flac file in your Home directory where ever it is to a backup drive called /media/music


find ~/ -name *.flac -exec mv '{}' /media/music/ \;

That`s got to be quicker than doing it manually, however slow you type.

Or remove every file in your mp3 directory that is not an mp3


find /media/music/mp3 -type f \! -name "*.mp3" -exec rm '{}' \;

That is not a novel, but you could have read one while you did it with your mouse if your mp3 directory is big enough.

malspa
May 6th, 2010, 09:02 PM
Command lines are for servers, and administrators. There is no reason a user would ever want to, or have to use a Command line.

Well, on my computer, I am both the only user and the only administrator. I'm glad that I have both CLI and GUI options.


The myth that you have to know the CLI to use Linux needs to be killed already.

I don't think you necessarily have to know the CLI to use Linux, but it certainly helps. It makes life easier to be able to go back and forth between GUI and CLI in Linux, whenever you need or want to use one or the other. Being able to use the CLI gives you more tools at your disposal. I find it hard to understand why anyone would not be able to see that, unless they have just never taken the time to learn to use the CLI, for whatever reason.



The CLI is for whoever wants to put in the effort to learn how to use it. For those people, server admins or not, the CLI is a fast, useful, and flexible tool.

Yep.

malspa
May 6th, 2010, 09:12 PM
In Linux, you have this great tool (CLI) at your fingertips. If you want to ignore it, that's your choice... but those people who take the time to learn to use it are better off, no matter what GUI-only people think.

fatality_uk
May 6th, 2010, 09:28 PM
What about if you wanted to move every .flac file in your Home directory where ever it is to a backup drive called /media/music


find ~/ -name *.flac -exec mv '{}' /media/music/ \;

That`s got to be quicker than doing it manually, however slow you type.

Or remove every file in your mp3 directory that is not an mp3


find /media/music/mp3 -type f \! -name "*.mp3" -exec rm '{}' \;

That is not a novel, but you could have read one while you did it with your mouse if your mp3 directory is big enough.

All the "batch" type examples are great, however, I bet a can create a complex graphic svg file with text and fades in Inkscape faster than creating it using the CLI, or am I wrong?

Totally right about moving files etc, much faster using CLI

fatality_uk
May 6th, 2010, 09:38 PM
we do like lynx, youtube is a bit of a bugger though :D

aysiu
May 6th, 2010, 09:51 PM
I don't see what there is to argue about.

Ideally, all common tasks could be accomplished via point and click and terminal commands.

That way, if you prefer to use the terminal, you can. And if you prefer to point and click, you can.

It isn't an either/or situation. It's a both situation. And if it isn't in some areas, those areas should be fixed.

Even in terms of offering tech support, which you use really depends on the situation:
The GUI v. CLI Debate (http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntucat/the-gui-v-cli-debate/)

malspa
May 6th, 2010, 10:02 PM
I'm assuming that there are lots of things that can be done from the command line for which there's no GUI equivalent. I don't know for sure if that's true or not. When I look at something like man rsync, my impression is that there isn't a GUI out there that can do everything that you can do with rsync from the command line. Further, I'm thinking that it would be a huge undertaking to develop GUI answers to everything that can be done at the Linux command line, that it would take more time and effort than people are willing to put into it.

Am I wrong about all that? What do other folks think?

fatality_uk
May 6th, 2010, 10:08 PM
I don't see what there is to argue about.

Ideally, all common tasks could be accomplished via point and click and terminal commands.

That way, if you prefer to use the terminal, you can. And if you prefer to point and click, you can.

It isn't an either/or situation. It's a both situation. And if it isn't in some areas, those areas should be fixed.

Even in terms of offering tech support, which you use really depends on the situation:
The GUI v. CLI Debate (http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntucat/the-gui-v-cli-debate/)

I agree completely aysiu however, it's the inferred perception that unless you use the CLI for most tasks, that you somehow are an inexperienced or "lesser" Linux user. I have had this impression at a few LUG meetings I have attended. Couple of years ago, I opened my laptop, fired up Gutsy and prepared to help with an install day. My fellow Linux users almost sneered!!

fatality_uk
May 6th, 2010, 10:10 PM
I'm assuming that there are lots of things that can be done from the command line for which there's no GUI equivalent. I don't know for sure if that's true or not. When I look at something like man rsync, my impression is that there isn't a GUI out there that can do everything that you can do with rsync from the command line. Further, I'm thinking that it would be a huge undertaking to develop GUI answers to everything that can be done at the Linux command line, that it would take more time and effort than people are willing to put into it.

Am I wrong about all that? What do other folks think?
Do you use a GUI at all? Gnome, KDE, XCFE?

You could also reverse you entire statement with the same result.

The Real Dave
May 6th, 2010, 10:27 PM
I agree completely aysiu however, it's the inferred perception that unless you use the CLI for most tasks, that you somehow are an inexperienced or "lesser" Linux user. I have had this impression at a few LUG meetings I have attended. Couple of years ago, I opened my laptop, fired up Gutsy and prepared to help with an install day. My fellow Linux users almost sneered!!

Some distro's seem to attract those kinds of people, Arch for example. Nothing at all against the distro or it's users [I'm one :P], but that kind of "GUI Shunning" is common in distro's where you build from the CLI up. Minimalism [or Lessisim?] is often prefered.

I'm on the fence. I use both GUI and CLI in equal proportions. If I'm editing configs, I'm most likely using Nano, rather than gedit or leafpad. I use rTorrent instead of Transmission. I find bash scripts extremely useful in achieving otherwise tedious tasks.

However, I prefer Firefox to Elinks, Openbox or even Gnome to screen, and definitely prefer GIMP to however you edit an image in CLI.

It's a balance. Some people prefer typing and find that faster [me usually], other's are allergic to it.

Personally, setting up an Ubuntu Server was what really showed me the power of CLI. That said, it took ~ 1 year before I got as proficient as I am now.

One thing I do love about Linux is that you can if you wish strip it back to a basic CLI, even Ubuntu, which some deem "bloated". The choice, as in almost everything in Linux, is yours. The one thing you don't get to choose, is what other people do with theirs. And thank [insert applicable Deity/Word here] for that.

aysiu
May 6th, 2010, 10:27 PM
I agree completely aysiu however, it's the inferred perception that unless you use the CLI for most tasks, that you somehow are an inexperienced or "lesser" Linux user. I have had this impression at a few LUG meetings I have attended. Couple of years ago, I opened my laptop, fired up Gutsy and prepared to help with an install day. My fellow Linux users almost sneered!! That's unfortunate. It shouldn't be that way.


I'm assuming that there are lots of things that can be done from the command line for which there's no GUI equivalent. I don't know for sure if that's true or not. When I look at something like man rsync, my impression is that there isn't a GUI out there that can do everything that you can do with rsync from the command line. Further, I'm thinking that it would be a huge undertaking to develop GUI answers to everything that can be done at the Linux command line, that it would take more time and effort than people are willing to put into it.

Am I wrong about all that? What do other folks think? Well, it doesn't do everything command-line rsync does, but there is a graphical program called grsync

It isn't necessary that there is a GUI for everything, only for common tasks.

The Real Dave
May 6th, 2010, 10:39 PM
Fear the CLI. :twisted:

How did I know you'd turn up here? ;)

MisfitI38
May 7th, 2010, 03:29 AM
Think of it this way:
When we are small, we point at the pictures.
When we grow up, we learn to read and write using alpha-numeric characters.
:biggrin:

renkinjutsu
May 7th, 2010, 04:22 AM
dont like to use the CLI cuz we want to use our computers to accomplish a task quickly with the mouse.
The rest of us like to get things done quickly using the CLI. No one said GUI is the future. the CLI is timeless. It'll never go away.

the GUI is easier for the average user cuz people dont want to memorize commands to use their computer
The Op also mentioned that the CLI makes supporting people easier.. the fact that you can tell someone to type a certain command or even write a script to fix their problem is amazing. You don't have to memorize commands if you don't want to, a lot of us on the forums build our CLI skills so that we can troubleshoot problems and help users. It'd be kinda hard supporting someone through their GUI.. "There should be an 'applications' menu at the top left of your screen" ... "oh.. you don't have one but you're running gnome?" .. *couple posts later "okay now click that little green thing in the corner" .. "I don't have the green thing and i'm not using nautilus, i'm using dolphin with gnome"


well.. you see where i'm going with this.. i can't come up with a totally random example off the top of my head.

I just point and click on an icon and my tasks are done with minimal effort etc. OTOH on a CLI you have to type, type and type!!!
Some things are easy with just point and click. I wouldn't want to run chromium by opening up a terminal and typing in the path to the executable.. i just click the icon i put on the panel! But for some things like deleting backups written by nano, vim, or gedit or renaming a bunch of files, it's easier to use the cli. With the gui, you would have to find file, right click, click rename, move your hand back to the keyboard to rename it, then move on to the next file.

OTOH on a CLI you have to type, type and type!!! (which is not bad if you have the time and patience
I don't have patience, that's why i use CLI for a lot of things =] .. plus, i have a pretty big monitor, so it's a pain to have to move my mouse around it, and i set the cursor to move too quickly, i won't be able to control it.. 24" monitor! .. or was it 22" .. can't remember the details

However I find GUI easier than CLI all the way!!!:p
For some things.. like i would NEVER web browse in the CLI.. but i think this thread is more about administration and maintaining a system with efficiency.

Home PC users escaped from the CLI in 1995 and they dont want to go back to 1990s again cuz the time goes forward not backwards
Don't upset K.Mandla D;

Chronon
May 7th, 2010, 08:21 AM
nvm

fatality_uk
May 7th, 2010, 09:07 AM
Think of it this way:
When we are small, we point at the pictures.
When we grow up, we learn to read and write using alpha-numeric characters.
:biggrin:

:rolleyes:

frncz
May 7th, 2010, 09:25 AM
Well, there are some wonderful contributions here, and I learned quite a few CLI commands!
Can someone direct me to a good guide to CLI commands (with explanations)? I'm trying to write them down in a note book (real paper, with a pencil!) but this does seem a bit backwards

And how do you access the forum in a tty!?

fatality_uk
May 7th, 2010, 10:48 AM
http://linuxmanpages.com/ is a very good resource for learning the CLI commands

Khakilang
May 7th, 2010, 11:00 AM
I am from an old school of DOS. Sometime I still use "fdisk" and "format" DOS command to check on old hard disk. The last time I try CLI. I got all broken dependencies. Will try again. Damn! The GUI is so tempting.

fatality_uk
May 7th, 2010, 11:14 AM
I would hazzard a guess that the vast majority of those "HardCore" Linux users contributing to this thread wont be posting from Lynx ;)

Greg
May 7th, 2010, 11:33 AM
I would hazzard a guess that the vast majority of those "HardCore" Linux users contributing to this thread wont be posting from Lynx ;)

Why use lynx when there's elinks, which is much better, and emacs-w3m, which is in Emacs?

Bodsda
May 7th, 2010, 01:43 PM
I would hazzard a guess that the vast majority of those "HardCore" Linux users contributing to this thread wont be posting from Lynx ;)

Correct, because, as has been noted many times already in this thread, the GUI has its place, web browsing is much more commonly done through a graphical browser. That does not mean one or the other is better.


Why use lynx when there's elinks, which is much better, and emacs-w3m, which is in Emacs?

Emacs, you heathen :) VIM FTW!!!

Bodsda

nothingspecial
May 7th, 2010, 02:02 PM
type examples are great, however, I bet a can create a complex graphic svg file with text and fades in Inkscape faster than creating it using the CLI, or am I wrong?


No, of course your right.

There are also aliases (is that how you spell it?)


alias slide='sshfs -o idmap=user me@192.168.1.11:/media/backup/photos ~/pics && feh -rzF -D 3 ~/pics'

Ok, so I`ve had to edit .bashrc and put it in there, but now every time I want to have a fullscreen, random slideshow of all the photos backed up on my server, displayed on my great big telly, I just type "slide".

That`s got to be more efficient than pointing and clicking.

Oh, and I`m not some hardcore command line zealot, I`m typing this in firefox, I have open office open and I`m listening to my tunes with Guayadeque.

But I am also rtorrenting lucid 64bit desktop, and wgetting something.

Choice is the key here.

fatality_uk
May 7th, 2010, 02:09 PM
Correct, because, as has been noted many times already in this thread, the GUI has its place, web browsing is much more commonly done through a graphical browser. That does not mean one or the other is better.



Emacs, you heathen :) VIM FTW!!!

Bodsda

Which is the point I have made a few times, however, some have tried to retort that virtually all tasks are quicker with eh command line, which is eminently wrong.

malspa
May 7th, 2010, 06:29 PM
I'm assuming that there are lots of things that can be done from the command line for which there's no GUI equivalent. I don't know for sure if that's true or not. When I look at something like man rsync, my impression is that there isn't a GUI out there that can do everything that you can do with rsync from the command line. Further, I'm thinking that it would be a huge undertaking to develop GUI answers to everything that can be done at the Linux command line, that it would take more time and effort than people are willing to put into it.

Am I wrong about all that? What do other folks think?


Do you use a GUI at all? Gnome, KDE, XCFE?

Of course I do. Currently using all three of the above, in different distros.


You could also reverse you entire statement with the same result.

Yeah, there are some things that I can do with the GUI that I can't easily do from the command line -- if I can do them at all. An example that comes to mind is getting a thumbnail preview of a .jpg file by hovering over the filename with the cursor in Konqueror.

But I'm guessing that most of the time it's the other way around -- more often it's the GUI that's lacking some of the options that are available at the command line.

angry_johnnie
May 7th, 2010, 08:35 PM
I remember ages ago, when I first started using computers, one would turn the computer on and boot straight to a command prompt. One had to know what one was doing back then.

It wasn't until some years later when GUI became the standard for pretty much everything. And, even then, I would say up until the late 90's, it was still quite useful to be familiar with a command line. Fixing Windows ME, for example, was a lot easier with some understanding of DOS.

And then we came about the 21st century and everything became point and click for almost everyone who used a computer. That, added to the fact that many people who hadn't used computers before started using them then, is the reason, I think, there's so much complaining about shells in general.

Back in the days when the command line was the standard, and one had to know what one was doing, using a computer must have seemed like some sort of obscure art for those who didn't know. So, those who didn't know, didn't learn. But, when GUI took over, computers stopped being this little obscure thing for the geeky, nerdy, bunch. All of a sudden, computers became friendly and understandable. One no longer had to actually know what one was doing. It was all wizards, and point, and click, and yes, and next.

In general, people migrating from windows, are familiar with GUI-based apps. Having to use a command line, must feel like going back in time 20 years or so. And then, the computer starts to look like that geeky, nerdy, obscure thing it used to be. That must be pretty uncomfortable.

I love shells of all kinds. But, I know where people who complain are coming from, and I can't blame them for complaining. Nobody has ever forced me to use GUI. Why would I force anyone to use the shell? Why would I even try to convince anyone how incredibly fun and useful it is? How would I feel if someone tried to convince me of how ridiculously anachronistic and unfashionable it is to use a shell, when there are so many cool GUI alternatives out there?

In the end, it all boils down to what one wants to do with one's computer. Freedom of choice means I get to choose, and so do you.

urgnom
May 7th, 2010, 09:29 PM
Well, if you keep hitting "ls" in Windows you can keep on doing so. The PowerShell accepts ls. Or you can just define a batch file called ls.bat that contains the single word dir. That was my way out of misery on XP (although I added some stuff for switches later on).

blur xc
May 7th, 2010, 10:40 PM
I have to disagree!!! :p
I mean whats easier to drag a file into a folder or to etite a command to move it ?


If you know what you are doing- typing the command, every time...

If you don't know what you are doing- just click drag all you want, and let us cli types be.

I know a guy that was handed an external usb hard disk with 128gigs of music on it. All the music is on it in two file formats - mp3's and m4a's (and who knows what else). He's going on and on about what a pain it will be the separate the music formats and only copy the ones he wants to his computer. I didn't say anything- don't want to be preachy, but it would be so simple in bash.

BM

edit- I'm getting the impression that you have really poor typing skills. Hunt and peck much? My apologies if I'm wrong...

blur xc
May 7th, 2010, 10:49 PM
Think of it this way:
When we are small, we point at the pictures.
When we grow up, we learn to read and write using alpha-numeric characters.
:biggrin:

Lol - permission to quote that in my sig line?

BM

aysiu
May 7th, 2010, 10:49 PM
If you know what you are doing- typing the command, every time...

If you don't know what you are doing- just click drag all you want, and let us cli types be.

I know a guy that was handed an external usb hard disk with 128gigs of music on it. All the music is on it in two file formats - mp3's and m4a's (and who knows what else). He's going on and on about what a pain it will be the separate the music formats and only copy the ones he wants to his computer. I didn't say anything- don't want to be preachy, but it would be so simple in bash.

BM
I know the general point you're trying to get across, but in that particular instance, it would be easy even in the GUI. You just do a search for everything, including subfolder. Then you sort the results by file type, highlight the MP3s and cut and paste them into one folder and then highlight the rest of the M4As and cut and paste them into another folder.

Ioky
May 8th, 2010, 01:58 AM
well. command line is old. but is much more advance. unless you are doing something that graphic is a must. computer work much better and faster with command line. If an OS ship without command line, and script language. I wouldn't use it. that is it. I can live with an OS without GUI though.

I mean just try to imagine you need to turn 10000 images's color to B/W, in GUI. You will have to go into a image edit, and hit edit BW, save it, yes, write over it, and so on.

In command line, I can do it with a single command.

days... or 5 second. I think this is pretty clear.

fatality_uk
May 8th, 2010, 02:15 PM
DropBox install.

Gui: Download deb, click, install, setup. Easy and very quick.

CLI: http://wiki.dropbox.com/TipsAndTricks/TextBasedLinuxInstall. Well, just read the page!

dragos240
May 8th, 2010, 02:52 PM
CLI is just awesome.

fatality_uk
May 8th, 2010, 04:00 PM
CLI is just awesome.

Totally agree, in the right circumstances.

thatguruguy
May 8th, 2010, 04:24 PM
Most computer users (me and 95% of this world) dont like to use the CLI cuz we want to use our computers to accomplish a task quickly with the mouse. We dont want to learn whats inside our OS and how it works. We just want our computers to work.

Don't presume to speak for anyone but yourself, please.

babybean
May 8th, 2010, 04:57 PM
I find it weird, I am from that generation which has grown up in a GUI world. Before trying ubuntu, I had hardly ever used the dose cmd. Learning to use this strange new tool is a fun experience, and it defiantly isnt a bad thing but I have to say, for more tasks I believe that I can still work quicker with a GUI. I am finding the more that I use the CLI, the more confident I become in it and productive it becomes.

fatality_uk
May 8th, 2010, 09:53 PM
Your level of productivity really depends on how you approach a task and the tols you choose.