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swoll1980
May 4th, 2010, 04:40 PM
The average computer user I know would never even think of trying to install an operating system. The average users I know are afraid to install an anti-virus program. The average users I know pay me to plug a cable into the back of their computer. The installation of Ubuntu is not a task that the average "I don't care about computers" person is going to be willing to do. . A noob is not an average computer user. Their knowledge of the gnu/Linux operating system is the same as an average users, but they hooked their own network up, they installed their own anti virus program. The noob is not afraid of their computer. The noob will search, and find solution to their problems. They are willing to install operating systems. All my friends, and family, other than those I go to school with, fall into the average user category. I have several friends, and family that trust me to maintain their computers. Almost all of them use their computers exclusively to surf the web, check their email, manage media, cameras, mp3 players, DVDs. I showed them Ubuntu, and they loved it.

Ubuntu is a solution for me. While the installation of any Linux distro, including Ubuntu, isn't always as smooth as "Just Works" There has never been a time where I couldn't get it to work 100% for everyone I tried it on. When I finish the installation, and configuration, I'm done. One time in 2 years I had to fix a problem with one of the installs loosing it's gnome-panel after an upgrade. This is an amazing improvement over the way it was when they were using Windows. I won't go into details,but I'm sure you can imagine. All of them love their Ubuntu installation, and can't imagine why more people don't use it. These people have support from me, and will always have a pleasant experience.

A noobs experience with Linux may very. The noob is dependent on only himself, and the Internet to solve his problems. Sometimes things aren't going to "Just Work". If anyone is fooling themselves into thinking any operating system is going to work on everyone's computer they're mistaken. If anyone is fooling themselves into thinking that a poorly supported operating system, is going to run every piece of hardware you could possibly plug into it, and it's going to work every time, they are mistaken. Again the people I support don't have to worry about this. I explained 3rd party support before hand, and they will ask me about hardware compatibility before they buy it. I will only recommend hardware that has 100% support for the Linux operating system. Again the noob doesn't have support. They have only themselves to make sure they buy hardware that has 100% support for Linux. At the same time they have only themselves to blame if they buy hardware that isn't supported.

Linux administration isn't easy. You have to have training. Whether you train yourself, or receive the training from some else. This isn't something that you're going to be born with. The way people come into these forums, and think they're going to be Linux system administrators over night never fails to amaze me. Not only is it extremely arrogant, but it's an insult to all of us that have spent countless hours training our selves to do these things. This isn't Windows alot of people seem to think that because they're A+ certified they should be able to administer a Linux system. That would be like me thinking I could jump into the cockpit, and fly, an airplane, because I know how to drive a car. They are not the same people! The sooner people realize this the easier it will be. Anyone can use an operating system, but if you want to administer one you better be willing to learn.

Lucid is not the worst Ubuntu ever. All this bloat people are talking about? They call that stuff features. Those average users, I was talking about; they have 45 programs running at startup. They have so many tool bars glued to their Internet Explorer 6.0 that you can't even find the web browser anymore. Those average users love that stuff. Anyone that's been around for a while knows not to grab a iso fresh off of a release, unless they're willing to deal with some bugs. As an administrator, I would never install this on someone's machine. I have them update their machines 6 months after a release, to make sure I don't have to deal with it. The noobs only have themselves to determine what Linux distro is right for what they want in their operating system. They only have themselves to blame, if they choose a distro that isn't in line with what they want. If you don't like 6 month release cycles, Ubuntu isn't for you. If your a ramaphobe, or you just want something lighter Ubuntu isn't for you. There are many distros, with many different goals. Do yourself a favor, and choose one that's for you. Choosing a distro that isn't for you, then complaining that it needs to change to suite you, is a ridiculous request.

Mark knows what he's doing. He is accomplishing all the goals he set for Ubuntu. The user base is increasing every release. No matter how many people complain, or how many worst release ever threads I see, the users continue to increase. Whether you want to give him credit or not, whatever he is doing is working. If it's not broke don't fix. It's only a matter of time before we get real support, and preinstalled Linux machine start making their way into the main stream. One day their will be a little penguin next to every butterfly, on every piece of hardware you see.

jetsam
May 4th, 2010, 05:07 PM
Yeah. There's a lot of administrative wisdom in this post. I think you're only missing out on the development perspective a bit with the end...

"If it ain't broke don't fix it..." It's a sane attitude that comes from, I think, the proprietary software world. I'd just add, "if it ain't broke, leave it alone or make it better..." and then you end up back at the beginning. Iterate, and it's something like a six month release cycle where you can almost set your stop watch as to when the first "This release is the worstest release EVER" post will arrive in the cafe.

It would be interesting to see aggregate stats on the number of forum posts following each release, and see charts of how the moaning ebbs and flows...

iduppe
May 4th, 2010, 05:17 PM
this is the way i see it too :)

Phrea
May 4th, 2010, 05:28 PM
tl;dr: swoll1980 maintains some computers for family and friends, who are average users, not noobs because noobs depend on themselves. And Lucid is perfectly fine, 6 months from now.

;)

Rasa1111
May 4th, 2010, 05:40 PM
well said swoll.
i agree mate.

Ubuntu is definitely the system for me,
n00b and all.

and from my experiences with it the last 6 months or so...
i now have no desire to even try anything else.
mac, no thanks..
windows.. No
fedora.. is nice, but not for me
mint..is nice, but not for me...
mandriva.. nah, thanks though..
........
........
lol

Ubuntu is amazing.

and you know, swoll....

admittedly... I wasnt "too sure" about you after your "ubuntu should sell adspace in USC" thread... lol

but after reading all [yes, All] lol , of your posts in Kiwis thread...
and reading your words here....
I would be glad to call you 'friend'. lol :)

well done. *

98cwitr
May 4th, 2010, 05:43 PM
so how do you get around the iTunes delimma for the "mp3 players?" Assuming one of these people have an iPod.

sandyd
May 4th, 2010, 05:54 PM
so how do you get around the iTunes delimma for the "mp3 players?" Assuming one of these people have an iPod.

take a look around on google. you can run ipods/iphones/iwhatevers on karmic as well. its just not OOB

cariboo
May 4th, 2010, 05:58 PM
I agree with much of what swoll1980 says, despite what more vocal users are saying about Lucid, it is a good release, most of the problems that are showing up are the same type we get every release.

@98cwitr

I don't use an ipod/iphone but if you look in the now closed Lucid discussion sub-forum and the Lucid experience thread, many users have found their devices work out of the box.

swoll1980
May 4th, 2010, 06:02 PM
so how do you get around the iTunes delimma for the "mp3 players?" Assuming one of these people have an iPod.

I don't know anyone that uses itunes. They all had gigantic music libraries before they ever knew what an ipod was. To manage the ipod they use rhythmbox. Doesn't the latest version of Ubuntu have support for itunes? That's not the point anyways. In order to get third party support Ubuntu has to get more users, which is the point.

Viva
May 4th, 2010, 06:03 PM
We just need to get George Clooney or Brad Pitt to use an ubuntu laptop in a movie.

Chromagnum
May 4th, 2010, 06:07 PM
We just need to get George Clooney or Brad Pitt to use an ubuntu laptop in a movie.

LOL. I like that idea.

jetsam
May 4th, 2010, 06:24 PM
We just need to get George Clooney or Brad Pitt to use an ubuntu laptop in a movie.
Angelina Jolie.

or... whatsername.

Hugh Grant, that's the one.

98cwitr
May 4th, 2010, 06:45 PM
I don't know anyone that uses itunes. They all had gigantic music libraries before they ever knew what an ipod was. To manage the ipod they use rhythmbox. Doesn't the latest version of Ubuntu have support for itunes? That's not the point anyways. In order to get third party support Ubuntu has to get more users, which is the point.

no, I can get my gf's ipod to work fine...but she always bought music through iTunes Store...I tried talking her into rhapsody or some other pay-for sites, but she liked the interface with iTunes and is skittish to put her credit card on a lot of sites. I've tried to convince her otherwise, but I am met with some resistance. All that said, I would really like to find a way to get iTunes to work.

Point is, my gf is this stereotypical average user...she likes having Ubuntu on her computer, and other than the ipod thing, she loves it...just need to get her assimilated into putting music on the ipod through another source...but she doesn't want to.

jetsam
May 4th, 2010, 06:54 PM
The Romantic Misadventures of Steve Carell and...

...Steven Segal...

...and...

no not her!

...

um.

nvrmind.

aysiu
May 4th, 2010, 07:02 PM
The average computer user I know would never even think of trying to install an operating system.
Mark knows what he's doing. He is accomplishing all the goals he set for Ubuntu. The user base is increasing every release. No matter how many people complain, or how many worst release ever threads I see, the users continue to increase. Whether you want to give him credit or not, whatever he is doing is working. If it's not broke don't fix. Eh, I disagree. As you have stated above, the average computer would never even think of trying to install an operating system. How does Ubuntu get on computers? Well, primarily by new users installing it themselves. Ubuntu has made great strides in its interface over the last five years, but it hasn't made much of a dent in fixing Bug #1.

It has to be more of an open source version of Apple (http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntucat/ubuntu-the-open-source-apple-challenger/) to get anywhere, because God knows Ubuntu will not magically get the third-party support that Windows has.

swoll1980
May 4th, 2010, 07:08 PM
Eh, I disagree. As you have stated above, the average computer would never even think of trying to install an operating system. How does Ubuntu get on computers?

I explained that in my post. That's why I made it so long, so I could try to answer to these things in advance, but in order for that to work you have to read the whole thing.

aysiu
May 4th, 2010, 07:10 PM
I explained that in my post. That's why I made it so long, so I could try to answer to these things in advance, but in order for that to work you have to read the whole thing.
I read it.

Don't assume I didn't read it just because I don't agree with it.

swoll1980
May 4th, 2010, 07:14 PM
I read it.

Don't assume I didn't read it just because I don't agree with it.

I assumed you didn't read it, because you're asking me a question, that I already answered. Don't imply that I didn't answer your question, because you don't like my answer please.

Tristam Green
May 4th, 2010, 07:55 PM
I explained that in my post. That's why I made it so long, so I could try to answer to these things in advance, but in order for that to work you have to read the whole thing.


I assumed you didn't read it, because you're asking me a question, that I already answered. Don't imply that I didn't answer your question, because you don't like my answer please.

Be a little more condescending next time, really.

You're really lending yourself a lot of credibility by not addressing what aysiu's bringing up, rather than throwing a "you'd know this if you read it" rhetoric in his face.

Out of every single person in this thread, aysiu seems likely to be the only one who would *actually* read the entire thing.

swoll1980
May 4th, 2010, 07:59 PM
Be a little more condescending next time, really.

You're really lending yourself a lot of credibility by not addressing what aysiu's bringing up, rather than throwing a "you'd know this if you read it" rhetoric in his face.

Out of every single person in this thread, aysiu seems likely to be the only one who would *actually* read the entire thing.

What are you talking about? I answered the question in full. There's nothing more I can add to my response to that. I'm not going to retype the whole thread to answer questions I've already answered. The whole thread explained who the people were that are installing Ubuntu. I don't see anyway how some who read the thread could be confused about my views on this.

Tristam Green
May 4th, 2010, 08:08 PM
What are you talking about? I answered the question in full. There's nothing more I can add to my response to that. I'm not going to retype the whole thread to answer questions I've already answered. The whole thread explained who the people were that are installing Ubuntu. I don't see anyway how some who read the thread could be confused about my views on this.

Then why even dignify it with a response, swoll? If you answered his question pre-emptively in full, be the bigger guy and just don't say anything and let your OP speak for itself. Seriously, this is Forum Posting 101.

swoll1980
May 4th, 2010, 08:13 PM
Then why even dignify it with a response, swoll? If you answered his question pre-emptively in full, be the bigger guy and just don't say anything and let your OP speak for itself. Seriously, this is Forum Posting 101.

I don't think you Understand. The entire post explains who I believe is installing Ubuntu. It would be like if I wrote 5 paragraphs on why I like the color purple, and some one replies "but why do you like the color purple?"

iduppe
May 4th, 2010, 08:16 PM
I read it.

Don't assume I didn't read it just because I don't agree with it.

dude, re-read the text, the answer is there

Tristam Green
May 4th, 2010, 08:17 PM
I don't think you Understand. The entire post explains who I believe is installing Ubuntu. It would be like if I wrote 5 paragraphs on why I like the color purple, and some one replies "but why do you like the color purple?"

I don't think *you* understand. Puffing your chest out defiantly after writing what was actually a pretty well-written OP pretty much detracts from any professionalism you had initially. It makes you look like someone picking a fight.

And I know about picking some fights.

Rasa1111
May 4th, 2010, 08:19 PM
Out of every single person in this thread, aysiu seems likely to be the only one who would *actually* read the entire thing.you talk about condescending
and then go and be judgmental. :lol: niice.

well, you are wrong.

swoll1980
May 4th, 2010, 08:20 PM
I don't think *you* understand. Puffing your chest out defiantly after writing what was actually a pretty well-written OP pretty much detracts from any professionalism you had initially. It makes you look like someone picking a fight.

And I know about picking some fights.
If you say so. Sorry if it offended you in some way.

Tristam Green
May 4th, 2010, 08:23 PM
you talk about condescending
and then go and be judgmental. :lol: niice.

well, you are wrong.

Difference is, I make no bones about my condescension when I do use it.


If you say so. Sorry if it offended you in some way.

No worries, this is one of those "just sayin'" incidents where I'd say if you really wanted someone to take what you're saying in the OP seriously, let other people do the "how about you read the OP" posting instead of yourself.

No hard(er than usual) feelings.

cbecker78
May 4th, 2010, 08:24 PM
+1 on itunes. It is the one thing my some people will not bend on. Even though bloody apple will hijack next to every file extension on your computer every time you update... they just gotta have their itunes ipod management. To some extent I don't blame them as managing playlists and purchasing music are not as straight forward in linux (based on what I have looked at).

The other major problem seems to be that most people I have talked to about linux are not just getting started. They have a pc and a set of peripherals that they are using, and switching to linux for them would only be a go if all of those peripheral are still working just fine after the switch. What would you do if you switch them over and their scanner just does not have an available driver?

lisati
May 4th, 2010, 08:25 PM
Please!

Some parts of this thread are beginning to remind me of some interactions I've had with a "character" I've met: said "character" thinks Ubuntu is a game, setting up a web server and email server is an "experiment", and when I've typed up what I thought was a well thought-out and coherent response to something that came up on another forum, he misses the point completely and .....

Never mind. I'm beginning to rant.

Tristam Green
May 4th, 2010, 08:27 PM
Never mind. I'm beginning to rant.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/0a/Palpatine_ROTJ.jpg/250px-Palpatine_ROTJ.jpg

Good! Gooooooood! Your hate has made you STRONG.

:D

lisati
May 4th, 2010, 08:32 PM
Good! Gooooooood! Your hate has made you STRONG.

:D

:lolflag:

swoll1980
May 4th, 2010, 08:39 PM
+1 on itunes. It is the one thing my some people will not bend on. Even though bloody apple will hijack next to every file extension on your computer every time you update... they just gotta have their itunes ipod management. To some extent I don't blame them as managing playlists and purchasing music are not as straight forward in linux (based on what I have looked at).

The other major problem seems to be that most people I have talked to about linux are not just getting started. They have a pc and a set of peripherals that they are using, and switching to linux for them would only be a go if all of those peripheral are still working just fine after the switch. What would you do if you switch them over and their scanner just does not have an available driver?

I would tell them there hardware isn't compatible, and that they would have to buy something different if they want to run Ubuntu. If the the problems they are having aren't worth buying new hardware Ubuntu isn't for them. I have never had a piece of hardware that flat out will not work though, so if there's a will there's a way. Not saying that there aren't situations where things just won't work, but I just haven't run into it yet. Until we get better support it will always be like this.

Rasa1111
May 4th, 2010, 08:40 PM
Difference is, I make no bones about my condescension when I do use it.
.

cool, whatever makes you feel better about it. :P

aysiu
May 4th, 2010, 09:12 PM
I assumed you didn't read it, because you're asking me a question, that I already answered. Don't imply that I didn't answer your question, because you don't like my answer please. My question was rhetorical. I answered it myself in the very next sentence. I don't know why you chose to quote only the question itself and not my own answer to it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhetorical_question

jetsam
May 4th, 2010, 09:16 PM
Let me Google some things for every nice person here.

Civility (http://www.google.com/search?q=civility&sourceid=mozilla-search&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=mozilla&rls=com.puppylinux:en-US:unofficial)
vs.
Bickering (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=mozilla&rls=com.puppylinux%3Aen-US%3Aunofficial&q=bickering&aq=f&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=)

<flees>

koenn
May 4th, 2010, 09:22 PM
Let me Google some things for every nice person here.

Civility (http://www.google.com/search?q=civility&sourceid=mozilla-search&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=mozilla&rls=com.puppylinux:en-US:unofficial)
vs.
Bickering (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=mozilla&rls=com.puppylinux%3Aen-US%3Aunofficial&q=bickering&aq=f&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=)

<flees>

And the winner is .....
http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=Civility&word2=Bickering

swoll1980
May 4th, 2010, 09:24 PM
My question was rhetorical. I answered it myself in the very next sentence. I don't know why you chose to quote only the question itself and not my own answer to it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhetorical_question

You just have a different definition of what an average user is. I made very clear what my defeniton of an average user is. The people that are afraid to install anti-virus, and plug a cable into their computer are not going to install an operating system. Do you disagree? By taking only the very first sentence out of my opening paragraph, and using it in your reply you left the door open for it to be taken out of context. See how that works?

KiwiNZ
May 4th, 2010, 09:25 PM
This area is intended for fun and community building, not arguments. Please take those elsewhere. Thanks!

Closed for a time.