Steve Jobs talks about Flash on iPhone/Pod/Pad

[Excedio]

http://www.apple.com/hotnews/thoughts-on-flash/

Very interesting article. Makes some good point too.

[Chrysantine]

Oh no, you posted something positive about Apple - they're going to crucify you now. :P

[whiskeylover]

All I read was

"blah blah blah... absolute control... blah blah blah... third party platform = reduced revenue... blah... excuses... blah blah.

Steve Jobs
April 2010"

[Excedio]

All I read was

"blah blah blah... absolute control... blah blah blah... third party platform = reduced revenue... blah... excuses... blah blah.

Steve Jobs
April 2010"

Like i said, he does make some good point. Any programmer whould agree with some of the points as well.

Example:


Fifth, there’s Touch.
Flash was designed for PCs using mice, not for touch screens using fingers. For example, many Flash websites rely on “rollovers”, which pop up menus or other elements when the mouse arrow hovers over a specific spot. Apple’s revolutionary multi-touch interface doesn’t use a mouse, and there is no concept of a rollover. Most Flash websites will need to be rewritten to support touch-based devices. If developers need to rewrite their Flash websites, why not use modern technologies like HTML5, CSS and JavaScript?

Even if iPhones, iPods and iPads ran Flash, it would not solve the problem that most Flash websites need to be rewritten to support touch-based devices.

[asddf]

Load of utter crap.

CSS, Javascript and HTML5 have no where near the power of Flash.

The reason Apple don't want Flash is purely to make money on their own apps.

[Tristam Green]

"There's no need for things like Rollovers".

Nevermind that there are multitouch screens out there right now that actually register finger movements in a hover motion, rather than registering only when finger meets glass.

Yeah, there's ZERO need for rollover/mouseover.

[dannyboy79]

All I read was

"blah blah blah... absolute control... blah blah blah... third party platform = reduced revenue... blah... excuses... blah blah.

Steve Jobs
April 2010"
well if that's all you read then that's very unfortunate. Steve has very excellent points which he has substantial evidence to back up his points. I didn't like the fact that he made some iphone developers rename some apps that had the word "pad" in them because Steve copyrighted the word somehow but I do agree with everything he has to say here about flash.

[Tristam Green]

Steve didn't copyright the word "pad". He implied loosely over his email that it was trademarked. It was a dubious claim, and I'm certain that although the apps were renamed anyway (probably due to a "we can request you change the name of any app you develop at any time at our leisure" clause), trademarks ultimately had nothing to do with it.

[whiskeylover]

well if that's all you read then that's very unfortunate. Steve has very excellent points which he has substantial evidence to back up his points. I didn't like the fact that he made some iphone developers rename some apps that had the word "pad" in them because Steve copyrighted the word somehow but I do agree with everything he has to say here about flash.

So because the iPad/iPhone doesn't support rollover, that makes Flash inherently evil/useless for all mobile purposes? I'm sure there are loads of flash developers that can easily port their code to support iDevices because they (the developers) are good at what they do.

Apple disallows apps solely because it wants to maintain absolute control over what users can/cannot do on their devices. Imagine users being able to play Flash games on their iPhones. That would pretty much make 1/2 of the app store useless.

[Chrysantine]

CSS, Javascript and HTML5 have no where near the power of Flash.
The power of Flash.. that's an interesting thing, is that why we need quad core machines and GPU acceleration to be able to produce graphics similar to what we had back in the late 80s on machines less powerful than my calculator?

That sure is some 'power'.

[asddf]

The power of Flash.. that's an interesting thing, is that why we need quad core machines and GPU acceleration to be able to produce graphics similar to what we had back in the late 80s on machines less powerful than my calculator?

That sure is some 'power'.

How long have you been programming Actionscript? let me guess, never you just take what apple tells you and go with it.

[3177]

he made some iphone developers rename some apps that had the word "pad" in them because Steve copyrighted the word somehow

so does maxi pad owe him money now or something?

what I got from the article is:*Jobs doesnt want anyone else to make money.
*the "multi touch interface" sucks so it CANT support flash

[Chrysantine]

How long have you been programming Actionscript? let me guess, never you just take what apple tells you and go with it.
I'm not comparing Flash with the suggested solutions, I'm just pointing out that calling Flash a "powerful tool" is comparable to comparing a Lada to a Formula 1. Flash is bulky, slow, unstable and most of all inefficient solution to the problem - Linux users should know this better than anyone after enduring years of nspluginwrapper.

And please, spare me the usual "u r nööb omg lol u worship apple trololol" witty 'insults'. You can navigate to 4chan if you have an innate need to express yourself in that way.

[JakeLawrence]

Thanks for the article. Flash has given me nothing but a headache since I switched to Ubuntu. :) Besides, given that developers will make HTML5, CSS, and JavaScript equally as powerful as Flash in the near-future - now that an enormous market has been and will be closed to Flash -, why will anyone need a third-party, "closed" tool like Flash to access video/animation/interactivity on the web? Isn't the very open nature of HTML5, CSS, and JavaScript mesh very well with the idea of ubuntu? ;)

[madnessjack]

To all the Apple bickerers out there- yes, Steve Job's is evil, we know, stop repeating it. Can we change the f'king record?

I read this letter in full, and he's making a lot of sense. The points he is making are very valid.

Flash is a heavy app. I still can't see how JS/HTML5/Useless open web technologies will do any better and vector animation though. Still, vector animations aren't used a lot, if you don't count ads and NewGrounds.

[asddf]

I'm not comparing Flash with the suggested solutions, I'm just pointing out that calling Flash a "powerful tool" is comparable to comparing a Lada to a Formula 1. Flash is bulky, slow, unstable and most of all inefficient solution to the problem - Linux users should know this better than anyone after enduring years of nspluginwrapper.

And please, spare me the usual "u r nööb omg lol u worship apple trololol" witty 'insults'. You can navigate to 4chan if you have an innate need to express yourself in that way.

Ah so you have no experience with the platform at all, but you have an opinion, because apple told you to have that opinion.

Thanks for proving a point.

[whiskeylover]

Thanks for the article. Flash has given me nothing but a headache since I switched to Ubuntu. :) Besides, given that developers will make HTML5, CSS, and JavaScript equally as powerful as Flash in the near-future - now that an enormous market has been and will be closed to Flash -, why will anyone need a third-party, "closed" tool like Flash to access video/animation/interactivity on the web? Isn't the very open nature of HTML5, CSS, and JavaScript mesh very well with the idea of ubuntu? ;)

Its not about what is more powerful. Its about the freedom to choose what I can do with my device. Apple limits your choices to what it thinks will benefit it financially. If MS was forced to bundle other browsers along with IE, then Apple should be forced to let other platforms compete with its app store too.

But iFansboys are going to disagree and go with whatever the Almighty Jobs tells them to do.

[3177]

And please, spare me the usual "u r nööb omg lol u worship apple trololol" witty 'insults'. You can navigate to 4chan if you have an innate need to express yourself in that way.

I dont beleive anyone said anything about noobs.
You stated something and someone else commented

If you state something you should probably stick behind it

[asddf]

Thanks for the article. Flash has given me nothing but a headache since I switched to Ubuntu. :) Besides, given that developers will make HTML5, CSS, and JavaScript equally as powerful as Flash in the near-future - now that an enormous market has been and will be closed to Flash -, why will anyone need a third-party, "closed" tool like Flash to access video/animation/interactivity on the web? Isn't the very open nature of HTML5, CSS, and JavaScript mesh very well with the idea of ubuntu? ;)

Flash is far far more powerful than those other technology will ever be. There not the same kind of technology, HTML is just tag, CSS is just a kind of style imported into the HTML tags and JavaScript is a client side language that's pretty weak to be honest.

Something like Unity 3D, or Web GL, are more the rivals to flashes power, HTML5 isn't in the same league in power.

[dannyboy79]

so does maxi pad owe him money now or something?

what I got from the article is:*Jobs doesnt want anyone else to make money.
*the "multi touch interface" sucks so it CANT support flash
possibly, I am not aware of the exact copyright he has on the word "pad", I was merely pointing out that Steve can be egotistical at times but in this case he makes excellent arguments and has legitement proof to back up his arguments. choosing not to use proprietary third party software within his devices can hardly be seen as "jobs doesn't want anyone else to make money" You wanna make money, then write some apps for the iphone or ipad and stop whining.

[jrothwell97]

What I got was:

Flash sucks. (Note: This is true. It sucks apocalyptic lemons on any platform other than Windows.)
Flash doesn't work with multi-touch interfaces. (Note: This is partly true, as any multi-touch flash interface would probably be a bit clunky in operation. However, half a loaf is better than none.)
Open standards such as HTML5 and associated technologies, JS and CSS are better, and at least approaching Flash in capability. (Also true.)
Better games can be found in the App Store. (That's all well and good, but it's not really fair to lock Flash out of the iPad party in particular. I'm not fond of it, but if people choose to take the poison, they should be able to.)

I think there are a number of reasons behind Flash not being allowed on the iPhone OS: obviously revenue is one of them, but there are other issues, such as usability and stability. Given that Apple has a (deserved) reputation (and one they obviously want to keep) for slickness, it's understandable that they want to block Flash.

That doesn't mean I agree with it in principle, but surprisingly I agree with it in practice. :)

[Ylon]

Well, I do think is..... he's not smart as other believe. But he'd get some point: everyone love open standard and "boooh boooh" big bad companies. Saddly, it's seem to forget that he's the CEO of one of them.
Adobe watch their product as Apple does: everything Steve say can be turned to him also.


He's right, but don't expect me cheer for him or his company

[dannyboy79]

Ah so you have no experience with the platform at all, but you have an opinion, because apple told you to have that opinion.

Thanks for proving a point.

i see that you're very negative toward apple for reasons that I can only guess. I also see that you want Adobe to natively support linux. HUH? Is adobe just as evil as apple because they don't support what YOU want then to support? I'll answer that for you, YES. I'd like to be able to get a device and browse to any website and not have to read "missing plugin". I'd like it to just work! Why doesn't Adobe just build flash into web browsers if FLASH is the solution? We're never going to agree and that's fine, but I don't see how you can be so stubborn to not see some valid points from Steve's letter.

[JakeLawrence]

Oh no, you posted something positive about Apple - they're going to crucify you now. :P

Au contraire, I believe you're the one who's been crucified. :popcorn:


Flash is far far more powerful than those other technology will ever be. There not the same kind of technology, HTML is just tag, CSS is just a kind of style imported into the HTML tags and JavaScript is a client side language that's pretty weak to be honest.

Something like Unity 3D, or Web GL, are more the rivals to flashes power, HTML5 isn't in the same league in power.

Locked into an expansive market (iPod, iPhone, and iPad), I see every reason why developers will be forced to improve HTML5, CSS, and JavaScript out of necessity.

That begs the question, though - are videos on iPod, iPhone or iPad even that bad? I don't have any of the three.

And there still remains the issue of Flash's bulkiness and propensity to crash.

[asddf]

Chrome has flash as a default, so that's invalid.

Anyone saying CSS and HTML and simlar to Flash......

You've never ever even looked at one of those technology.

HTML and CSS are STATIC, they have no brain, they cannot make a decision, they cannot animate anything, they cannot do anything.

Flash is very similar to C# or Java, it's almost identical to Java as a language now.

[m4tic]

just read it and he does make good points but i think adobe will make a breakthrough in mobile phones. Look at most SE phones, flash themeng has a good following but it for the web it has no use other than video streaming, i just don't see anyone happy for having flash ads(most block ads in general)

[Chrysantine]

Au contraire, I believe you're the one who's been crucified. :popcorn:
Nah I don't mind - I've been dealing with Linux people for the past 15 years now so I've gotten pretty used to being used as a target practice because I use more than one platform :-)

[jrothwell97]

Chrome has flash as a default, so that's invalid.
No it's not.


Anyone saying CSS and HTML and simlar to Flash......
No-one ever said it was.


You've never ever even looked at one of those technology.
Yes I have.


HTML and CSS are STATIC, they have no brain, they cannot make a decision, they cannot animate anything, they cannot do anything.
Yes they can. (http://html5demos.com/storage) (Ever heard of AJAX?)


Flash is very similar to C# or Java, it's almost identical to Java as a language now.
The problem is not the language itself, it's the terrible implementation of the runtime. Moreover, the fact it's entirely proprietary (unlike C# and Java) makes it a bad choice as a web programming language.

[asddf]

Ajax is a Javscript framework, which has nothing to do with HTML or CSS.

Ajax is great for things like ecommerce shopping carts, some other cool drop and drag applications, but it's not even close to Flash, it's for a completely different purpose.

[jrothwell97]

Ajax is a Javscript framework, which has nothing to do with HTML or CSS.

Ajax is great for things like ecommerce shopping carts, some other cool drop and drag applications, but it's not even close to Flash, it's for a completely different purpose.

On the flipside of that, using something as heavy as Flash for something as simple as playing video (YouTube) or displaying a web site (don't ask) is using a sledgehammer to crack a nut, no?

[Foster Grant]

What I got was:

Flash sucks. (Note: This is true. It sucks apocalyptic lemons on any platform other than Windows.)
Flash doesn't work with multi-touch interfaces. (Note: This is partly true, as any multi-touch flash interface would probably be a bit clunky in operation. However, half a loaf is better than none.)
Open standards such as HTML5 and associated technologies, JS and CSS are better, and at least approaching Flash in capability. (Also true.)
Better games can be found in the App Store. (That's all well and good, but it's not really fair to lock Flash out of the iPad party in particular. I'm not fond of it, but if people choose to take the poison, they should be able to.)

I think there are a number of reasons behind Flash not being allowed on the iPhone OS: obviously revenue is one of them, but there are other issues, such as usability and stability. Given that Apple has a (deserved) reputation (and one they obviously want to keep) for slickness, it's understandable that they want to block Flash.

That doesn't mean I agree with it in principle, but surprisingly I agree with it in practice. :)

Engadget has published a solid summary of Jobs' letter, as well: http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/29/steve-jobs-publishes-some-thoughts-on-flash-many-many-thou/

Many of his criticisms of Adobe Flash mirror those made by people in the open-source community.

[lykwydchykyn]

I think he makes good points, and I would absolutely love to see this result in more use of HTML5 and other open standards in those places where they can be used instead of flash. But I think the logic is screwed up on his sixth (and what he calls "the most important") point.

He says that allowing a third party development layer means that "we" will be dependent on that third party to keep up with enhancements to the iPhone platform. I don't know what "we" he means. A developer chooses a development platform, and they accept the limitations of that platform -- whether it's Apple, Adobe, or anyone else furnishing the limitations.

And frankly, this statement is just weasely:


Everyone wins – we sell more devices because we have the best apps, developers reach a wider and wider audience and customer base, and users are continually delighted by the best and broadest selection of apps on any platform.


(NOTE: the context here is that he's saying cross-platform development tools like Flash are bad for the iPhone and for developers)

No, Steve, everyone DOESN'T win, because my apps are hopelessly tied to your platform. If I'm a commercial app developer, I don't CARE about Apple selling phones. I care about me selling apps, and I don't care what phone runs them. If I can take a single piece of code and pitch it to iPhone users, Android users, WinMobile users, BlackBerry user, et al, then I win. If my hopes of success have to be tied to Apple maintaining market dominance, then no, I don't win.

[madnessjack]

No, Steve, everyone DOESN'T win, because my apps are hopelessly tied to your platform. If I'm a commercial app developer, I don't CARE about Apple selling phones. I care about me selling apps, and I don't care what phone runs them. If I can take a single piece of code and pitch it to iPhone users, Android users, WinMobile users, BlackBerry user, et al, then I win. If my hopes of success have to be tied to Apple maintaining market dominance, then no, I don't win.

This is the case for most platforms though- Windows, Mac, Linux, Xbox, PS3, Wii, toasters...

[Grenage]

I'm not a fan of Apple, and I'm not a fan of Flash. I used to be a fan when I was in college; I used ActionScript extensively, it was the fantastic at the time.

My opinions have since shifted, and I now think it's a heavily over-used and miss-used technology. Do I know of a suitable replacement at this moment in time? No. I'll take anything that's remotely open at this point.

[lykwydchykyn]

This is the case for most platforms though- Windows, Mac, Linux, Xbox, PS3, Wii, toasters...

toasters maybe, and I couldn't speak for gaming consoles; but for Windows, Linux, and OSX you are wrong.

Sure, every platform has NATIVE development stacks, but how many actively forbid cross-platform development?

This is like Microsoft saying "It's now against the EULA to run Java or Java apps on Windows, because we feel you will have better software using native (Windows-only) development tools and APIs"

[lyceum]

When Steve Jobs talks about Flash, all I smell is poop. Needs a mouse for rollovers? What? So does CSS/JavaScript and lots of other stuff. Show me a website with an XHTML/CSS/JavaScript/Whatever button scroll that don't work on an iPhone/iPad/iWhatever-touch-thing-they-make-next.

Here's the deal. I have a ModBook. It uses a pen, not a mouse. I touch the screen with the pen, just like a would my fingers. Guess what - I have no issues with Flash. None. Did Apple mess something up that made Flash not work on the iPhone OS? Is Jobs mad that when Apple dumped the Power PC for the Intel and Adobe gave their product to Windows before Mac? Is Jobs a control freak? Who cares.

Bottom line - a lot of developers like Flash and Adobe was/is willing to work with Apple. Apple is a control freak that only wants programs on their machines written on their programs with their approved languages. That is all there is to it. If Adobe is smart, they'll start focusing on Android and Linux and let Apple lose business when poor artists realize they can get a cool Dell with Ubuntu for less, still be non-mainstream and use the tools their schools are teaching them to use.

[3177]

possibly, I am not aware of the exact copyright he has on the word "pad", I was merely pointing out that Steve can be egotistical at times but in this case he makes excellent arguments and has legitement proof to back up his arguments. choosing not to use proprietary third party software within his devices can hardly be seen as "jobs doesn't want anyone else to make money" You wanna make money, then write some apps for the iphone or ipad and stop whining.

WOW

someones pissy

[samh785]

Rather than use Flash, Apple has adopted HTML5, CSS and JavaScript – all open standards.

But they did block the inclusion of an open video standard as a part of html5.

[3177]

When Steve Jobs talks about Flash, all I smell is poop. Needs a mouse for rollovers? What? So does CSS/JavaScript and lots of other stuff. Show me a website with an XHTML/CSS/JavaScript/Whatever button scroll that don't work on an iPhone/iPad/iWhatever-touch-thing-they-make-next.

Here's the deal. I have a ModBook. It uses a pen, not a mouse. I touch the screen with the pen, just like a would my fingers. Guess what - I have no issues with Flash. None. Did Apple mess something up that made Flash not work on the iPhone OS? Is Jobs mad that when Apple dumped the Power PC for the Intel and Adobe gave their product to Windows before Mac? Is Jobs a control freak? Who cares.

Bottom line - a lot of developers like Flash and Adobe was/is willing to work with Apple. Apple is a control freak that only wants programs on their machines written on their programs with their approved languages. That is all there is to it. If Adobe is smart, they'll start focusing on Android and Linux and let Apple lose business when poor artists realize they can get a cool Dell with Ubuntu for less, still be non-mainstream and use the tools their schools are teaching them to use.

well put
way better than I was able to

[jrothwell97]

But they did block the inclusion of an open video standard as a part of html5.

That was, however, due to concerns that Theora might have some sleeper patents behind it, and that it is technically inferior to H264.

[madnessjack]

toasters maybe, and I couldn't speak for gaming consoles; but for Windows, Linux, and OSX you are wrong.

Sure, every platform has NATIVE development stacks, but how many actively forbid cross-platform development?

This is like Microsoft saying "It's now against the EULA to run Java or Java apps on Windows, because we feel you will have better software using native (Windows-only) development tools and APIs"

Yeah maybe, but in my humble opinion Windows/Linux/OSX experiences are never, ever smooth. Steve wants to counter this, and good on him.

[Damn I can't believe I'm agreeing with the guy's principles! :P]

[lykwydchykyn]

Yeah maybe, but in my humble opinion Windows/Linux/OSX experiences are never, ever smooth. Steve wants to counter this, and good on him.

[Damn I can't believe I'm agreeing with the guy's principles! :P]

Do you really believe his first motive here is to make sure the experience is "smooth"?

Re-read the paragraph I quoted from, and the one before it. What he's saying here is, "Don't worry about supporting those other phones; develop for our phone, and then we'll have all the apps and everyone will buy our phone, and we'll all (well, mostly us, not you) make piles of cash".

This isn't about making the experience smooth, it's about dominating the market and preventing phone OS's from commoditizing.

[Chrysantine]

This isn't about making the experience smooth, it's about dominating the market and preventing phone OS's from commoditizing.
Newsflash: Apple is a corporate entity. Corporations want to make money and make sure their stockholders are assured of future stock value.

I doubt anyone here is defending Apple but some of us actually agree that alternative solutions are better than Flash - even if they temporarily seem to reduce functionality.

As for Steve, well let's put it this way; he pulled a complete train wreck of a business, overhauled their entire infrastructure to become a powerhouse in media and computers and have innovated and implemented many things that Ubuntu is now essentially copying

What have most of you done? Whined on forums, that's all you'll ever accomplish. Feel free to hate Apple but at least give the man some respect.

/rant off.

[whiskeylover]

What have most of you done? Whined on forums, that's all you'll ever accomplish. Feel free to hate Apple but at least give the man some respect.

/rant off.

Lol... hello Pot.

[madnessjack]

Do you really believe his first motive here is to make sure the experience is "smooth"?
No- I'm not that vein :P

But bitching aside, if your product is exclusive and heavily moderated you stand a better chance of cleansing your product of crap-ware.

If someone develops an application for Android, they'll have to do a lot of work for it to get it working on the iPhone. This isn't a bad thing- it prevents devs from cutting corners. (Okay this is an extreme perspective, but you can understand what I'm saying.)

Back to Flash though- it wasn't designed for mobile devices. It was designed for Windows PCs with mouses, (almost) like he said. Imagine the crap that would result from such ports!

[lykwydchykyn]

Newsflash: Apple is a corporate entity. Corporations want to make money and make sure their stockholders are assured of future stock value.

No kidding. Nobody's talking about taking Apple to court here, I just think it's disingenuous to (1) Wax lyrical about open standards (2) paint Adobe as the bad guy for subverting them and then (3) try to pass off your own version of lock-in as a great thing for everyone.




I doubt anyone here is defending Apple but some of us actually agree that alternative solutions are better than Flash - even if they temporarily seem to reduce functionality.

I already said I agree with his thoughts about the quality of flash, and I'd like to see it replaced with open standards. Good on Steve if his little crusade pushes the industry in that direction.



As for Steve, well let's put it this way; he pulled a complete train wreck of a business, overhauled their entire infrastructure to become a powerhouse in media and computers and have innovated and implemented many things that Ubuntu is now essentially copying

What have most of you done? Whined on forums, that's all you'll ever accomplish. Feel free to hate Apple but at least give the man some respect.

/rant off.

I don't think I even want to dignify that with a response...

[KiwiNZ]

Flash is a good product in its right place. I do not want it on my mobile devices why? battery life.

Flash is resource hungry and drains batteries very quickly. Add to such things as an iPad , iPhone etc and you more than have the battery life.

Flash has its place, that is on desktops and laptops, not mobile devices such as iPads and iPhones.

[whiskeylover]

Flash is a good product in its right place. I do not want it on my mobile devices why? battery life.

Flash is resource hungry and drains batteries very quickly. Add to such things as an iPad , iPhone etc and you more than have the battery life.

Flash has its place, that is on desktops and laptops, not mobile devices such as iPads and iPhones.

Let that be for the user to decide.

[KiwiNZ]

Let that be for the user to decide.

Why Apple build their OS.

The users choice is Apple or other supplier.

[whiskeylover]

Why Apple build their OS.

The users choice is Apple or other supplier.

I would like to know your thoughts on the EU making MS include other browsers along with IE in Windows. And why not let MS decide what to offer and what not to offer. The users can either use IE or go with a different OS.

[madnessjack]

I would like to know your thoughts on the EU making MS include other browsers along with IE in Windows. And why not let MS decide what to offer and what not to offer. The users can either use IE or go with a different OS.

That's a different kettle of fish- the majority of PC's tend to be tied to Windows, restricting user choice, hence EU intervention.

[KiwiNZ]

I would like to know your thoughts on the EU making MS include other browsers along with IE in Windows. And why not let MS decide what to offer and what not to offer. The users can either use IE or go with a different OS.

The iPad OS is for the iPad . Don't like it dont buy it.

Windows is for multiple brands and for off the shelf purchase a completely different set of circumstances. Trying to link the Browser issue to the flash issue is a non starter.

[dannyboy79]

newsflash: Apple is a corporate entity. Corporations want to make money and make sure their stockholders are assured of future stock value.

I doubt anyone here is defending apple but some of us actually agree that alternative solutions are better than flash - even if they temporarily seem to reduce functionality.

As for steve, well let's put it this way; he pulled a complete train wreck of a business, overhauled their entire infrastructure to become a powerhouse in media and computers and have innovated and implemented many things that ubuntu is now essentially copying

what have most of you done? Whined on forums, that's all you'll ever accomplish. Feel free to hate apple but at least give the man some respect.

/rant off.
+1

[Giant Speck]

Ah so you have no experience with the platform at all, but you have an opinion, because apple told you to have that opinion.

Thanks for proving a point.

How much does Adobe pay you for posting your pro-Flash opinions? I'm genuinely curious to know.