HTC pays Microsoft royalties for putting Linux on their phones.

[murderslastcrow]

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/04/28/microsoft_mobile_sued/

So, we've come to this already. I'd have to agree with one of the commenters that the litigation involved in revealing the patents that have been broken would probably be less of an issue than arbitrarily paying Microsoft without asking for further information on what these patents are.

If they aren't made public, I find little reason for any company to listen to Microsoft's bullying. And once they are, I think software patents will be under much scrutiny for how unhealthy they are for the technology industry.

Kinda' like Apple trying to patent a 3d desktop. It inhibits growth.

I suggest HTC leave WindowsPhone to another manufacturer and keep focusing on their more friendly software providers. Then again, if they get more money from keeping them on than they lose through paying them, I can see where they're coming from.

What do you think? Is this the beginning of a new trend? Is everyone going to be paying Microsoft for IP rights in the future, even though we have nothing to do with them? Is it just me, or is this behavior entirely absurd?

[socceroos]

It may just be the beginning of a new trend.

In HTC's case though, I would suggest that part of the reason that they've signed a patent deal with Microsoft is because they're running for cover from Apple (who recently sued HTC).

I'm pretty sure HTC's aim is to scare Apple off by being backed by Microsoft's patent portfolio.

[Madspyman]

Not to mention who knows what kind of agreement they signed with Microsoft over their Windows phones. They may not have had much of a choice.

[Giant Speck]

To be completely honest, I find the idea of HTC being in any sort of patent agreement with Microsoft to be much better than the thought of Apple crushing HTC over patent issues.

[mcoleman44]

Yeah, Microsoft also says linux has infringed on no less than 235 Microsoft patents.
A few of which have to do with our menu being square in shape.

[UltraAnders]

Gah, it's looking like a continuation of a trend!
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/12/11/exfat_licensing_linux_who_they/
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/02/26/microsoft_panasonic_ip_exfat/

[Ric_NYC]

The silence of FSF and Google is disturbing.

What's going on?

[mcoleman44]

The silence of FSF and Google is disturbing.

Details please! Sounds interesting.

[mickie.kext]

EI Reg has a funny headline http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/04/28/microsoft_mobile_sued/

Microsoft folks apparently think they own everything. If Google is serious about Android, they should return Microsoft a favour and go after their partners with patent claims. Linux companies should buy some patent trolls and start making claims that Windows infringe. I do not see any other solution here. You fight fire with fire.

Eben Moglen kinda predicted all this when Novell deal was announced http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YExl9ojclo&feature=related But, people think that FSF folks are crazy.

In a way, all this is Novell's fault. If they didn't give in, none of this would happen.
PS: Also, if Linux switched to GPLv3, none of this would be possible.

[Ric_NYC]

Details please! Sounds interesting.



"Google refused to comment on Wednesday on the potential impact of the HTC licensing deal, but recent questions that have been raised over Android have not slowed its adoption."

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/3eda5cb4-52ed-11df-813e-00144feab49a.html






So Google have some people working for free developing Android... Then Microsoft comes and signs deals with companies that pay it some money to use that software.

[mcoleman44]

In a way, all this is Novell's fault. If they didn't give in, none of this would happen.
Are they the ones that found a loop hole in the GPL and made a deal with microsoft? And then Microsoft sold coupons for Novell to there users?

[mihai.ile]

whoa this patent system and microsoft in US looks like mafia :D

[mickie.kext]

Are they the ones that found a loop hole in the GPL and made a deal with microsoft? And then Microsoft sold coupons for Novell to there users?

Yes.

[mcoleman44]

whoa this patent system and microsoft in US looks like mafiaIt is!!
Back when Patents first became a big thing, Microsoft decided to go out and get about 4000 patents. So basically they own anything that operates on a computer. They think they own the square menu and the idea of sub-menus.

[Ric_NYC]

EI Reg has a funny headline http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/04/28/microsoft_mobile_sued/

Microsoft folks apparently think they own everything. If Google is serious about Android, they should return Microsoft a favour and go after their partners with patent claims. Linux companies should buy some patent trolls and start making claims that Windows infringe. I do not see any other solution here. You fight fire with fire.

Eben Moglen kinda predicted all this when Novell deal was announced http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YExl9ojclo&feature=related But, people think that FSF folks are crazy.

In a way, all this is Novell's fault. If they didn't give in, none of this would happen.
PS: Also, if Linux switched to GPLv3, none of this would be possible.



I agree 100%.

[Ric_NYC]

Who start it? Novell?

[mcoleman44]

Who start it? Novell?
Neither of them really started it. Customers just wanted better support between the servers of the two machines. So they got together and found a loop hole in the GPL and made a deal. Novell gave Microsoft a certain percentage of there earnings for a few years and in turn Microsoft gave coupons for Novell. At least thats my understanding of it.

[Ric_NYC]

Neither of them really started it. Customers just wanted better support between the servers of the two machines. So they got together and found a loop hole in the GPL and made a deal. Novell gave Microsoft a certain percentage of there earnings for a few years and in turn Microsoft gave coupons for Novell. At least thats my understanding of it.


In other words... Novell was the first company to have that kind of deal with Microsoft?

[mcoleman44]

In other words... Novell was the first company to have that kind of deal with Microsoft?
Yes (After the GPL anyway, there might have been before though)

[Ric_NYC]

Yes (After the GPL anyway, there might have been before though)


Ok. Thanks.

[mickie.kext]

Neither of them really started it. Customers just wanted better support between the servers of the two machines. So they got together and found a loop hole in the GPL and made a deal. Novell gave Microsoft a certain percentage of there earnings for a few years and in turn Microsoft gave coupons for Novell. At least thats my understanding of it.

It was not customers. It was Microsoft and Novell. The whole "interoperability" story is red herring. Novell was doing poorly after buying SuSE AG and was envious of Red Hat (which was doing great), so they looked for a way a screw them over. Microsoft was scared of Linux so they wanted to do "divide and conquer", so they provided Novell with a way to take a swing at Red Hat. They made a deal and started calling SuSE a "Microsoft approved Linux" and everybody who do not use SuSE (Red Hat's customers) by their logic somehow own money to Microsoft (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5B0GTYfPoMo&feature=related). Wach Eben Moglen's speech I linked.

[davrosuk]

Software patents sicken me. They have nothing to do with protecting innovation and everything to do with locking out competition. To be honest, I'm not a fan of any patents or copyright (in their current form) for much the same reason. It all boils down to fat cats trying to maintain the status quo and keep the cash rolling in for many years to come without lifting a finger.

I used to back Microsoft up in years gone by as I thought they were given a rough ride. No more though. All the machines I run now are running Linux, bar one server which is going to be getting Lucid within weeks. Ironically MS latest offerings are quite passable. Shame they've made me hate them...

[zekopeko]

Neither of them really started it. Customers just wanted better support between the servers of the two machines. So they got together and found a loop hole in the GPL and made a deal. Novell gave Microsoft a certain percentage of there earnings for a few years and in turn Microsoft gave coupons for Novell. At least thats my understanding of it.

What happened is Microsoft is getting paid 40 million $ over a 5 year period from Novell. Novell got 108 million $ for patent agreements + 240 million for those coupons.[1]

This is apparently based on the size and importance of their patent portfolios.
What they were buying from one another is insurance. If one company infringes patents of the other their customers are safe from potential lawsuits.

It's interesting what IBM had to say on this deal [2].

[1] http://www.linux-watch.com/news/NS7235986827.html
[2] http://www.linux-watch.com/news/NS4468266798.html

[murderslastcrow]

Eh, I'll just move to a country that doesn't support this absurdity... JK! I love America, despite its weaknesses. We need to get it out of the U.S. if we don't want the madness to spread.

But yeah, Linux supports Tivoization so far as I remember, and that's why he keeps GPLv2. But I don't see why allowing consumers access to their own hardware is a bad idea- if they wanna' modify it, they're going to find a way to hack it anyway. Might as well support it and get all the support from the hackers at the same time.

I like GPLv3, for the most part.

But yeah, HTC should consult the Software Freedom Law Center (SFLC). No one should allow this insanity to cost them any money. Also, if I remember correctly, HTC is a Chinese company. No one should have to send more money out of their economy to support greed in America.

[Ric_NYC]

"Microsoft may be on its way to earning a percentage of every Android handset sold, something even Google hasn't accomplished."


http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/195167/htc_android_deal_could_pay_off_for_microsoft_not_g oogle.html

[zekopeko]

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/04/28/microsoft_mobile_sued/

So, we've come to this already. I'd have to agree with one of the commenters that the litigation involved in revealing the patents that have been broken would probably be less of an issue than arbitrarily paying Microsoft without asking for further information on what these patents are.

If they aren't made public, I find little reason for any company to listen to Microsoft's bullying. And once they are, I think software patents will be under much scrutiny for how unhealthy they are for the technology industry.

Has it occurred to you that HTC saw the patents in question and considered if they apply or not and based on that made their own choice? Patent lawsuits are expensive. And if you file in a certain federal district court in Texas the odd are in your favor.


Kinda' like Apple trying to patent a 3d desktop. It inhibits growth.

I suggest HTC leave WindowsPhone to another manufacturer and keep focusing on their more friendly software providers. Then again, if they get more money from keeping them on than they lose through paying them, I can see where they're coming from.

They are a phone manufacturer. They aren't going to leave a piece of the market untapped just because of some ethical high ground. They are in it to make money.


What do you think? Is this the beginning of a new trend? Is everyone going to be paying Microsoft for IP rights in the future, even though we have nothing to do with them? Is it just me, or is this behavior entirely absurd?

Sure you have something to do with the patents. If a piece of software you are using is infringing on patents then you can be held liable. Patent law applies to every one in the distribution chain.
The problem is the patent system.

The whole thing stinks because of the arbitrary time limit of 20 years and other factors. That is eons in any modern industry. A better way would be to have the patent last 5 years or you get income from licensing it that amounts to two times money spent on it's "invention" which ever comes first IMO.

EDIT: The above would be good as a short term measure. Long term I'm all for abolishing patents if we could make that kind of system work.

[zekopeko]

But yeah, Linux supports Tivoization so far as I remember, and that's why he keeps GPLv2. But I don't see why allowing consumers access to their own hardware is a bad idea- if they wanna' modify it, they're going to find a way to hack it anyway. Might as well support it and get all the support from the hackers at the same time.

I like GPLv3, for the most part.

Linus didn't want to change to GPL3 because he thinks GPL2 is OK and more importantly it would require him to contact all 6224 developers[1] that contributed code to the project so he can change the license. That would take forever.

[1] https://www.ohloh.net/p/linux/factoids

[zekopeko]

It was not customers. It was Microsoft and Novell. The whole "interoperability" story is red herring. Novell was doing poorly after buying SuSE AG and was envious of Red Hat (which was doing great), so they looked for a way a screw them over. Microsoft was scared of Linux so they wanted to do "divide and conquer", so they provided Novell with a way to take a swing at Red Hat. They made a deal and started calling SuSE a "Microsoft approved Linux" and everybody who do not use SuSE (Red Hat's customers) by their logic somehow own money to Microsoft (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5B0GTYfPoMo&feature=related). Wach Eben Moglen's speech I linked.

So you are basically saying that they made a deal to survive. Omg how could they do that?!!!

[sdowney717]

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-04-28/microsoft-says-google-s-android-may-infringe-patents-update1-.html

Android they are out to kill it.


The message is so not subtle -- Android is not free and not only is not free, it can start being quite expensive over time,” Gartenberg said. “The irony of the fact is that for every HTC Android phone that ships, Microsoft will get a check.”

and this


Unless Google somehow figures out how to axe this cost, “Android is going to fall off as an expensive and risky platform,” he said. “Nobody wants to deal with Microsoft.”

Apple Inc. already has a patent-infringement complaint pending against HTC over phones that run on Android. Research In Motion Ltd., Nokia Oyj and Palm Inc. are among the device makers that might claim to have patent rights to Android, Gartenberg said.

[murderslastcrow]

Oh, right. That would be a pain in the ****, since upgrading to the GPLv3 is kinda' laborious. Heck, projects have a hard enough time just trying to figure out their issues with their current licenses without having to switch to a new one.

Thanks for the correction! :D

[Spike-X]

Microsoft...think they own the square menu and the idea of sub-menus.

Which is interesting, since I'm pretty sure I first saw both of those on a Macintosh long before Windows ever came out.

[newbie2]

What you are seeing here is a part of Microsoft’s anti-Linux campaign that has been going on actively for a couple years now and in talks for many years. They’ve been claiming that Linux infringes on some of their patents though they have never disclosed those patents. They then came up with the ingenious idea of going to relatively smaller companies (read without the tech guns to fire back) claiming that they need to sign a licensing agreement behind an NDA to continue to use Linux. Its quite possible that in these agreements these companies pay very little or nothing to MS. But what it does is make even smaller companies scared to use Linux over Windows and boosts their sales. Thats why the contracts are always along with an NDA because the whole gig would be up if that got out or the actual patents they are claiming got out.
-
In this case they went after HTC for a second reason. It makes them look good in the face of Apple for reaching an agreement instead of trying to sue. I highly doubt this will discourage any of the big boys from using Android though it might make some smaller players think twice which is what MS seeks to do. However I’ve gotta wonder if this time they have not gotten to close to one of the Linux vendors (Google) with the ammo to tell MS to either put up or shut up on the patent claims. MS cannot let those patents ever go public because the Linux community will write those pieces out of the software and the whole gig will be up.
-
But again I do not believe this will slow down Android….Google probably won’t let it.
http://phandroid.com/2010/04/28/thanks-to-microsoft-android-just-became-more-expensive-for-htc-and-others/

[Paqman]

Yeah, Microsoft also says linux has infringed on no less than 235 Microsoft patents.
A few of which have to do with our menu being square in shape.

Actually they haven't been specific about any of the patents they're referring to. Hardcore FUD from the original bad boy FUD-peddlars.

(And FUD is a vastly overused accusation that I almost never use, but in this case it seems like a totally legitimate call.)

[mcoleman44]

@Paqman,
Theres actually an interview with Steve Ballmer and he mentions that our dropdown menu infringes on 65 of the 235. Ill try to find where I read it and post the article.