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kevin11951
April 27th, 2010, 11:14 PM
I have noticed the following from people who use computers:

If you use...
...Windows: You learn Windows
...Mac: You learn Mac
...Linux: You learn hardware

In other words, if you use most of the operating systems out there, they spend so much time hiding the underlying structure that you never learn anything about how a computer REALLY works. Linux on the other hand (and bsd, etc...) are so open, that when using them for a long time, you learn about hardware, and not the operating systems individual environment (With the possible exception of Ubuntu ;)).

RiceMonster
April 27th, 2010, 11:20 PM
I don't agree. I know windows users who don't know anywhere near as much about Linux as I do, but know more about hardware than me.

swoll1980
April 27th, 2010, 11:25 PM
My girlfriend has used Ubuntu for 3 years, and knows nothing about computers other than how to open Firefox. She knows how to open Firefox in Windows too.

lisati
April 27th, 2010, 11:26 PM
I sometimes wonder how many users of <name-of-preferred-operating-system> actually know anything about what an operating system is or what it does.

NMFTM
April 27th, 2010, 11:44 PM
I sometimes wonder how many users of <name-of-preferred-operating-system> actually know anything about what an operating system is or what it does.
Nobody really uses an operating system, they use applications. Whether it's Word/Excel/Powerpoint, Apache/IIS, PowerShell/cmd.exe/BASH, ipconfig/ifconfig, Virtualbox/VMWare, GIMP/Photoshop, OpenSSH/OpenVNC, etc.

I'm the only one in my group of (tech savvy) friends who uses Linux as their primary OS and they always call me a "Linux expert". To which I usually respond that I just use it as a desktop OS and do what needs done to get the stuff working. So, I may know a lot more about Linux in general than they do. But I don't really "use Linux" in the technical sense, because nobody does. I just use whatever applications that I need to learn to get the job done. Which is currently a bundle of applications called Debian Squeeze, but in a few days will be a bundle called Ubuntu Lucid.

Linux is just a collection of applications (Linux, GNU, XWindows, etc) that were put together to work as a cohesive whole. Technically, so is Windows. But since Linux is open source (and very modular) it allows people to swap out parts (i.e. replacing Bash with Ash or Ksh or OSS with ALSA) with other parts. If Windows was open source you can bet that there would be a lot of derivative distros that each bundled their favorite respective applications.

PurposeOfReason
April 27th, 2010, 11:48 PM
Hardware will teach you more about an OS than an OS will teach you about hardware. Don't think because you use linux you know anything about computers. You know linux.

Rainulf
April 27th, 2010, 11:59 PM
I disagree. Linux teaches you how to be pr0. =)

QwUo173Hy
April 28th, 2010, 01:45 AM
Operating systems teach you that a career in software engineering could be very enjoyable. I can't tell you where it all went wrong.

kernelhaxor
April 28th, 2010, 02:03 AM
You're saying you learn about hardware because you have to mess with drivers and stuff?
I don't know if that's a good thing. I am all for learning but still I expect the OS to handle device drivers and things like that smoothly. I'll learn more about hardware if I want to; I shouldn't be forced to learn.

magmon
April 28th, 2010, 02:08 AM
I've learned little beyond what is needed about both hardware and linux. I do have favorite commands and methods for favorite things in both windows and linux that few of my friends possess, but I would not go so far as to say that using linux has made me better in anything other than working with linux. I use any OS because it makes works for me, and I like it's interworkings. I am quite sure the windows 7 on my new toshiba has just about outstayed it's welcome, come to think of it.

v1ad
April 28th, 2010, 02:14 AM
setting up linux does teach you a bit more about computers. once you configure the network and everything else you can learn what an ip address is, mac address, subnet mask, and so forth.

windows you just install a driver and throw it on a dhcp router and your set.

linux opens your mind to more possibilities. the reason linux users tend to know more about computers is because the majority that use it, use it because they love it and worked with other operating systems and linux gives them freedom and control. (imho)

jrusso2
April 28th, 2010, 02:25 AM
setting up linux does teach you a bit more about computers. once you configure the network and everything else you can learn what an ip address is, mac address, subnet mask, and so forth.

windows you just install a driver and throw it on a dhcp router and your set.

linux opens your mind to more possibilities. the reason linux users tend to know more about computers is because the majority that use it, use it because they love it and worked with other operating systems and linux gives them freedom and control. (imho)

Shouldn't Linux be that easy? You all keep saying its fine for new users?

v1ad
April 28th, 2010, 02:32 AM
Shouldn't Linux be that easy? You all keep saying its fine for new users?

in some cases it is fine. but users have the option of going the technical way to see how it works and learn about iwconfig/ifconfig and those that only want it to work.

in my opinion if you can't setup an operating system properly you shouldn't be doing it or you should have the guts to figure it out.

there is installation && configuration part and the daily user part.

witeshark17
April 28th, 2010, 02:36 AM
I agree that you can learn more about hardware running Linux. But I do have a friend that runs windows and builds his own systems. :popcorn:

v1ad
April 28th, 2010, 02:38 AM
i used windows for a good 7 years till i found linux. i built computers, and know windows like the back of my hand, but i still learn more and more in linux.

JDShu
April 28th, 2010, 02:47 AM
I have noticed the following from people who use computers:

If you use...
...Windows: You learn Windows
...Mac: You learn Mac
...Linux: You learn hardware

In other words, if you use most of the operating systems out there, they spend so much time hiding the underlying structure that you never learn anything about how a computer REALLY works. Linux on the other hand (and bsd, etc...) are so open, that when using them for a long time, you learn about hardware, and not the operating systems individual environment (With the possible exception of Ubuntu ;)).

I feel that this is a good place to plug in xkcd:

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/correlation.png

Bachstelze
April 28th, 2010, 02:51 AM
in some cases it is fine. but users have the option of going the technical way to see how it works and learn about iwconfig/ifconfig and those that only want it to work.


They have that option in Windows, too.

v1ad
April 28th, 2010, 02:55 AM
eh it's not the same. in linux you love the konsole. in windows you have to search for it. and then you are still limited.

yester64
April 28th, 2010, 02:55 AM
I sometimes wonder how many users of <name-of-preferred-operating-system> actually know anything about what an operating system is or what it does.

Mm... do you need to know how a computer work if you use one?
Do you know how a tv works? No, you just turn it on and it works. Thats how a computer should work and not the other way around.
I did know a lot about computer years ago. Now i don't know much because i got tired of keeping up of how good cpu x is or which gfx card is the best.
The time where people actually used a solder to fix their motherboard (back in the amiga days) are long past.
Today if something is broken you most likely will toss it and replace it with something else.
The real hackerism is gone with most people.
So knowing about computers is most applied only to knowing what card to put in or what fits best. Do you know about hardware because of this?
Any modern OS that requires you to know hardware is a bad OS. Same as VHS recorder were bad which required you to know how to program these machines.

Yes
April 28th, 2010, 03:01 AM
eh it's not the same. in linux you love the konsole. in windows you have to search for it. and then you are still limited.

IIRC the command shell is just under Applications->Accessories->cmd, not like you really have to search for it. And from what I've heard, Windows Powershell is just as powerful as any shell available in Linux.

sxmaxchine
April 28th, 2010, 03:08 AM
i sot of agree but i have learnt more about programing on linux then on a windows machine with the exception of visual studio

kevin11951
April 28th, 2010, 03:33 AM
I have to say, you guys took this a little far...

I meant that, for example:

HDDs

Under Windows: C: D: E: F: etc....
Under Linux: primary: sda1 sdb2 extended: sda5 sdb6

Under linux the names more closely match the way hdds work, and dont mask it with uniform drive letters.

And there are over examples like the aforementioned networking example.

All i meant was that after using computers for a while, and doing a lot of sysadmin work, linux users seem more likely to under stand basic hardware info, then most others.

Edit: keep in mind that the majority of my "Linux" work is done on command line Debian servers. So, I may not be the best case for "average" linux use.

NMFTM
April 28th, 2010, 03:37 AM
I have to say, you guys took this a little far...
This is a Linux forum, I would be disappointed in the Ubuntu community if we didn't take it too far.

chessnerd
April 28th, 2010, 03:56 AM
To some degree this is true, but it is only true for a certain type of person: the type of person who is at least somewhat interested in computers. What I mean is that Linux is open enough that, if you are the slightest bit interested in learning, you will.

Linux gives you more opportunities to learn about hardware/software/operating systems/computers in general because it allows you to see into the core of the OS. It has a powerful command-line interface. It lets you edit configuration files. Windows and OS X hide these things or, at least, don't encourage their use. But even if you can get at them, you don't have to learn anything.

Let's say you go on Ubuntu Forums and post about a problem. Someone asks you to go to open a terminal window and type in some command that you don't know and you give them the output. They then tell you to edit some configuration file by removing the "#" from some line. You then reboot and your problem is fixed. Have you learned anything? Only if you wanted to. Otherwise you've simply fixed your problem and you're on your way.

You can never force anyone to learn anything. Making someone use Linux won't make them an expert in computing and might not teach them anything other than how to use Linux for day-to-day tasks. What it will do is give them more of a potential of becoming an expert, but they have to turn that potential into something themselves.

yester64
April 28th, 2010, 04:05 AM
I have to say, you guys took this a little far...

I meant that, for example:

HDDs

Under Windows: C: D: E: F: etc....
Under Linux: primary: sda1 sdb2 extended: sda5 sdb6

Under linux the names more closely match the way hdds work, and dont mask it with uniform drive letters.

And there are over examples like the aforementioned networking example.

All i meant was that after using computers for a while, and doing a lot of sysadmin work, linux users seem more likely to under stand basic hardware info, then most others.

Edit: keep in mind that the majority of my "Linux" work is done on command line Debian servers. So, I may not be the best case for "average" linux use.

:lolflag:

PurposeOfReason
April 28th, 2010, 06:27 AM
I have to say, you guys took this a little far...

I meant that, for example:

HDDs

Under Windows: C: D: E: F: etc....
Under Linux: primary: sda1 sdb2 extended: sda5 sdb6

Under linux the names more closely match the way hdds work, and dont mask it with uniform drive letters.

And there are over examples like the aforementioned networking example.

All i meant was that after using computers for a while, and doing a lot of sysadmin work, linux users seem more likely to under stand basic hardware info, then most others.

Edit: keep in mind that the majority of my "Linux" work is done on command line Debian servers. So, I may not be the best case for "average" linux use.
Bolded what struck me as odd. You're saying you know what it means, but sax[y] means nothing about primary and extended. Just drive letter/partition. I could have a primary drive of sde if I wanted and have the root partition be 4. Just plug the drive into the right port.

Really I'm just sick up people who think linux makes them computer intelligent. It makes them cocky.

Laxman_prodigy
April 28th, 2010, 07:21 AM
Lmao

blueturtl
April 28th, 2010, 07:59 AM
Oh give the guy a break. We all know what he's getting at anyway.

In Linux there is less abstraction to hide the what's beneath. There's no need to hide the wiring, it's there for easy access.

On Windows and Mac, they really go to lengths to hide the options and settings they wish their users didn't have.

I'd say a better phrasing would be that you learn more about how your operating system deals with hardware in Linux than on Windows or Mac. It can lead to learning about the hardware, but not necessarily.

mkendall
April 28th, 2010, 08:07 AM
If you use...
...Windows: A deep, dark, seething hatred (or is this just me?)
...Mac: Snobbery
...Linux: Anything you feel like learning

Bachstelze
April 28th, 2010, 08:10 AM
...Windows: A deep, dark, seething hatred (or is this just me?)

Yes, it is just you. The Mac one, too.

del_diablo
April 28th, 2010, 08:32 AM
If you use...
...Windows: A deep, dark, seething hatred (or is this just me?)
...Mac: Snobbery
...Linux: Anything you feel like learning

I disagree, Mac is "could have been a lot worse".

red_Marvin
April 28th, 2010, 12:17 PM
Linux does not inherently tell you more about hardware than windows/mac do, especially not at the levels any normal user would come into contact with. E.g. Linux does not teach the difference between interrupts and cyclic polling, or DMA, for that matter.

The possible difference is that linux will not try to stop you from poking around anywhere (exept if you are using proprietary drivers), but that is not the same thing as teaching.

Bachstelze
April 28th, 2010, 12:21 PM
E.g. Linux does not teach the difference between interrupts and cyclic polling, or DMA, for that matter.

*reminiscence of having to manually set IRQs in Win 95 to avoid hardware conflicts*

Chrysantine
April 28th, 2010, 12:25 PM
If you use...
...Windows: A deep, dark, seething hatred (or is this just me?)
...Mac: Snobbery
...Linux: Anything you feel like learning
Apparently you should add "Linux: Clueless fanboyism" to the list.

Seriously, I've been reading some of the threads here and one of them concerned another distribution where one Ubuntu user claimed the package management was from the 90's because it required root access and Ubuntu did not need this.

Made me chuckle a while, shake my head and walk away.

m4tic
April 28th, 2010, 12:26 PM
i know how to use linux, not how my graphic card works