PDA

View Full Version : work dress code



sandyd
April 10th, 2010, 05:55 AM
do you prefer a more relaxed dress code, oe do you think that dress codes should be kept strict? here at where I work, the IT staff all have a relaxed dress code, so I actually sometimes go to work wearing the same stuff that I would have worn, like when I was 17-18...

jrusso2
April 10th, 2010, 05:57 AM
IT staff has to wear business casual. I find that better then business but I think it should be relaxed I have torn some pretty nice pants on lifting servers and other equipment.

DubyBreaks
April 10th, 2010, 05:57 AM
Relaxed, I tend to work more efficient when I am comfortable.

lisati
April 10th, 2010, 06:05 AM
When there's direct face-to-face contact with the public, it might matter about the image presented. Otherwise I'd vote for something a bit more relaxed - casual but tidy. The scruffy side to my make-up makes me uncomfortable with the suit-and-tie approach to dress standards.

Disclaimer: the views expressed in this post are my own and should not be taken as representative of any groups of users of these forums.

dominiquec
April 10th, 2010, 06:15 AM
What about that stuff re: working in your pyjamas? :-P

chucky chuckaluck
April 10th, 2010, 06:15 AM
i wear shorts and teeshirts to work. i can't imagine ever having to go back to a dress coded place.

iponeverything
April 10th, 2010, 06:44 AM
I prefer no dress code, you just have to know your suit days. There is nothing like some vendor clown pushing an over-priced piece of junk and my being at a disadvantage in presenting better alternatives, based on how I look.. Right or not, we are judged on how we look.

NightwishFan
April 10th, 2010, 06:45 AM
I agree with the public appearances being kept, but for behind the scenes work it would just be fluff to need a formal dress code. Casual, friendly, and non offending wear.

Doctor Mike
April 10th, 2010, 06:45 AM
do you prefer a more relaxed dress code, oe do you think that dress codes should be kept strict? here at where I work, the IT staff all have a relaxed dress code, so I actually sometimes go to work wearing the same stuff that I would have worn, like when I was 17-18...I voted more strict not because I have anything against a relaxed dress code, but I feel it's important to present yourself well. The more professional you look the more respect you'll get. How does the department(s) head(s) dress? Just don't dress better than the boss...:)

RiceMonster
April 10th, 2010, 06:54 AM
I'm fine dressing business casual; it doesn't bother me. I've worked jobs like that before, and my upcoming job will be the same. Obviously more laid back would be nice, but I can live without.

wirepuller134
April 10th, 2010, 07:52 AM
We require Arc-flash uniforms for everyone. We supply them at no charge to the employee, so I voted for stricter.

koenn
April 10th, 2010, 08:32 AM
I voted more strict ... . The more professional you look the more respect you'll get. ...

I never understood that, and I doubt I ever will.
What on earth does clothing have to do with the skills or the knowledge ones job requires ? Why would "being professional" have to do more with what you put on than with the motivation, attitude, competence and work ethic you bring to your job ?

sxmaxchine
April 10th, 2010, 08:36 AM
i prefer to relaxed but there should be restrictions especially if you serve customers in person.

madhi19
April 10th, 2010, 08:47 AM
I work at home so the dress code is casual really casual! :lolflag:

fatality_uk
April 10th, 2010, 11:46 AM
Our senior management team have a stricter dress code, I can't really attend board meetings in jeans and a T-shirt :) but my dept, I usually allow smart casual with Friday being the day off.

beercz
April 10th, 2010, 11:47 AM
I work at home too, often on my own, so I could work in the nude if I wanted!

Khakilang
April 10th, 2010, 11:51 AM
People judge you by the way you dress because people are judgemental.

cascade9
April 10th, 2010, 12:01 PM
More casual. I know, I'm biased, I really hate pants- I always feel like I'm going to rip them. Ties are silly looking phallic symbols IMO as well.

BTW, what I think is really funny is the poor wage slaves I see going about where I live in full suits. Maybe it works in europe, and parts of north america. But when its 30-35C and 90% humidity (as it is quite often here, even todya and we are well into autumn), suits, or even pants and a businesss shirt is not only silly, its enviromental vandalism. Its nessecary to cool all those offices so that people in full suits dont sweat to death far more than if they wore clothing that suited the enviroment.


I never understood that, and I doubt I ever will.
What on earth does clothing have to do with the skills or the knowledge ones job requires ? Why would "being professional" have to do more with what you put on than with the motivation, attitude, competence and work ethic you bring to your job ?

+1. *thinks* make that +n, with 'n' being 'the biggest number you can think of'

samjh
April 10th, 2010, 12:41 PM
What on earth does clothing have to do with the skills or the knowledge ones job requires ? Why would "being professional" have to do more with what you put on than with the motivation, attitude, competence and work ethic you bring to your job ?

A person who takes care to present themselves professionally are generally more self-motivated, pay greater attention to detail, and take their work more seriously, than those who just don't bother.

IMHO, YMMV, of course.

Having said that, I voted for "relaxed". Positions where suits are ties are absolutely called for, are few and far between.

oxf
April 10th, 2010, 12:52 PM
I prefer smart casual where public contact is involved. I think its good to look nice and clean but you can do that with a more casual approach too. This notion of a suit and tie is rather strange in my opinion. As a consumer I am more comfortable dealing with an official who is not wearing a suit/tie. I find it rather off putting in fact!

keithpeter
April 10th, 2010, 12:53 PM
http://gizmodo.com/5503004/steve-jobs-and-eric-schmidt-spotted-together-again

couple of chaps my age having a chat over coffee. Is this not a sensible way to have meetings these days?

I'm a teacher and so try to a) set an example to some extent but also b) value what my students actually say and think (and get them to justify why the think what they do).

eriktheblu
April 10th, 2010, 01:11 PM
For at least the next 7 years, my dress code is outlined here (http://www.apd.army.mil/pdffiles/r670_1.pdf).

Works for me, but my opinion doesn't matter all that much.

jomiolto
April 10th, 2010, 01:13 PM
Dress code? What's that?

KegHead
April 10th, 2010, 02:14 PM
Hi!

I'm retired.

Dress code is unimportant.

When I worked, suit and tie everyday.

KegHead

infestor
April 10th, 2010, 02:22 PM
dress code is fascistic. people should be able to choose whatever they want to wear, not that someone else should impose on them what to wear.

Frogs Hair
April 10th, 2010, 03:00 PM
I prefer casual , but at one company we had customers coming from all over the world
on a regular basis . so the bar was raised a bit there, and company HQ was a block away.

oxf
April 10th, 2010, 07:16 PM
For at least the next 7 years, my dress code is outlined here (http://www.apd.army.mil/pdffiles/r670_1.pdf).

Works for me, but my opinion doesn't matter all that much.

That's quite a "detailed" manual!

What you mean they don't solicit consumer feedback?????? :(

toupeiro
April 10th, 2010, 07:27 PM
It depends..

If I'm working with the public, and am representing a company, I can understand a more formalized dress code.


However, backoffice infrastructure guys can get dirty. The main datacenter I support is right smack in the middle of an oil field. We've seen snakes, scorpions, and some wicked ugly spiders find their way inside. (and yes, it is a modernized datacenter, It's amazing how some of them make their way in. Sometimes its when doors are opened for extended amounts of time moving equipment or doing facilities work).

Most of the time I'm in an office setting, but sometimes I may have to go places which require full PPE gear which includes nomex, hard hats, steel toed boots, H2S sensors and many other things. So, no I don't always think of IT jobs as white-collar environments. The building I work in primarily does have tighter clothing policies than the field sites I also support, but I get away with jeans and polo-type shirts because of the different environments I have to work in. I couldn't imagine crawling around in some of these places with slacks, ties, and white button-ups, lifting multi-hundred pound storage arrays, pulling fiber, crawling all over 600-800mm racks or whatnot. In some conditions, that could be dangerous.

koenn
April 10th, 2010, 07:36 PM
A person who takes care to present themselves professionally are generally more self-motivated, pay greater attention to detail, and take their work more seriously, than those who just don't bother.

again: why does "present themselves professionally" translates to "wears a suite" or "conforms to the dress code (willingly or not)" in that sentence ?

NFblaze
April 10th, 2010, 07:37 PM
I prefer a casual type appearance, tho I am one of those persons who would wig out if I had to wear a tie and suit. I dont think I could accept a job unless I really needed it, if it required a tie and suit for the IT industry. For business and such I understand that that's like the orthodox for that industry.

IT's uniform's always tend to be a bit more on the relaxed side. Plaid shirt and cargo khakis is like universal. That's what I usually wear, but where I'm currently working it is even more laid back.

Doctor Mike
April 10th, 2010, 09:17 PM
I hope you'll forgive the pun... "What Not to Wear" on TLC, is the point I make about basically conservative dress. Have a bottom line that you do not cross. Have a cost account for your clothes (tax deduction in most regions) and consider where you want your career to go in ten years, please. Personal considerations will become less important to your future when you have children, if you choose to do so. But personal considerations always melt in the face of hindsight.

sandyd
April 11th, 2010, 02:48 AM
bump

RabbitWho
April 11th, 2010, 03:10 AM
I can't feel comfortable in formal clothes, my normal clothes or a uniform is fine. (But usually the jobs that make you wear a uniform are horrible so hopefully I'll never wear one again)

I don't think formal clothes for men are as horrible as for women, pants suits for girls are usually horrible and strangely shaped unless you go out and spend 100 euro on them. And I couldn't feel more uncomfortable in a skirt and tights.



A person who takes care to present themselves professionally are generally more self-motivated, pay greater attention to detail, and take their work more seriously, than those who just don't bother.

I don't think I could take my job more seriously. I wear almost my normal clothes except on weekends I don't mind if something is covered in paint or torn like I do on weekdays.

sgosnell
April 11th, 2010, 03:25 AM
I've worn a uniform of some sort for the past 40 years, and will until I retire. It goes with the career decisions. I'm not thrilled about it, and I would much prefer to fly in a t-shirt and jeans or shorts, but that isn't going to happen, so I wear what the company issues me. Some things aren't important enough to waste time worrying about. You either wear what the job requires or you find another job.

swoll1980
April 11th, 2010, 03:26 AM
I've been in sales for years, and I'm a firm believer that professional people should dress as such. People will take you more seriously, and show you more respect if you're dressed professionally. Not only do I know this from personal experience, but from others in the industry as well.

DoktorSeven
April 11th, 2010, 03:44 AM
If I can't wear a t-shirt and jeans, I'm not interested.

It's shallow to judge someone by the way he's dressed, period.

yabbadabbadont
April 11th, 2010, 04:10 AM
As long as no customers are visiting the office, we can get away with shorts and flip-flops. :D

(one of the perquisites of working in a company of only 20 people)

themarker0
April 11th, 2010, 04:13 AM
I worked as a student IT for H1N1 and the clean up, and i had to wear business attire everyday, which sucks, nice shirt and tie, after wearing a school uniform aswell.

swoll1980
April 11th, 2010, 04:29 AM
If I can't wear a t-shirt and jeans, I'm not interested.

It's shallow to judge someone by the way he's dressed, period.

It's not shallow it's built into your DNA. If you think two people can show up to an interview with equal qualifications, but one is clean cut wearing a suit, and the other is wearing ripped up jeans, and a T-shirt that decisions are not going to made based on appearance. You are not in the same world I live in.

Irihapeti
April 11th, 2010, 04:52 AM
I think it depends on who your clientele are. For maximum effect, you need to wear the kind of clothing they feel comfortable or familiar with. It may be stereotype or snobbery or what you will, but it's life. If you are markedly different, your job of being accepted will be that much harder.

It doesn't just apply to wearning suits in a corporate environment. If you are a social worker or counsellor working with homeless people, for example, you won't get very far if you are wearing suit and tie or lots of jewellery. I think the same would apply to someone turning up for an on-farm interview for an agricultural job in high-fashion city clothes.

jomiolto
April 11th, 2010, 06:00 AM
If I can't wear a t-shirt and jeans, I'm not interested.

+1 for this. If I lived somewhere warmer, you'd have to threaten me with a shotgun to get me to wear anything but shorts and a t-shirt (and socks and sandals, of course). Unfortunately, most of the year it's so friggin cold here that you have to bury yourself in a mountain of clothes :(

Too much clothing is uncomfortable.

earthpigg
April 11th, 2010, 06:20 AM
I agree with the public appearances being kept, but for behind the scenes work it would just be fluff to need a formal dress code.

this. letting the slobs look like slobs can't do anything but help me.


dress code is fascistic. people should be able to choose whatever they want to wear, not that someone else should impose on them what to wear.

^^ and i love that attitude! i'd love for that to be implemented. faster promotions, better sales if im a salesman, and more pay raises for me! enjoy your flip flops and struggling to pay mortgage.



in short: you dress for the occasion. if im selling stuff, i dress like the folks im selling to. if im selling myself, as i am when i want a promotion, i dress about as well as the boss - however that may be. i tend to flourish in chaos, so i'm all for zero dress code. less rules in general, for that matter, so i can have a relaxing time treading water, and being viewed as an Olympic Swimmer, while others drown.

trig
April 11th, 2010, 06:25 AM
I've been out of the job market for about 3 years now. Before that i was a factory worker. so I long to get dressed up every once and a while.

koenn
April 11th, 2010, 09:12 AM
I think it depends on who your clientele are. For maximum effect, you need to wear the kind of clothing they feel comfortable or familiar with. It may be stereotype or snobbery or what you will, but it's life. If you are markedly different, your job of being accepted will be that much harder.

It doesn't just apply to wearning suits in a corporate environment. If you are a social worker or counsellor working with homeless people, for example, you won't get very far if you are wearing suit and tie or lots of jewellery. I think the same would apply to someone turning up for an on-farm interview for an agricultural job in high-fashion city clothes.
I agree with this.
I'd add that you yourself would have to be comfortable with what you're wearing. If the clothes you 'have to' wear make you feel awkward, this is going to affect your performance and make things harder in much the same way that being "markedly different" does.

koenn
April 11th, 2010, 09:29 AM
It's not shallow it's built into your DNA. If you think two people can show up to an interview with equal qualifications, but one is clean cut wearing a suit, and the other is wearing ripped up jeans, and a T-shirt that decisions are not going to made based on appearance. You are not in the same world I live in.

If I was the one doing the hiring, and it becomes apparent in the course of the interview that the 'clean cut and wearing a suit' guy is only doing this for effect, I'd hire the other one. I prefer WYSIWYG.

Additional rationale behind this: the jeans and T-shirt guy has apparently enough confidence to expect to be able to overcome the 'disadvantage' of not wearing a suit, and to be hired solely on merit. Confidence => better potential in the long run.

CharlesA
April 11th, 2010, 11:03 AM
Makes me wonder if I am really, really lucky to get away with shorts + tshirt.

Small company is small.

@koenn: I'll wear slacks with a button-down shirt if I am doing interviews or if there are upper management around (CEO + President) or visitors.

Doctor Mike
April 11th, 2010, 02:43 PM
Carlee I'd like to point out something important. The majority of people are not considered for promotion, it's usually a small percentage. If a department head calls a meeting to announce that he/she are moving to the regional office and he/she will be selecting a replacement from the people at the meeting, that department head has already developed strong impressions about the people working under them.

Some people will start to dress better and others will talk up their abilities. The people that are already dressed well and provide consistent work will already be ahead of the others.

That said, the dress code for IT people is often different due to a particular organization's desire to have IT people appear more approachable.

I would be curious to know if your boss dresses better then the people under him/her.

koenn
April 11th, 2010, 05:39 PM
Makes me wonder if I am really, really lucky to get away with shorts + tshirt.

Small company is small.

@koenn: I'll wear slacks with a button-down shirt if I am doing interviews or if there are upper management around (CEO + President) or visitors.
"doing interviews", is that you doing the interviewing, or you being interviewed ?



just curious:
Say you get hired, and the fact that you were wearing a shirt / suite / tie / ... during the job interview wasae major factor in getting the job (the other guy was equally qualified but showed up in jeans and T-shirt ...), would you be comfortable having to wear that type of clothes the rest of your career ?. If yes, no problem.
If not, and you start showing up in, say, shorts and flip-flops, are you still the employee the company thought it was hiring ?
Imo, this is similar to lying during a job interview, and that's a deal breaker.

red_Marvin
April 11th, 2010, 06:35 PM
I've been in sales for years, and I'm a firm believer that professional people should dress as such. People will take you more seriously, and show you more respect if you're dressed professionally. Not only do I know this from personal experience, but from others in the industry as well.
As long as "professional" means "improving the ability to do the work" and not "suit" I'm fine with it. If I am doing anything technical I would say that something with a lot of tool pockets is way more professional than a tie that gets stuck in the fax machine I'm servicing. I guess that in some cases the first interpretation can include the second, but right off the bat it often seems that the second interpretation is the one intended from the one saying it.

sgosnell
April 12th, 2010, 01:21 AM
In this context, professional means dressing appropriately for the job at hand. You don't necessarily wear the same clothes on the job that you wear for an interview, nor does everyone always wear the same clothes to work every day. Dressing professionally means being able to wear shorts, business casual, a suit, or whatever is required, whenever required. I know of many places where people dress very casually much of the time, but keep dressier clothes on hand, often a jacket and tie, just in case they need to dress up for some reason. If you can't be flexible about that and fit in well, you won't do well in the job.

Wearing shorts and a t-shirt to an interview doesn't just project confidence, it projects a lack of respect and caring about the job. You may believe it's fine, but the people doing the hiring almost always believe differently. If you're applying for a job on a farm, you obviously shouldn't wear a suit, but you can at least show up in neat and clean clothes. You need to show that you care about getting the job, or you likely won't get the job.

jflaker
April 12th, 2010, 01:24 AM
I can HALF understand why a dress code is needed.

I can not understand why a suit and tie would ever be required as they are never comfortable and can contribute to stress...

I worked for one company where the dress code was, use common sense as far as covering up, otherwise there was no written code.....Jeans and tshirt was the norm and slippers weren't uncommon. That was the best company, but the politics sucked.

CharlesA
April 12th, 2010, 01:37 AM
"doing interviews", is that you doing the interviewing, or you being interviewed ?

Being interviewed. I'm fine if I have to wear "business casual" but I prefer jeans (or shorts) and a t-shirt.

I am lucky to be at a small company who doesn't mind it. I even talk to HR about it and they were fine with shorts and a t-shirt. I guess as long as I am getting the job done, it doesn't really matter.

Roasted
April 12th, 2010, 03:46 AM
I find IT's average dress code to be the most retarded thing ever.

Ever wear a tie while bending over trying to fix a computer?
Ever wear a polo while running ethernet cable through a 50 year old building?
Ever been in khakis while on your knees wire tying bundles of cable to make them look neat?

sandyd
April 12th, 2010, 03:48 AM
Carlee I'd like to point out something important. The majority of people are not considered for promotion, it's usually a small percentage. If a department head calls a meeting to announce that he/she are moving to the regional office and he/she will be selecting a replacement from the people at the meeting, that department head has already developed strong impressions about the people working under them.

Some people will start to dress better and others will talk up their abilities. The people that are already dressed well and provide consistent work will already be ahead of the others.

That said, the dress code for IT people is often different due to a particular organization's desire to have IT people appear more approachable.

I would be curious to know if your boss dresses better then the people under him/her.
hmm. now that I think of it, she does. however, i think thats just becasue she has to go to more meetings than I do :| while shes not doing meetings, she dresses like the rest of the IT staff. probably because she doesnt want the staff to think shees "higher" or anything, but instead on the same level.

eh. doesnt really matter if im approachable or not cause im only one level lower than the IT head. I just sit there and tell the other people what to do. doesnt really matter what I wear either, cause

a) the people i work with already knew me (i **used** to dress nice, but i got tired of it, and as a result...)

b) if you already know me, dressing differently isnt going to improve what you think of me

c) its impossible for me to work outside in 24+ degrees in a suit (well, it isnt 24+ right now, but still, i wore a sweatshirt and a tshirt to work today....

d) my truck (used for mobile IT stuff) has crappy air conditioning. im thinking of brining it into the closest gararge for a A/C tuneup...

Giant Speck
April 12th, 2010, 03:50 AM
I'm in the military. Therefore, on Mondays, I wear my dress uniform and on any other day, I wear my utility uniform. The only times I've ever been allowed to wear anything more casual than that was on Thanksgiving and Christmas, when we get to wear civilian clothes.

sandyd
April 12th, 2010, 03:53 AM
In this context, professional means dressing appropriately for the job at hand. You don't necessarily wear the same clothes on the job that you wear for an interview, nor does everyone always wear the same clothes to work every day. Dressing professionally means being able to wear shorts, business casual, a suit, or whatever is required, whenever required. I know of many places where people dress very casually much of the time, but keep dressier clothes on hand, often a jacket and tie, just in case they need to dress up for some reason. If you can't be flexible about that and fit in well, you won't do well in the job.
our entire IT department actually knows that ;)
you should have seen what happened when the CEO came in for an unplanned visit :P ;)

It took me 3-5 minutes to change back to what people could call "professional".
luckily, all I had to do was sit there and pretend to be busy...
I pitty the others who had to continue providing support and repairing stuff while wearing a suit/tie....

Wearing shorts and a t-shirt to an interview doesn't just project confidence, it projects a lack of respect and caring about the job. You may believe it's fine, but the people doing the hiring almost always believe differently. If you're applying for a job on a farm, you obviously shouldn't wear a suit, but you can at least show up in neat and clean clothes. You need to show that you care about getting the job, or you likely won't get the job.
hmm. didnt apply for me, since I got a reccomendation from both my previous employer and a few of my friends who worked there.

.

sandyd
April 12th, 2010, 03:54 AM
i find it's average dress code to be the most retarded thing ever.

Ever wear a tie while bending over trying to fix a computer?
Ever wear a polo while running ethernet cable through a 50 year old building?
Ever been in khakis while on your knees wire tying bundles of cable to make them look neat?
this
+1

koenn
April 12th, 2010, 06:16 PM
... Dressing professionally means being able to wear [..]whatever is required, whenever required.


Wearing shorts and a t-shirt to an interview doesn't just project confidence, it projects a lack of respect and caring about the job. ... .

I more or less agree with what you say there. The thing is, I can't imagine any situation that would actually require wearing a jacket and tie, or even a dress shirt. The only "reason" I can think of is that your boss expects you to, or the people you come in contact with on the job (customers, business contacts, ... ) expect you to - and then you can ask yourself for what reason, other than tradition, they'd expect that,..
Suits, business casual, etc are really just a continuation of 18th century merchant fashion. And it's not that they have any real relation with the activity you do on the job, contrary to, say, a safety helmet, protective gloves, steel tip boots, ...


I always went to job interviews in the clothes I normally wear - mostly 'jeans and t-shirts' style. If that ever was a reason for me not getting the job, I would most likely not have fit in in that company's culture anyway, so I don't see that as a loss. On the other hand, when I did get the job, I also had instant confirmation that my appearance and clothing style was acceptable to them.

whiskeylover
April 12th, 2010, 06:28 PM
I can HALF understand why a dress code is needed.

I can not understand why a suit and tie would ever be required as they are never comfortable and can contribute to stress...

I worked for one company where the dress code was, use common sense as far as covering up, otherwise there was no written code.....Jeans and tshirt was the norm and slippers weren't uncommon. That was the best company, but the politics sucked.


Really? Imagine walking into a bank for applying for a home loan, only to be greeted by the bank manager in shorts and a Hawaiian shirt. I wouldn't trust that bank too much.

There are some scenarios where you don't get taken seriously if you don't dress formally. A real estate agent or a lawyer in a courtroom are some examples.

On the other hand, IT people, who're not customer facing, should not be required to dress formally - I agree with you on that one. But, saying that a suit and a tie should never be required is silly.

A lot of how people perceive you depends on how you dress. If you are very good at what you, but dress sloppily, you wont inspire a lot of confidence in your customers (who don't previously know you.)

whiskeylover
April 12th, 2010, 06:35 PM
I more or less agree with what you say there. The thing is, I can't imagine any situation that would actually require wearing a jacket and tie, or even a dress shirt. The only "reason" I can think of is that your boss expects you to, or the people you come in contact with on the job (customers, business contacts, ... ) expect you to - and then you can ask yourself for what reason, other than tradition, they'd expect that,..
Suits, business casual, etc are really just a continuation of 18th century merchant fashion. And it's not that they have any real relation with the activity you do on the job, contrary to, say, a safety helmet, protective gloves, steel tip boots, ...

Isn't each and every type of dress code there because people expect you to wear them? For example, you don't walk into a night club in you pajamas. You don't go to a funeral wearing a prom dress. You don't go write code wearing a tuxedo. People expect you to adhere to a certain dress code in certain situations.

aysiu
April 12th, 2010, 06:48 PM
Clothes are like language. The meaning they have is based on consensus.

If the consensus is that formal wear conveys seriousness of purpose, then it won't really matter to your customers or boss if you wear casual wear with the intent of being serious.

I'm glad Koenn has the luxury of wearing casual clothes to every job interview and still getting jobs. Not all of us have that luxury. At some jobs, it is just more appropriate in the cultural context in which we live in (i.e., not the non-existent cultural vacuum where clothes have no meaning) to have formal dress.

At my current job, I dress formally, because I am in a customer service role that greets a lot of visitors to the school who know nothing about the school. The teachers, who don't have as much direct contact with these parents, can dress more informally. If I dressed in shorts and flip-flops, I know my boss would have a talk with me about it. If that persisted, the head of school would have a talk with me. And if it still persisted, I would be fired.

It's not because shorts and flip-flops are bad things in and of themselves. They just aren't appropriate for my current job. They were fine at my last job. At my last job I had absolutely zero contact with the general public, so I wore a t-shirt and flip-flops, and everyone at my workplace liked it and thought it was quirky. In fact, there was one day my whole department wore my outfit to take the mick out of me. It was hilarious.

koenn
April 12th, 2010, 07:09 PM
Isn't each and every type of dress code there because people expect you to wear them? For example, you don't walk into a night club in you pajamas. You don't go to a funeral wearing a prom dress. You don't go write code wearing a tuxedo. People expect you to adhere to a certain dress code in certain situations.

Hm, yes, but I find those just as irrational, and I usually don't follow them. I don't go to funerals in pajamas, but I do go there in t-shirt and jeans. Probably not my brightest pink T-shirt, though.
For clubs and things like that, if they have a dress code that doesn't match the types of clothes I'm comfortable with, I'm not going to be comfortable in that club anyhow, so why bother ?


There's a certain level of prejudice in all of those dress codes. If you read through this thread, you'll notice that people associate suits/smart casual/business casual/... with trust, respect, motivation, ... The flip side is that people in other types of clothes are ... not to be trusted ? not to be respected ?

If I'm a lazy no good S.O.B., does putting on a shirt and tie in the morning suddenly turn me into a higly motivated professional who commands respect and deserves to be trusted with the company's assets ?
If not, then what's that dress code good for ?

whiskeylover
April 12th, 2010, 07:17 PM
Hm, yes, but I find those just as irrational, and I usually don't follow them. I don't go to funerals in pajamas, but I do go there in t-shirt and jeans. Probably not my brightest pink T-shirt, though.
For clubs and things like that, if they have a dress code that doesn't match the types of clothes I'm comfortable with, I'm not going to be comfortable in that club anyhow, so why bother ?


There's a certain level of prejudice in all of those dress codes. If you read through this thread, you'll notice that people associate suits/smart casual/business casual/... with trust, respect, motivation, ... The flip side is that people in other types of clothes are ... not to be trusted ? not to be respected ?

If I'm a lazy no good S.O.B., does putting on a shirt and tie in the morning suddenly turn me into a higly motivated professional who commands respect and deserves to be trusted with the company's assets ?
If not, then what's that dress code good for ?

I do agree with you on certain points, but it still doesn't change the fact that people will perceive you based on how you're dressed. For example, my real estate agent is a smart lady who dresses sharply. She automatically commands attention and confidence. I'm more likely to take her word at face value. Now if she had met me on my first day in a tshirt and pajamas, I'd have been like "Is she in high school? Can I trust her?"

I know, I'm making these assumptions based on appearances, but that's human nature. If nobody ever gave a thought to the way people dressed, we'd all be roaming around in the n00dz.

swoll1980
April 12th, 2010, 07:41 PM
A suit is designed to create the appearance of a slimmer waste, and broader shoulders. This implants a subconscious idea into the the brains of everyone that sees you that you are a good worker, and have leadership abilities. How many times have you seen a man/women in a suite, and thought they were lazy, or unmotivated? There is a reason for this other than culture.

koenn
April 12th, 2010, 07:48 PM
For example, my real estate agent is a smart lady who dresses sharply. She automatically commands attention and confidence.
Yes.
And she knows that, and most likely picked those clothes for that exact effect. Once you realize that, does it really matter what she wears ?


A suit is designed to create the appearance of a slimmer waste, and broader shoulders. This implants a subconscious idea into the the brains of everyone that sees you that you are a good worker, and have leadership abilities.
Same question - once you realize it's a trick, does it still work ?

whiskeylover
April 12th, 2010, 07:53 PM
Yes.
And she knows that, and most likely picked those clothes for that exact effect. Once you realize that, does it really matter what she wears ?




"Once you realize that" is the keyphrase here. You can fire her if you don't find her good enough. But how likely are you (or the general public) to hire her in the first place with sloppy dressing style?

swoll1980
April 12th, 2010, 07:54 PM
Yes.
And she knows that, and most likely picked those clothes for that exact effect. Once you realize that, does it really matter what she wears ?


Same question - once you realize it's a trick, does it still work ?

The suit can give you an edge. It obviously isn't going to sell a product, sell your idea, or sell you to an interviewer on it's own, but it can go along way towards increasing your credibility. Would you hire a real estate agent that wore shorts and sandals?

koenn
April 12th, 2010, 08:06 PM
Clothes are like language. The meaning they have is based on consensus.

yes, and is largely cultural.
In any case, it's subject to change, just like how languages evolve and words can shift meaning ...




I'm glad Koenn has the luxury of wearing casual clothes to every job interview and still getting jobs. Not all of us have that luxury. At some jobs, it is just more appropriate in the cultural context in which we live in (i.e., not the non-existent cultural vacuum where clothes have no meaning) to have formal dress.

It's a luxury, in a way. Kind of the same luxury as quitting your job because you want to change the direction your life is heading - so more of a 'I make the choice and bear the consequences' type of thing.

swoll1980
April 12th, 2010, 08:11 PM
When I was in mortgage banking, I was the only one in the company that didn't dress down on casual Fridays, besides the upper management. They would compliment me all the time on how nice I looked. I ended up receiving preferential treatment, and I have no doubt that it was because of this. The other employees said I was kissing butt, but I was doing it for myself. The effect it had on the management was just a side effect.

aysiu
April 12th, 2010, 08:14 PM
yes, and is largely cultural.
In any case, it's subject to change, just like how languages evolve and words can shift meaning ... But in the meantime that's what it currently means. If, 100 years from now, people decide jeans and t-shirts are formal... or that formality isn't appropriate for the workplace, then your dream world will emerge.


It's a luxury, in a way. Kind of the same luxury as quitting your job because you want to change the direction your life is heading - so more of a 'I make the choice and bear the consequences' type of thing. I don't feel that strongly about dress code that I'm going to quit my job. I like my job for many other reasons. Also, generally speaking, if you quit your job because you want to change the direction your life is heading, you should have another job lined up... and if you insist on wearing jeans and a t-shirt to every job interview, your options for new jobs slim down considerably.

koenn
April 12th, 2010, 08:16 PM
The suit can give you an edge. It obviously isn't going to sell a product, sell your idea, or sell you to an interviewer on it's own, but it can go along way towards increasing your credibility. Would you hire a real estate agent that wore shorts and sandals?

You should read the thread.
Yes, I would, just like I would hire the guy that shows up to a job interview in shorts and T shirt. I've done that, in fact.
I mean, the shorts, sandals, T shirt wouldn't be the reason I hire them, they'd still have to meet my selection criteria and all that, but I wouldn't dismiss them or rate them lower because of it.


I actually have the same thing with sales people. I don't trust them, no matter how many suits they wear. If a sales rep would show up in jeans and sneakers, he'd probably get my attention and interest a lot faster than the suited type.

koenn
April 12th, 2010, 08:18 PM
But in the meantime that's what it currently means. If, 100 years from now, people decide jeans and t-shirts are formal... or that formality isn't appropriate for the workplace, then your dream world will emerge.

It's not about dreaming, I know how reality works, including dress codes. It's that sometimes I decide not to play along.

whiskeylover
April 12th, 2010, 08:22 PM
You should read the thread.
Yes, I would, just like I would hire the guy that shows up to a job interview in shorts and T shirt. I've done that, in fact.
I mean, the shorts, sandals, T shirt wouldn't be the reason I hire them, they'd still have to meet my selection criteria and all that, but I wouldn't dismiss them or rate them lower because of it.


I actually have the same thing with sales people. I don't trust them, no matter how many suits they wear. If a sales rep would show up in jeans and sneakers, he'd probably get my attention and interest a lot faster than the suited type.

Just because you're being a non-conformist, does not mean that the whole world is about to change to suit your preferences. 99% of people will still judge people by the way they dress, so its in most people's best interest to be dressed in a way appropriate to the situation.

koenn
April 12th, 2010, 08:23 PM
... and if you insist on wearing jeans and a t-shirt to every job interview, your options for new jobs slim down considerably.
that's what I said: make the choice, accept the consequences.

Dragonbite
April 12th, 2010, 08:23 PM
This office just went from requiring shirt and tie to work-casual, which means we don't have to wear a tie, but we still have to wear shirts with collars.

I'm mixed on which I prefer.

On the one side, dressed up for work does give a professional feel, but on the other being casual and relaxed makes it more comfortable for work, even when it's still a button-down shirt.

Friday we get to wear jeans and t-shirts but without (blaring) logos.

Management, of course, reserves the right to call it a "non-dress-down-day", but that's only when large clients ($100,000 deals or bigger) or political heads are going to be present.

Unfortunately, it makes it a hassle to wear all of the holiday-themed ties my kids have given me through the years! ;)

swoll1980
April 12th, 2010, 08:26 PM
I actually have the same thing with sales people. I don't trust them, no matter how many suits they wear. If a sales rep would show up in jeans and sneakers, he'd probably get my attention and interest a lot faster than the suited type.

Good luck ever selling your house if your agent is wearing shorts, and sandals. Currently I'm doing door to door sales for Kirby vacuum cleaners. There is no dress code, but I can tell you 100% that it takes the people wearing jeans about 4x longer to knock into a house. They usually get frustrated, and leave the company, or quickly learn that the people in suites do way more demos, and sell way more vacuums. This is not a coincidence, and I used to be one of those jeans people on my original stint with them years ago so I speak from experience. It didn't take me very long to figure it out.

koenn
April 12th, 2010, 08:28 PM
Just because you're being a non-conformist, does not mean that the whole world is about to change to suit your preferences. 99% of people will still judge people by the way they dress, so its in most people's best interest to be dressed in a way appropriate to the situation.
Yeah, but IIRC this thread started as a poll, so everything here is just opinion.
I don't see much point in dress codes, and a don't feel particularry comfortable wearing a suit.
Doesn't mean other people should quit their jobs or that I expect everyone to wear jeans and t-shirts or go to job interviews in a speedo
:-)

Dragonbite
April 12th, 2010, 08:43 PM
According to one of my college teachers, there was a student that did not bathe for a week (or wash his clothes), drove his motercycle up to Maine (don't know where in Maine) and went to a BMW dealership.

He wanted to test drive one of their cars. He got the run-around and basically never got into one of their cars.

Then he went into the hotel room he rented for the night, showered and shaved. He put on a suite and carried a briefcase back to the BMW place and walked in about 5 minutes before closing.

He managed to keep them open for a couple of hours and got the test drive.

Then he commented "gee, you weren't so nice to me when I first came in." The manager was very embarrassed when she realized what had happened.

While wearing shorts and a t-shirt is not the same as not showering for a week, I just thought this was a fun story.

:)

sandyd
April 19th, 2010, 01:43 PM
bump

Viva
April 19th, 2010, 01:48 PM
Strict

ve4cib
April 19th, 2010, 04:25 PM
I (like many people in this thread) work as a programmer/developer/professional corporate code-monkey (well, until I go back to school for my master's in the fall -- then I get to be am under-paid graduate student!). I've worked in a few different places (ranging from IT security with a big oil company in Alberta, to the Department of National Defense, to small businesses), each with varying dress codes.

Working with the DND I was on an airbase, so I was surrounded by people in uniforms (battle dress for the most-part, with a few people wearing flight jumpsuits, and the occasional dress uniform), but the department I was in was entirely-civillian. We were expected to wear nice trousers and a shirt with a collar. No "casual Fridays", but it was a pretty relaxed dress code. I tend to wear collared shirts a lot anyway, so that wasn't a big change.

The oil company had different dress codes for different departments. Anyone dealing with corporate customers had to wear the whole suit-and-tie deal, while the "behind-the-scenes" people got to wear "business casual." Again, that's basically just non-jeans and a shirt with a collar. Fridays were casual, so the jeans/zip-offs/shorts showed up, but most people still wore a shirt with a collar (usually a golf- or rugby-style shirt).

The small businesses I've worked for have had much more relaxed dress codes. Jeans, t-shirts, running shoes, whatever. As long as you can wear it in public and not look like you're some sort of vagrant and/or get arrested for wearing it it's generally acceptable.

As for what I prefer, I'm torn. I tend to wear business-casual clothes most of the time anyway. I don't think I'd want to wear a suit to work every day; sitting at a desk writing code doesn't require formal attire in my opinion. I'm not a huge fan of having to wear a tie all the time, but there are worse things to do. And besides, there's something classy about a workplace where everyone looks like this:

http://www.udel.edu/physics/scen103/ZING/Apollo13MissionControl1.jpg

koenn
April 19th, 2010, 05:22 PM
And besides, there's something classy about a workplace where everyone looks like this:

http://www.udel.edu/physics/scen103/ZING/Apollo13MissionControl1.jpg
Looks like they're having a problem ...





Anyway, I prefer Google's approach
http://www.google.com/jobs/images/accent_googlerdog_bg.jpg

HermanAB
April 19th, 2010, 07:28 PM
Well, you know your work dress is inappropriate when you get modded down on chatroulette...

avaralom
April 19th, 2010, 07:53 PM
I would take anything at this point as long as it's not khaki pants and a blue polo shirt everyday. Wearing a uniform has to be ten times worse than any sort of dress code - you still have a bit of choice in what you get to wear!

-humanaut-
April 19th, 2010, 09:57 PM
I work from home right now'til im done with school and RHCE' (PC repairs and Custom Builds) and I do light Linux Deployment so whatever happens to be clean is what I wear

LowSky
April 19th, 2010, 10:26 PM
I would take anything at this point as long as it's not khaki pants and a blue polo shirt everyday. Wearing a uniform has to be ten times worse than any sort of dress code - you still have a bit of choice in what you get to wear!

Did you work at Best Buy?

I actually prefer a uniform if a company is to present itself to customers. But I hate the polo shirt used for dress codes. A regular button down is far better looking than a polo any day. When I worked for a certain retail chain the only Identification of the person working there was a lanyard with a name badge attached and too ofter employees would take it off so they wouldn't be bothered by customers.

But a strict dress code is not helpful to regular cubical drones. In these environments allowing people to express themselves leads to better creativity and more production.

MindSz
April 19th, 2010, 10:27 PM
Jeans and T-shirt do it for me ... I do get to wear the fancy stuff when I have meetings and stuff tho.

bance
April 19th, 2010, 10:32 PM
I'm a builder,
So in the winter warm, in the summer loose and comfortable, and with a client always formal!

sandyd
April 20th, 2010, 04:35 AM
[bitofftopic]these rock btw
http://picasaweb.google.com/zurich.office.images/ZurichOfficePhotos#
I wish I worked there :D

the yawner
April 20th, 2010, 07:37 AM
On my previous company there was initially no specific dress code. Just don't wear slippers. And then as the small company grew, they decided to at least have a company branded collared shirt as uniform.

But on my new job I was required to wear a dress shirt and tie for about a year. I abhorred the idea, as it was not something I'd ever imagine myself wearing. But oddly enough, I actually grew fond of it. I even enjoyed learning to tie my own tie. :D

Dragonbite
April 20th, 2010, 04:14 PM
[bitofftopic]these rock btw
http://picasaweb.google.com/zurich.office.images/ZurichOfficePhotos#
I wish I worked there :D

AMEN to THAT!

MindSz
April 20th, 2010, 04:23 PM
I even enjoyed learning to tie my own tie. :D

I had to learn that in Elementary school. They actually made me wear pants, dress shirt, and tie until I got to High-school.

I'm glad I don't have to dress like that everyday now...

Dragonbite
April 20th, 2010, 04:26 PM
I had to learn that in Elementary school. They actually made me wear pants, dress shirt, and tie until I got to High-school.

I'm glad I don't have to dress like that everyday now...

Now you don't have to wear pants? :lolflag:

Our company is looking at setting up Summer Hours; we get to leave Fridays around 2:00 PM, but we have to make up whatever time difference the rest of the week.

miles2152
April 20th, 2010, 10:34 PM
I prefer a more relaxed dress code. It was one of the reasons I live in SC USA and I left my insurance job many years ago because I got tired of wearing shirts and ties in 90 degree heat during the Summer among other reasons.

forrestcupp
April 20th, 2010, 11:13 PM
I'm alright with whatever the dress code is. It should normally suit the job.

But one thing I don't understand is "Casual Fridays". I think that is a ridiculous concept. If it is really important to wear formal dress on Monday - Thursday, then why is it not important on Friday, too? But if it's not really important to wear formal dress on Fridays, then it's not really important to dress that way on Monday - Thursday.

In my opinion, either make it always formal, or always relaxed.

ve4cib
April 21st, 2010, 12:29 AM
I'm alright with whatever the dress code is. It should normally suit the job.

But one thing I don't understand is "Casual Fridays". I think that is a ridiculous concept. If it is really important to wear formal dress on Monday - Thursday, then why is it not important on Friday, too? But if it's not really important to wear formal dress on Fridays, then it's not really important to dress that way on Monday - Thursday.

In my opinion, either make it always formal, or always relaxed.

Similar arguments can be made about all sorts of things. If it's important to be at work Monday-Friday, why isn't it important to be at work on Saturday and Sunday?

Casual Fridays are really more of a morale thing for employees than anything else. Companies with a formal dress code have an obvious desire to portray some kind of serious, professional public image. But forcing all of your cubical drones to subscribe to that image every single day leads to disgruntlement and the possible theft of a red Swingline stapler. Fridays are typically more relaxed than any other day of the week anyway; it's almost the weekend, lots of people book holidays on Fridays, etc... So you give the employees one day out of every five where they can let their hair down, take off the tie, and wear something more comfortable. It also gives the CEOs a day to take their suits to the dry-cleaner's.

I'm not saying it makes the most sense, but being able to dress-down is a nice way to lead into the weekend.

Doug11
April 21st, 2010, 12:35 AM
Business relaxed is nice. Who wants to be working on something wearing a suit.

redmegaman
April 21st, 2010, 02:30 AM
One of my favorite parts of my job is that there is no official dress code. As long as I look decent they dont care.

Yes
April 21st, 2010, 03:04 AM
I have to wear jeans, t-shirt, and a hat. I've also got to tie my hair back cause it's pretty long. Washing dishes in a dress shirt and tie would be pretty silly :)

forrestcupp
April 21st, 2010, 01:42 PM
Similar arguments can be made about all sorts of things. If it's important to be at work Monday-Friday, why isn't it important to be at work on Saturday and Sunday?Well, there are obvious reasons of why people shouldn't work 7 days a week. And, like it or not, there are reasons why Saturday and Sunday were chosen to let people off. But there are also a lot of companies where Saturday and Sunday are important, and if it is important, they have people working.


Casual Fridays are really more of a morale thing for employees than anything else.
I understand the point of Casual Fridays. But again, if it's not important on Fridays, why any other day? Why not just boost people's morale every day. Or if Friday is looked at as a slouch day, why not really boost people's morale and give them Fridays off so they'll work harder every other day (lol, I know that wouldn't really work)?

But if it really is important, then those same reasons should apply to Friday, too.

I'm basically saying that companies who have casual Fridays are just proving that their reasons for having a more formal dress code are not viable.

matchett808
April 21st, 2010, 01:57 PM
Where I work we are casual fridays with business dress the rest of the week.

In a sales environment with incentives etc, casual fridays aren't important because 'morale' is kept up by internal competition......anyone who isn't inspired by competition is in the wrong job....

.......I personally don't observe casual friday usually, I do sometimes and my boss knows how I feel about it (just that I would rather make the efort 5 days out of 5 rather than 4 out of 5)

....and business dress can be a shirt + tie w/ jumper.....it looks good, is comfortable and the bosses appreciate the effort.......

....My way of doing it adds an extra positive point for me on the big bosses radar, which means that maybe a year from now, I could get a promotion etc over someone who observes casual friday.

Zerocool Djx
April 21st, 2010, 02:11 PM
We where discussing this with my friends at the new web design firm we are starting.. We came up with a common answer,... Professional Casual... You don't need to wear a suit and tie per-say, but if you show up in a hoodie and ripped jeans you might give the wrong impression to a client. So dress for success or dress for the job you want not the job you have. Higher paying clients expect more.

Zerocool Djx
April 21st, 2010, 02:14 PM
Where I work we are casual fridays with business dress the rest of the week.

In a sales environment with incentives etc, casual fridays aren't important because 'morale' is kept up by internal competition......anyone who isn't inspired by competition is in the wrong job....

.......I personally don't observe casual friday usually, I do sometimes and my boss knows how I feel about it (just that I would rather make the efort 5 days out of 5 rather than 4 out of 5)

....and business dress can be a shirt + tie w/ jumper.....it looks good, is comfortable and the bosses appreciate the effort.......

....My way of doing it adds an extra positive point for me on the big bosses radar, which means that maybe a year from now, I could get a promotion etc over someone who observes casual friday.


Suck up! :P




(just kidding! good for you!)

madnessjack
April 21st, 2010, 02:18 PM
Where I work we are casual fridays with business dress the rest of the week.

In a sales environment with incentives etc, casual fridays aren't important because 'morale' is kept up by internal competition......anyone who isn't inspired by competition is in the wrong job....

.......I personally don't observe casual friday usually, I do sometimes and my boss knows how I feel about it (just that I would rather make the efort 5 days out of 5 rather than 4 out of 5)

....and business dress can be a shirt + tie w/ jumper.....it looks good, is comfortable and the bosses appreciate the effort.......

....My way of doing it adds an extra positive point for me on the big bosses radar, which means that maybe a year from now, I could get a promotion etc over someone who observes casual friday.

This was the case for us, and I used to look forward to Fridays so much :)

We're doing a trial now of "do what you want". So basically, if we're in meetings we dress up, else, jeans and a t-shirt. Some folks like dressing up casual though, so it's down to what the individual wants.

I do miss being excited about fridays though

sandyd
May 17th, 2010, 03:53 PM
bump.

lykwydchykyn
May 17th, 2010, 04:36 PM
I'm thankful to work in a place without a dress code. If I can't wear jeans I'm miserable. Dress pants give me a wedgie and make me feel like their either going to rip apart or deposit the contents of my pockets on the floor.

The funny thing is, they provide me with a bunch of uniform shirts every year but don't require me to actually wear them. I do most of the time anyway, just because it helps me get in "work mode".

That said, I understand the value of dressing nice when it's called for. It's just rarely called for in my situation.

Dragonbite
May 17th, 2010, 04:54 PM
When I worked in retail, often I wore a tie even though it wasn't required.

Apart from the occasional customer thinking I was in management I did find that overall people treated, reacted and communicated with me differently than when I did not dress nicely.

While it isn't as important as "acting the position you want", it makes it easier for others to treat you like you are in the position you want.

cprofitt
May 17th, 2010, 10:41 PM
I voted more strict not because I have anything against a relaxed dress code, but I feel it's important to present yourself well. The more professional you look the more respect you'll get. How does the department(s) head(s) dress? Just don't dress better than the boss...:)


Makes you wonder how Steve Jobs gets any respect. :P

madnessjack
May 18th, 2010, 09:36 AM
Makes you wonder how Steve Jobs gets any respect. :P
It's called idiocy :P

julio_cortez
May 18th, 2010, 10:07 AM
It depends on the occasion, here, but we've not a strict dress code. It's all about presenting ourselves well.

I usually wear shirt and jeans (maybe with a suit jacket if it's the case I have to meet a customer, once or twice I also used a tie and trousers), otherwise when I'm in office like today I usually wear a polo shirt (or t-shirt) and jeans, with a sweater when it's cold.

I used to wear t-shirts all the way (and even football shirts in special occasions) when I was a system builder, but now things have changed.
If my UL saw me with a football shirt here in office he'd probably send me home to replace it :)

Tristam Green
May 18th, 2010, 12:14 PM
Makes you wonder how Steve Jobs gets any respect. :P

simple - he's the boss, therefore he makes the rules.

plus he's from a long-since-past era of hobbyists forging the rules in IT.

Dragonbite
May 18th, 2010, 02:14 PM
Makes you wonder how Steve Jobs gets any respect. :P

Really neat-o mock turtlenecks!

pwnst*r
May 18th, 2010, 02:50 PM
IT staff has to wear business casual. I find that better then business but I think it should be relaxed I have torn some pretty nice pants on lifting servers and other equipment.

^this, although if you're working anywhere near or in an HQ corp environment, it's definitely business.

RiceMonster
May 18th, 2010, 02:58 PM
simple - he's the boss, therefore he makes the rules.

plus he's from a long-since-past era of hobbyists forging the rules in IT.

Absolutely, he's the baws

sgosnell
May 18th, 2010, 04:12 PM
People always have, and always will, judge others by how they look. It doesn't matter whether it's grooming, dress, hair, skin color, or anything else, looks matter to most people, and they make snap judgements based on looks. It may not be right, but it is. Get used to it.