Campaign For Non-MS Option

[scottuss]

Hi everyone,

I'm writing this to raise awareness of a campaign that I'm starting in the UK regarding monopolistic practices of Microsoft.

Recently, I've been attempting to purchase a new laptop without Windows installed, or at least the option to get my money back for the Windows license.

Every major retailer / online store that I've had contact with state that they do not offer refunds for the Windows license, and indeed most of them have very limited or no option to purchase without a Windows license.

Please write to your MP and MEP(s) to raise awareness on this issue. I feel that the EU would be more interested in this, after their ruling regarding Web Browsers. I find it ridiculous that they want the browser to be a choice, but not the fundamental software that it runs on.

We need choice, some of us don't want Microsoft software, and we shouldn't be forced to use it.

If you would like more information about the campaign, or for a template letter that you can send to your representatives, please let me know!

Thanks!

Scott

[ronnielsen1]

http://www.linux.com/archive/feed/59381

You could try this

[scottuss]

http://www.linux.com/archive/feed/59381

You could try this

That's not really good enough though, I don't feel that people should have to risk buying the hardware and then be in a position where they don't know if they'll get the license fee back.

It shouldn't be something you have to attempt, it should be a real choice with a guaranteed outcome.

[speedwell68]

You could setup an e-petition on the 10 Downing Street website...

http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/

[Directive 4]

i agree with you,

i got my laptop from dell with ubuntu pre installed,

but as far as i know there the only one's doing it.

it would be nice to be able to choose a laptop from more than one company.

[madnessjack]

it's not people you want to be targeting, it's manufacturers

[Elfy]

Hi everyone,

I'm writing this to raise awareness of a campaign that I'm starting in the UK regarding monopolistic practices of Microsoft.

Recently, I've been attempting to purchase a new laptop without Windows installed, or at least the option to get my money back for the Windows license.

Every major retailer / online store that I've had contact with state that they do not offer refunds for the Windows license, and indeed most of them have very limited or no option to purchase without a Windows license.

Please write to your MP and MEP(s) to raise awareness on this issue. I feel that the EU would be more interested in this, after their ruling regarding Web Browsers. I find it ridiculous that they want the browser to be a choice, but not the fundamental software that it runs on.

We need choice, some of us don't want Microsoft software, and we shouldn't be forced to use it.

If you would like more information about the campaign, or for a template letter that you can send to your representatives, please let me know!

Thanks!

Scott

Then go to places that either stock laptops/pc's with the software that you want or get one without any OS. There are some in the UK, to my mind you are betting off with not using a major retailer anyway.

[Psumi]

Most websites/retailers that sell ubuntu-pre-installed laptops/desktops usually make them the same price or higher than their windows equivalents.

This includes anything you can search for in google.

Exas: ZaReason, System76.

[Directive 4]

my dell was ~£20 cheaper than if i had of got windows, so they still charge ~£40 to install free software but at least it's £20 cheaper than windows.

and buying without windows shows there is a market for the others, which is why i did it.

[scottuss]

my dell was ~£20 cheaper than if i had of got windows, so they still charge ~£40 to install free software but at least it's £20 cheaper than windows.

and buying without windows shows there is a market for the others, which is why i did it.

How did you get it without Windows?

[scottuss]

Then go to places that either stock laptops/pc's with the software that you want or get one without any OS. There are some in the UK, to my mind you are betting off with not using a major retailer anyway.

This isn't the point, the point is that EVERY retailer should legally be obliged to offer their systems without Windows, all of their systems, all of the time.

I don't want to have to pick from a sub-set of machines from a limited list of vendors.

(However: if you can suggest any good retailers that offer laptops without an OS, that would be useful to use as a starting point)

[scottuss]

it's not people you want to be targeting, it's manufacturers

I don't think so though, because manufacturers won't listen, they only listen to what is in demand, and therefore the issue needs raising in the public's mind so that there is more demand for choice.

Not only do they have to satisfy demand, but Microsoft has been known to threaten vendors with higher license fees / refusing to allow sale of Microsoft software if they offer anything else.

It's monopolistic, and anti-competitive and in my view, illegal.

[Directive 4]

How did you get it without Windows?


http://www1.euro.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/laptop-inspiron-10?c=uk&l=en&s=dhs&cs=ukdhs1&~oid=uk~en~20211~laptop-inspiron-10_n00b1001~~



http://www1.euro.dell.com/content/topics/segtopic.aspx/windows_or_ubuntu?c=uk&cs=ukdhs1&l=en&s=dhs



looks like they only do mini ones now, still with 8.04,

maybe the new buntu will make a difference

[Austin25]

I wish I never clicked that EULA...

[scottuss]

http://www1.euro.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/laptop-inspiron-10?c=uk&l=en&s=dhs&cs=ukdhs1&~oid=uk~en~20211~laptop-inspiron-10_n00b1001~~



http://www1.euro.dell.com/content/topics/segtopic.aspx/windows_or_ubuntu?c=uk&cs=ukdhs1&l=en&s=dhs



looks like they only do mini ones now, still with 8.04,

maybe the new buntu will make a difference

I doubt it very much. They pulled the other models with Ubuntu (most likely because of some pushing around by a certain software company?)

[scottuss]

I wish I never clicked that EULA...

To be honest, at the moment, it wouldn't make much difference as the EULA isn't respected by the manufacturers.

That's something I'm hoping to try and get people thinking about!

[cariboo]

This isn't the point, the point is that EVERY retailer should legally be obliged to offer their systems without Windows, all of their systems, all of the time.

I don't want to have to pick from a sub-set of machines from a limited list of vendors.

(However: if you can suggest any good retailers that offer laptops without an OS, that would be useful to use as a starting point)

What right does the government or whoever have to tell me what I can and cannot sell in my retail establishment?

[madnessjack]

I don't think so though, because manufacturers won't listen, they only listen to what is in demand, and therefore the issue needs raising in the public's mind so that there is more demand for choice.

Not only do they have to satisfy demand, but Microsoft has been known to threaten vendors with higher license fees / refusing to allow sale of Microsoft software if they offer anything else.

It's monopolistic, and anti-competitive and in my view, illegal.

Some manufacturers have sold Linux on their machines, but it hasn't taken off. The public aren't aware of the choice, but even if they were, would choose Microsoft because it is what they know and it is what has set the standard.

You need to convince consumers to want the product, it doesn't happen the other way round.



This isn't the point, the point is that EVERY retailer should legally be obliged to offer their systems without Windows, all of their systems, all of the time.

I don't want to have to pick from a sub-set of machines from a limited list of vendors.

(However: if you can suggest any good retailers that offer laptops without an OS, that would be useful to use as a starting point)

This is a selfish point you're making. There would be an uproar if machines didn't come with Windows. My Dad worked for Dixons (they own PC World in the UK), and for every cheap Ubuntu Laptop they sold they got one returned because the consumer didn't like the OS.

[Directive 4]

I doubt it very much. They pulled the other models with Ubuntu (most likely because of some pushing around by a certain software company?)


i heard some reports that the rate of return,s cost of support for the ubuntu machines was maybe x2 what the windows machine's where, maybe that's got something to do with it,


you know, people having problems getting online and so on...

[scottuss]

What right does the government or whoever have to tell me what I can and cannot sell in my retail establishment?

Are you actually being serious?

So you're suggesting that monopolies are a good thing?

[scottuss]

Some manufacturers have sold Linux on their machines, but it hasn't taken off. The public aren't aware of the choice, but even if they were, would choose Microsoft because it is what they know and it is what has set the standard.

You need to convince consumers to want the product, it doesn't happen the other way round.




This is a selfish point you're making. There would be an uproar if machines didn't come with Windows. My Dad worked for Dixons (they own PC World in the UK), and for every cheap Ubuntu Laptop they sold they got one returned because the consumer didn't like the OS.

I never said the machines should come without Windows. They should come with the CHOICE to not have Windows. Most people would choose to have Windows on the machine, that's fine. It's choice that matters.

When did any of the Dixons group stores sell laptops with any other OS than Windows?

[scottuss]

i heard some reports that the rate of return,s cost of support for the ubuntu machines was maybe x2 what the windows machine's where, maybe that's got something to do with it,


you know, people having problems getting online and so on...

But that's not the point. The people that would choose not to have Windows would be the people who are not going to have problems getting online etc. I'm not suggesting for one second that the stores sell without Windows, I'm saying that their should be the choice not to have Windows.

[scottuss]

Just a point guys: Please read what I said in the original post, and note that I'm not pushing for retailers to sell computers without an OS exclusively. I want choice, so that those of us who don't want Windows don't have to have it.

For most people, they would continue to buy a machine in the same way, with Windows pre-installed, and that's a good thing. Not everyone wants to have an alternative OS. But that doesn't mean we should be stopped from doing so (financially at least)

[NightwishFan]

I do not live in the UK, but my opinion on the matter is forcing the people to use Microsoft is wrong. However I will not appeal to the government. I will just continue to not purchase Microsoft software and spread the word about free software.

[scottuss]

I do not live in the UK, but my opinion on the matter is forcing the people to use Microsoft is wrong. However I will not appeal to the government. I will just continue to not purchase Microsoft software and spread the word about free software.

OK, but that's the point here. I'm not sure what the situation is where you are, but in the UK, purchasing new PC hardware without Windows is VERY VERY difficult.(Unless you buy the bits and build it yourself, which is not really practical for a laptop)

[speedwell68]

When did any of the Dixons group stores sell laptops with any other OS than Windows?

They have for ages. Apart from the obvious non-Microsoft choice of an Apple. They have been selling Linux based Netbooks for a while now, 18 months ago I bought an Acer A150 with Linspire Lite pre-installed from Currys, who are also part of the DSG group. Also my friend bought a Toshiba NB100 from Comet, it has Ubuntu 8.04 pre-installed.

[NightwishFan]

Who says it isn't? The only machine I could afford came with Windows7, which counts as a sale to them even though I removed it. Removing Windows also counts as a void on the warranty I am sure.

I agree with you, but I make my grudge against the biggest bully on the play ground a personal one. I will not involve a teacher. That is all I am saying. As I also said, this is just an opinion not advice. I do live in Europe so I could not say I know how things work there.

[scottuss]

They have for ages. Apart from the obvious non-Microsoft choice of an Apple. They have been selling Linux based Netbooks for a while now, 18 months ago I bought an Acer A150 with Linspire Lite pre-installed from Currys, who are also part of the DSG group. Also my friend bought a Toshiba NB100 from Comet, it has Ubuntu 8.04 pre-installed.

There are few devices left for sale now at any of the DSG outlets running Linux. Besides, netbooks or Apple products aren't always the answer. Some people want a laptop, not a netbook, and not a Mac.



P.S: Not sure if you were implying Comet was part of DSG, but it isn't :p

Oh, and I've already got a netbook :)

[scottuss]

Who says it isn't? The only machine I could afford came with Windows7, which counts as a sale to them even though I removed it. Removing Windows also counts as a void on the warranty I am sure.

I agree with you, but I make my grudge against the biggest bully on the play ground a personal one. I will not involve a teacher. That is all I am saying. As I also said, this is just an opinion not advice. I do live in Europe so I could not say I know how things work there.

Well all I'm saying is, there's been loads of press about the EU ruling over browser ballots and the only people that seem to think it is a bad thing seem to be the people not affected by it (outside the EU)

I don't have much faith in politics but I'm glad the EU are taking Microsoft up on things, whatever their reason for doing so. I do hope they take things further. If the teacher has to challenge the bullies, that's a good thing as far as I'm concerned.

[NightwishFan]

Perhaps you are right. If I never have to see "Windows 7" be recommended for me by a vendor again that would be great.

[madnessjack]

Well all I'm saying is, there's been loads of press about the EU ruling over browser ballots and the only people that seem to think it is a bad thing seem to be the people not affected by it (outside the EU)

I don't have much faith in politics but I'm glad the EU are taking Microsoft up on things, whatever their reason for doing so. I do hope they take things further. If the teacher has to challenge the bullies, that's a good thing as far as I'm concerned.

Well when you find a reasonable alternative for the average consumer, let them know yeah :P

[Directive 4]

You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inert, so hopelessly
dependant on the system, that they will fight to protect it.

[NightwishFan]

I have found that to be true in practice.

[Elfy]

OK, but that's the point here. I'm not sure what the situation is where you are, but in the UK, purchasing new PC hardware without Windows is VERY VERY difficult.(Unless you buy the bits and build it yourself, which is not really practical for a laptop)

I generally use novatech - all of their PCs and laptops are available OS free.

[scottuss]

I generally use novatech - all of their PCs and laptops are available OS free.

Just looking at their website, if I'm completely honest their stuff is a little over-priced for what it is.. or maybe I'm just expecting too much...

[caravel]

What right does the government or whoever have to tell me what I can and cannot sell in my retail establishment?
Every right actually. Try selling unlicenced firearms, class A narcotics and slaves and let me know how it goes?

In fact the OP is 100% right and justified in this. It is wrong to force a particular OS down people's throats. Yes there should be a windows version but there should also be a none preinstalled version for those that don't want it and want to install the OS of their choice. This is not just about Linux either. Supposing I already have a licenced retail box version of Windows <whatever> Professional/Premium, etc and I want to install that - this means that I don't want to pay money for the Windows 7 home basic that comes with the laptop.

Retailers and manufacturers need to provide this option in every case. Windows is maintaining it's monopoly with this practice. Interestingly enough a big fuss was made about MS' anti competitive practices re: the Win98 IE bundling case, but no one seems worried that they actually bundle the OS and make you pay for it.

This is why I have never and never will buy branded systems - I always build my own.

[scottuss]

Every right actually. Try selling unlicenced firearms, class A narcotics and slaves and let me know how it goes?

In fact the OP is 100% right and justified in this. It is wrong to force a particular OS down people's throats. Yes there should be a windows version but there should also be a none preinstalled version for those that don't want it and want to install the OS of their choice. This is not just about Linux either. Supposing I already have a licenced retail box version of Windows <whatever> Professional/Premium, etc and I want to install that - this means that I don't want to pay money for the Windows 7 home basic that comes with the laptop.

Retailers and manufacturers need to provide this option in every case. Windows is maintaining it's monopoly with this practice. Interestingly enough a big fuss was made about MS' anti competitive practices re: the Win98 IE bundling case, but no one seems worried that they actually bundle the OS and make you pay for it.

This is why I have never and never will buy branded systems - I always build my own.

This is a very good point. I just wanted to give a quick update for anyone that was actually following this thread: I've discovered that the entire laptop has to be returned "as is" to get the refund.

Summary:

You can refuse the EULA but then you refuse the hardware as well as the software. I have principles but I really don't want to have to give up the laptop. This is terrible practice, but MS will continue get away with it.

I feel somewhat defeated but I know at least that in taking it up with the manufacturer, I have at least tried.

[Daveski]

Interestingly enough a big fuss was made about MS' anti competitive practices re: the Win98 IE bundling case, but no one seems worried that they actually bundle the OS and make you pay for it.

+1

I'd get behind a campaign at least asking why the obvious disparity between OS and browser anti-competitiveness.

[Cam!]

I hate putting up with setting up Windows on new computers. I applaud Dell (to some extent) for allowing the option of putting Ubuntu on their laptops and netbooks. I wish more companies would follow that practice.

[Dustin2128]

in my mind, computers should be sold separately from operating systems. You buy the computer, then you just go to the software aisle and pick whichever OS you like, or go without one. The computers come one windows license cheaper, and people see some of the alternate OSes.

[Redo]

This isn't the point, the point is that EVERY retailer should legally be obliged to offer their systems without Windows, all of their systems, all of the time.


There's companies like System76 that offer Ubuntu machines directly. Both notebook and desktop. You could also start up your own business building and selling machines with linux options from scratch.

I guarantee a handful of the big box PC distributors have cost analyzed packaging linux OS's along side of Windows and decided it was easier for their pockets and their image to simply stick with Windows. If it wasn't working so hot for Dell, it wasn't such a great business choice for other big name companies either. Not to say it won't work in the future, but it hasn't been a real viable commercial option until the past year or two (hence Canonical working hard to make it a commercially viable option for prebuilts)

Netbooks commonly come in linux flavors. PC's are easy enough to build on your own, otherwise local PC shops and small time PC enthusiasts would be more than willing to sell you a linux PC if you can't do a PC build on your own.

Making it illegal for companies to not offer linux alternatives is draconian and counterproductive to the open source philosophy.

[Legendary_Bibo]

in my mind, computers should be sold separately from operating systems. You buy the computer, then you just go to the software aisle and pick whichever OS you like, or go without one. The computers come one windows license cheaper, and people see some of the alternate OSes.

That seems like a good idea, but I thought a computer can't turn doing any basic functions without an OS (I may not be thinking the correct way, you install an OS through the BIOS correct?). If what I just said sounds wrong ignore it. I do agree with you, why can't we have packaged Ubuntu discs on the shelves like Windows does or something?

[Dustin2128]

That seems like a good idea, but I thought a computer can't turn doing any basic functions without an OS (I may not be thinking the correct way, you install an OS through the BIOS correct?). If what I just said sounds wrong ignore it. I do agree with you, why can't we have packaged Ubuntu discs on the shelves like Windows does or something?
BIOS is independent of the OS and hard drive. If you have a computer with a blank hard drive, you can change your boot order to CD first and put in an OS install disc, no different than side by sides really. I'm guessing if they did ship computers with no OS, they'd strap a windows disc to the side and you could remove it, give it back, and get back whatever the current price of windows is.

[Legendary_Bibo]

BIOS is independent of the OS and hard drive. If you have a computer with a blank hard drive, you can change your boot order to CD first and put in an OS install disc, no different than side by sides really. I'm guessing if they did ship computers with no OS, they'd strap a windows disc to the side and you could remove it, give it back, and get back whatever the current price of windows is.

Oddly enough I should have known that after installing 5 different distros on my old dell. For some reason I always thought it was some form of DOS..durr. I'm dumb sometimes. :P

[rjbl]

Hi

Lots of hardware sellers in the UK will happily sell you a box without any OS installed. Try Novatech (Portsmouth + branches) + v. good online sales from their website. They sell complete boxes (with or without Windows) and all the bits to build yer own. Good to deal with. Used 'em for a new box and a DIY bunchabits. Affordable prices. HTTP://www.novatech.co.uk

ATB
rijbl

[rjbl]

There are few devices left for sale now at any of the DSG outlets running Linux. Besides, netbooks or Apple products aren't always the answer. Some people want a laptop, not a netbook, and not a Mac.



P.S: Not sure if you were implying Comet was part of DSG, but it isn't :p

Oh, and I've already got a netbook :)

Garn ..... over the years I've bought many PCs from DSG - all with windows pre-installed, which I've always stripped off the moment I got home; often replacing with whichever linux I have been using at the time. Never been a problem. Anyways, who buys kit in PCWorld - I mean, 'The Tech Guys'????? :P:P:P:P

Seriously, you could always try a complaint to the Monopolies and Mergers Commission. Might make you feel better but not likely to pull Micro$oft's tail.

ATB
rjbl

[alexan]

I do strongly support this.
The problem is "logical".

If I do assemble my rig without any windows.. all the hardware I buy had software driver (developed by the hardware manufacturer) for windows.
This result that part of my money end indirectly in Microsoft's pocket. (pay for the hardware = pay hardware *and* software engineer who work on that hardware = software engineer develop/fix/update driver for windows... my money got wasted).

This is about switch back the choice to the clients, currently a new PC is mostly sold with windows: you (as general public) are forced to pay a windows license.

Our money are what votes decide in democracy: who's gonna lead.

When you have 98% of votes gutter in a single party you hadn't democracy.. you have PRC's party.


The OS in new PC must be a choice... so farewell to Microsoft *AND* Apple.


- DO you (as OS developer) want to make a "FREE" os? then free to everyone.
- Pay for the OS? ask to me if I want to buy it.



PS: I already know that "some" sell PC with linux or without OS. I don't care what "some" do. I care to have my choice back.

[Grenage]

It's not the government's place to tell people what they can sell. That said, they don't really have the right to tell pub owners that people can't smoke legal tobacco in their establishments - but they still do.

If you don't want a Windows computer, don't buy one with windows on it. There are other options, albeit they might cost more. It's supply and demand; there's no demand.

[alexan]

It's not the government's place to tell people what they can sell. That said, they don't really have the right to tell pub owners that people can't smoke legal tobacco in their establishments - but they still do.

If you don't want a Windows computer, don't buy one with windows on it. There are other options, albeit they might cost more. It's supply and demand; there's no demand.

Democracy is about ask what people want the government do, if people don't want that some crazy guy wander around kicking people around, they (the people) ask government to knock these crazy guy in jail.
It's no matter if you like to get kicked: you can invite that crazy guy in house and kick you as much you want.

Just because there's a "long tradition" of it, it doesn't mean that everyone must forced about it.

Correct: If YOU want windows, YOU MAY ASK for it.
Uncorrect (actual): if you DO NOT WANT widows, YOU MAY EVENTUALLY ASK YOUR MONEY BACK*



*don't click agree, don't turn on your pc at all, call center, insist on call center, send the whole package back to the factory, shipment at your expenses

[RiceMonster]

The manufacturer makes the product. They get to decide what OS they put on it and what they will support. End of story.

[mebomechanicno1]

Hi

Lots of hardware sellers in the UK will happily sell you a box without any OS installed. Try Novatech (Portsmouth + branches) + v. good online sales from their website. They sell complete boxes (with or without Windows) and all the bits to build yer own. Good to deal with. Used 'em for a new box and a DIY bunchabits. Affordable prices. HTTP://www.novatech.co.uk

ATB
rijbl

Is it not the case that a year or so back it was possible buy a small notebook laptop ('netbook') running linux? It seems to me that although these so called netbooks remain popular in England, they can now only be got running windows.

[scottuss]

The manufacturer makes the product. They get to decide what OS they put on it and what they will support. End of story.

At what point did you think that was in question? We know the manufacturers make the product, we know they decide what OS goes on and whether they will support it. We're simply asking for them to decide on having other options.

[scottuss]

It's not the government's place to tell people what they can sell. That said, they don't really have the right to tell pub owners that people can't smoke legal tobacco in their establishments - but they still do.

If you don't want a Windows computer, don't buy one with windows on it. There are other options, albeit they might cost more. It's supply and demand; there's no demand.

This point has been countered before. How is it not the Government's place to tell people what they can sell?

Got a local gun shop near you? Perhaps a cocaine store? Surely you must have some labour camps where you can purchase a run down ol' slave or two? :p My point being: whether morally correct or not, we are told what we can and cannot buy, and if we must have these restrictions, we may as well have less controversial ones such as what software we get bundled with new kit....

[kamaboko]

In the grand scheme of life, I can think of more noteworthy causes to push for change. For instance, AIDS research; world hunger; children who are victims of sex slave trade; preventing the destruction of rain forests, etc. Buy a Dell, System 76, or do what thousands of other user's have done, including me, buy the laptop and install Linux yourself. Moreover, the manufacturers decide what goes in their laptops, not Microsoft. If the PC manufactures believe it makes more financial sense to have a greater variety of products with Linux installed, they'll do it. Since you don't see it at the level you'd like, the writing is on the wall: it doesn't make good financial sense.

[Simian Man]

At what point did you think that was in question? We know the manufacturers make the product, we know they decide what OS goes on and whether they will support it. We're simply asking for them to decide on having other options.


This point has been countered before. How is it not the Government's place to tell people what they can sell?

Got a local gun shop near you? Perhaps a cocaine store? Surely you must have some labour camps where you can purchase a run down ol' slave or two? :p My point being: whether morally correct or not, we are told what we can and cannot buy, and if we must have these restrictions, we may as well have less controversial ones such as what software we get bundled with new kit....

I started writing out a response to this...but this is just too retarded. I mean come on, are you serious?

[blueturtl]

This point has been countered before. How is it not the Government's place to tell people what they can sell?

Got a local gun shop near you? Perhaps a cocaine store? Surely you must have some labour camps where you can purchase a run down ol' slave or two? :p My point being: whether morally correct or not, we are told what we can and cannot buy, and if we must have these restrictions, we may as well have less controversial ones such as what software we get bundled with new kit....

A better campaign than harassing our already too-busy-destroying-the-world leadership would be to vote with your wallet. When enough many people do that someone at the Acer head offices wearing a tie will go: "Why are our sales down"? Another guy in a tie goes: "It's that other firm. They sell systems that are perceived to be better than ours. People are willing to shell up extra to get this thing called Leeenucks" "Damn, we better roll out a couple of models too, but we gotta beat them in price." "Yeah.. that sounds great. Economies of scale are on our side, plus there is no cost for licensing Leenucks. Only the usual development and testing costs." "Let's go high five the guys in marketing!"

Or we can bother the leadership who has no clue whatsoever about what technology is and what it's good for. They'll make a great big mess of it all and soon we'll all be booting FreeDOS. ;)

[del_diablo]

Moreover, the manufacturers decide what goes in their laptops, not Microsoft. If the PC manufactures believe it makes more financial sense to have a greater variety of products with Linux installed, they'll do it. Since you don't see it at the level you'd like, the writing is on the wall: it doesn't make good financial sense.

You know as well as I that the world does not work like that, it only works partially like that.
Windows got a selfsupporting monopol, so manifacturers ship windows because of said Monopol.
You never hear about a manifacturer execept Apple using "the non-standard OS", really.................

[RiceMonster]

You know as well as I that the world does not work like that, it only works partially like that.
Windows got a selfsupporting monopol, so manifacturers ship windows because of said Monopol.
You never hear about a manifacturer execept Apple using "the non-standard OS", really.................

That's basically the same thing kamaboko said, expect replacing terms like "financial sense" with "monopol" (by the way, the correct word is monopoly). People really love to throw around that word.

So yes, there is no demand, so they do not ship Linux, or some kind of custom OS (which would be even worse of an idea).

[alexan]

The manufacturer makes the product. They get to decide what OS they put on it and what they will support. End of story.

Feel free to "do not think about it" as much you wish, then. ;)



In the grand scheme of life, I can think of more noteworthy causes to push for change. For instance, AIDS research; world hunger; children who are victims of sex slave trade; preventing the destruction of rain forests, etc.
You can think to this stuff also when you're not going to buy a laptop, you know?



Buy a Dell, System 76, or do what thousands of other user's have done, including me, buy the laptop and install Linux yourself. Moreover, the manufacturers decide what goes in their laptops, not Microsoft.
Repeat to yourself the last statement, more slowly in order to catch the nuances of what you are imply


If the PC manufactures believe it makes more financial sense to have a greater variety of products with Linux installed, they'll do it. Since you don't see it at the level you'd like, the writing is on the wall: it doesn't make good financial sense.

The manufacturer put a windows license in what you are buying, and (if you haven't steal it) you pay it.
This is about allow you directly to refuse an hidden price.

[kamaboko]

You know as well as I that the world does not work like that, it only works partially like that.
Windows got a selfsupporting monopol, so manifacturers ship windows because of said Monopol.
You never hear about a manifacturer execept Apple using "the non-standard OS", really.................

Yes, the world does work like that. If PC mfg saw that there was greater money to be made selling Linux systems, that's exactly what they would be doing. Linux for the home and general office (excluding servers) is still a fringe solution and doesn't blip on the radar. Call Dell and tell them you need 2.5M computers with Linux on them, guess what...you'll see Linux splashed all over their homepage in a heartbeat.

[kamaboko]

The manufacturer put a windows license in what you are buying, and (if you haven't steal it) you pay it.
This is about allow you directly to refuse an hidden price.

I ordered a Dell Vostro, sent my MS product key sticker back to Dell and they refunded me the money of the OS. It's clearly stated in one of their ownership manuals they ship with their computers. I just read it back to the support specialist and I got my money.

[Yes]

Private corporations can do what they want with their products. If that means they want to sell computers with only Windows preinstalled, why do you think they shouldn't be allowed to do that? If you don't want to pay extra for Windows see if you can get a refund, or take your business elsewhere.

[alexan]

I ordered a Dell Vostro, sent my MS product key sticker back to Dell and they refunded me the money of the OS. It's clearly stated in one of their ownership manuals they ship with their computers. I just read it back to the support specialist and I got my money.

If you buy a car, you can choose before put your money out to have only, and exactly, everything you want.
If you don't want the auto radio, you hadn't to pay the auto radio then resend it back to have your money.

You don't need to assemble your own car, make it deliver from another state or something like that.
You want a car without it... and you nearly always find someone which sell you the car you need. Why not with PC?

Just because you're used to someone which kick your @ss don't mean that everyone deserve it.


Private corporations can do what they want with their products.
Becouse when you put out your money out of your wallet... also your money become their.
Then the product is no longer of private corporations's own ship.. it's yours.
You (as client) are urged to choose previously how spend your money. And.. even if you wish... you, can't, choose, linux.


I am the only to see something isn't quite right in this? :-$

[Johnsie]

No car company would sell you a car that doesn't have the features you need to use/drive it. In order to use a computer properly the average user needs a user-friendly OS that they know how to use. Linux does not suit that requirement because the average user doesn't know how to use Linux.

[Yes]

Becouse when you put out your money out of your wallet... also your money become their.
Then the product is no longer of private corporations's own ship.. it's yours.
You (as client) are urged to choose previously how spend your money. And.. even if you wish... you, can't, choose, linux.


I am the only to see something isn't quite right in this? :-$

Yeah tbh you're really sounding ridiculous.

It's quite simple. If you don't like what a company offers, don't shop at that company.

[alexan]

No car company would sell you a car that doesn't have the features you need to use/drive it. In order to use a computer properly the average user needs a user-friendly OS that they know how to use.

you know, you had to buy windows to know windows... and you had to experience specifically that windows.
There's no such things like "be naturally talented in windows"



Linux does not suit that requirement because the average user doesn't know how to use Linux.
Before you buy your cellphone, you haven't any experience with your cellphone.

Under your logic: no one would buy iPhone if don't know how use iPhone OS.


Yeah tbh you're really sounding ridiculous.

It's quite simple. If you don't like what a company offers, don't shop at that company.

Ok, let me try another store


Yeah tbh you're really sounding ridiculous.

It's quite simple. If you don't like what a company offers, don't shop at that company.

oook... let me try another store


Yeah tbh you're really sounding ridiculous.

It's quite simple. If you don't like what a company offers, don't shop at that company.


ooooooook... well.. then I'll tr

Yeah tbh you're really sounding ridiculous.

It's quite simple. If you don't like what a company offers, don't shop at that company.

get my drift ;)

[Yes]

And your solution is to have the government force companies like Sony to sell laptops with Linux? Should they also be forced to offer laptops with *BSD?

Governments shouldn't dictate company decisions like what OS is to be installed. Perhaps companies should be forced to allow refunds for the amount they paid for the liscense if you return your Windows key. I could agree with that.

[alexan]

The subject of this thread is that governments should spend our money (aka: tax) more wisely; and pay software license (yet again for every new version/update of it) when the same software come for free is not wise.


More extended to the market (OT); government should force companies to put the price on what they are make paying to their clients. Allowing people to not pay for third party stuff: Windows isn't, obviously, for free.

[samstreet101]

I think a lot of people are missing the point of this argument (or at least what I think Scott is trying to get at). I don't think anyone should be forced to sell a laptop with Linux, but they as consumers should be given the choice to buy a laptop without Windows. If you're buying a laptop and you're a Linux user, chances are you can install and are happy using Linux so the 'can't sell it without it being able to run out of the box' argument shouldn't affect this.

Companies and more importantly manufactuers should sell laptops with the option of having no OS installed and hence no windows license fee to pay.

Microsoft have been known to bully manufactuers to include windows with their computers in order to maintain business relationships with them. They've been doing it for years, since the beginings of MS-DOS days. They also did it during the early browser wars, they were known to tell companies that if they included netscape with their computers, they would not license windows to them.