Which GUI is more MS Friendly?

[Avicus]

I'm absolutely in preference to the whole Gnome interface for doing things... but am aware of KDE and have tried it and can't quite get into it. I'm really wondering why Konqueror was chosen as the best File Manager in the 2005 LinuxQuestions.org Members Choice Awards (http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/showthread.php?t=422222). The only reason I can think is that Konq may be better at using alternative protocols like smb? I am trying it out today but if anyone has any insight... I'd love to hear!

And also, what is your preference for a linux client in a windows networked environment?

[ComplexNumber]

I'm really wondering why Konqueror was chosen as the best File Manager in the 2005 LinuxQuestions.org Members Choice Awards
for the same reason that vi was voted best editor ;).

[Lord Illidan]

I like Konqueror, very user friendly, and feature laden. Also, it is faster than Nautilus.
There was a review in LXF a few releases ago, will try and quote it here..

[aysiu]

Most of the popular Linux distros use KDE as the default desktop environment, so users who like "user-friendliness" usually end up using Konqueror instead of Nautilus.

Mepis
SuSE
Mandriva
PCLinuxOS
Linspire
Xandros
...

[ComplexNumber]

Most of the popular Linux distros use KDE as the default desktop environment, so users who like "user-friendliness" usually end up using Konqueror instead of Nautilus.

Mepis
SuSE
Mandriva
PCLinuxOS
Linspire
Xandros
...
slight correction...

Mepis
Mandriva
PCLinuxOS
Linspire
Xandros


the top linux distros tend much more than not to use gnome as default...

fedora / redhat
suse (since recently)
ubuntu

[aysiu]

Thanks for the correction.

When you say "top," I assume you're talking about DistroWatch. I don't consider that an accurate measure of what's "top," especially when it comes to what's "user-friendly" or "MS-friendly."

The most point-and-click distros I've seen are PCLinuxOS, Linspire, Mepis, and Xandros.

[ComplexNumber]

When you say "top," I assume you're talking about DistroWatch. I don't consider that an accurate measure of what's "top," especially when it comes to what's "user-friendly" or "MS-friendly." not really. just what is considered to be most popular and are backed by companies with the most resources (eg ununtu, novell, red hat, etc). many of the distros in the KDE list i would consider fly-by-night distros.

[aysiu]

And those "fly by night" distros are often what are touted as "user-friendly" because they involve the most point-and-click for things and have the most GUI for things.

Linspire and Xandros are hardly "fly by night," though.

[ComplexNumber]

And those "fly by night" distros are often what are touted as "user-friendly" because they involve the most point-and-click for things and have the most GUI for things.

Linspire and Xandros are hardly "fly by night," though.perhaps i should have added "relatively speaking".

[super]

i'm a gnome user also but i don't like nautilus too much either. considering the size of it's memory footprint, i expect a lot more.
it has:

- no web browsing
- no tabs
- the previews are bigger than the icons (this drives me nuts!)
- doesn't support recursive file/folder permission changes (at least, i don't know how)

so instead i fire up thunar along with a few terminals, and all is good!

[ComplexNumber]

i'm a gnome user also but i don't like nautilus too much either. considering the size of it's memory footprint, i expect a lot more.
it has:

- no web browsing
- no tabs
- the previews are bigger than the icons (this drives me nuts!)
- doesn't support recursive file/folder permission changes (at least, i don't know how)

so instead i fire up thunar along with a few terminals, and all is good! please bear in mind that its a file manager...not a web browser. leave the browsing for the web browsers.
as for the tabs, have you heard of bookmarks? tabs aren't overly necessary for a file manager like they are in the terminal (for example) for this reason.
if you find the previews bigger than the items, then maybe you need to pay 'preferences' section a visit.
as for the recursive file/folder permissions, it does now since 2.14

[Bandit]

slight correction...

Mepis
Mandriva
PCLinuxOS
Linspire
Xandros


the top linux distros tend much more than not to use gnome as default...

fedora / redhat
suse (since recently)
ubuntu

Another Slight correction.
SuSE Will keep KDE as its default DE.
Novell Desktop will use Gnome.

;)
Cheers,
Joey

[ComplexNumber]

Another Slight correction.
SuSE Will keep KDE as its default DE.[.......]
Novell Desktop will use Gnome.

;)
Cheers,
Joey .....on paper ;)

[ComplexNumber]

Konqueror can do a bazillion things nautilus can't, so can KDE as a WM emacs and vi can do a zillion things that gedit and kate can't do too. that doesn't make them better at what they're intended for.
i have often found than less is sometimes more when it comes to productivity...its just a case of getting the balance right.
anyways, from my experience, nautilus does what its intended to do a lot better and more reliably than konqueror. good design is worth more than aimlessly throwing features at an application as is the case with konqueror.

[aysiu]

i have often found than less is sometimes more when it comes to productivity...its just a case of getting the balance right.
anyways, from my experience, nautilus does what its intended to do a lot better and more reliably than konqueror. good design is worth more than aimlessly throwing features at an application as is the case with konqueror.

Recursive permission changes and tabbed browsing don't seem like extraneous features.

Integrated web browsing probably is, though.

[ComplexNumber]

Yeah, but what are you going to do when you need to do things that gedit or kate can't do? like what? give me some examples of what a typical editor should do that they can't....and that the typical user can't live without.



you use what you have to for most things but for some things you'll have to switch program. if you're referring to konqueror, then the user has to anyway. kparts is read only. i can be far more productive in gnome by using nautilus and the associated applications because i'm going to fire them up anyway. note that you can't change the contents of any file using konqeror because, like i say, kparts is read only, so the associated applications have to be fired up anyway if you want to amend files.




Recursive permission changes and tabbed browsing don't seem like extraneous features. the former is in gnome now, but the latter is irrelevent for a file manager IMO

[Bandit]

.....on paper ;)

I almost didnt find this. :)
Here is the word from Eric Anderson:
http://www.suseforums.net/index.php?showtopic=18022


Now IMHO to keep this on topic.
Gnome IMHO is a more professional desktop. But KDE kinda has a Windows look to it. (nobody shoot me..)
Which is why many choose KDE. Not to mention KDE is easier to compile.
The layout of KDE does appeal somewhat to more previous windows users. (from what I have been told.)
Doesnt mean KDE is better, IMHO Gnome is better.
Most businesses choose Gnome over its professional look then KDE.
Which is why you find Novell using it as the default on the Novell Desktop and RedHat also using it as the default DE.
Cheers,
Joey

[ComplexNumber]

I almost didnt find this. :)
Here is the word from Eric Anderson:
http://www.suseforums.net/index.php?showtopic=18022



Joey hehe exactly...on paper. if one thinks about it, they had no option other than to appease the KDE crowd by making a statement. its a bit like politicians when they say "no new taxes". actions speak louder than words, and their actions say "gnome is now the default desktop [because it benefits us in the long run now that we're moving into the same territory as red hat in the enterprise. on the other hand, we have to make a formal statement so that we don't p-off the KDE crowd too much and end up rocking the boat because it could end up hurting us a lot]".


back on topic, i would say that KDE is more MS friendly.

[GTX]

I am faily new to ubuntu desktop, I have been using linux servers for years and consider myself fairly good at linux itself.

I installed the default ubuntu which contains gnome and found it great, Then I heard people talking about kubuntu-desktop. so I decided to install that as well.

After 10 minutes of using kubuntu-desktop I had to uninstall it! The look was making me throw up (Just my opion) I tried to uninstall kubuntu-desktop and all the crap packages which come with it, but I couldnt remove every package. Now I look back at it I know there was proberly a way to remove it all automaticlay but I ended up formatting.

Gnome FTW

[Jucato]

(I can't understand where the discussion is going, nor can I understand how the title of the thread and the first post is connected.)

(This post will obviously show that I'm Konqueror fan. Mind you, I've only tried Ubuntu/GNOME on Live CD for a few hours)
- Recursive permission changes are a bit buggy in Konqueror (AFAIK)
- "Tabbed browsing not necessary for file management", just as Tabbed browsing is not necessary for web browsers. It's not a necessity, but extremely convenient.
- Can you please show me a feature of Konqueror that has been "mindlessly thrown in"?
- IMHO (emphasis on humble...) there is nothing wrong with a file manager being a web browser, once you consider that a web page is just a file. Isn't it Linux's "philosophy" that everything is a "file" (drivers, media, storage devices)? At least that's what I've read. In fact, this is what KDE does through it's kioslaves. It lets KDE apps access different protocols as files. And this is not only true for Konqueror, but for all other KDE apps. I'm sure it looks a bit like Internet Explorer. But I believe that it is not, beneath the hood. I might be wrong. I haven't done any programming on either MS or KDE.

Well anyway, I think that KDE "might" be an MS-friendly DE, because some of its features are found where you would find them in Windows. That and the default KDE panel layout resembles Windows too much. (And is the first one I change after a new KDE install).

I have 2 questions about Nautilus that's been hanging in my head for a few days:
1. Why is nautilus loaded during GNOME startup? ("Loading Nautilus" in the splash screen)
2. Do you really have to press Ctrl+L for a location bar to appear (one where you can type in exact locations), or is there some way I can make it sit there by default?

[ComplexNumber]

- Can you please show me a feature of Konqueror that has been "mindlessly thrown in"? everything thats not necessary for file management. its too cluttered, both interface-wise and functionality-wise. the reason why i can't stand using konqueror is the same as the reason why i can't stand vi or emacs. also, nautilis is more effective(for me) and reliable as a file manager. konqueror has habit of being temperemental for some reason. i don't need or want all that functionality, so every single feature added becomes a cumulative negative rather than a positive. i just want a file manager to be a file manager. in the same way as i want an editor to be an editor and not try to do everything including brushing my teeth for me in the morning.




Isn't it Linux's "philosophy" that everything is a "file" that was unix.



1. Why is nautilus loaded during GNOME startup? ("Loading Nautilus" in the splash screen) one of the reasons is that it draws the desktop



2. Do you really have to press Ctrl+L for a location bar to appear (one where you can type in exact locations), or is there some way I can make it sit there by default? which version. i have the location bar by default on mine.

[Adrian]

everything thats not necessary for file management. its also too cluttered. the reason why i can't stand using konqueror is the same as the reason why i can't stand vi or emacs. also, nautilis is more effective(for me) and reliable as a file manager. konqueror has habit of being temperemental for some reason. i don't need or want all that functionality, so it becomes a negative rather than a positive. i just want a file manager to be a file manager. in the same way as i want an editor to be an editor and not try to do everything including brushing my teeth for me in the morning.


that was unix.


one of the reasons is that it draws the desktop

which version. i have the location bar by default on mine.

I can't really see how you can complain about too much functionality. Usually there is no need to enter the menus anyway. Drag and drop + the usual keyboard shortcuts work fine. I find all features that you are offered when right-clicking on a file useful and I don't want to be without them.

For me, Konqueror has been much more reliable. For instance when it comes to browsing BIG FTP-archives. I don't know, maybe I'm doing something wrong, but when I want to browse this dir (for example) in Nautilus:

ftp://ftp.modland.com/pub/modules/protracker/sll

my computer hangs (I guess the reason for that is the MASSIVE parent dir). I've tried it in both Ubuntu and Debian. Konqueror lists it in a couple of seconds.

[Jucato]

everything thats not necessary for file management. its also too cluttered. the reason why i can't stand using konqueror is the same as the reason why i can't stand vi or emacs. also, nautilis is more effective(for me) and reliable as a file manager. konqueror has habit of being temperemental for some reason. i don't need or want all that functionality, so it becomes a negative rather than a positive. i just want a file manager to be a file manager. in the same way as i want an editor to be an editor and not try to do everything including brushing my teeth for me in the morning.
Well, if you consider that Konqueror is a file browser/manager and that web pages are files, then it's only doing what it's supposed to do. It just so happened that it means doing everything (except brush your teeth of course :D)
One thing I like about Konqueror is that it won't actually force you use it in a particular way. There is Konqueror profile for File Management. And you can customize it in so many ways that you won't have to see it as a web browser, including turning off tabbed browsing. :D


that was unix.
I thought that was carried over to Linux?
http://www.linux.ie/articles/onthenatureoflinux.php


one of the reasons is that it draws the desktop
huh? I'm confused here (no sarcasm, really confused). Why should a file manager (it is the file manager right?) be drawing the desktop? I mean, I can understand if a file manager shouldn't act as a web browser. But drawing the desktop?

[QUTOE]which version. i have the location bar by default on mine.[/QUOTE]
The one on the live CD. I don't even know what version it is :( I'm not a GNOME hater. It's just that I only recently explored it's world and I feel a bit lost. By the way, the defualt did have a Location "tool" bar, but not the address bar (I should have said address bar in the first place... sorry :D). I have to press Ctrl+L to make it visible.

[ComplexNumber]

Well, if you consider that Konqueror is a file browser/manager and that web pages are files, then it's only doing what it's supposed to do. It just so happened that it means doing everything (except brush your teeth of course :D)
One thing I like about Konqueror is that it won't actually force you use it in a particular way. There is Konqueror profile for File Management. And you can customize it in so many ways that you won't have to see it as a web browser, including turning off tabbed browsing. :D


I thought that was carried over to Linux?
http://www.linux.ie/articles/onthenatureoflinux.php


huh? I'm confused here (no sarcasm, really confused). Why should a file manager (it is the file manager right?) be drawing the desktop? I mean, I can understand if a file manager shouldn't act as a web browser. But drawing the desktop?


which version. i have the location bar by default on mine. The one on the live CD. I don't even know what version it is :( I'm not a GNOME hater. It's just that I only recently explored it's world and I feel a bit lost. By the way, the defualt did have a Location "tool" bar, but not the address bar (I should have said address bar in the first place... sorry :D). I have to press Ctrl+L to make it visible.
i just think that konqueror overdoes it in the same way that emacs does. they're great pieces of software, but they are not the most usable pieces of software IMO. to some people, they're brilliant. to others, they have the effect of making them run out of the room screaming.

re: drawing the desktop - you can configure it to either draw the desktop or not. if it doesn't, your icons don't appear and you can't right click.

i think they've got rid of the address bar by default, but you can make it show again by either going into preferences or 'go' part of the menu. can't remember which.

[Jucato]

re: drawing the desktop - you can configure it to either draw the desktop or not. if it doesn't, your icons don't appear and you can't right click.
So in short, I have the option of Nautilus drawing my desktop or not. But if I don't, I lose some desktop functionality? So Nautilus is deeply integrated into the system, so much more than Konqueror is? Now that's a revelation for me. Now I understand why someone commented that crashing Nautilus took down his desktop. I thought he was just bashing GNOME.

But isn't this also an example of a file manager doing something more than it should, something that is not even related to files? I do admit that Konqueror has many options than you would care to have. I guess this is a fundamental difference between GNOME and KDE. GNOME tends to give you the bare bones and let's you add some things you like, while KDE gives you everything and let's you take away what you don't like.


i think they've got rid of the address bar by default, but you can make it show again by either going into preferences or 'go' part of the menu. can't remember which.
The Go menu does have an option for the address bar, with the keyboard shortcut of Ctrl+L. But I have to do that everytime I want to type a specific location. Anyway I'll check the preferences option later. Maybe it's there. :D
But why would they take it away by default? I guess I'm the only one having issues here because I came from KDE, and was using XP before that. Guess I might be crazy :p

[mrgnash]

I'm with Fenyx on this one... I found Nautlius to be clunky, ugly and under-featured.. but I suppose the fact that I couldn't get it to work with Samba is what really broke it for me.

Konqueoror on the other hand, is a dream. It's rather nice to be able to open three tabs: one containing the files in my web-design folder, another one previewing the page I'm working on, and another one for uploading the files via FTP :) The configuration shortcuts - settings:/ remote:/ etc. - are ridiculously convenient. And it looks pretty to boot.

Plus the fact that it doesn't try to load in the desktop for KDE, like Nautlius does with Gnome, on Fluxbox is also an awesome feature (yes, I'm aware that there is a command line option to prevent Nautilus from doing this, but I only found out about that after some very nasty corruption of my XFCE session when I opened Nautilus.)

Anyways, I don't think 'MS Friendly' (an oxymoron if ever there was one) is really something to strive for. But Konqueror is about as friendly as a GUI can be imo... and that's coming from a Fluxbox user, who likes things to be stripped way down.

PS: I also agree that Konqueror is more true to the Linux/Unix 'everything is a file' approach.

[ComplexNumber]

So in short, I have the option of Nautilus drawing my desktop or not. But if I don't, I lose some desktop functionality? yeah, something like that. i'm not the most qualified to answer that qustions, so perhaps someone else can answer it more precisely than me.



Now I understand why someone commented that crashing Nautilus took down his desktop. I thought he was just bashing GNOME. its true. integration is a bad thing IMO. nautilus and evolution(ie bloated monster that i refuse to use) are the only ones in gnome that do use integration to any great extent, whereas most KDE apps do. thats why KDE apps and evo and nautilus, when they crash, can take the whole system down. thats another reason why i don't like kde.
its not an example of the file manager doing something more than it should. its an example of doing something in the wrong way IMO.

[Jucato]

its true. integration is a bad thing IMO. nautilus and evolution are the only ones in gnome that do use integration to any great extent, whereas most KDE apps do. thats why KDE apps and evo and nautilus, when they crash, can take the whole system down. thats another reason why i don't like kde.
Forgive me, but I have to disagree on this one.
I've had KDE apps crash on me lots of times, but it hasn't ever taken down the whole desktop with it, and nothing I cannot stop with a kill command in a virtual terminal. I'm not sure about technical stuff, but I think KDE's integration is different from the usual concept of desktop integration. Konqueror is not directly connected to the desktop, or to any app for that matter. And this is true for all KDE apps. The integration of KDE, I believe, comes from a different level: from kioslaves, KParts, and DCOP, to name a few. For example, when I use Konqueror to preview a PDF or text file inside it, it doesn't directly call KPDF or Kate/KWrite to do it. Rather, it calls the appropriate KPart do so. If ever Konqueror or the KPart crashes, it only takes down Konqueror with it. I'm beginning to think that GNOME and KDE also defines/implements integration differently. But I'm no expert.


its not an example of the file manager doing something more than it should. its an example of doing something in the wrong way IMO.
May I ask why it is completely natural for a file manager to be responsible for "drawing" (they should actually get a better term for this) the desktop?

PS. I'm not bashing you or GNOME. If my comments seem aggressive, it is not my intention. I'm trying to expand my horizons, specially by trying out GNOME (I will be installing Ubuntu tomorrow, actually). So please, I mean no offense to GNOME users.

Back to the topic of an "MS friendly" GUI: I may be alone on this, but I think GNOME should not be the first DE you try if you're just coming from Windows UNLESS you are absolutely sure and ready to re-wire your old customs and behavior. I find that Ubuntu's default desktop layout is quite closer to Mac OS (the main panel at the top). Also, casual PC ex-Windows users might be confused on where some preferences/settings are located.
I also noticed that most distros recommended for migrating PC users (especially those with little technical/computer knowledge) are KDE-based. (I don't know if this is actually a good thing for KDE or makes KDE look more like a XP clone. :( )
Of course, there will be people out there who tried GNOME first (after XP) and were quite comfortable with it at once.

[aysiu]

Is there really a need to argue about this?

Some people like a lack of features--they call this simplicity.
Some people like an abundance of features--they call this functionality.

There is always a balance between simplicity and added functionality, and some will prefer an application that leans towards the simpler side; others will prefer an application that adds more functionality.

To each her own.

Okay. You can resume arguing. I can assure you no one will be convinced by "the other side."

[super]

please bear in mind that its a file manager...not a web browser. leave the browsing for the web browsers.
are they really that different? web browsers can browse files as well. why shouldn't it work vice-versa.

as for the tabs, have you heard of bookmarks?
they don't work nearly as well. two clicks instead of one (or a keyboard shortcut). failing tabs nautilus should probably have a two pane view which it doesn't have either.

if you find the previews bigger than the items, then maybe you need to pay 'preferences' section a visit.
not the same thing. i don't need smaller icons. i want the preview icons to be the same size as the file icons. like this:
http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/6725/200603140109271024x768scrot3hr.th.png (http://img101.imageshack.us/my.php?image=200603140109271024x768scrot3hr.png)
then again i'm probably just being picky. ;)

as for the recursive file/folder permissions, it does now since 2.14
hey! now that's good news! finally. :p

May I ask why it is completely natural for a file manager to be responsible for "drawing" (they should actually get a better term for this) the desktop?
because your desktop is really just another folder on your system that you are browsing. your desktop in gnome is just a huge nautilus window displaying '$HOME/Desktop' with a pretty picture behind it. there are other ways to do this (eg: fbsetbg for wallpaper and idesk for icons) but the nautilus way is the easiest.

btw don't get me wrong, i prefer gnome to kde. i just think nautilus as a file-manager is not a good as konquerer.

[mstlyevil]

Is there really a need to argue about this?

Some people like a lack of features--they call this simplicity.
Some people like an abundance of features--they call this functionality.

There is always a balance between simplicity and added functionality, and some will prefer an application that leans towards the simpler side; others will prefer an application that adds more functionality.

To each her own.

Okay. You can resume arguing. I can assure you no one will be convinced by "the other side."

Ditto.

[Jucato]

Ok... this is really getting into an argument that I don't intend/want to.
Actually, I'm not arguing. :D
I'm just trying to actually understand these concepts in GNOME.
1. What does "desktop integration" mean? (for both KDE and GNOME)
2. Why is Nautilus, a file manager, responsible for drawing the desktop?

I have actually a great respect for GNOME and GTK+ specially because they have become a great desktop without the financial/development support of a corporation/company (unlike KDE/QT and Trolltech).

[Adrian]

I have actually a great respect for GNOME and GTK+ specially because they have become a great desktop without the financial/development support of a corporation/company (unlike KDE/QT and Trolltech).

Haven't Red Hat and Sun put a lot of money into GNOME?

...and does Trolltech really pay for any KDE development? I thought they just provided QT.

No answers here, just questions :)

Edit: removed the part about freedom. It's enough off topic as it is ;)

[super]

1. What does "desktop integration" mean? (for both KDE and GNOME)
2. Why is Nautilus, a file manager, responsible for drawing the desktop?

1. you are right. desktop integration means totally different things on kde and gnome. i personally have found gnome to be more modular than kde. (maybe it's not, but that's the way iv'e found it to be) for example, if i want my icons and gnome-panel and stuff as a desktop while using openbox i just run nautilus and gnome-panel and voila! i've got gnome stuff with openbox as a wm instead of metacity. if i also want gtk themes i run gnome-settings-daemon and i'm good to go. in kde c'est impossible. (or at least significantly more difficult)

that being said, running a gtk/gnome application in a different environment without running gnome-settings-daemon you get the nasty gtk fallback theme. were as running a qt/kde in a different wm and it will still looks good.

2. because your desktop is a folder and your shortcuts/launchers are files. isn't it logical then for a file manager to manage them?

[Jucato]

@Adrian: Trolltech develops Qt, Qt is used to develop KDE. So in a way, Trolltech is backing up KDE. on the other hand, no company is developing GTK+.

@super: Well, I guess there's another thing that separates GNOME and KDE. I'm not sure how KDE implements modularity, but I guess KDE's modularity is on a deeper level and does not seen on the front end. I'm not sure.

I guess the "desktop as a huge Nautilus window" idea sounds logical. That's actually what I did with rox-filer in Xubuntu. But that's because Xfce doesn't support desktop icons. I agree that the desktop is a folder and launchers are files and that the file manager should "manage" them. The keyword here is "manage" (I think). I think it's one thing to manage files/folders, but another thing to be responsible for displaying them. Because if you follow that logic, then Nautilus should also be displaying images, documents, videos, etc, and that disabling nautilus would disable the viewing of these things as well. But fact is, you have different apps for those. EDIT: Even KDE implements it differently. Like I said, Konqueror calls only a KPart. Alternatively, you can set it up to just launch the appropriate application.

But anyway, I guess that will be my last post for that. It's a GNOME design decision, and no matter what I say, it will stay like that until the devs decide to. Fact is, I'm intrigued by GNOME so much that I'm little by little trying it out. Who knows, I might even trade in the K for a G :D

P.S. Is there really a proper/more specific term for Nautilus "drawing" the desktop?

[Adrian]

@Adrian: Trolltech develops Qt, Qt is used to develop KDE. So in a way, Trolltech is backing up KDE. on the other hand, no company is developing GTK+.

Red Hat, for instance, has put a lot of money and resources into GTK+ though, so they have had financial support too. However, that is just a small (though very fundamental) part of the entire desktop environment. I believe both GNOME and KDE rely a lot on external funding. Novell, for instance, have both GNOME and KDE developers on their paylist.

Sorry for being off topic ;)

[Jucato]

Well, it's one thing to help in funding GTK, it's another thing to be actually developing it. Qt is developed inside Trolltech (AFAIK), by Trolltech developers, paid by Trolltech. Of course they have developers coming from other places, but main development is done by Trolltech.

It's like XGL and Novell. Novell made XGL, then gave it to the open source world.

(This thread has been off-topic since the nth post. :D)

[Adrian]

Well, it's one thing to help in funding GTK, it's another thing to be actually developing it. Qt is developed inside Trolltech (AFAIK), by Trolltech developers, paid by Trolltech. Of course they have developers coming from other places, but main development is done by Trolltech.

It's like XGL and Novell. Novell made XGL, then gave it to the open source world.

(This thread has been off-topic since the nth post. :D)

That's true. There IS a significant difference. Trolltech does all the job with QT, while GTK+ is a true open source community effort.

However, check out the people responsible for GTK+ and count the people from Red Hat and Novell (Ximian):
http://www.gtk.org/people.html

I guess my original point was that a DE is much more than the "ground" it is built "on" (GTK+ and QT), and that both of them have corporate support (GNOME in particular seems to be popular among corporations these days). I don't think one of them is more "noble" than the other, so to speak.

Even more off topic: I think the entire "KDE vs. GNOME" debate is quite sad. I really hope they will be able to coexist peacefully in the future (when people have forgotten the "there can only be one" mentality that Microsoft has given us). Linux is all about choices, and the desktop environment should be no exception.

[Jucato]

Well, it's just that GTK has existed and will continue to exist with or without major help Red Hat, Novell, etc. (as long as there are devs around to work on it). On the other hand, Qt did not exist without Trolltech and will have an uphill existence if Trolltech fails to support it. Not to mention that it will fall into the BSD License if such an event happens.

I'm also saddened by the GNOME/KDE debate. I like choices, the ability to choose what I need/want. But sometimes, choices make factions, and factions make arguments. Especially something as controversial as GNOME and KDE. The origins of these debate are not simple: GPL vs Qt (no more problems here), GTK vs Qt, C vs C++, RMS vs. Linus, etc. At least now the arguments are more civil and less emotional. But it's still there.

Maybe one day we will see the different DE's working smoothly together, if the efforts of the freedesktop.org will succeed. But as for having a single DE for all Unix-like OS'es, I'm completely against that. :D It's one of the beautiful things about Linux that Windows will never have.

Soon, we might have 5 DE's in the market, GNOME, KDE, Xfce, Enlightenment (if it ever pushes through with it's plans), and Mezzo. How's that for choices? :D

[Bandit]

hehe exactly...on paper. if one thinks about it, they had no option other than to appease the KDE crowd by making a statement. its a bit like politicians when they say "no new taxes". actions speak louder than words, and their actions say "gnome is now the default desktop [because it benefits us in the long run now that we're moving into the same territory as red hat in the enterprise. on the other hand, we have to make a formal statement so that we don't p-off the KDE crowd too much and end up rocking the boat because it could end up hurting us a lot]".


back on topic, i would say that KDE is more MS friendly.
When is the last time you installed SuSE. I try every version of SuSE out. KDE IS still the default install unless you change it your self.
Cheers,
Joey

[mcduck]

I have 2 questions about Nautilus that's been hanging in my head for a few days:
1. Why is nautilus loaded during GNOME startup? ("Loading Nautilus" in the splash screen)
2. Do you really have to press Ctrl+L for a location bar to appear (one where you can type in exact locations), or is there some way I can make it sit there by default?
1. Nautilus handles the gnome desktop too, so you need it for desktop icons and right-click menu.

2.There is option in nautilus preferences under 'behaviour'-tab: 'Always use text-entry location bar'. Or open configuration Editor (In Application/System Tools), browse to apps/nautilus/preferences and select 'always_use_location_entry'.

[dermotti]

XFCE + Thunar > Gnome + Nautius and KDE + Konqueror imho

[Avicus]

Haha! Thanks all for responding! VERY off topic but still very amusing and enlightening!

IMHO, thunar is the best filemanager, very light! Just not at all able to handle windows shares (like connect to them I mean to say). I do like the gnome desktop way and have used it and gnome-session-manager for decent desktop icons and filemanaging in fluxbox and even xfce4 (tricky, but I did it!).

I have found KDE to be too "shiny" for my tastes and the gnome inteface pleasing on the eyes. And I'll be damned if I can find anything in the KDE control panel for settings! Just too used to Gnome I suppose!

I've found nautilus a good manager for windows stuff if you set up your gnome install properly, there's also a few hidden settings plus further "plugins"/addition software that makes windows networks integration smoother for nautilus.

I'm still playing with konqueror but am also thinking that konq unfairly won (IMHO!) because so many more distros use KDE as the default...

[Jucato]

And I'll be damned if I can find anything in the KDE control panel for settings!
If you're using Kubuntu's System Settings, good luck finding anything where it's supposed to be. :D

[aysiu]

Use Alt-F2
kcontrol