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coolclassic
March 24th, 2010, 11:25 AM
I noticed the word changes in MS Licence between XP and 7

"By using the software, you accept these terms. If you do not accept them, do not use the software. Instead, return it to the retailer for a refund or credit. If you cannot obtain a refund there, contact Microsoft or the Microsoft affiliate serving your country for information about Microsoft’s refund policies".

"By using the software, you accept these terms. If you do not accept them, do not use the software. Instead, contact the manufacturer or installer to determine its return policy. You
must comply with that policy, which might limit your rights or require you to return the entire system on which the software is installed".

By reading Windows 7 licence it seems that there will be no refund. I wonder is this legal in UK being forced to by a product that you do not want?

madnessjack
March 24th, 2010, 11:29 AM
When you buy a new PC, Windows is not a product is part of the product

blueshiftoverwatch
March 24th, 2010, 11:53 AM
I guess they got tired of those pesky *nix users trying to get refunds for their unused copies of Windows.

The only practical solution in most cases is to build your own computer. Which can lead to considerable savings if you plan to go mid grade to top of the line. But, if you don't want something very powerful you can usually buy one pre-made for less than what I'd cost to build it yourself. Or in the case of laptops, can't build it yourself at all.

Although, either Dell or HP (can't remember which) sells laptops with RedHat Linux preinstalled.

3rdalbum
March 24th, 2010, 12:16 PM
Soon you may be able to buy parts for laptops and netbooks, and then assemble them yourself. Shuttle is bringing an 'OEM laptop build kit' to market soon.

Fenris_rising
March 24th, 2010, 12:16 PM
Legally as there is nothing faulty with the windows software (I never thought I'd say that =D ) Then the shop only has to offer a refund or credit note. Refunds are generally only applicable if the item in question is not 'fit for purpose' (Hmmm sounds like windows =D )

Perhaps the idea is the less you understand the EULA or the more you worry about the hassle of actually getting the refund the less likely you are to bother? Doesn't it only amount to a couple of quid now?

But I do take the point that why should you have to pay for something you don't want in the first place anyway. It is not beyond the wit of man, at the shop, to blank the HDD or even swap it out for a blank drive. Mind you if it's PC World the confusion such a request will cause is quite amusing =D.

I built my own PC and would again which saves all the hassle.

regards

Fenris

rottentree
March 24th, 2010, 12:27 PM
Soon you may be able to buy parts for laptops and netbooks, and then assemble them yourself. Shuttle is bringing an 'OEM laptop build kit' to market soon.

That sounds really awesome I hope they succeed.

BbUiDgZ
March 24th, 2010, 01:01 PM
i know many manufacturers now ship systems with OEM ubuntu
Dell are one that spring to mind

Tristam Green
March 24th, 2010, 01:44 PM
By reading Windows 7 licence it seems that there will be no refund. I wonder is this legal in UK being forced to by a product that you do not want?

As someone already stated, Windows is not the product, it is part of the product. Similar in nature to purchasing a named-brand stereo system in a brand-new automobile.

People are already being denied refunds on Windows, even if the reasons given aren't always worded intelligently.

UK teacher denied refund on Windows on basis that "it came free with the computer" (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/03/18/dell_windows_7_free/)

I take the above article with a grain of salt because it's written by that author (history of slight sensationalism) and because of the overall tone used by the man seeking his refund therein.

Likewise, the MS Windows 7 EULA (for those licenses purchased with a pre-built computer) (Home Basic) (http://download.microsoft.com/Documents/UseTerms/Windows%207_Home%20Basic_English_78a8bb5f-0fc1-496f-b86a-8c6c67c0d949.pdf) | (Home Premium) (http://download.microsoft.com/Documents/UseTerms/Windows%207_Home%20Premium_English_f3fcb9dc-3b69-4a18-ae3c-7d7bede82812.pdf) only has four instances of the word "refund" even listed, and in no context guarantees any refund will be given based solely on "dissatisfaction".

blueturtl
March 24th, 2010, 02:07 PM
If we're to ever get out of this mess, we're going to have to start putting our money on systems that don't come with Windows in the first place. Right now the selection is small, but it will never grow if all us Linux users keep buying in to the refund or "purchasing and discarding" options. Those options are not viable! So what if Microsoft doesn't get the money, neither will the system builders that favor Linux!

Geeks obviously build their own machines, but regular customers shouldn't have to in order to have their choice.

Meep3D
March 24th, 2010, 02:24 PM
If we're to ever get out of this mess, we're going to have to start putting our money on systems that don't come with Windows in the first place. Right now the selection is small, but it will never grow if all us Linux users keep buying in to the refund or "purchasing and discarding" options. Those options are not viable! So what if Microsoft doesn't get the money, neither will the system builders that favor Linux!

Geeks obviously build their own machines, but regular customers shouldn't have to in order to have their choice.

Indeed. It bugs the hell out of me when people post 'stick it to the man guides' on how to buy from Dell and then get a refund, all the while small vendors who actually support Linux get ignored.

If you don't want Windows don't buy a computer with Windows on it. If the seller doesn't offer that as an option vote with your wallet.

I hear a lot of good things about http://www.system76.com/ and personally I buy all my stuff from http://www.novatech.co.uk/ who, while they don't offer a Linux machine do offer OS-less machines with no hassle and a clear discount.

Support the people who support you. To be perfectly honest anyone who buys a Windows machine and then tries to return Windows is just being a ****.

Tristam Green
March 24th, 2010, 02:30 PM
The *only* problem I have with System76 is that their systems (netbook excluded, I *just* noticed the price drop to make it comparable to Acer AspireOnes) are extremely high-priced for what you get.

clanky
March 24th, 2010, 02:46 PM
By reading Windows 7 licence it seems that there will be no refund. I wonder is this legal in UK being forced to by a product that you do not want?

No one is being forced to buy anything, no one is being tricked, when you go into a shop to buy a PC it clearly states what the operating system is for that computer, if you don't want Windows then don't buy a PC that comes with Windows, simples.

In the same way that you wouldn't buy a PC with a nVidia graphics card and then take it back and ask for a refund because you have fitted an ATI card, you can't expect to buy a PC which was clearly labelled as coming with Windows and then demand a refund because you decided that you were going to use Linux.

As both Blueturtl and Meep have said above if you want to do something constructive then buy a PC which comes shipped with a Linux distro pre-installed, this will do far more to advance Linux than getting a refund from Microsoft ever will.

ssam
March 24th, 2010, 03:22 PM
there are places that sell computers without bundled windows. see http://nakedcomputers.org/ for a fairly good list. you get the advantage of hardware that works well with linux, and useful tech support.

cascade9
March 24th, 2010, 03:28 PM
Soon you may be able to buy parts for laptops and netbooks, and then assemble them yourself. Shuttle is bringing an 'OEM laptop build kit' to market soon.

Been around for ages already, but can be hard to find. Commonly called 'white box laptops', 'bare bone laptops' etc. I used to know where to get them here (brisneyland, qld) but that was just from knowing a few people who built thier own (and that shop is shut now) Some older white box laptops-

http://sohtell.se/AOpen1551/
http://hothardware.com/articles/Centrino-Duo-Whitebook-A-DoItYourself-Laptop1/

Currently avaible-

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16856172010

I'm sure that there are other white box laptops around as well.


Indeed. It bugs the hell out of me when people post 'stick it to the man guides' on how to buy from Dell and then get a refund, all the while small vendors who actually support Linux get ignored.

If you don't want Windows don't buy a computer with Windows on it. If the seller doesn't offer that as an option vote with your wallet.

I hear a lot of good things about http://www.system76.com/ and personally I buy all my stuff from http://www.novatech.co.uk/ who, while they don't offer a Linux machine do offer OS-less machines with no hassle and a clear discount.

Support the people who support you. To be perfectly honest anyone who buys a Windows machine and then tries to return Windows is just being a ****.

Exactly. I always biuld my own computers from parts, and if I wasnt technically minded enough to build, or I was after a laptop and couldnt find a 'white box laptop' around, I'd go to someone like system76.

whiskeylover
March 24th, 2010, 03:52 PM
This is like buying a Toyota, and then asking for a refund on the seat covers because you're going to install your own.

coolclassic
March 24th, 2010, 03:55 PM
If you don't want Windows don't buy a computer with Windows on it. If the seller doesn't offer that as an option vote with your wallet.


So i'm in the market for a netbook Dell offers a Linux netbook greate:D

I'm also in the market for a Linux Laptop Dell doesn't do one who does? I've checked out Novatech doesn't have what I want and linuxemporium far to expensive so where do I go for a linux based Laptop?


In the UK

Meep3D
March 24th, 2010, 04:06 PM
I'm also in the market for a Linux Laptop Dell doesn't do one who does? I've checked out Novatech doesn't have what I want and linuxemporium far to expensive so where do I go for a linux based Laptop?

It depends what you want!

Off the top of my head I also get hardware from ebuyer.co.uk and dabs.com, maybe they have something?

blueturtl
March 24th, 2010, 04:10 PM
ZaReason (http://zareason.com/shop/home.php) ships world wide.

saulgoode
March 24th, 2010, 04:23 PM
As someone already stated, Windows is not the product, it is part of the product. Similar in nature to purchasing a named-brand stereo system in a brand-new automobile.


This is like buying a Toyota, and then asking for a refund on the seat covers because you're going to install your own.


In the same way that you wouldn't buy a PC with a nVidia graphics card and then take it back and ask for a refund because you have fitted an ATI card, you can't expect to buy a PC which was clearly labelled as coming with Windows and then demand a refund because you decided that you were going to use Linux.

There is a distinction with all of these scenarios in that the Windows software is a copyrighted work -- car stereos, seat covers, and graphics cards are not. If a computer vendor is saying that Windows is "part of the system" then that system is effectively the media on which the software is delivered. Under U.S. copyright law, there is an explicit "right to use" by the owner of a copy of a copyrighted computer program (US Copyright Act, §117 (http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#117)).

Now if Microsoft wishes to abandon copyright protection on Windows, or if the computer vendor wishes to lease the computer to its customers (i.e., not "sell" it), then the customer would no longer have the right to claim the usage right of §117. However, in lieu of such arrangements, failing to offer a refund on the copyrighted work while placing restrictions on its usage would be in contravention of copyright law.

Tristam Green
March 24th, 2010, 04:30 PM
I see nothing in there about refunds, implied or otherwise. All Subsection 117 is telling me is that I may feel free to make a copy of the software for archival use, so long as I destroy the archive copy after my use of the software has ended.

blueturtl
March 24th, 2010, 04:34 PM
Not to mention it's a bad idea to give your money to a business that's trying to weasel you out of your rights. Giving your money to someone else instead of fighting with them about it sends a much clearer message of what you think.

whiskeylover
March 24th, 2010, 04:34 PM
There is a distinction with all of these scenarios in that the Windows software is a copyrighted work -- car stereos, seat covers, and graphics cards are not. If a computer vendor is saying that Windows is "part of the system" then that system is effectively the media on which the software is delivered. Under U.S. copyright law, there is an explicit "right to use" by the owner of a copy of a copyrighted computer program (US Copyright Act, §117 (http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#117)).

Now if Microsoft wishes to abandon copyright protection on Windows, or if the computer vendor wishes to lease the computer to its customers (i.e., not "sell" it), then the customer would no longer have the right to claim the usage right of §117. However, in lieu of such arrangements, failing to offer a refund on the copyrighted work while placing restrictions on its usage would be in contravention of copyright law.

What if you, say, bought multiple books on discount as part of a bundle. What do you expect the store would do if you buy a bundle, and then try to return one book. Would you be getting the amount back equal to the cost of the single book?

And yes, books are copyrighted.

saulgoode
March 24th, 2010, 04:49 PM
I see nothing in there about refunds, implied or otherwise. All Subsection 117 is telling me is that I may feel free to make a copy of the software for archival use, so long as I destroy the archive copy after my use of the software has ended.

The first paragraph also states that the owner has the right to make copies in order to use the program; i.e., any copying that takes place from DVD to harddrive to RAM necessary to use the program can not be prohibited by the copyright holder (it is not infringement). If such activity is permitted then the seller has no other basis upon which to prohibit the buyer from using the software.

To pursue your car stereo analogy so that it more aptly fits the software situation, it would be as though a person buys a car and the first time they turn on the radio, they are presented with a contract that asks them to agree to only listen to country music stations. Unless they have the option to return the radio for a refund then that agreement can not be legally binding. Doing so would mean that the seller is claiming post-sale rights which they have already forfeited at the time of the sale.

Meep3D
March 24th, 2010, 05:08 PM
To pursue your car stereo analogy so that it more aptly fits the software situation, it would be as though a person buys a car and the first time they turn on the radio, they are presented with a contract that asks them to agree to only listen to country music stations. Unless they have the option to return the radio for a refund then that agreement can not be legally binding. Doing so would mean that the seller is claiming post-sale rights which they have already forfeited at the time of the sale.

Yes, but the difference here is the people doing it largely are well aware of the restrictions, the license and were generally planning to reject it and get a refund before they even turned it on.

All the while the shops across the road who sell the 'non country' radios go out of business.

Sure it may be fine on a legal technicality, but it's a pretty lame, stupid and pointless thing to do in the first place.

Tristam Green
March 24th, 2010, 06:08 PM
To pursue your car stereo analogy so that it more aptly fits the software situation, it would be as though a person buys a car and the first time they turn on the radio, they are presented with a contract that asks them to agree to only listen to country music stations. Unless they have the option to return the radio for a refund then that agreement can not be legally binding. Doing so would mean that the seller is claiming post-sale rights which they have already forfeited at the time of the sale.

Sounds like Sirius/XM.