A discussion on grades

[forrestcupp]

What do you tell an early teen who says that grades don't matter until you get in high school?

I have a nephew who is very intelligent, but he gets really bad grades in junior high because he doesn't apply himself. He says that grades don't matter until he gets in high school, and at that time, he'll kick it in and start getting good grades.

I've had my own talk with him, but I was wondering what other people's advice would be.

[phrostbyte]

He is pretty much right.

[RiceMonster]

The grades you get now are the grades you'll always get. If you get used to slacking off, you'll never pick yourself up. You have to teach yourself proper work habits. I find that's true in most cases and was for me. I always did just enough, and I was convinced I'd pick it up in my last 2 years and I never did.

[forrestcupp]

Hint: There is a lot more to early school than GPA's and resumes for colleges and careers. The habits you form early in life will severely affect you later when things "really matter".

edit: RiceMonster ninja'd me. :)

[phrostbyte]

The grades you get now are the grades you'll always get. If you get used to slacking off, you'll never pick yourself up.

That's nonsense.

[Post Monkeh]

what matters is doing what he's told. if he goes into the workplace and starts telling his boss when it's important to work and when it isn't he won't impress anyone no matter how smart he is.
arrogance isn't an admirable trait to have either - and for him to think that once it matters he'll suddenly be able to start working and pick his grades up tells me he's a bit overconfident.

anyway, i'd be surprised if what he's saying wasn't just an excuse. he just sounds like he's too lazy to put the work in so is trying to justify it, but when the time comes, he'll only have more excuses for why he doesn't need to work.

sorry if that sounds harsh, but he reminds me of me circa 1992 :D

[Post Monkeh]

The grades you get now are the grades you'll always get. If you get used to slacking off, you'll never pick yourself up. You have to teach yourself proper work habits. I find that's true in most cases and was for me. I always did just enough, and I was convinced I'd pick it up in my last 2 years and I never did.

or what he said

[KiwiNZ]

The grades you get now are the grades you'll always get. If you get used to slacking off, you'll never pick yourself up. You have to teach yourself proper work habits. I find that's true in most cases and was for me. I always did just enough, and I was convinced I'd pick it up in my last 2 years and I never did.

This is very true.
Also missing basics now makes it harder down the track. Also why mess up one of the best learning opportunities in ones life .

[lisati]

The grades you get at school are only a tool and only tell part of the picture. For a long time I've had a sneaking suspicion that at best they tell you how well someone measures up to the criteria used to set the grads, which don't always relate well to real-world necessities.

[forrestcupp]

The grades you get at school are only a tool and only tell part of the picture. For a long time I've had a sneaking suspicion that at best they tell you how well someone measures up to the criteria used to set the grads, which don't always relate well to real-world necessities.

Unfortunately, even if that is true, the ability to manipulate the system actually does get you farther in life.

[sgosnell]

It's not necessarily always true that the grades he gets now are the grades he will always get, nor that habits can't be changed. But that's the way to bet. For the vast majority of adolescents and adults, that's the way it works. If you can get him working harder now, he'll have a far better chance throughout his life. Slack now, and the odds are great that you'll slack later. Not certain, but extremely likely.

[koenn]

Hint: There is a lot more to early school than GPA's and resumes for colleges and careers. The habits you form early in life will severely affect you later when things "really matter".

I think that's true, especially when it comes to school and study habits.

OTOH, school isn't for everyone.
I know a few rather intelligent people who never did well at school because the teachers and the subjects just couldn't keep them interested - too easy, too repetitive, not enough intellectual stimulation, ...

[LowSky]

I think you should not get involved in your nephew's life. Let his parents deal with him.

[koenn]

I think you should not get involved in your nephew's life. Let his parents deal with him.

why would education be the burden of the parents alone ?

why would it be wrong the have a positive influence on a kid that's not your own ?

what if a kid id dead set on rebelling against his parents, but still might take good advice from other adults, like an older brother or an uncle ?

...

[whiskeylover]

why would education be the burden of the parents alone ?

why would it be wrong the have a positive influence on a kid that's not your own ?

what if a kid id dead set on rebelling against his parents, but still might take good advice from other adults, like an older brother or an uncle ?

...

Its a cultural thing. Most Americans would consider it rude for a person, who's not the parent, to get involved. Its perfectly normal in most other cultures.

[Post Monkeh]

OTOH, school isn't for everyone.
I know a few rather intelligent people who never did well at school because the teachers and the subjects just couldn't keep them interested - too easy, too repetitive, not enough intellectual stimulation, ...

this can be true sometimes, but more often i think it's just people being lazy. i went to a good school and i personally saw so many people make nothing of their lives despite being smart, because they weren't interested in working hard. and others make a success of themselves just by pure dedication.

your ability to do well at school is sometimes more an indication of your ability to do well in the workplace than it is of your intelligence

[matthew.ball]

Grades don't mean anything, period.

I was in a massive car accident in year 7, I was in a coma for 6 months, as-well as receiving a fairly brutal head-injury and total paralysis of my left-side. I didn't care about anything after this, least of all education. As a result, I was a total slacker in high-school, rather than doing any work I spent the whole time smoking copious amounts of a certain drug. This continued into college, I didn't care there either.

Regardless, I still got accepted into a top university here and I have completely changed my ways, though I still smoke.

I'm an HD-average student doing a Computer Science/Philosophy double-degree. Basically, it all comes down to how motivated you are - I'm not particularly smart (the result of the car accident is proof of this), I just really enjoy what I'm doing. If you want it, you'll get it, with or without being told you can do it.

[forrestcupp]

I think you should not get involved in your nephew's life. Let his parents deal with him.

I'm letting his parents deal with him, but parents usually deal with kids in a much harsher manner than uncles do.

He opened up to me in a conversation. Do you think I'm not going to try to be a good influence on him?

[Shpongle]

Grades don't mean anything, period.

I was in a massive car accident in year 7, I was in a coma for 6 months, as-well as receiving a fairly brutal head-injury and total paralysis of my left-side. I didn't care about anything after this, least of all education. As a result, I was a total slacker in high-school, rather than doing any work I spent the whole time smoking copious amounts of a certain drug. This continued into college, I didn't care there either.

Regardless, I still got accepted into a top university here and I have completely changed my ways, though I still smoke.

I'm an HD-average student doing a Computer Science/Philosophy double-degree. Basically, it all comes down to how motivated you are - I'm not particularly smart (the result of the car accident is proof of this), I just really enjoy what I'm doing. If you want it, you'll get it, with or without being told you can do it.
i have to agree with this that its about self control and motivation . though I always got good grades , if you can teach yourself all you need is the internet to get information and sit the exam. Iv often passed modules that i never attended by cramming the night before and did better than people that have been going all along, you just have to understand it. Most exams test memory rather than knowledge!. A discussion & a practical exam would be better means to test someone. As for a certain drug , Im the same been doing it for years , hasn't effected my studies or anything else for that matter. i find it helps problem solving! ;-)

as for your nephew, he probably knows what he's doing although the more work he does now , the more it will pay off later. just my thought on this . . .

[koenn]

this can be true sometimes, but more often i think it's just people being lazy.

it can be either of both, and sometimes it's hard to tell the difference.



i went to a good school and i personally saw so many people make nothing of their lives despite being smart, because they weren't interested in working hard. and others make a success of themselves just by pure dedication.

your ability to do well at school is sometimes more an indication of your ability to do well in the workplace than it is of your intelligence

well, that's true, but being lazy is not always the reason. If you're smart or have better than average memory, you often don't need to work all that hard and still get good grades, so you never develop the skills and stamina to pull through when it's needed.

It comes down to that 'not developing the right habits' again, but for a different reason.

[koenn]

Grades don't mean anything, period.

I was ...
It could also be that you're an exception, and that this wouldn't work for 80% (or so) of the students ...

[forrestcupp]

i have to agree with this that its about self control and motivation .

But that's the problem here. He has the capacity to do really well, but he doesn't have any motivation and maybe self control.

I don't think it's all about grades, but I do think it's about trying to do the best you can do. If your best is a B average and you're getting a B average, you're doing better than someone whose best is an A average but they're getting a B average.

[uRock]

If he excels in middle school, he will be able to place into higher level classes in high school and maybe even start working on college credits in high school. My wife was 9 credits shy of her associates degree when she graduated from high school.

I respect the fact you are willing to try and be a mentor for your nephew. Too many people don't know what it is like to have a close knit family.

[crlang13]

But that's the problem here. He has the capacity to do really well, but he doesn't have any motivation and maybe self control.

I don't think it's all about grades, but I do think it's about trying to do the best you can do. If your best is a B average and you're getting a B average, you're doing better than someone whose best is an A average but they're getting a B average.

I have to agree with you on that. For years I coasted because I was lazy and not stimulated. I finally found something that I'm really passionate about and enjoy and am now excelling at that. Once I found out how awesome it is to do well at things, other things followed and I feel I'm a happier, more rounded individual because of that.

My advice to the OP would be to find that one thing in academia your nephew thinks is awesome. It could just be an individual subject, say math, and cultivate that. Or it could be a general bit of intellect/culture - like film or the theater. Once he finds that, he'll see how general academic ability is helpful in that one thing he's passionate about.

My 2 cents atleast...:p

[lisati]

why would education be the burden of the parents alone ?

why would it be wrong the have a positive influence on a kid that's not your own ?

what if a kid id dead set on rebelling against his parents, but still might take good advice from other adults, like an older brother or an uncle ?

...

No children of my own, but I'm fairly sure that I've had an influence on some of my nieces and nephews. A couple of my nephews (from Mrs Lisati's extended family) have seen me hiding behind a video camera and expressed an interest.

[sgosnell]

The view that Americans resent other family members getting involved in their children's lives only applies to a rather narrow subset of the population, I think. It is cultural, but certainly not universal. There is no 'American' culture, as such, because it involves such a mix of other cultures. And I consider that a good thing.

I slacked through school, especially junior high and high school, because there was no point in doing otherwise, unfortunately. I never studied, and never developed any study habits at all. I was the class valedictorian, in a small school, and never once had to study. When I went to college, the first in my family ever to go, that lack of study hit me hard, because there I needed to study to keep up, and I didn't know how. The small rural school, interested in teaching just enough so the graduates could be small farmers, didn't prepare me at all for higher education, certainly not enough science and math, so I had to catch up on my own. It was a struggle. If I had been forced to study earlier, I would have had a much easier time even without the needed classes. Habits you get into early are much harder to break, and I see nothing at all wrong with an uncle trying to motivate his nephew. I applaud it, because it seems obvious to me that someone needs to.

[aysiu]

What do you tell an early teen who says that grades don't matter until you get in high school?

I have a nephew who is very intelligent, but he gets really bad grades in junior high because he doesn't apply himself. He says that grades don't matter until he gets in high school, and at that time, he'll kick it in and start getting good grades.

I've had my own talk with him, but I was wondering what other people's advice would be. Assuming he's sincere in his belief grades don't matter, I would say this: Grades themselves don't matter, but they are what the teacher believes is a reflection of his performance and demonstration of his knowledge. Learning matters, and if your grades don't reflect you learning a lot, maybe you'd better apply yourself more. How you perform at each grade level affects the next. This is true in two senses: 1) Any kind of tracking-like decisions about who gets placed in upper-level courses in future grades usually has to do with how well you did in prior grades. Someone who has flunked out or gotten low grades in remedial math isn't suddenly going to be placed into advanced calculus in high school. 2) Teachers are human. Most of them try not to be prejudiced, but reputations can stick. If you get labeled as a dumb kid who doesn't try hard, you'll have to work doubly or triply to shake that reputation in future years. Doesn't really sound as if your nephew's into applying to a private high school, but if he wanted that option, then, yes the grades from junior high or middle school do matter in a very practical way. Some things to keep in mind, though...

I don't think your nephew is being sincere in saying grades don't matter. Most people who say that and are doing poorly in school are just looking for an excuse to justify their poor grades. The truth is more likely that he is just lazy and doesn't want to apply himself.

That said, in the grand scheme of life, grades don't really matter that much. A lot of folks subscribe to the master life narrative of get good grades so you can get into a good school so you can get a good job and have a nice house and then have kids who will do the same.

I did okay in school. I was naturally smart enough so that I could not try and scrape by with mostly Bs and some As. I had some really driven friends who pulled all-nighters and really ate, breathed, and slept academics so they could be the #1 or #2 students. Those students went to Harvard and Yale for undergrad and graduate schools and became lawyers. I'm not kidding. I went to a less prestigious but still well-respected undergrad school, then went to a prestigious school of education, taught for five years, and have had various education-related jobs in schools since quitting teaching.

Is their life better than mine? Who's to say? Could I have studied to be a lawyer if I'd wanted to? Sure. Could they have studied to be teachers? Sure. Will their Harvard degree impress a lot of people? Sure. Maybe they're still smarter than I am. Maybe they know a little more. Ultimately, though, both are married and seem happy. I'm married and am happy.

Life really is a lot more than about grades and going to a "good" university and getting a "good" job. If your nephew doesn't want to apply himself academically, ultimately it doesn't really matter. Does he have dreams, though? Does he have passions? Does he care about learning what does interest him? Is he a decent person? Does he have compassion for others? These are really the things that matter in life. And maybe even if he hasn't figured that out by adolescence... well, he wouldn't be the only one.

Long rant over...

[phrostbyte]

Unfortunately, even if that is true, the ability to manipulate the system actually does get you farther in life.

If by "farther in life" you mean amassing more wealth then your cohorts, then you are doing it the wrong way.

The school system is designed around generating the principal labor component of the economy: wage slaves.

The very few that escape this trap and become truly wealthy either have some kind of unique cunning and/or a trust fund.

[Shpongle]

If by "farther in life" you mean amassing more wealth then your cohorts, then you are doing it the wrong way.

The school system is designed around generating the principal labor component of the economy: wage slaves.

The very few that escape this trap and become truly wealthy either have some kind of unique cunning and/or a trust fund.

true but what can you do , you gotta survive to , better education on paper can get you a better job and a better pay grade in theory making it easier as you have more money , but money != happiness , to me happiness is more important!.

[forrestcupp]

Some of you made a good point that elementary and middle school grades are what gets you into the advanced/A.P. high school classes. I know my nephew isn't sincere and that he's lazy. He cares more about video games and guitar playing. I just want him to see that his argument is flawed so he can't justify his laziness. I like video games, I play guitar, and I got an A average in school.


true but what can you do , you gotta survive to , better education on paper can get you a better job and a better pay grade in theory making it easier as you have more money , but money != happiness , to me happiness is more important!.

I agree with the happiness thing. But I worked hard labor, menial jobs for a total of about 14 years working a lot of overtime doing hard work that I didn't like. And now I am working a job that is what I went to school for. Trust me; I'm a lot happier now.

[sgosnell]

It's probably true that money can't buy happiness, but it's certain that poverty can't. Being poor is not happiness, I can attest to that. You may not be happy if you have money, but you have a far better chance at it.

[Crowchild]

From personal experience, grades didn't matter too much for me and I am now considering doing a Masters degree if I can get the time.

If anything, I'd say that it's what they're supposed to reflect that is important. Such as work ethic. They say it takes 10000 hours practise to make an expert (Check out Malcolm Gladwell). Might as well get a head start and not wait for 'when it matters'.

I think it's awesome that you've chosen to be involved with him. That's what uncles are for. He needs a mentor to direct his interests.

[DoktorSeven]

Grades never mattered to me. They were largely a measurement of one's ability to do a ton of memorization, something I have never been good at. It's an imbalanced system that favors a certain type of person, and it isn't right.

Sadly, it continues on into much of university as well, which is one of the several reasons (money being the other big one) why I was never able to finish it.

[Simon17]

The grades you get now are the grades you'll always get. If you get used to slacking off, you'll never pick yourself up. You have to teach yourself proper work habits. I find that's true in most cases and was for me. I always did just enough, and I was convinced I'd pick it up in my last 2 years and I never did.

I was the same as the OP's nephew. I got mostly C's in jr. high and my first two years of highschool. I got straight A's my final two years.

I just didn't give a rat's *** about school until I was starting my junior year of highschool and I realized that a 2.0 GPA won't get you into a good college. A 3.0 isn't particularly impressive either, but I had good enough test scores to get into a decent school.

Maybe that's rare though.

OP: I'm thinking there's nothing you can do for your nephew. I got the same lecture from all of my teachers starting in 3rd grade about how I needed to start doing my homework and apply myself in school.

[the yawner]

Challenge the kid. A grading system is not just about rating a person's intelligence nor the capacity to learn. Diligence also comes into play. If he thinks he can handle high school then let him have a taste of it.

[matthew.ball]

It could also be that you're an exception, and that this wouldn't work for 80% (or so) of the students ...
I'm definitely not an exception. If you read the rest of my post, I'm pretty sure I provide evidence for why that isn't the case.

I lost half of my brain in the accident, and if I'm able to do what I can do with this much, everyone else should be able to do at least what I can (that, or think what could have been). Like I said, in the end it comes down to how motivated you are, and I am seriously proof of this.

Honestly, according to my doctors at the time, I was never even meant to wake-up from the coma, let alone be able to speak again. I was also physically destroyed. I just happened to find the motivation to prove everyone wrong (if you saw me on the street, you wouldn't be able to guess what happened).

[user1397]

i had straight A's till the 9th grade...then I said 'oh wait, i can do about half the work im doing and still get very decent grades...'

and that exactly what i did...

[johnb820]

I heard that when you are a baby, you had better learn to educate yourselves in all the play things in your crib so that you will be better off when you move into kindergarten. It's not being motivated that will hold you back from being successful in life!

[RabbitWho]

He's right, grades mean **** all. But study is a really valuable thing and an important skill as well as a fun hobby. Instead of telling him how important it is I'd try to find what he was interested in and try to find a way to get him to take an academic interest in that and start "studying" it without even realizing he's studying. That's the habit he needs to start as soon as possible, he needs to know that learning is fun!

I didn't start studying till i left school, and i don't regret getting mediocre grades, but I do regret all the time I lost that I could have spent studying and learning if I only realized it was something awesome and not some torture adults inflicted on us as an instrument of control.

[forrestcupp]

OP: I'm thinking there's nothing you can do for your nephew. I got the same lecture from all of my teachers starting in 3rd grade about how I needed to start doing my homework and apply myself in school.

But there's a big difference between being lectured by a bunch of lame teachers and being influenced by your cool uncle that is doing the things you're interested in. When I have engaging conversations with him about video games and guitars, it makes it a lot easier for him to be accepting of my example of applying yourself in school.



I lost half of my brain in the accident, and if I'm able to do what I can do with this much, everyone else should be able to do at least what I can (that, or think what could have been). Like I said, in the end it comes down to how motivated you are, and I am seriously proof of this.
In my original post, I should have focused less on grades and more on applying oneself in school. That was really what I was meaning. If you're making an attempt to live to the fullest of your capacity, then you are successful.

But no one can convince me that it isn't important to try; I don't care who you are.

[swoll1980]

The grades you get now are the grades you'll always get. If you get used to slacking off, you'll never pick yourself up. You have to teach yourself proper work habits. I find that's true in most cases and was for me. I always did just enough, and I was convinced I'd pick it up in my last 2 years and I never did.


Hint: There is a lot more to early school than GPA's and resumes for colleges and careers. The habits you form early in life will severely affect you later when things "really matter".

edit: RiceMonster ninja'd me. :)

I got horrible grades all through school, but now that I'm in collage, I have a 4.0 GPA, and made the dean's list 4 times. Go figure.

[Groucho Marxist]

What do you tell an early teen who says that grades don't matter until you get in high school?

I have a nephew who is very intelligent, but he gets really bad grades in junior high because he doesn't apply himself. He says that grades don't matter until he gets in high school, and at that time, he'll kick it in and start getting good grades.

I've had my own talk with him, but I was wondering what other people's advice would be.

The numerical designations are not the actual goals; grades, at any level of education, are reflections of problem solving and work ethic. Why bother undertaking a task if you are not willing to give the work your fullest attention?

Speaking frankly, in the 21st century, Americans who perform poorly throughout school can no longer rely on industrial labor to provide sustenance for themselves and their potential families. What this nephew needs to understand is that grades, while not the be-all end all achievement in life, aid him later in life. Mortgaging the present in exchange for an academic uncertainty is not a commendable thought to say the least. In a situation like this, I recall an insightful pop-cultural quote from Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn; "Be mindful of the future, but not at the expense of the moment." Here's hoping your nephew can change course and head to a new horizon :)

[mkendall]

But there's a big difference between being lectured by a bunch of lame teachers and being influenced by your cool uncle that is doing the things you're interested in. When I have engaging conversations with him about video games and guitars, it makes it a lot easier for him to be accepting of my example of applying yourself in school.
<snip>
But no one can convince me that it isn't important to try; I don't care who you are.

And continue to be the cool uncle. Also let him know you're disappointed. Don't lecture, don't threaten, just let him know that you think more of him than he apparently thinks of himself.

[Simon17]

But there's a big difference between being lectured by a bunch of lame teachers and being influenced by your cool uncle that is doing the things you're interested in.

Lawl, but you're right. I remember a couple times where a didn't finish my homework because I got sidetracked and read a couple of chapters in my textbook that I wasn't assigned. When I was in school, I almost never did my homework, and it wasn't always because I was busy playing video games or football.

I think the kid isn't necessarily lazy or unmotivated; school just sucks.

Maybe you can get him into some clubs or extra activities or maybe he can skip a grade in school, but bottom line is that he won't apply himself in school until he wants to.

[ericmc783]

My cumulative GPA while in middle school: 1.50.

I just did not care, and didn't see how getting better grades would make my life better. I was super lazy.

My cumulative GPA while in high school: 2.25

I worked harder and stopped getting F's, since I knew I needed to graduate, and got fewer D's. However, I never applied myself more than necessary, and mostly got C's.

My cumulative GPA while in college: 3.45

When it actually means something, then I give a damn. This 3.45 GPA came with me giving it my all. I was actually VERY disappointed that I didn't get 3.5 or higher, to qualify as an honors student (I at least came close).

Today, I have a good full-time job in the tech industry, with benefits. I'm not rich, but I'm definitely not poor either. My income is well above the poverty line, and allows me to maintain a good standard of living.

My only regret is that I do wish I applied myself more in high school, so I could have gotten into a college I would have enjoyed attending more (and that would have been simply for my own personal enjoyment, and not necessarily would have guaranteed that I'd have a better job right now).

So in the end, what did not getting great grades in middle school and high school cost me? other than my first choice of college, absolutely nothing. poor grades in middle school didn't cause me to miss out on anything, except for a few meaningless awards here and there.