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Meep3D
March 5th, 2010, 03:22 AM
I am sure everyone is well aware of the whole 'Linux Haters' subculture that is evolving. The original LH blog still regularly breaks blogger by having too many comments and there are dozens of blogs devoted to 'Linux Hatred'.

Reading a lot of these blogs two things are immediatley obvious:
1) The posters generally know Linux better than most Linux advocates.
2) The posters must actually *care* about Linux to spend time critiquing it.

In my experience the reason that these blogs exist (and gradually get more and more bitter) is due to there being virtually no outlet or place for criticism in any official distro community, with critics being treated with extreme hostility and contempt.

Take here for example - you can ask for help but if I was to create a post detailing my issues with Ubuntu (no matter how non-flamey) it would not last long at all - and there is no forum for feedback. There is the ideapit but it's not really suitable for actual feedback and is overly moderated (and does not lend itself to debate), and also Bugzilla, which again does not lend itself to debate.

I actually fell into this trap originally, back on the release of Warty, in that I tried to 'get involved' (being a developer and a critic) but found that short of forking it myself my opinions were essentially worthless, and criticsm of any kind is largely treated with hostility.

To point at an example of this effect, here's a famous post by ESR (a FOSS zealot if ever there was one):
http://catb.org/~esr/writings/luxury-part-deux.html

To quote, "This rant made it onto all the major open-source news channels, so I was expecting a fair amount of feedback (and maybe pushback). But the volume of community reaction that thundered into my mailbox far surpassed what I had been expecting — and the dominant theme, too, was a bit of a surprise. Not the hundreds of iterations of "Tell it, brother!", nor the handful of people who excoriated me as an arrogant twerp; those are both normal features of the response when I fire a broadside. No, the really interesting part was how many of the letters said. in effect, "Gee. And all this time I thought it was just me..."

The Linux community has always been about contributing and has generally always been hostile to criticism (after all who complains about free stuff?), but now that Ubuntu and other Linux distros are more commonly aimed at normal users, who have no hope of fixing it themselves (and often do not even understand the problem) and are pitched as direct competitors to commercial OS's maybe more effort should be put into taking note of their issues?

Essentially what I am saying is that the opinions of those that use the software are not worth much, but the opinions of the people who have tried it and don't use it are worth so much more and it seems like this is a demographic that few care about.

Short Version: Preaching to the choir will never fix bug #1.

ndefontenay
March 5th, 2010, 03:26 AM
I have got to agree with that. There should be a thread:
I love Ubuntu.

And a thread
I hate Ubuntu.

Calling it I hate ubuntu doesn't really mean I would write their because I hate it but simply push people to say what they think more.

Criticism is important.

aysiu
March 5th, 2010, 03:52 AM
Constructive criticism is great. Vague criticism and sweeping generalizations based on singular personal experiences are not.

Also, much as you dislike Brainstorm and Launchpad, those are the proper outlets for communicating ideas to developers. You can post rant threads here all you want, and even if the other users here "listen" to your "criticism," that will do nothing to actually change the Ubuntu software experience.

If someone comes in here and says "I had a lot of trouble with Ubuntu, and I'm going back to Windows," I'll say "Sorry it didn't work out for you. Use what works for you." But if someone says "I had a horrible experience with Ubuntu. Who can use this? Only programmers can get Ubuntu to work. This is why no one uses Ubuntu," then I can't take that seriously as "criticism." I am not a programmer. Plenty of people use Ubuntu. Why is your bad experience more valid than my good experience? Did you consider that you are installing and configuring an unfamiliar operating yourself and not even researching hardware compatibility? No. Not really. And you're comparing that to an operating system "everyone" uses that came preinstalled on your computer? Yeah. Really.

So, when I see a good idea and valid criticism (like the person who posted a thread saying it's ridiculous that the Gnome desktop stacks icons on top of each other instead of auto-arranging), I get excited and point them to the proper Brainstorm and Bugzilla links.

When I see a thread ranting about "This is why Linux isn't ready for the masses," I roll my eyes, because I know there will be nothing productive in that thread.

If the so-called Linux haters of which you speak 1) know more about Linux than advocates and 2) care about Linux, why don't they actually fix the problems they complain about?

A year and a half ago, I listed My top ten favorite Ubuntu Brainstorm usability ideas (http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntucat/brainstormtopten/), and only the first two (as far as I can tell) actually got implemented in Ubuntu.

I'd love to see the others fixed. Do you consider me a Linux hater for suggesting changes and improvements? I don't consider myself a Linux hater, and I haven't been met with extreme hostility for offering specific constructive criticism. Why do people think their suggestions should be taken seriously if they hate on something?

DeadSuperHero
March 5th, 2010, 04:31 AM
Yeah, gotta admit that the "haters" can make some incredibly valid arguments. But you have to realize that that is their own choice to not use an operating system, and their own reasons for disliking it.

Just because they argue against it well doesn't mean you can't like it for what it is.

Meep3D
March 5th, 2010, 05:08 AM
Yeah, gotta admit that the "haters" can make some incredibly valid arguments. But you have to realize that that is their own choice to not use an operating system, and their own reasons for disliking it.

Just because they argue against it well doesn't mean you can't like it for what it is.

True, but you can't aim for marketshare and also not accept criticisms as valid.

I always found this thread amusing, where the developer of Braid gets abuse for criticising the development tools and environment of Linux:
http://braid-game.com/news/?p=364

It's this sort of person that should be actively involved in the development process but looking at that thread you can see the 'Sith Lord' style conversion of his from cautious optimism to Linux hater. It's that sort of reception that criticism gets that I think is a huge problem. People turn into haters because they get told they are idiots when they raise issues.

witeshark17
March 5th, 2010, 05:46 AM
IMO, Linux hate can be connected to irrationality every time. :D

Frak
March 5th, 2010, 06:09 AM
IMO, Linux hate can be connected to irrationality every time. :D
Any hate can be connected to immaturity every time.

gymophett
March 5th, 2010, 06:11 AM
I can't believe people actually waste their time hating. Can't we all just get along? xD

NightwishFan
March 5th, 2010, 06:32 AM
Back when I was miffed about Microsoft, I used to say:

'I still give Windows credit when it is due.'

That is an arrogant thing to say, considering I was no longer a Windows customer, and had no stake in telling them what they did right or wrong. I now learned I might as well hope for the best in all things, no matter if I agree or not. It is perfectly fine to say, 'This could be better.' when it is not just a method of slander.

chucky chuckaluck
March 5th, 2010, 07:20 AM
Hating linux is an absurdity on a par with loving it. It's like hating/loving a shovel.

Artificial Intelligence
March 5th, 2010, 07:23 AM
I can't believe people actually waste their time hating. Can't we all just get along? xD

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WusHDsK1yBQ

gymophett
March 5th, 2010, 07:24 AM
hating linux is an absurdity on a par with loving it. It's like hating/loving a shovel.

+1

@Artificial Intelligence

Thanks for the laugh. :D

Madspyman
March 5th, 2010, 07:42 AM
I can't believe people actually waste their time hating. Can't we all just get along? xD

Seriously, whats with all this distro on distro violence? It's not enough we've got the Win/Mac users hating on us, everybody's knocking everybody else's Linux, we need to be happy we have so many choices, instead wishing we looked like Win or Mac.

ndefontenay
March 5th, 2010, 08:13 AM
I've spent a great deal of time reading this thread you gave a link for and the other link from there:

this one (http://www.newhorizonssucks.net/LiveCD.html)

Honestly, this is a windows user whose OS can't read his disk because it has bad clusters on it. Who used a live CD because that's about the only thing that could read it but still it was too hard for him. So he complains endlessly that aunt Lilly should be able to do that... I dnn't think aunt Lilly will ever put herself in this kind of trouble for starters.

I actually stopped about half way through because it's so painful to read.

It's a very asymmetrical point of view, I don't think you should worry much about this guy. He is just happy that he found an audience and is building on it. He will probably get some credit with the windows users who think they know linux but that's about it. Aunt Lilly, the type of person he worries so much for certainly doesn't read this kind of stuff and during this time Ubuntu is continuously improving.

I haven't mounted a disk on ubuntu, never.

It's a rude person seeking for his 15 minutes of fame.

Tibuda
March 5th, 2010, 11:34 AM
Hating linux is an absurdity on a par with loving it. It's like hating/loving a shovel.

+1

An operational system is a tool to get your job done (or have fun when you are playing games).

sxmaxchine
March 5th, 2010, 11:53 AM
the thing i hate most is people who laugh or critisize linux when they have not even used it.

madnessjack
March 5th, 2010, 12:02 PM
don't hate the haters, just ignore then. just love man. hating back only makes the world more negative.

Meep3D
March 5th, 2010, 12:33 PM
I've spent a great deal of time reading this thread you gave a link for and the other link from there:

this one (http://www.newhorizonssucks.net/LiveCD.html)

The GUI drive mount tools in Ubuntu are a very new addition. For a seriously long time the only way of mounting a partition was with the CLI. I had a simliar problem than this and fell into the 'little knowlege is a dangerous thing' category by doing something like (from memory)

mkdir /mnt/hdd1
sudo mount /dev/hda1 /mnt/hda1 -t ntfs

Which as you can see lacks the essential umask parameter to make the mounted partition accessible by non root. In my newbieness I tried all sorts of things (such as chmodding the /mnt/ dir) and running sudo nautilus to access it (turns out sudo nautilus cant access network shares).

To me having to deal with above was like going into a restaurant and being given a bowl of ingriedients and a bunsen burner. It was an era of serious hype on behalf of Ubuntu supporters, not to mention the serious amount of anti Windows FUD thrown around and telling people that it's 'faster, easier, more stable' and then making them deal with CLI drive mounting simply isn't acceptable.

Essentially this guy was lied to (and then burned) by over zealous Linux advocates presenting an unrealistic view of reality.

And although you can hate the guy and hate the tone what he is saying is perfectly valid, that missing off the umask parameter, something that is incredibly easy to overlook or just plain never know about, leads to disasterous results and confusion.

He wasted half a day trying to do something trivial and as a result is pissed off and has a poor view of Linux now - his opinion is now worthless because he's upset? It doesn't matter about his problems because you don't like his tone?


Hating linux is an absurdity on a par with loving it. It's like hating/loving a shovel.

Exactly. Use whatever shovel makes your life easier.

Post Monkeh
March 5th, 2010, 12:56 PM
A year and a half ago, I listed My top ten favorite Ubuntu Brainstorm usability ideas (http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntucat/brainstormtopten/), and only the first two (as far as I can tell) actually got implemented in Ubuntu.

I'd love to see the others fixed. Do you consider me a Linux hater for suggesting changes and improvements? I don't consider myself a Linux hater, and I haven't been met with extreme hostility for offering specific constructive criticism. Why do people think their suggestions should be taken seriously if they hate on something?

in fairness, the fact that you're staff means a lot of the people who would generally show hostility (angry young boys who feel like they have to defend linux to the death) are, for the want of a better word, sycophants, and swoon over most of the stuff posted by anyone with an ubuntu logo under their name - but that's just a personal observation.

these particular forums i have to say are quite open. most criticism is dealt with pretty well, and i can't say i've seen anyone flamed for criticising something. argued with sure, but issues like that need discussed and not just ignored.

i think maybe there's a bad impression given sometimes if people don't look at the reasons why certain posts/threads are closed or flamed. if something's set out well and explained, i've found that the issues involved are addressed well. everyone will have their own opinions, obviously, but at least it's addressed.
if someone does, as you say, have a post consisting of "this is crap, windows is better, how the hell can i be expected to know how to do this?" then people immediately think to themselves "here we go again" and the thread either becomes a row or gets locked. sometimes too many of those threads can give the impression that criticism isn't welcome, when actually so long as the criticism is explained properly and not just an angry rant, i think a lot of people secretly love getting the chance to have a debate.


and like other people have said, i think the problem here is anyone feeling "love" or "hate" for an operating system. emotions are bad when it comes to objectivity, and it's a little scary anyway that anyone could love a computer program. that's a slippery slope to something like this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/8551122.stm).

forrestcupp
March 5th, 2010, 01:24 PM
You have to go to the outlet that fits your need. If you need to bash Linux, go to one of those blogs. If you need to bash Windows, come here. ;)

Like aysiu said, it doesn't help anything. So why not just go to the venue that is set up for what you need to do?


Hating linux is an absurdity on a par with loving it. It's like hating/loving a shovel.
Lol. +1

Although I did have a shovel once that I was partial to. I lost about 3 years ago, and I'm still upset about it.

XubuRoxMySox
March 5th, 2010, 01:43 PM
There are proper ways and proper places for constructive criticism. And for simple "rants and raves" as well. Both have their place. The problem is either:

That one tries to occupy the other's place, or

That one is taken out of context as if it were an "article" instead of a blog rant, or a Defender of Linux reading a constructive criticism reacts to an objective constructive criticism with a rant of his or her own.

As long as we keep both things - and our responses to them - in their proper place, I think there will be a lot less "hate."

But there is one thing I truly hate... whining. Whether it's pro or con, against a product or a community, no one likes a whiner.

-Robin

samh785
March 5th, 2010, 02:03 PM
Constructive criticism is great. Vague criticism and sweeping generalizations based on singular personal experiences are not.
Wow, that's an amazing quote. I really want to put that on a T-shirt

clanky
March 5th, 2010, 02:30 PM
Constructive criticism is great. Vague criticism and sweeping generalizations based on singular personal experiences are not.

The problem is that for most people their singular personal experience is all they have. I can see where the OP is coming from on this, I have seen a few threads here with titles like "OMG why don't they fix Ubuntu" where someone complains about a problem that they are having and are shouted down by zealots who tell them it's not a problem at all.

They then feel that no-one will listen so what starts off as a slightly frustrated complaint here or on another Linux forum ends up as a rant on a "Linux hatred" site. (by the way the users of these sites generally don't hate Linux, they just want somewhere to be able to rant)

Part of the problem is that people get so defensive, only recently someone posted a relatively simple question, and received the reply "obvious troll is obvious",this sort of thing is what breeds sites like the OP mentioned.



And you're comparing that to an operating system "everyone" uses that came preinstalled on your computer? Yeah. Really.


The problem is that many people talk about Linux as though it is a straight replacement for Windows and that is why so many people are annoyed when it doesn't just work out of the box.

Obviously Canonical aren't going to allow people to come here and bitch and moan about Ubuntu, but there has to be somewhere for people to vent and if there was somewhere that people could go and vent that was looked at by developers then maybe some good would come out of it.

Tristam Green
March 5th, 2010, 02:52 PM
often times, the perceived hate has nothing to do with the operating system itself. operating systems are annoying. all of them. they all have their own quirks and idiosyncrasies that drive me completely up the wall.

the 'hate' is based in, as clanky said, the subculture of advocacy (zealotry in some cases) of a specific operating system as the panacea for all one's irritations.

for instance: windows memory leaks are an irritation. they bother me, but ultimately i can get over it. if they bother me too much, i can rant about it to my friends, forum colleagues, etc. being given an unsolicited opinion of 'i have your solution, install linux lolololz', though, is down right maddening.

likewise, the attitude of "i don't have that problem on *my* build, therefore there is no problem and you're either lying or are a shill" is equally hatred-inducing. it's something we've all witnessed at one time or another, and yes, even on this very board.

to recap: there is a marked difference between irritation and hatred, just as there is a marked difference between fandom and advocacy. i think it pretty impossible to hate something that will never draw a breath (as in an operating system's case).













***sidebar*** making fun of raving zealots/advocates of inanimate objects is fun, in any case, and actually alleviates feelings of hate.

MasterNetra
March 5th, 2010, 04:15 PM
Hating linux is an absurdity on a par with loving it. It's like hating/loving a shovel.

But I love my shovel its my best friend! It helps me go places underground. :p

on a more serious note...


Constructive criticism is great. Vague criticism and sweeping generalizations based on singular personal experiences are not.

Also, much as you dislike Brainstorm and Launchpad, those are the proper outlets for communicating ideas to developers. You can post rant threads here all you want, and even if the other users here "listen" to your "criticism," that will do nothing to actually change the Ubuntu software experience.

If someone comes in here and says "I had a lot of trouble with Ubuntu, and I'm going back to Windows," I'll say "Sorry it didn't work out for you. Use what works for you." But if someone says "I had a horrible experience with Ubuntu. Who can use this? Only programmers can get Ubuntu to work. This is why no one uses Ubuntu," then I can't take that seriously as "criticism." I am not a programmer. Plenty of people use Ubuntu. Why is your bad experience more valid than my good experience? Did you consider that you are installing and configuring an unfamiliar operating yourself and not even researching hardware compatibility? No. Not really. And you're comparing that to an operating system "everyone" uses that came preinstalled on your computer? Yeah. Really.

So, when I see a good idea and valid criticism (like the person who posted a thread saying it's ridiculous that the Gnome desktop stacks icons on top of each other instead of auto-arranging), I get excited and point them to the proper Brainstorm and Bugzilla links.

When I see a thread ranting about "This is why Linux isn't ready for the masses," I roll my eyes, because I know there will be nothing productive in that thread.

If the so-called Linux haters of which you speak 1) know more about Linux than advocates and 2) care about Linux, why don't they actually fix the problems they complain about?

A year and a half ago, I listed My top ten favorite Ubuntu Brainstorm usability ideas (http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntucat/brainstormtopten/), and only the first two (as far as I can tell) actually got implemented in Ubuntu.

I'd love to see the others fixed. Do you consider me a Linux hater for suggesting changes and improvements? I don't consider myself a Linux hater, and I haven't been met with extreme hostility for offering specific constructive criticism. Why do people think their suggestions should be taken seriously if they hate on something?

+1

thatguruguy
March 5th, 2010, 04:23 PM
Hating linux is an absurdity on a par with loving it. It's like hating/loving a shovel.

I love lamp.

RiceMonster
March 5th, 2010, 05:01 PM
i love lamp.
lol
LOUD NOISES!

NightwishFan
March 5th, 2010, 05:29 PM
*grenade* ahhhh!! ahhh!!!

Afternoon delight!

WinterMadness
March 5th, 2010, 05:30 PM
IMO, Linux hate can be connected to irrationality every time. :D

not true. Theres legitimate reasons to not use linux, or even like linux. Just like with windows, mac or bsd.

Simian Man
March 5th, 2010, 05:33 PM
I don't think too many people really hate Linux. The fanboys on the other hand...

gsmanners
March 5th, 2010, 05:40 PM
"Fanatics sometimes do crazy things." --Captain Obvious

doas777
March 5th, 2010, 05:50 PM
Hating linux is an absurdity on a par with loving it. It's like hating/loving a shovel.


your assertion makes sense from an analytical pov, but you have to remember to most of us linux is more than a set of tools. it is also a manifestation of a philosophy and a "movement". as such it is subject to love and hate.

JackRock
March 5th, 2010, 05:50 PM
not true. Theres legitimate reasons to not use linux, or even like linux. Just like with windows, mac or bsd.

They were talking about "hate", not "reasons to not use".

Hate is generally irrational and often immature. But choosing to use another product is not "hate", and therefore doesn't qualify for the statement. Though, one can lead to the other, they are not equivalent to each other.

Madspyman
March 5th, 2010, 06:04 PM
They were talking about "hate", not "reasons to not use".

Hate is generally irrational and often immature. But choosing to use another product is not "hate", and therefore doesn't qualify for the statement. Though, one can lead to the other, they are not equivalent to each other.

Yes but choosing one path over another doesn't often lead to indifference. We choose to validate ourselves based on the choices we make. Often times to protect our own pride we cut down others to help validate our own decisions, whether we've made the right decision or not.

madnessjack
March 5th, 2010, 06:12 PM
Quick reality check-
Do people really get emotional over a kernel?
:P

doas777
March 5th, 2010, 06:16 PM
Quick reality check-
Do people really get emotional over a kernel?
:P

no, but they do get emotional about what it represents. to many, linux is synonymous with OSS. we are talkign about feelings, and feelings will never be rational, or meet a thrid parties "reality checks" whatever "reality" is.

NightwishFan
March 5th, 2010, 06:20 PM
I do not mind saying I like free software. It is nice to know I own and can change the machine that is chugging away working so hard for me.

I agree with doas777.

toupeiro
March 5th, 2010, 06:26 PM
Quick reality check-
Do people really get emotional over a kernel?
:P

Supporting UNIX/Linux environments puts food in my family's mouths. Do I get over-emotional about a kernel? No.. Does its furthered development directly affect me? Yes. Ergo, do I care? Damn right. Open Source means I can contribute to its success and not be in the hands of one monolithic company to do whats best, which history and current events show us, never happens.

Tristam Green
March 5th, 2010, 06:47 PM
Quick reality check-
Do people really get emotional over a kernel?
:P

Alas, I miss the UF's minimeme of

KERNAL

chucky chuckaluck
March 5th, 2010, 06:53 PM
your assertion makes sense from an analytical pov, but you have to remember to most of us linux is more than a set of tools. it is also a manifestation of a philosophy and a "movement". as such it is subject to love and hate.

"Free the shovels!"
"Kill the lawnmowers!"

Linux is not inherently more than set of tools, though you have every right to attach whatever feelings you wish to those tools. The problem comes when one insists others should feel the same.

doas777
March 5th, 2010, 06:56 PM
"Free the shovels!"
"Kill the lawnmowers!"

Linux is not inherently more than set of tools, though you have every right to attach whatever feelings you wish to those tools. The problem comes when one insists others should feel the same.
fair 'nough

phrostbyte
March 5th, 2010, 07:03 PM
A lot of the notorious haters are simply disgruntled Windows developers. There is always a "there taking ur jerbs!" or "Linux is COMMUNISM!" theme in a lot of their blog posts.

Linux Hater is different is he know a little bit about what he is hating, and he might even be a Linux developer. That's why he is most popular.

Anyway I find it kind of funny as time goes on, Linux fanboys seem to becoming more open to criticism, while Microsoft fanboys, the opposite is happening. :p They are becoming what they hate, I guess.

phrostbyte
March 5th, 2010, 07:08 PM
"Free the shovels!"
"Kill the lawnmowers!"

Linux is not inherently more than set of tools, though you have every right to attach whatever feelings you wish to those tools. The problem comes when one insists others should feel the same.

I think what they are saying is it's not just about Linux, but the philosophical idea of "free culture/software" and it's meanings and possibilities.

chucky chuckaluck
March 5th, 2010, 07:17 PM
I think what they are saying is it's not just about Linux, but the philosophical idea of "free culture/software" and it's meanings and possibilities.

Right, but linux is just the most appropriate tool for those people to use.

phrostbyte
March 5th, 2010, 07:23 PM
Right, but linux is just the most appropriate tool for those people to use.

Once upon a time, Wikipedia was too primitive and young to be a good tool. But there was people who still used and improved it, not because it was a good tool, but because they believed Wikipedia could one day be a fountain on knowledge and information that will be free and accessible to everyone.

What I am trying to say, is there is more to just considering Linux a tool. The potential of Linux itself is something that drives people to use and improve it. And that's something you can't say about a standard shovel. Unless it was GNU/Shovel. :)

mickie.kext
March 5th, 2010, 07:31 PM
Anyway I find it kind of funny as time goes on, Linux fanboys seem to becoming more open to criticism, while Microsoft fanboys, the opposite is happening. :p They are becoming what they hate, I guess.

I think that is their idea on the first place. Change atmosphere, brand all satisfied Linux users as zealots, and later everybody who is not Windows zealot will be called FSF zealot, and FSF will be declared source of all evil. So idea is to invert people's morality and make Windows zealosy a reality and normal thing while Linux is devil and FSF is devils advocate.

Apple managed to do similar thing with their brand, now Microsoft want to copy, but just on broader scale. That is why they send so much of their marketing people all over internet message boards.

Tibuda
March 5th, 2010, 07:39 PM
I think that is their idea on the first place. Change atmosphere, brand all satisfied Linux users as zealots, and later everybody who is not Windows zealot will be called FSF zealot, and FSF will be declared source of all evil. So idea is to invert people's morality and make Windows zealosy a reality and normal thing while Linux is devil and FSF is devils advocate.

Apple managed to do similar thing with their brand, now Microsoft want to copy, but just on broader scale. That is why they send so much of their marketing people all over internet message boards.

do you really believe that?

Tristam Green
March 5th, 2010, 07:50 PM
I think that is their idea on the first place. Change atmosphere, brand all satisfied Linux users as zealots, and later everybody who is not Windows zealot will be called FSF zealot, and FSF will be declared source of all evil. So idea is to invert people's morality and make Windows zealosy a reality and normal thing while Linux is devil and FSF is devils advocate.

Apple managed to do similar thing with their brand, now Microsoft want to copy, but just on broader scale. That is why they send so much of their marketing people all over internet message boards.

whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa. whoa.

to phrostbyte: largescale windows fanboyism really died with vista's epic failure in terms of reputation. five years ago, i would have completely agreed with you. ms was the monster who could do no wrong, and then they dropped vista, and i think it was the catalyst to make the OS better, and not just "flashy looks on top of the same old junk".

conversely, i see the same thing happening to ubuntu (particularly) right now. i love the new look, don't get me wrong; but you can't honestly tell me that the biggest thing they have to work on is a new theme? that tells me one of two things: either there are more artists on the ubuntu team than there are developers, or the developers plain don't care that there are still a lot of unresolved functionality issues.

phrostbyte
March 5th, 2010, 07:50 PM
I think that is their idea on the first place. Change atmosphere, brand all satisfied Linux users as zealots, and later everybody who is not Windows zealot will be called FSF zealot, and FSF will be declared source of all evil. So idea is to invert people's morality and make Windows zealosy a reality and normal thing while Linux is devil and FSF is devils advocate.

Apple managed to do similar thing with their brand, now Microsoft want to copy, but just on broader scale. That is why they send so much of their marketing people all over internet message boards.

I agree with your premise that "zealotry" is actually helpful to a brand or product.

There was a very strong anti-zealot/nihilist movement in a Linux community starting a few years ago, which has scared people into thinking they shouldn't be "enthusiastic" about Linux. I think it has already done some damage.

As so far as Microsoft is concerned, I don't know if they are going into message boards and stuff like that. But they are definitely trying to promote zealotry regarding their products and position. That's what the whole "I'm a PC!" marketing campaign is about. They are trying to make their products part of the average person's individual or spiritual self existence. I don't know if it's working enough, but IMO, there are far more "Microsoft zealots" walking around these days. And that's a genuinely bad thing for Linux, considering that Linux lost a lot of it's own zealots.

Anyway, it's going to be a long fight either way. I really doubt Microsoft will win this in the end. They will not outlast us. They are just a company, but we are a ideology. :D

Tristam Green
March 5th, 2010, 07:53 PM
That's what the whole "I'm a PC!" marketing campaign is about.

It's an ad campaign. Nothing more. If it were meant to be a spiritual experience, they'd have dropped MS flyers in churches, mosques, and synagogues worldwide instead of hiring a cute actress like "Lauren" to go shopping.


Anyway, it's going to be a long fight either way. I really doubt Microsoft will win this in the end. They will not outlast us. They are just a company, but we are a ideology. :D

I think you should take many steps back from your screen, read this statement aloud, and ask yourself if you really think that "it's a fight" that needs to be "won".

phrostbyte
March 5th, 2010, 07:56 PM
It's an ad campaign. Nothing more. If it were meant to be a spiritual experience, they'd have dropped MS flyers in churches, mosques, and synagogues worldwide instead of hiring a cute actress like "Lauren" to go shopping.

Why work with existing relgions, when you can invent your own religion? So many people are irreligious these days, when you are spiritually empty, it's easy to attach a new brand of spirituality to these kinds of people.



I think you should take many steps back from your screen, read this statement aloud, and ask yourself if you really think that "it's a fight" that needs to be "won".

It's definitely a fight worth fighting, and worth winning too. :)

Tristam Green
March 5th, 2010, 07:58 PM
oh, lord give me strength.

http://linsux.org/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/facepalm.gif

phrostbyte
March 5th, 2010, 08:00 PM
oh, lord give me strength.

http://linsux.org/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/facepalm.gif

All the strength you have will still not be sufficient. =P~

KiwiNZ
March 5th, 2010, 08:01 PM
If people dont like Linux/Ubuntu they can fix that ...... dont use it and dont moan about it.

If people dont like Ubuntu Forums The staff here can fix that for you.

Tristam Green
March 5th, 2010, 08:02 PM
If people dont like Linux/Ubuntu they can fix that ...... dont use it and dont moan about it.

If people dont like Ubuntu Forums The staff here can fix that for you.

That's certainly one way of putting it, Kiwi.

Post Monkeh
March 5th, 2010, 08:13 PM
until linux is able to easily run any windows program then it will never overtake windows as the most used os.
as it is night on impossible for linux to run all windows programs as well as windows, then anyone who seriously thinks that linux will "win" the "battle" anytime soon is delusional.

linux is great for many, but it isn't for everyone, and facts are unless something offers a discernable advantage, most people will just stick to what they know.

NightwishFan
March 5th, 2010, 08:15 PM
I am not hungry to overtake Windows. I show free software to people who have problems with Windows or Mac. The average user cares about cost and not freedom, which is the wrong reason to try open source.

ubunterooster
March 5th, 2010, 08:19 PM
To put it bluntly I thought most EULA's were IMMORAL before I even heard of Linux. We may not own our house, car, land, or (thanks to HP's EULA) even our computer. At least I own my OS. It may be communistic [note the suffix] because it's all shared, but it's not communist [note no suffix] because you don't HAVE to share. [Thanks for sharing anyway everybody]
Yes, Post Monkeh, I may be overzealous...

Oh, and my current free "shovel" is faster and easier [for me] to use. :D

aysiu
March 5th, 2010, 08:19 PM
until linux is able to easily run any windows program then it will never overtake windows as the most used os.
as it is night on impossible for linux to run all windows programs as well as windows, then anyone who seriously thinks that linux will "win" the "battle" anytime soon is delusional. You're making a lot of (bad) assumptions on how markets work. There are several ways in which Linux could overtake Windows without running Windows programs: More and more applications could move to "the cloud." A lot of people on these forums are paranoid about privacy, but the vast majority of users, for better or worse, prefer convenience to privacy. Web-based applications can be used on any OS--Mac, Linux-based, or Windows. At a certain point, if you become popular enough, companies start to take notice and port applications to your platform. Mac isn't quite there yet, but it's popular enough that a lot of commercial applications that used to be Windows-only are starting to make Mac ports. The larger a percentage a platform grabs, the more applications will get native ports. No need to run Windows software if the Windows software has a Mac version (or, possibly, in the future, a Linux version). Many Windows-only applications are niche applications. They may be important for productivity, but they're important to productivity for a minority of users. If 80% of users need application X that is available for Windows, Mac, and Linux, and 5% of users need application Y that is available for only Windows, then Linux can still get those 80% and thus overtake Windows. Of course, in reference to the prior point, if Linux was really at 80%, there would be no more such thing as Windows-only applications. For more details, read Linux-for-the-masses narratives (http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntucat/linux-for-the-masses-narratives/)

What you're describing sounds a lot like narrative #1, except focused more on software than hardware.

Tristam Green
March 5th, 2010, 08:20 PM
but the vast majority of users, for better or worse, prefer convenience to privacy.

That is a crying shame, too.

juanoleso
March 5th, 2010, 08:28 PM
I'm not sure if this has been said in the thread, but the original appeared to have been written almost 6 years ago and the follow-up almost 4 years ago. I can say that from my 2 years experience with linux, I have not had the trouble that that person had and, in that short time, I have seen improvements in UI since I first started with Hardy.

chucky chuckaluck
March 5th, 2010, 08:31 PM
What I am trying to say, is there is more to just considering Linux a tool. The potential of Linux itself is something that drives people to use and improve it. And that's something you can't say about a standard shovel. Unless it was GNU/Shovel. :)

Nonsense. Many tools have been improved many times. Improvement is not solely the property of linux.

phrostbyte
March 5th, 2010, 08:37 PM
That is a crying shame, too.

Isn't it? :p

phrostbyte
March 5th, 2010, 08:39 PM
Nonsense. Many tools have been improved many times. Improvement is not solely the property of linux.

Right, but how many shovels are there where I can take one of yours, and then make a perfect clone of it, for free? And there is a bunch of people improving this shovel and then giving out free copies of it to anyone who wants it. :)

Post Monkeh
March 5th, 2010, 08:44 PM
You're making a lot of (bad) assumptions on how markets work. There are several ways in which Linux could overtake Windows without running Windows programs: More and more applications could move to "the cloud." A lot of people on these forums are paranoid about privacy, but the vast majority of users, for better or worse, prefer convenience to privacy. Web-based applications can be used on any OS--Mac, Linux-based, or Windows. At a certain point, if you become popular enough, companies start to take notice and port applications to your platform. Mac isn't quite there yet, but it's popular enough that a lot of commercial applications that used to be Windows-only are starting to make Mac ports. The larger a percentage a platform grabs, the more applications will get native ports. No need to run Windows software if the Windows software has a Mac version (or, possibly, in the future, a Linux version). Many Windows-only applications are niche applications. They may be important for productivity, but they're important to productivity for a minority of users. If 80% of users need application X that is available for Windows, Mac, and Linux, and 5% of users need application Y that is available for only Windows, then Linux can still get those 80% and thus overtake Windows. Of course, in reference to the prior point, if Linux was really at 80%, there would be no more such thing as Windows-only applications. For more details, read Linux-for-the-masses narratives (http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntucat/linux-for-the-masses-narratives/)

What you're describing sounds a lot like narrative #1, except focused more on software than hardware.

IF cloud computing really takes off, linux may have a (small) chance of taking off with it, but i think you underestimate the number of companies that rely on windows software.

i've worked in 5 different workplaces since i left school.
every one of them was reliant on windows only software. there is no way in hell they would ever move to linux unless the software they were reliant on (and used to) was available on linux. and i don't mean software like office or email software, i mean specific software. maybe i'm reading too much into my own experiences, but anywhere i've ever worked would never switch to linux unless windows imploded, and i assume (badly or otherwise) that many other businesses would be the same.
linux may be able to offer alternatives, but like i said, companies don't change just because they can get the same productivity by doing something different. in some cases they won't even change if they can gain a slight increase. they need an obvious advantage in making a change before they'll change anything.

for your other point, obviously if linux was to have a couple of great years and get lots of publicity and gain a big enough market share, there would be a tipping point where the whole thing would snowball, but barring a major marketing offensive (doubtful i'd have thought) or a lot of luck, it aint going to happen.

aysiu
March 5th, 2010, 09:00 PM
for your other point, obviously if linux was to have a couple of great years and get lots of publicity and gain a big enough market share, there would be a tipping point where the whole thing would snowball, but barring a major marketing offensive (doubtful i'd have thought) or a lot of luck, it aint going to happen. I wasn't commenting on the likelihood of it happening. I was simply outlining the way in which it could happen, which is other than having 100% compatibility with Windows applications. In terms of comparative likelihood, it is far likelier that Linux will get to that tipping point and get native ports than that Linux will get 100% compatibility with native Windows applications.

chucky chuckaluck
March 5th, 2010, 09:01 PM
Right, but how many shovels are there where I can take one of yours, and then make a perfect clone of it, for free? And there is a bunch of people improving this shovel and then giving out free copies of it to anyone who wants it. :)

The freedom of which you speak is not inherent in linux. Linux is still simply a tool to which that freedom is applied. Linux's development has certainly been the result of that freedom, but linux can still be used without the least care for freedom.

doas777
March 5th, 2010, 09:06 PM
The freedom of which you speak is not inherent in linux. Linux is still simply a tool to which that freedom is applied. Linux's development has certainly been the result of that freedom, but linux can still be used without the least care for freedom.

true, but it is about the only thing that can be, so is it a wonder that we associate the linux with freedom? associating a rock with software freedom is about as productive as associating MS office with freedom. with linux the freedom can have manifest meaning.

XubuRoxMySox
March 5th, 2010, 09:06 PM
...I think you underestimate the number of companies that rely on Windows software. ... reliant on Windows-only software. There is no way they would ever move to Linux unless the software they were reliant on (and used to) was available on Linux. ... [businesses] would never switch to Linux unless Windows imploded.

All it would take is one flaw in Windows - akin to the Y2K-like bug that temporarily disabled thousands of Playstations for a few days - to demonstrate the folly of putting all of one's eggs in the same (Microsoft, or Apple) basket. Business people know that being locked into a single vendor and reliant solely on a single vendor is unwise. Not only in a business sense but in just about any sense.

There is definitely going to be a growing market for business software that will work on Linux for that one reason alone. But add to it the increasing number of governments and companies converting to Open Source in recent months, and I think demand for Linux-compatible business software is already at an all-time high. And I expect it to really gain momentum as more and more business see the folly of being locked in to a single vendor for such vital stuff.

That, of course, and one single Y2K-like crash that suddenly paralyzes all Windows 'puters and networks.

-Robin

saulgoode
March 5th, 2010, 09:09 PM
The freedom of which you speak is not inherent in linux. Linux is still simply a tool to which that freedom is applied. Linux's development has certainly been the result of that freedom, but linux can still be used without the least care for freedom.

"Linux" can still be used without freedom, but it can not be developed without it (and if it can't be developed... then it will cease being usable).

phrostbyte
March 5th, 2010, 09:11 PM
The freedom of which you speak is not inherent in linux. Linux is still simply a tool to which that freedom is applied. Linux's development has certainly been the result of that freedom, but linux can still be used without the least care for freedom.

But it contributed to the enthusiasm of Linux, I think. Obviously there are some people who view Linux as a tool. People view Wikipedia as a tool too. I guess you can say it's just a tool, that's right. But tool for what? Tools have a purpose. What is Linux's purpose? There is probably some people who view Linux as a tool for viewing lolcats. But there are some people who view it as a tool for a social change.

On social change, there is a great deal of philosophy and books written on the subject, on why something like Linux is a tool for social change. On my sig for instance, the book on the first is one such example. It's a book by Lawrence Lessig, it's very well known. But it's not the only one on the topic.

So when you say tool, you are right. But you can't compare Linux to an ordinary shovel. Unless you can perhaps point me to some philosophical books written on the common shovel. But it's really not the same thing. The typical nerd should always use a car analogy anyway. :)

KiwiNZ
March 5th, 2010, 09:12 PM
Constructive criticism is fine and healthy for any person or organization. However what I have seen of late has pushed my patience to its limit.

I put on notice , those who come here just to knock Ubuntu , Canonical , Linux and our community in general be warned , you may well be shown the exit. There is many places you can go to publish your prejudices.

aysiu
March 5th, 2010, 09:13 PM
At this point, it appears Google is the most likely to take Linux anywhere close to mainstream (and I don't mean servers--I don't know why people always need to jump and say "Linux is already prevalent in the server market").

Can you imagine if two years ago Canonical had said it was going to release Ubuntu-based mobile phones? How well do you think those would have done against the iPhone. The term "iPhone killer" is a stupid one that misses the point. Google's partners have been flooding the smartphone market with Android phones, and that happened because of Google, not because of Linux's own merits.

We don't live in a meritocracy. Brand-name recognition as well as financial and corporate muscle actually mean something. It's naive to believe simply having the best product will make you successful.

If Google wanted to put Linux on netbooks or tablets, believe me, Linux will be on netbooks and tablets and actually sell (maybe not as well as other ones, though). If we have to rely on Asus or Dell to put an existing Linux distro (not Android or Chrome) on netbooks or tablets, then Linux preinstalled will not take off. All the Linux-preinstalled options we've seen from major OEMs have been half-hearted efforts with absolutely zero (or, worse yet, negative) marketing.

Tristam Green
March 5th, 2010, 09:16 PM
At this point, it appears Google is the most likely to take Linux anywhere close to mainstream (and I don't mean servers--I don't know why people always need to jump and say "Linux is already prevalent in the server market").

Can you imagine if two years ago Canonical had said it was going to release Ubuntu-based mobile phones? How well do you think those would have done against the iPhone. The term "iPhone killer" is a stupid one that misses the point. Google's partners have been flooding the smartphone market with Android phones, and that happened because of Google, not because of Linux's own merits.

We don't live in a meritocracy. Brand-name recognition as well as financial and corporate muscle actually mean something. It's naive to believe simply having the best product will make you successful.

If Google wanted to put Linux on netbooks or tablets, believe me, Linux will be on netbooks and tablets and actually sell (maybe not as well as other ones, though). If we have to rely on Asus or Dell to put an existing Linux distro (not Android or Chrome) on netbooks or tablets, then Linux preinstalled will not take off. All the Linux-preinstalled options we've seen from major OEMs have been half-hearted efforts with absolutely zero (or, worse yet, negative) marketing.

I agree with this 100%.

k3nt0456
March 5th, 2010, 09:16 PM
If people dont like Linux/Ubuntu they can fix that ...... dont use it and dont moan about it.

If people dont like Ubuntu Forums The staff here can fix that for you.

This is why bug 1 will never be fixed.

I guess the "if you don't like it leave" mentality explains why the market share is so low?

RiceMonster
March 5th, 2010, 09:19 PM
This is why bug 1 will never be fixed.

I guess the "if you don't like it leave" mentality explains why the market share is so low?

It's not a Linux exclusive attitude. People say that about anything, and they're right in the sense that nobody's forcing you to use it.

aysiu
March 5th, 2010, 09:21 PM
Constructive criticism is fine and healthy for any person or organization. However what I have seen of late has pushed my patience to its limit.

I put on notice , those who come here just to knock Ubuntu , Canonical , Linux and our community in general be warned , you may well be shown the exit. There is many places you can go to publish your prejudices. People keep saying "It's just a tool" or "It's just a kernel," but the truth is most hater threads don't just bash the kernel or say "I have no use for this tool." There is also usually an attack, whether direct or indirect, on the community of developers and users.

I don't buy this whole "Why do people get so emotional about OSes?" line. I think it's a ploy to make certain users feel they're above natural human tendencies. People get attached to some of the products they use and the consumer choices they've made. No, people don't usually get all defensive about using a particular screwdriver or hammer brand. But it's quite common for choices in electronics or computing to involve emotional attachment and defensiveness as well as bashing.

I see people get into heated arguments over Firefox v. Opera, Motorola v. Nokia, iPhone OS v. Android, Sony eReader v. Kindle, HP v. Dell computers... sometimes people have arbitrary allegiances and that involves emotions. Think sports teams (the funny thing is they're attached to hometowns, but a lot of the players are not necessarily even from that town or area originally)... or in the Olympics.

Yeah, you could argue it's just sports (similar to "It's just a tool"), but I dare you to find a US Olympian who got a bronze instead of a silver or gold medal and yell in her face, "The US sucks at sports!" It's just sports, right?

No, it's not. And neither is an OS just a tool. Neither is your pet just a mindless organism. Neither is your university just an academic institution you spent time at.

Who you are is made of many things. It isn't just your personality, looks, and intelligence. It's the choices you make, the things you spend time on. It's also your lifestyle.

Now if someone comes on here and says "Linux sucks" I'm not going to go home and cry. I'm not that emotionally attached to Linux. But I have chosen to use Linux, and I have a right to make that choice. Other people have the right to choose something else if they prefer to. There is nothing constructive, though, in bashing other people's choices. If Linux doesn't work for you, great. Use something else then. If you want help, great. Ask for it, and you'll get it. If you have suggestions to make, great. Make the suggestions in the appropriate place and hope the developers will take those suggestions. Or, if you're a programmer, implement the suggestions yourself. All of those are valid actions.

Attacking an OS and directly or indirectly its users serves no productive purpose.

aysiu
March 5th, 2010, 09:23 PM
I guess the "if you don't like it leave" mentality explains why the market share is so low? No, it doesn't really, because both Apple and Microsoft have that mentality, and their OSes have higher market share (well, definitely Microsoft's anyway).

Have you tried making a suggestion to improve Windows or Mac OS X? How far did you get with those suggestions?

Post Monkeh
March 5th, 2010, 09:28 PM
I wasn't commenting on the likelihood of it happening. I was simply outlining the way in which it could happen, which is other than having 100% compatibility with Windows applications. In terms of comparative likelihood, it is far likelier that Linux will get to that tipping point and get native ports than that Linux will get 100% compatibility with native Windows applications.

maybe more likely, maybe not. i think it's a catch 22 situation. i think there are only so many people who are willing to try asomething different just for the sake of it, and there are so many people who will get so pissed off with windows that they'll try something different. of those people, some will go and buy a mac, some will try linux.
of those that try linux, a certain percentage will stay.
that is how things are right now and unless something changes, that's how they'll remain - and personally speaking i don't think that a tipping point will ever be reached like this. linux would have to be aggressively marketed - maybe google will succeed here - or microsoft would have to make a ****-up of the highest magnitude (which considering they survived vista would have to be something akin to saying they're bigger than jesus) before people would migrate to linux in the droves that would be required to kick start 3rd parties into providing software that could match what's available on windows.

the other problem you have then is convincing these companies to make that software open source.
i don't see linux as a niche market, i think there's potential there for it to gain more market share (if it wants to) i just think there are too many things that would stop it from overtaking microsoft (which is what the original point was)

Tristam Green
March 5th, 2010, 09:29 PM
Aysiu, I can understand that kind of frustration, as yes...I'm fairly attached to certain product lines myself.

The problem lies in the fact that there are sets of people who will defend a product simply because it's the "it" thing to do, or because they refuse to believe there'd be anything better.

(Yes, I'm aware that goes for all parties involved.)

That's when fandom or choice breeds obsession (I believe I used advocacy incorrectly previously in the thread) or, that dreaded word, zealotry.

Being a fan of a sports team is great. Being a loyal customer of Nokia, Apple, Motorola, whatever-cell-phone-manufacturer is great.

Buying/Using a product because it's given you years and years worth of satisfactory service is wonderful. The moment that a person steps over that line, though, and either buys or uses a product without even looking at the alternatives, and then decides that the product is simply better than everything else because of its name or brand? That is wrong.

phrostbyte
March 5th, 2010, 09:29 PM
At this point, it appears Google is the most likely to take Linux anywhere close to mainstream (and I don't mean servers--I don't know why people always need to jump and say "Linux is already prevalent in the server market").

Can you imagine if two years ago Canonical had said it was going to release Ubuntu-based mobile phones? How well do you think those would have done against the iPhone. The term "iPhone killer" is a stupid one that misses the point. Google's partners have been flooding the smartphone market with Android phones, and that happened because of Google, not because of Linux's own merits.

We don't live in a meritocracy. Brand-name recognition as well as financial and corporate muscle actually mean something. It's naive to believe simply having the best product will make you successful.

If Google wanted to put Linux on netbooks or tablets, believe me, Linux will be on netbooks and tablets and actually sell (maybe not as well as other ones, though). If we have to rely on Asus or Dell to put an existing Linux distro (not Android or Chrome) on netbooks or tablets, then Linux preinstalled will not take off. All the Linux-preinstalled options we've seen from major OEMs have been half-hearted efforts with absolutely zero (or, worse yet, negative) marketing.

But you really have to understand who the incumbent is here. They are a Fortune 10 company, who's flagship product is Linux's competition. Wikipedia may have had Britannica as competition, but it's not the same as lets say Microsoft is.

It's also I think a little easier to contribute to Wikipedia then it is for Linux, because you need some kind of strong expertise to work on these important projects, even more expertise then the average software engineer has. Very high end, complex stuff is involved in the kernel. While in Wikipedia.. almost everyone has expertise at least in some area of Wikipedia.

So combine the problem of expertise (which invariably requires funding), and the competition's sheer size and affluence in the industry, it is a very hard problem to solve. It is going to be a long fight, Ballmer knows this too.

It's interesting that the natural and mathematical laws seem to favor free software, while the man-made legal/economic situation seems to favor closed source. That's why to keep stuff closed, you have to actively fight in the courts, involve politicians, police, and essentially what decomposes to institutional violence to keep something closed. But for something to be open, it's just its natural state.

Eventually I think the natural laws, which can not easily be changed, will start to wear away the legal advantages the current IP regime has. Concepts that despite being so strong in the legal sense, have already been defeated in so many ways in the natural sense.

lykwydchykyn
March 5th, 2010, 09:30 PM
This is why bug 1 will never be fixed.

I guess the "if you don't like it leave" mentality explains why the market share is so low?

I really wish people would learn to differentiate between the user community and the development community. The reception of newbie feedback on UF has next to zero to do with how Ubuntu develops in the future. Just because criticisms get flamed by adolescents on a forum doesn't mean the developers aren't aware of and actively fixing the issues.

On the flip side, I would shudder to think that development were driven significantly by the vague rantings of new users. No matter what you do, someone isn't going to like it; you can't develop software in a knee-jerk, reactionary way with the sole intent of pacifying the biggest complainers.

Sometimes the people complaining are the ones with the thin skins; what is intended as simple realism ("if you don't like it, you don't have to use it") is misinterpreted as blind devotion and isolationism. I've had that happen to me before.

Madspyman
March 5th, 2010, 09:34 PM
No, it doesn't really, because both Apple and Microsoft have that mentality, and their OSes have higher market share (well, definitely Microsoft's anyway).

Have you tried making a suggestion to improve Windows or Mac OS X? How far did you get with those suggestions?

Windows 7 would have you believe it was completely community driven, ever seen the "I'm a PC and Windows 7 was my idea" commercials? They're marketing there OS as if it were OSS, and it's working.

Linux is OSS, maybe we need TV commercials.

Post Monkeh
March 5th, 2010, 09:34 PM
All it would take is one flaw in Windows - akin to the Y2K-like bug that temporarily disabled thousands of Playstations for a few days - to demonstrate the folly of putting all of one's eggs in the same (Microsoft, or Apple) basket. Business people know that being locked into a single vendor and reliant solely on a single vendor is unwise. Not only in a business sense but in just about any sense.

There is definitely going to be a growing market for business software that will work on Linux for that one reason alone. But add to it the increasing number of governments and companies converting to Open Source in recent months, and I think demand for Linux-compatible business software is already at an all-time high. And I expect it to really gain momentum as more and more business see the folly of being locked in to a single vendor for such vital stuff.

That, of course, and one single Y2K-like crash that suddenly paralyzes all Windows 'puters and networks.

-Robin
the thing is, if there is a serious problem with windows, people don't leave en masse, they leave in dribs and drabs. it would really take a series of prolonged problems with windows before there would be a mass exodus. the fact is, the problems your desktop user faces with windows isn't normally faced by the business user because the pcs are being used for different things. for the home user, there may be more attraction to linux because most of us aren't tied to windows software. which is kind of ironic since, one or two pieces of software aside, most companies would benefit from linux far more than your average home user would. the problem, as i said, is that for most users, change is only an option if it will lead to great rewards

chucky chuckaluck
March 5th, 2010, 09:36 PM
But it contributed to the enthusiasm of Linux, I think. Obviously there are some people who view Linux as a tool. People view Wikipedia as a tool too. I guess you can say it's just a tool, that's right. But tool for what? Tools have a purpose. What is Linux's purpose? There is probably some people who view Linux as a tool for viewing lolcats. But there are some people who view it as a tool for a social change.

its best use is as an operating system to run a computer. social change is best accomplished through political or violent means (as sad as it may be to include the latter).


On social change, there is a great deal of philosophy and books written on the subject, on why something like Linux is a tool for social change. On my sig for instance, the book on the first is one such example. It's a book by Lawrence Lessig, it's very well known. But it's not the only one on the topic.

lessig's book may be well known, but linux is not. using it for social change is like waving a black flag on a moonless night.


So when you say tool, you are right. But you can't compare Linux to an ordinary shovel. Unless you can perhaps point me to some philosophical books written on the common shovel. But it's really not the same thing. The typical nerd should always use a car analogy anyway. :)

more people have used shovels and farm tools in revolutions than have ever used linux for that purpose. and most people have heard of shovels.

Post Monkeh
March 5th, 2010, 09:41 PM
No, people don't usually get all defensive about using a particular screwdriver or hammer brand

i do, i hate it when i break my favourite screwdriver or have to lend it to someone :D

phrostbyte
March 5th, 2010, 09:41 PM
its best use is as an operating system to run a computer. social change is best accomplished through political or violent means (as sad as it may be to include the latter).

Tell Gandhi that. :)




lessig's book may be well known, but linux is not. using it for social change is like waving a black flag on a moonless night.

I would argue that Lessig's book is significantly less well known then Linux. I'm not sure how that's relevant though.



more people have used shovels and farm tools in revolutions than have ever used linux for that purpose. and most people have heard of shovels.

The most important weapon in any revolution, peaceful or violent, has always been, and will always be, the pen.

koenn
March 5th, 2010, 09:42 PM
its best use is as an operating system to run a computer. social change is best accomplished through political or violent means
not really. social change is best accomplished through social movement. You can add a political (or even violent) component to that, but those wouldn't be very effective if they're not rooted in a social movement.

Meep3D
March 5th, 2010, 09:50 PM
Have you tried making a suggestion to improve Windows or Mac OS X? How far did you get with those suggestions?
While not perfect, market forces and capitalism tend to force such companies to take notice of the needs of their users. Any company which steadfastly refuses to listen to their target audiance generally dies - the scrapheap of failed tech companies is a high pile. Even MS is not immune to this effect as witnessed by Vista and IE.

'Free Software' on the other hand has no such desire to please, and suffers no problems from people not using it as largely there is no penalty involved in low market penetration. The mantra seems to be largely "If you don't like it fix it or **** off". That utterly terrible 'Linux isn't Windows' article gets quoted on a near constant basis and has the closing summary:


If you really just want Windows without the malware and security issues: Read up on good security practices; install a good firewall, malware-detector, and anti-virus; replace IE with a more secure browser; and keep yourself up-to-date with security updates. There are people out there (myself included) who've used Windows since 3.1 days right through to XP without ever being infected with a virus or malware: you can do it too. Don't get Linux: It will fail miserably at being what you want it to be.

If you really want the security and performance of a Unix-based OS but with a customer-focussed attitude and an world-renowned interface: Buy an Apple Mac. OS X is great. But don't get Linux: It will not do what you want it to do.

It's not just about "Why should I want Linux?". It's also about "Why should Linux want me?"

No closed source company would ever dare promote or foster these attitudes, but here they are the norm.

I think that there is no actual Linux community, just a bunch of people who have arrived at the same point based on many differing ideological and practical paths, as a result there is no concensus of opinion and thus a hostility to anything which doesn't fit into any particular subgroups ideals.

Personally I just want good software, if I see a problem with something I'll say why, and once I understand it fully I am even willing to roll up my sleeves and fix it. All too often though my desire to discuss issues (as I don't claim to be right) is often seen as trolling by various sub factions and then 'debunked'. So it goes.

aysiu
March 5th, 2010, 09:57 PM
Meep3D, if you decide to quote someone else after quoting me, can you say whom you're quoting? The way you've quoted it here, it looks as if the second quotation is also supposed to be from me (it's not).

Meep3D
March 5th, 2010, 10:01 PM
Windows 7 would have you believe it was completely community driven, ever seen the "I'm a PC and Windows 7 was my idea" commercials? They're marketing there OS as if it were OSS, and it's working.

Linux is OSS, maybe we need TV commercials.
To be fair the development process for Windows 7 generally consisted of rounding up the top 100 most complained about issues in Vista and fixing them one by one.

Can I also say I fundamentally disagree with the asertion that the FOSS ideology is somehow for the benefit of society. The chance of reward is an unparalleled motivator, for example look at sxc.hu vs istockphoto.com - I generally always use istockphoto and am perfectly happy to pay for the large increase in choice and quality. Without such rewards the creators wouldn't create and society as a whole would be worse off. I don't claim the rights to freely duplicate any book I buy. IP is a seriously flawed system but it seems to work for the most part.

Anyway even if you could prove the FOSS argument it is still irrelevant - most people have a 'cause' (I tend to be with animal rights) which most other people don't care about in the slightest. Trying to sell software on a "it's not as good but that doesn't matter, it's more ethically sound" is simply a non-starter. You can't even get people to buy free range eggs.

Meep3D
March 5th, 2010, 10:03 PM
Meep3D, if you decide to quote someone else after quoting me, can you say whom you're quoting? The way you've quoted it here, it looks as if the second quotation is also supposed to be from me (it's not).

Sorry, the second quote is from the LNW article - http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm - not sure if I can attribute an author to it in bbcode. I certainly wasn't trying to make it look like you wrote that! :)

Johnsie
March 5th, 2010, 10:16 PM
I think it's ok for people to hate Linux. Everyone has different tastes and different political beliefs. I for one think that a programmer should have the right to sell his hard work and sometimes it is easier to sell something that is closed than something that is open and freely availble to the world.

I also have legitimate issues with multimedia in Linux, the quality of many of the applications and still have some hardware woes.

I paid alot of money for my computer so I want it to work well and I will complain if it doesn't, especially if someone is running around screaming that Linux is the best thing since sliced bread. I will challenge that because I don't think it is the best thing. I think if I pay a little money I might possibly be able to get something that I prefer.


There are many reasons to hate using Linux, but also many reason to like it. It just depends on your overall opinion.

ps. 9 times out of 10 if you criticise Ubuntu on these forums the moderators will look for any excuse to move the thread into a less visited forum like 'recurring discussions' or they will just close it. It's not quite censorship but it's close and sometimes it makes me wonder about the 'freedom' that some people like to talk about.

Personally I like Ubuntu and have used it for over 4 years but I prefer to use Windows due to the issues I mentioned above. I don't hate, but I think there is alot of work that needs to be done to get the quality of Ubuntu applications to a professional level. I hope that happens because it would nice to see Linux being a viable alternative to Windows and OSX on the desktop, but right now I dont think it is.

aysiu
March 5th, 2010, 10:22 PM
While not perfect, market forces and capitalism tend to force such companies to take notice of the needs of their users. Any company which steadfastly refuses to listen to their target audiance generally dies - the scrapheap of failed tech companies is a high pile. Even MS is not immune to this effect as witnessed by Vista and IE. I'm not buying it.

The market forces work only if people can easily switch to other alternatives, but as has been pointed in this thread multiple times, Microsoft has vendor lock-in, so even a lot of people who want to leave Windows for something else can't (because they're reliant on Windows-only software or hardware, or because they can't be bothered to download, install, and configure an alternative operating system).

In fact, it was only when the open source Firefox started challenging Internet Explorer's marketshare that Microsoft started improving IE (before IE 6 had been unchanged for years). Microsoft is very much in a position to not listen to their customers, and I deal with (at work) Windows users every day who find various things in Windows annoying, and I can guarantee you Microsoft isn't going to care what those users think. If they complain, the Microsoft PR folks will have just a more polite way of saying "If you don't like it, don't use it."

Look at UAC, for example. Great for security. Terrible for usability. People complained about UAC in Vista, and Microsoft decided to keep it in for 7 but just allow people to turn it off or make the prompt appear less often. Unfortunately, if you do that, the security benefits UAC offers all go away. What's the point, then? Might as well just run XP.

thunk77
March 5th, 2010, 11:00 PM
No, it doesn't really, because both Apple and Microsoft have that mentality, and their OSes have higher market share (well, definitely Microsoft's anyway).

Have you tried making a suggestion to improve Windows or Mac OS X? How far did you get with those suggestions?

Funny that you say that, because i was reading the other day a thread in a mac forum and some poor new mac user wanted to know if she could move the window buttons to the other side..

Oh the humiliation! the pain! the agony!

I have never seen such public and en mass bashing in a linux forum ever!

I remember rickh from the debian forums, but lets face it the guy was very funny and also equally ironic with debian users, even old timers.
I used to search his posts just for a good laugh :P
This remains the only time I've (sort of) come across the notorious


linuxusersareveryhostileanddrivepeopleawaythatswhy linuxwillnevermakeit
onthedesktoppluswinedoesntworksoicantusewordblahbl ahblah

Anyway, back to the mac forums. While reading the thread (in total shock from the responses) I was thinking "Wow, they are worst than us" (see what I did there? By using "us" I expressed emotion and a notion of belonging to a group of people like um.. right, a community, and made a distinction with another group, effectively saying that I believe in something other than just a kernel)

To the OP:
Where there is hate, there's also love. You can't have one without the other. So if there's love we must be doing something right ;)

Right?

Aysiu I always read your posts with great delight. Thanks for being here.

Regards

edit: Fixed the code :p

swoll1980
March 6th, 2010, 12:36 AM
your assertion makes sense from an analytical pov, but you have to remember to most of us linux is more than a set of tools. it is also a manifestation of a philosophy and a "movement". as such it is subject to love and hate.

To many it's also a creation. For anyone who's every wrote a line of code, or donated money, or filed a bug report, made a translation, or donated time to help the noobs. It becomes more than a tool. It's something you helped to build. Is it to love/hate a painting.

Ric_NYC
March 6th, 2010, 12:44 AM
Why would anyone "hate" Linux?

Kai69
March 6th, 2010, 01:24 AM
I like Linux \\:D/
I HATE Microsoft business practices in trying to kill off Linux and OSS by threatening to sue anyone from developing or using anything other than Microsoft products.

Ric_NYC
March 6th, 2010, 01:26 AM
I like Linux \\:D/
I HATE Microsoft business practices in trying to kill off Linux and OSS by threatening to sue anyone from developing or using anything other than Microsoft products.

\\:D/

+1



Open standards NOW!

katie-xx
March 6th, 2010, 01:44 AM
I just cant understand why anyone should hate an Operating System?
Using Linux can be enjoyable and challenging at times.
Whats to hate?


Kate

Frak
March 6th, 2010, 01:47 AM
Here's an interesting question: would anybody actually point out someone who "hates" Linux?

katie-xx
March 6th, 2010, 01:50 AM
Here's an interesting question: would anybody actually point out someone who "hates" Linux?

:)

Nice one ... but I still cant understand why anyone should hate an operating system.

Linux, Windows, VMS, Solaris ...whatever .... how could they be hated ..they are just products.

Maybe I would point out a VMS hater :) :) ..... not so.

Kate

Frak
March 6th, 2010, 01:54 AM
:)

Nice one ... but I still cant understand why anyone should hate an operating system.

Linux, Windows, VMS, Solaris ...whatever .... how could they be hated ..they are just products.

Maybe I would point out a VMS hater :) :) ..... not so.

Kate
I'm a Haiku-hater now. The yellow, I just don't care for it.

Down with Haiku!

Bachstelze
March 6th, 2010, 01:54 AM
If you need to bash Windows, come here. ;)

No, thanks.

ubunterooster
March 6th, 2010, 02:54 AM
A little off topic but it seems that the mods do NOT approve of ms bashing but I haven't seen them stop windows bashing. [you may make fun of what the guy did, but you may not make fun of the guy himself] "ms" is seriously frowned upon but in what I've seen "dindows", "widows", "bimdows"..... all seem to go free

Tibuda
March 6th, 2010, 02:56 AM
A little off topic but it seems that the mods do NOT approve of ms bashing but I haven't seen them stop windows bashing. [you may make fun of what the guy did, but you may not make fun of the guy himself] "m$" is seriously frowned upon but in what I've seen "dindows", "widows", "bimdows"..... all seem to go free

I think no bashing is approved at all. If you have seen unrespectful Windows bashing is probably because no one reported it yet.

I don't know, just guessing. I think staff here do a good job.

KiwiNZ
March 6th, 2010, 03:19 AM
A little off topic but it seems that the mods do NOT approve of ms bashing but I haven't seen them stop windows bashing. [you may make fun of what the guy did, but you may not make fun of the guy himself] "m$" is seriously frowned upon but in what I've seen "dindows", "widows", "bimdows"..... all seem to go free

In short , don't do it. Its not in the tone we require and it does nothing to enhance any argument, the opposite really.

holes88
March 6th, 2010, 03:38 AM
comparing operating systems is like politics if someone uses snow leopard and if another person uses a version of windows (95,98,2000,xp,vista,7)w/e it may be, or the great versions of Linux. Someone is always going to hate on it...:p

yester64
March 6th, 2010, 03:50 AM
You're making a lot of (bad) assumptions on how markets work. There are several ways in which Linux could overtake Windows without running Windows programs:

More and more applications could move to "the cloud." A lot of people on these forums are paranoid about privacy, but the vast majority of users, for better or worse, prefer convenience to privacy. Web-based applications can be used on any OS--Mac, Linux-based, or Windows.
At a certain point, if you become popular enough, companies start to take notice and port applications to your platform. Mac isn't quite there yet, but it's popular enough that a lot of commercial applications that used to be Windows-only are starting to make Mac ports. The larger a percentage a platform grabs, the more applications will get native ports. No need to run Windows software if the Windows software has a Mac version (or, possibly, in the future, a Linux version).
Many Windows-only applications are niche applications. They may be important for productivity, but they're important to productivity for a minority of users. If 80% of users need application X that is available for Windows, Mac, and Linux, and 5% of users need application Y that is available for only Windows, then Linux can still get those 80% and thus overtake Windows. Of course, in reference to the prior point, if Linux was really at 80%, there would be no more such thing as Windows-only applications.

For more details, read Linux-for-the-masses narratives (http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntucat/linux-for-the-masses-narratives/)

What you're describing sounds a lot like narrative #1, except focused more on software than hardware.

True true...
My opinion was always, that any system who wants to compete with Windows has to be a serious gaming platform as well.
Its not just about serious applications what drives a system, but gaming as a big tree.
Windows always benefited from taking over the gaming market. First from the home computer, then from Mac.
Because most people do not run Windows just for the pure satisfaction of Office.

The other point i like to make is, that cloud will be indeed a future of interaction.
The time you have a desktop which runs all your application is shrinking. You can see that already on what is purchased. Notebook, Netbook, Smartphones.
Users are getting more mobile and indeed Linux can play a larger role in that field.
But most users do not care what system is running in their phone. All they care is what they can do and what apps are running.
Only hardcore users care about the OS at all.
The benfits for linux would be most likely that you can run Office over the net with Linux. At that time it simply does not matter what system you are running.
The only downside might be DRM and i think it is not ruled out how it will affect cloudcomputing for linux yet.
Some services are simply not overing their service to linux based computers. Netflix comes to mind.


more offtopic to the quoteMost people assume that you are a poweruser who needs all the big application to get a job done. But this thinking is partly wrong. Most task do not need a big application to get it done.
For most users a limited power machine is already good enough and for these linux can be a option. Especially if its in the cloud where all your apps are.
Even gaming could be one time a webbased affair.
But i am not sure if that is the goal of linux to conquer the OS market. It might be more silently implemented without the user knowing.

Regarding the hater's i only can say, there is a professional approach and a unprofessional one.
Most i see on the forum are the latter.
If you really want, you can complain about pretty much everything. Linux will be never a substatution of Windows. People, and i did at one point too, expect Linux to be as same as Windows.
But with everything like an OS, you have to part from programs use used and how things can be done under a different OS.
The big guideline in post is always, Windows can do this and that. But what does that mean? If you can not do it or don't want to do it in a different way, you should stick with whatever you used before. Period.
In the beginning i participated in discussion and i became clear that the soul of the discussion ended always the same.
In essense it was useless and a waste of time.
Just alone to see topics like Linux is not ready. Ready for what? So i think most discussion are for the discussions sake and not for serious problem solving.

Thanks for reading and with that i take my comment off.

ubunterooster
March 6th, 2010, 04:10 AM
@kiwiNZ: Understood. I agree it is somewhat harmful. [Maybe it is just the members that are more lenient to report...]

cariboo
March 6th, 2010, 04:26 AM
A little off topic but it seems that the mods do NOT approve of ms bashing but I haven't seen them stop windows bashing. [you may make fun of what the guy did, but you may not make fun of the guy himself] "ms" is seriously frowned upon but in what I've seen "dindows", "widows", "bimdows"..... all seem to go free

If you see them report them, unfortunately we don't have time to read every post.

ubunterooster
March 6th, 2010, 05:25 AM
@cariboo: I misunderstood things. I'll keep that in mind, thankyou for correcting me.
[I hope you don't mind me bringing up that a few of us are expecting a mod to post on the "corrupt a wish" thread]

edit: which makes me think that I should alter my signature from "MS" to "proprietary software"

Fläsh
March 6th, 2010, 06:05 AM
From my experience most linux haters have no clue about what linux is and there mostly just generally trolls who want to make people mad.

Jkrowlin
March 6th, 2010, 10:48 PM
i hate them

Name change
March 7th, 2010, 12:22 AM
Hating an OS is stupid.
But you can still point out flaws in it.
And you can mock users who blindly believe in the OS, and don't acknowledge it's obvious problems...

But all in all if you "hate" a OS don't use it, or contribute to making it better.
Or if you *must* write/make funny rant about it and post in on the intrawebs and brace for the storm of enraged users of said OS saying that you're wrong on all accounts.

ibuclaw
March 7th, 2010, 12:44 AM
From my experience most linux haters have no clue about what linux is and there mostly just generally trolls who want to make people mad.

Or was introduced to Linux by someone who is not very good at giving first impressions.

One user-case I've heard from an old colleage - one of his friends had him sat down infront of an old Fedora installation and asked him to connect wirelessly to a router (which required some wpa_supplicant CLI magic at the time).

Not sure what his friend was trying to prove, but the annoyance of it generally put him off Linux in an irrational way.

KiwiNZ
March 7th, 2010, 01:12 AM
Hating an OS is stupid.
But you can still point out flaws in it.
And you can mock users who blindly believe in the OS, and don't acknowledge it's obvious problems...



But not here. If you mock user here you may will be shown the door. Remember this from our code of conduct ?....

" Be respectful of all users at all times. This means please use etiquette and politeness. Treat people with kindness and gentleness. If you do this the rest of the code of conduct won't need more than a cursory mention."

chriswyatt
March 7th, 2010, 01:15 AM
Over-zealous fanboys, haters, they're all annoying, I just ignore them.

ubunterooster
March 7th, 2010, 01:54 AM
I've seen two main types of Windows users: those who don't know whats going on at all, and those who don't care.
My one cousin is type2 "Yes, I know Linux can do more stuff, and do stuff faster, and do it for free, but I want to use Windows anyway" His words.
Other relatives of mine are type1 "Do I have to learn something new? No thanks"

We have our own stereotypes. Let's try to make it into a friendlier one. We all need to work on it, not at all excluding myself.

KiwiNZ
March 7th, 2010, 02:07 AM
I've seen two main types of Windows users: those who don't know whats going on at all, and those who don't care.
My one cousin is type2 "Yes, I know Linux can do more stuff, and do stuff faster, and do it for free, but I want to use Windows anyway" His words.
Other relatives of mine are type1 "Do I have to learn something new? No thanks"

I've only seen one kind of Mac user... lets not emulate that well-known arrogence [even if we are really better ;) <sarcasm> ]

Be respectful of all users at all times. This means please use etiquette and politeness.

KiwiNZ
March 7th, 2010, 02:08 AM
PS I am a Mac user ;)

ubunterooster
March 7th, 2010, 02:38 AM
Ouch! I deserved that for my inconsiderate post. Right now I feel like giving several lame "I said that because..." excuses, but at the same time wonder why you've been so patient. I thank you. I also take back my unspoken thoughts of disrespect towards the moderators. In the past day, I read a lot of posts and am beginning to realize how difficult being a moderator must be. I don't wish to make your burden any heavier.
[My thanks also for the post on the "corrupt a wish" thread]

holes88
March 7th, 2010, 06:42 AM
Oh and btw im sry for my typo saying "windows 85" I meant to say 95...

Madspyman
March 7th, 2010, 08:47 AM
PS I am a Mac user ;)

Do you have Ubuntu installed on it?

KiwiNZ
March 7th, 2010, 08:59 AM
No

I have Snow leopard on my iMac and MacbookPro.

Madspyman
March 7th, 2010, 09:27 AM
No

I have Snow leopard on my iMac and MacbookPro.

So what are your thoughts on the rebrand? Do you think Lucid Lynx resembles OS X?

Name change
March 7th, 2010, 09:55 AM
But not here. If you mock user here you may will be shown the door. Remember this from our code of conduct ?....

" Be respectful of all users at all times. This means please use etiquette and politeness. Treat people with kindness and gentleness. If you do this the rest of the code of conduct won't need more than a cursory mention."
Of course...
That's what blogs and YouTube are for...

KiwiNZ
March 7th, 2010, 06:55 PM
So what are your thoughts on the rebrand? Do you think Lucid Lynx resembles OS X?

All GUI systems resemble each other to some extent. That is unavoidable .

yester64
March 7th, 2010, 07:00 PM
I've seen two main types of Windows users: those who don't know whats going on at all, and those who don't care.
My one cousin is type2 "Yes, I know Linux can do more stuff, and do stuff faster, and do it for free, but I want to use Windows anyway" His words.
Other relatives of mine are type1 "Do I have to learn something new? No thanks"

We have our own stereotypes. Let's try to make it into a friendlier one. We all need to work on it, not at all excluding myself.

You know, i never say to anyone 'hey i run linux and btw. its better then windows'.
Its just wrong. If someone asks me, that fine and i will tell what i run.
People who 'love' or 'hate' an OS are like people who love a brand of a car. These are the people who are narrow minded and don't accept faults in their products.
I try to see myself as a professional in that i try to stay neutral and accept that even linux has its faults and is not perfect.
I would not even know what the point is of hating an OS.
If i look in threads here, i see a lot of childish behaviours that people express that there is nothing wrong with the system but you are wrong.
Instead of agreeing that hey there is a problem, people turn you as the problem.

Anyway, I see everyday that linux is not perfect but i live with it. And if you run windows you do the same.:popcorn:

Madspyman
March 7th, 2010, 07:08 PM
All GUI systems resemble each other to some extent. That is unavoidable .

Well played KiwiNZ, You say potato I say potato disguised as an Apple, lets call the whole thing off.

clanky
March 7th, 2010, 07:28 PM
You know, i never say to anyone 'hey i run linux and btw. its better then windows'.
Its just wrong. If someone asks me, that fine and i will tell what i run.

This is fine, the problems start when people who run Linux (or any other OS) get angry because someone else wants to discuss problems / faults with their choice of OS.

I agree that bashing Linux for the sake of bashing seems stupid, however the reason why it happens is because people get frustrated when genuine issues get pushed to one side because certain people do not want to admit to any faults whatsoever in Linux.

I was mentioned on another forum about how repulsive I find Richard Dawkins, even though I agree with most of hat he writes, someone replied that he has to be like that because people are so entrenched in their beliefs that they won't listen to reason and it takes the "shock value" of someone like Dawkins to make people listen.

That is what has happened to some extent within the Linux community. There is absoltely nothing wrong with singing the praises of Linux / Ubuntu / whatever when it does something well, but when half the known world hates pulse audio and people are till arguing that it is great and anyone who points out its obvious flaws gets shouted down as a Microsoft marketing guy infiltrating the internet then people start to get frustrated and act like Richard Dawkins.

If you really want the haters to go away then:

1. stop turning Linux / FOSS into some kind of holy war against Microsoft, it makes the whole Linux community seem like a bunch of people who's only agenda is hate, and generates a lot of hate in return.

2. allow people to point out problems with Linux (even when they are ranting, it is the defensive reaction to many of these rants (often caused by genuine frustration) which, as far as I can see causes most of the "Linux hatred". There is no need to jump to Linux's defence every time someone says "OMG sound is rubbish in Linux, why can't it just work like in Windows", the best response is simply "because Linux has some problems in that area". All that shouting people down when they raise issues does is turn a frustrated user into an angry user.

If this sort of thing stopped then there would be less frustration and anger and the "haters" would see that people were not so easily provoked and stop trying.

Dj Melik
March 7th, 2010, 07:32 PM
We don't hate Linux, the piece of software; or OSS software in general.
We hate the Linux Movement, the Advocates/Evangelists/Crusaders.

They preach freedom and force people to use FOSS software.

koenn
March 7th, 2010, 07:38 PM
... force people to use FOSS software.
how ? they take over your computer and install their FOSS on it ?
They hold a gun to your head and tell you what to install, or else ... ?

KiwiNZ
March 7th, 2010, 07:39 PM
This is fine, the problems start when people who run Linux (or any other OS) get angry because someone else wants to discuss problems / faults with their choice of OS.

I agree that bashing Linux for the sake of bashing seems stupid, however the reason why it happens is because people get frustrated when genuine issues get pushed to one side because certain people do not want to admit to any faults whatsoever in Linux.

I was mentioned on another forum about how repulsive I find Richard Dawkins, even though I agree with most of hat he writes, someone replied that he has to be like that because people are so entrenched in their beliefs that they won't listen to reason and it takes the "shock value" of someone like Dawkins to make people listen.

That is what has happened to some extent within the Linux community. There is absoltely nothing wrong with singing the praises of Linux / Ubuntu / whatever when it does something well, but when half the known world hates pulse audio and people are till arguing that it is great and anyone who points out its obvious flaws gets shouted down as a Microsoft marketing guy infiltrating the internet then people start to get frustrated and act like Richard Dawkins.

If you really want the haters to go away then:

1. stop turning Linux / FOSS into some kind of holy war against Microsoft, it makes the whole Linux community seem like a bunch of people who's only agenda is hate, and generates a lot of hate in return.

2. allow people to point out problems with Linux (even when they are ranting, it is the defensive reaction to many of these rants (often caused by genuine frustration) which, as far as I can see causes most of the "Linux hatred". There is no need to jump to Linux's defence every time someone says "OMG sound is rubbish in Linux, why can't it just work like in Windows", the best response is simply "because Linux has some problems in that area". All that shouting people down when they raise issues does is turn a frustrated user into an angry user.

If this sort of thing stopped then there would be less frustration and anger and the "haters" would see that people were not so easily provoked and stop trying.

There is of course those who come to Linux Forums and throw around derogatory "nicknames" for those who are enthusiastic about Linux.

There are those who come to Linux Forums and post silly pictures in reply to threads.

There are those who intentionally bait by their replies on Linux Forums in order to create disruption on Linux Forums.

Those persons are just as bad as the Zealots from any side. People are entitled to like what they like free from ridicule.

Post Monkeh
March 7th, 2010, 07:41 PM
They preach freedom

infidels!

Dj Melik
March 7th, 2010, 07:43 PM
how ? they take over your computer and install their FOSS on it ?
They hold a gun to your head and tell you what to install, or else ... ?
I'm pretty sure if most of the zealots had the capacity to, they would do it.

koenn
March 7th, 2010, 07:47 PM
@clanky
I understand your position.
Unfortunately, it have gotten to the point where it seems one can hardly post anything positive about ubuntu or linux on these forums without having a flock of zealots rushing in to "point out faults" and 'explain' to the OP how stupid he is.

koenn
March 7th, 2010, 07:49 PM
I'm pretty sure if most of the zealots had the capacity to, they would do it.
prejudice : a preconceived belief, opinion, or judgment made without ascertaining the facts of a case.

NightwishFan
March 7th, 2010, 07:50 PM
I would rather want someone to make the choice to use free software and not force them. It is not the same thing, just using is not the point. It is giving and giving back.

Dj Melik
March 7th, 2010, 07:58 PM
prejudice : a preconceived belief, opinion, or judgment made without ascertaining the facts of a case.
Eh, leave me alone.

I'm lazy to go find some crazy, loony RMS posts/essays.

koenn
March 7th, 2010, 08:00 PM
Eh, leave me alone.

bye

Penguin Guy
March 7th, 2010, 08:03 PM
I actually find those blogs quite funny.

clanky
March 7th, 2010, 08:10 PM
There is of course those who come to Linux Forums and throw around derogatory "nicknames" for those who are enthusiastic about Linux.

There are those who come to Linux Forums and post silly pictures in reply to threads.

There are those who intentionally bait by their replies on Linux Forums in order to create disruption on Linux Forums.

Those persons are just as bad as the Zealots from any side.

Kiwi, none of what I posted was trying to excuse the sort of behaviour that you are talking about, stuff like that is unacceptable, however, I believe that what I posted goes some way to explaining the root causes behind that type of behaviour.

The haters will never be beaten by crackdowns, bans, tones or tenors, if you were able to IP ban every "linux hater" in existence today the sort of behaviour I described in my post would generate more, in exactly the way that Microsoft's business practices and hype over several of what have been mediocre to awful pieces of software have spawned most of the Microsoft hatred which is around.



People are entitled to like what they like free from ridicule.

Yes, of course they are, I have been known to be positive about Linux myself :) but what I don't think people are entitled to do is shout down others with either genuine or perceived problems with Linux

gsmanners
March 7th, 2010, 08:11 PM
Posting a comment in a thread like this is like putting fairy wings on a freight train. The mindless presumptions just plow right over any intelligence.

clanky
March 7th, 2010, 08:15 PM
Posting a comment in a thread like this is like putting fairy wings on a freight train. The mindless presumptions just plow right over any intelligence.

Not always, the whole purpose of a forum is debate. Yes there will be some on both sides of the argument who will just see this thread as an excuse to continue the fight, but there will be some (again hopefully on both "sides") who will look at their own behaviour and stop to think that maybe they could be just a little less confrontational.

yester64
March 7th, 2010, 08:26 PM
This is fine, the problems start when people who run Linux (or any other OS) get angry because someone else wants to discuss problems / faults with their choice of OS.

I agree that bashing Linux for the sake of bashing seems stupid, however the reason why it happens is because people get frustrated when genuine issues get pushed to one side because certain people do not want to admit to any faults whatsoever in Linux.

I was mentioned on another forum about how repulsive I find Richard Dawkins, even though I agree with most of hat he writes, someone replied that he has to be like that because people are so entrenched in their beliefs that they won't listen to reason and it takes the "shock value" of someone like Dawkins to make people listen.

That is what has happened to some extent within the Linux community. There is absoltely nothing wrong with singing the praises of Linux / Ubuntu / whatever when it does something well, but when half the known world hates pulse audio and people are till arguing that it is great and anyone who points out its obvious flaws gets shouted down as a Microsoft marketing guy infiltrating the internet then people start to get frustrated and act like Richard Dawkins.

If you really want the haters to go away then:

1. stop turning Linux / FOSS into some kind of holy war against Microsoft, it makes the whole Linux community seem like a bunch of people who's only agenda is hate, and generates a lot of hate in return.

2. allow people to point out problems with Linux (even when they are ranting, it is the defensive reaction to many of these rants (often caused by genuine frustration) which, as far as I can see causes most of the "Linux hatred". There is no need to jump to Linux's defence every time someone says "OMG sound is rubbish in Linux, why can't it just work like in Windows", the best response is simply "because Linux has some problems in that area". All that shouting people down when they raise issues does is turn a frustrated user into an angry user.

If this sort of thing stopped then there would be less frustration and anger and the "haters" would see that people were not so easily provoked and stop trying.

You know, i think people go through different phases and some, well some get stuck in one phase and don't evolve any further.
In the beginning, as it was with me, i loved Linux over anything and i decried Windows as it was evil, evil, evil and so faulty my god how can it.
Now after a while you realize that, hey even linux has problems. Maybe not the same, but others. Some which can be as annoying as in windows.
Now what? You either admit that it is not perfect either or you pretend that is just not as bad as windows. Because windows is just evil.
As much as i wished that Linux supposed to be better, it is not. It has limits and has problems too. You just need to look at how many security holes linux has.
I for one joined now brainstorm and try to contribute that way. Not sure how it plays out, but i feel its more fruitful than to spill it in the forum.
The best way to make software better, is to admit that it has faults and try to fix them.
Besides, a problem i can totally agree on is, that people are polarized to the point that it is useless to talk at all.

clanky
March 7th, 2010, 08:35 PM
Besides, a problem i can totally agree on is, that people are polarized to the point that it is useless to talk at all.

the only thing which will change that is when the more level headed do talk, when people see that the good points of Linux can be pointed out without it automatically being zealotry and that the faults in Linux can be discussed without it automatically being Microsoft employees spreading FUD, then the polarisation might just be reduced one person at a time.

KiwiNZ
March 7th, 2010, 08:39 PM
the only thing which will change that is when the more level headed do talk, when people see that the good points of Linux can be pointed out without it automatically being zealotry and that the faults in Linux can be discussed without it automatically being Microsoft employees spreading FUD, then the polarisation might just be reduced one person at a time.

As I said earlier " Those persons are just as bad as the Zealots from any side. People are entitled to like what they like free from ridicule."

It's when those intent on disruption chime in that things generally go to pot due to their covert agendas.

chucky chuckaluck
March 7th, 2010, 08:42 PM
We don't hate Linux, the piece of software; or OSS software in general.
We hate the Linux Movement, the Advocates/Evangelists/Crusaders.

They preach freedom and force people to use FOSS software.



I'm pretty sure if most of the zealots had the capacity to, they would do it.

and then, there are the anti-zealot zealots...

(i think i might be at risk of becoming an anti anti-zealot zealotry zealot.)

KiwiNZ
March 7th, 2010, 08:43 PM
Kiwi, none of what I posted was trying to excuse the sort of behaviour that you are talking about, stuff like that is unacceptable, however, I believe that what I posted goes some way to explaining the root causes behind that type of behaviour.

The haters will never be beaten by crackdowns, bans, tones or tenors, if you were able to IP ban every "linux hater" in existence today the sort of behaviour I described in my post would generate more, in exactly the way that Microsoft's business practices and hype over several of what have been mediocre to awful pieces of software have spawned most of the Microsoft hatred which is around.



Yes, of course they are, I have been known to be positive about Linux myself :) but what I don't think people are entitled to do is shout down others with either genuine or perceived problems with Linux

We are hoping that a level of maturity will prevail and that some will move out of adolescent thinking. Those who don't will be 'actively' encouraged.

clanky
March 7th, 2010, 08:56 PM
As I said earlier " Those persons are just as bad as the Zealots from any side. People are entitled to like what they like free from ridicule."

It's when those intent on disruption chime in that things generally go to pot due to their covert agendas.

Kiwi, I agree wholeheartedly, but I still think that the best way to deal with this is to deal with the root causes of such behaviour.

Like I said above even if you could permaban every "Linux hater" from every Linux forum and the forum staff edited / removed every "ZOMG M$ IS STEALING UR FREEDOMS" type post, as long as the attitudes that I described in my first post exist within the Linux community then there will be haters.

clanky
March 7th, 2010, 09:00 PM
We are hoping that a level of maturity will prevail and that some will move out of adolescent thinking. Those who don't will be 'actively' encouraged.

Sorry, was busy replying to your earlier post, I was referring more to the general existence of Linux hatred rather than to specific posts made on these forums, obviously the forum staff have to deal with behaviour which contravenes the CoC, but I think the discussion is wider then just people posting on UF.

JDShu
March 7th, 2010, 09:06 PM
A hater's job is to hate. Let them do their job. - Katt Williams

Meep3D
March 7th, 2010, 11:02 PM
the only thing which will change that is when the more level headed do talk, when people see that the good points of Linux can be pointed out without it automatically being zealotry and that the faults in Linux can be discussed without it automatically being Microsoft employees spreading FUD, then the polarisation might just be reduced one person at a time.

This is the world I want.

At the moment the focus of the community seems entirely on 'support' and 'promotion', as I've pointed out there is nowhere in this forum for actually discussing Ubuntu.

Until the people who are using the software actually are able to (and actually do) give feedback, criticisms and ideas (outside a few sanitized areas) I don't really think it can be referred to as a 'community developed'.

Isn't the whole point to harness the power of community? The way I see it you have upstream developers sitting in ivory towers 'scratching their own itches', which then gets bundled up by a distro (in this case Ubuntu), meaning the chances of the upstream devs actually getting any meaningful feedback from their users is virtually nil.

There is a lot I don't like about Linux - I only use it for servers, instead relying on Windows + OSX for desktop use. I have ideas on what's wrong and ideas on how to fix it, but I don't know it that well, certainly not well enough to definitively say 'This is the problem, here's how to fix it'. I am also a programmer myself so I am not some rambling idiot but it's near on impossible to have the discussion as large amounts of the community are so emotionally invested in Linux and see criticisms of the code as criticisms of the FOSS ideology.

Icehuck
March 7th, 2010, 11:07 PM
I am also a programmer myself so I am not some rambling idiot but it's near on impossible to have the discussion as large amounts of the community are so emotionally invested in Linux and see criticisms of the code as criticisms of the FOSS ideology.

I would even venture to say that they take the criticisms as slights against themselves as well.

oldsoundguy
March 7th, 2010, 11:20 PM
I have read many of the posts to this thread and have come to the conclusion that the majority of the Linux bashers are the type of individuals that can not RTFM on ANYTHING. They are admitting in an open forum that that have no clue about the system and don't have enough brains or patience to figure it out! They need mommie to spoon feed them!

It is just an OPERATING SYSTEM, for cripes sakes! It just is a system that makes your computer RUN. And for that, it does well for the MAJORITY of those that decide they have enough gray matter to take the few minutes it DOES take to figure things out.

Right now, takes about as much to learn the basics of Linux as it does for Apple.

Icehuck
March 7th, 2010, 11:25 PM
I have read many of the posts to this thread and have come to the conclusion that the majority of the Linux bashers are the type of individuals that can not RTFM on ANYTHING. They are admitting in an open forum that that have no clue about the system and don't have enough brains or patience to figure it out! They need mommie to spoon feed them!

It is just an OPERATING SYSTEM, for cripes sakes! It just is a system that makes your computer RUN. And for that, it does well for the MAJORITY of those that decide they have enough gray matter to take the few minutes it DOES take to figure things out.


This is a bad attitude to take towards potential new users. The whole RTFM thing is one of the reason why people hated Linux users originally. Heck, were you around for the hate that came when easier to install distros started to show up? People would just go off on people because they were too stupid to RTFM on anything.

Edit - When you are new, you don't know where to look for any type of manual. Let's not forget that linux documentation isn't very good. There are a few places that have good documentation, but it feels incomplete. Also, when you are new you don't even know that man pages exist. By the way, man pages are horribly written most of the time.

oldsoundguy
March 7th, 2010, 11:50 PM
This is a bad attitude to take towards potential new users. The whole RTFM thing is one of the reason why people hated Linux users originally. Heck, were you around for the hate that came when easier to install distros started to show up? People would just go off on people because they were too stupid to RTFM on anything.

Wrong interpretation
Meant to imply that those that do not RTFM on ANYTHING and expect someone to lead them by the hand are usually those that complain the loudest!
The system as it is right now requires very little in the way of reading to figure it out .. the menus are obvious and the quick start guide is now there to aid for those that have problems connecting the dots.
I have been using Linux since Mandrake 4 and moved to Ubuntu 6.04 and have not looked back.
One of the primary reasons was that this forum was NOT founded on RTFM or snooty geeks with attitude.

If you have a question about Ubuntu, these forums are the answer .. PROVIDED you have enough sense to ASK the question instead of screaming about how bad the system is and expect help.

Said many a time here .. Linux is NOT Windows .. don't expect it to work like Windows (when Windows DOES work.)

And MOST of the issues have absolutely NOTHING to do with the kernel .. the "why can't I get my game to run?" type of issue. Or problems with laptop hardware such as the biggest offender, Broadcom. Broadcom changes it's architecture as often as I change my sox .. really hard to keep up with those clowns.

Frak
March 8th, 2010, 12:05 AM
Wrong interpretation
Meant to imply that those that do not RTFM on ANYTHING and expect someone to lead them by the hand are usually those that complain the loudest!
The system as it is right now requires very little in the way of reading to figure it out .. the menus are obvious and the quick start guide is now there to aid for those that have problems connecting the dots.
I have been using Linux since Mandrake 4 and moved to Ubuntu 6.04 and have not looked back.
One of the primary reasons was that this forum was NOT founded on RTFM or snooty geeks with attitude.

If you have a question about Ubuntu, these forums are the answer .. PROVIDED you have enough sense to ASK the question instead of screaming about how bad the system is and expect help.

Said many a time here .. Linux is NOT Windows .. don't expect it to work like Windows (when Windows DOES work.)

And MOST of the issues have absolutely NOTHING to do with the kernel .. the "why can't I get my game to run?" type of issue. Or problems with laptop hardware such as the biggest offender, Broadcom. Broadcom changes it's architecture as often as I change my sox .. really hard to keep up with those clowns.
My video doesn't work: Come to the forums, complain that Linux doesn't work right and get help. When you get help, it is usually in the form of a console command. These commands intimidate users, period.

Wireless doesn't work. They boot into Windows, and it works fine. They ask a question on the forums and get the "Hardware manufacturer doesn't support Linux" speech. The user doesn't care, and will most likely still put the fault at the developers. They don't want a lecture, they want a solution.

When you come from a system where everything works (Windows or OS X) to a system that works most of the time between coffee breaks (Ubuntu), there's a lot of blame that can be placed on Ubuntu's shoulders, misguided or otherwise. It's not because it absolutely is Ubuntu, or RedHat, or Linux's fault, it's because there's nowhere else to put the blame. A user doesn't want to admit that their hardware is made by a bad company. Why would you want to devalue your own purchase? They don't want to blame the people that made the application, why would you want to devalue your own purchase? People will blame something that is not attached to them, in this case, anything Linux or Open Source will do.

J_Stanton
March 8th, 2010, 12:07 AM
moved to Ubuntu 6.04 and have not looked back. ubuntu 6.04 does not exist.

23meg
March 8th, 2010, 12:36 AM
I am also a programmer myself so I am not some rambling idiot but it's near on impossible to have the discussion as large amounts of the community are so emotionally invested in Linux and see criticisms of the code as criticisms of the FOSS ideology.

This is another example of the distinction between the community of contributors and the much broader sphere (not "community") of users, fans and haters (http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=8921812&postcount=82) being missed.

If you had the kind of technical knowledge which let you put your finger on what's wrong and how to fix it, and the social skills which let you voice them in the correct place in a constructive manner (and as opposed to how it's usually interpreted, constructive can also mean destructive at times; you may not be able to construct without pulling some things down and stepping on some toes), the chances that you'd be positively received by the core contributors and be able to bring actual chance are infinitely larger than the chances of your criticism being well received by users, fans and haters in a web forum. And even if you were negatively received initially by the core group (which would almost certainly be on technical terms, not in the chauvinistic terms of fanhood) your code (if it's significant) would find uses in other hands, be refined, branched, whatever, and live on, as long as it fulfils a real need somewhere. For varied yet concrete examples of the latter, look up the Compiz++ saga, the history of X, Unladen Swallow vs. Python, and the fall of HAL.

Haters and fans are alike in that despite their loudness, they have a ridiculously small influence on where things actually head. If you manage to ignore both groups, and strike the actual issues at the heart, you'll be fine.

katie-xx
March 8th, 2010, 12:37 AM
They don't want a lecture, they want a solution.


OMG .... Im going to use that one on my boss tomorrow :)
The best quote ever
Thanks

Kate

Meep3D
March 8th, 2010, 12:39 AM
I have read many of the posts to this thread and have come to the conclusion that the majority of the Linux bashers are the type of individuals that can not RTFM on ANYTHING. They are admitting in an open forum that that have no clue about the system and don't have enough brains or patience to figure it out! They need mommie to spoon feed them!

It is just an OPERATING SYSTEM, for cripes sakes! It just is a system that makes your computer RUN. And for that, it does well for the MAJORITY of those that decide they have enough gray matter to take the few minutes it DOES take to figure things out.

Right now, takes about as much to learn the basics of Linux as it does for Apple.

Ahhh the good old RTFM. Someone tries Linux, has problems, meets someone like you and transforms into a 'hater' rather than a productive member of the community. Refusing to acknowlege that someones issues are valid (and instead questioning their intelligence) is just going to make them go somewhere else to something that actually fits their needs. Expecting someone to understand something (And something as complicated as Linux) 100% before they are allowed to comment and critisise?

Why are you not still using Mandrake 4? I am assuming that you are using a more recent distro? If, as you like to imply, that the complainers are just idiots who haven't RTFM then how can you justify upgrading youself? If complainers have no point then how can improvements possibly be made?

I've seen people like you for almost a decade. If you were to give a modern day computer user a PC with Mandrake 4 on it how well would they fare? How well would it cope with their needs? Yet almost ten years ago you'd see the same tired arguments of how because Linux didn't fit someones needs they were an idiot troll who needed to RTFM and the problem was with them, not Linux.

Your logic only holds if the needs of all users are identical and there is no progression and improvement in the world of Linux. Since neither are the case then you are obviously wrong.

katie-xx
March 8th, 2010, 01:06 AM
Guys..
It isnt good to argue and fight about the merits of one system over another.

I have to do a lot of work with Microsoft Systems because the main over arching standard for real time data
acquisition currently requires Windows to run on. Yes we can interface with embedded systems running bare metal or running cut down nix or whatever. But the open standard which pulls it all together runs on Windows.

Now, when I get home, I like to play around with Linux systems because I can reconfigure, occasionally alter and amend. etc, etc.

Other people I guess use systems in a whole lot of different ways.

Now today ive messed a system up by downloading some poor quality code and compiling and installing it on my machine. My fault, Im a big girl, but its annoying I did it.
Tomorrow I will have that system replaced with a fresh install.

Get my drift?

They are just operating systems. Use them as you wish.Make a living, enjoy, learn and be happy :)

Just operating systems

Kate

Meep3D
March 8th, 2010, 01:10 AM
This is another example of the distinction between the community of contributors and the much broader sphere (not "community") of users, fans and haters (http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=8921812&postcount=82) being missed.

If you had the kind of technical knowledge which let you put your finger on what's wrong and how to fix it, and the social skills which let you voice them in the correct place in a constructive manner (and as opposed to how it's usually interpreted, constructive can also mean destructive at times; you may not be able to construct without pulling some things down and stepping on some toes), the chances that you'd be positively received by the core contributors and be able to bring actual chance are infinitely larger than the chances of your criticism being well received by users, fans and haters in a web forum. And even if you were negatively received initially by the core group (which would almost certainly be on technical terms, not in the chauvinistic terms of fanhood) your code (if it's significant) would find uses in other hands, be refined, branched, whatever, and live on, as long as it fulfils a real need somewhere. For varied yet concrete examples of the latter, look up the Compiz++ saga, the history of X, Unladen Swallow vs. Python, and the fall of HAL.

Haters and fans are alike in that despite their loudness, they have a ridiculously small influence on where things actually head. If you manage to ignore both groups, and strike the actual issues at the heart, you'll be fine.

My main issues are with look + feel (and usability as a whole). From what I can see (and have been told repeatedly) is that it is a meritocracy - if you want it, code it. Otherwise be quiet. Rather than well considered decisions made by people with the knowlege and experience, decisions are made by whomever has CVS check-in permissions. Take the new (apparently arbitary) changes to the default WM controls (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1423076). It's a terrible idea for so many reasons.

I've tried to get involved from a non-programming point of view multiple times, I even heeded the fundamentally disappointing call for designers a few years back (I am ok, not great) but it was made clear that unless you coded up an actual working theme you may as well not bother. The amount of amazing ideas I saw slip past in that was huge and here we are today, still talking about the 'amazing new theme' that's being worked upon.

I am subscribed to multiple mailing lists that cover topics such as usability and design and nothing of substance is ever really discussed - the Gnome Usability list has less posts than your average blog. I have no idea where the actual discussion on the planning of such things goes on - behind closed doors mainly?

I worked in an internet cafe for about 4 years, spending hours every day helping, teaching and also learning how users think. It completely changed my perspective on development and UI design but short of forking Gnome (or Ubuntu) personally there's pretty much nothing I can do. I have always been led to believe that it was 'community developed', but more and more it seems like it is 'clique developed' which is quite frankly very disappointing.

katie-xx
March 8th, 2010, 01:28 AM
Dear Meep

Im sure you have valid points here but ,unfortunately, cant understand what you are getting at.
Im a programmer, albeit not on Linux systems, but I cant understand what you are saying.
Im guessing this is a cultural thing ..are u from USA?
It would be great if you could put this into culture neutral language so we could all understand it. Im sure its good argument and worth reading

Kate


My main issues are with look + feel (and usability as a whole). From what I can see (and have been told repeatedly) is that it is a meritocracy - if you want it, code it. Otherwise be quiet. Rather than well considered decisions made by people with the knowlege and experience, decisions are made by whomever has CVS check-in permissions. Take the new (apparently arbitary) changes to the default WM controls (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1423076). It's a terrible idea for so many reasons.

I've tried to get involved from a non-programming point of view multiple times, I even heeded the fundamentally disappointing call for designers a few years back (I am ok, not great) but it was made clear that unless you coded up an actual working theme you may as well not bother. The amount of amazing ideas I saw slip past in that was huge and here we are today, still talking about the 'amazing new theme' that's being worked upon.

I am subscribed to multiple mailing lists that cover topics such as usability and design and nothing of substance is ever really discussed - the Gnome Usability list has less posts than your average blog. I have no idea where the actual discussion on the planning of such things goes on - behind closed doors mainly?

I worked in an internet cafe for about 4 years, spending hours every day helping, teaching and also learning how users think. It completely changed my perspective on development and UI design but short of forking Gnome (or Ubuntu) personally there's pretty much nothing I can do. I have always been led to believe that it was 'community developed', but more and more it seems like it is 'clique developed' which is quite frankly very disappointing.

aklo
March 8th, 2010, 01:38 AM
I don't hate linux but there are things to be improved because some programs don't work out of the box...even for those that work natively on linux.

I've tried downloading one of the more popular mmorpg for linux not sure what the name is called. I downloaded the file and extract it. I was expecting for it to work since it works natively on linux but what after extracting the file, i'm stuck i have no idea what to do.

America's Army 2.5 also don't work for me. Installed it but when i clicked on the icon, nothing happen. Search for solutions to install some dependencies also came to null. It says that the dependencies had been dropped/not found(something like that)

Also we need a universal extension for all executables for linux. Why do we have some programs that comes in compressed format(tar, bz2) ...in the end we have to extract it and find ways to install it ourselves. Some programs even require me to compile it myself? What the heck?? All i want is double click install and play!
The .deb extension is good. Hopefully every single piece of software come in that extension since it works closes to a .exe (double click install)

Despite having problems with those, i've been on ubuntu 9.10 for 3months and i have no other major problems that pissed me off except for the above mentioned software.

Post Monkeh
March 8th, 2010, 02:02 AM
What the heck?? All i want is double click install and play!


without wanting to sound like one of the people getting slated - if that's your attitude then linux maybe isn't for you.
i may be wrong, but i can't ever see it getting to s stage where EVERYTHING is packaged into a single double-clickable file. at the minute, the majority of programs are, but if you want the very newest versions of some programs sometimes you have to compile from source. it sounds worse than it is, any program i've had to compile has come with an easy to follow readme file and the process takes less than 5 minutes most of the time.

yester64
March 8th, 2010, 02:52 AM
My video doesn't work: Come to the forums, complain that Linux doesn't work right and get help. When you get help, it is usually in the form of a console command. These commands intimidate users, period.

Wireless doesn't work. They boot into Windows, and it works fine. They ask a question on the forums and get the "Hardware manufacturer doesn't support Linux" speech. The user doesn't care, and will most likely still put the fault at the developers. They don't want a lecture, they want a solution.

When you come from a system where everything works (Windows or OS X) to a system that works most of the time between coffee breaks (Ubuntu), there's a lot of blame that can be placed on Ubuntu's shoulders, misguided or otherwise. It's not because it absolutely is Ubuntu, or RedHat, or Linux's fault, it's because there's nowhere else to put the blame. A user doesn't want to admit that their hardware is made by a bad company. Why would you want to devalue your own purchase? They don't want to blame the people that made the application, why would you want to devalue your own purchase? People will blame something that is not attached to them, in this case, anything Linux or Open Source will do.

Need to love you know \\:D/

chillicampari
March 8th, 2010, 04:18 AM
Dear Meep

Im sure you have valid points here but ,unfortunately, cant understand what you are getting at.
Im a programmer, albeit not on Linux systems, but I cant understand what you are saying.
Im guessing this is a cultural thing ..are u from USA?
It would be great if you could put this into culture neutral language so we could all understand it. Im sure its good argument and worth reading

Kate

It is a good argument and worth reading.

I may be biased as I speak in American English, and while there is a cultural difference in the post, I think it has more to do with time and experience vs. the variations between UK and American English language nuances. Meaning, if you get involved in more than a periphery level and stick with it, then reread that post in a couple of years or so it will probably make a lot more sense. Which is not to sound exclusionary at all as they were responding to 23meg so that post really didn't need to be tailored for a general audience.

ndefontenay
March 8th, 2010, 04:42 AM
Guys,

Stop the arguing. What we need is somebody explaining nicely how things works (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFqj2hS_0iQ):

I'm prtty sure that all haters will re-consider.

No offense Katie. I'm sure you got the skills to do it as well if that's your picture in the profile but we need your brain much more.

mickie.kext
March 8th, 2010, 06:26 AM
User Frak is normally on my ignore list, by I saw this being qouted and I decided to reply:

My video doesn't work: Come to the forums, complain that Linux doesn't work right and get help. When you get help, it is usually in the form of a console command. These commands intimidate users, period.

Wireless doesn't work. They boot into Windows, and it works fine. They ask a question on the forums and get the "Hardware manufacturer doesn't support Linux" speech. The user doesn't care, and will most likely still put the fault at the developers. They don't want a lecture, they want a solution.

When you come from a system where everything works (Windows or OS X) to a system that works most of the time between coffee breaks (Ubuntu), there's a lot of blame that can be placed on Ubuntu's shoulders, misguided or otherwise. It's not because it absolutely is Ubuntu, or RedHat, or Linux's fault, it's because there's nowhere else to put the blame. A user doesn't want to admit that their hardware is made by a bad company. Why would you want to devalue your own purchase? They don't want to blame the people that made the application, why would you want to devalue your own purchase? People will blame something that is not attached to them, in this case, anything Linux or Open Source will do.


This bold invalidates your entire argument. "Everything works" and "Windows" can not be but in same sentence. There is all kind of problems with Windows.


If ordinary know-nothing user gets in problem with Windows, he will be recommended to install some obscure utility program (like registry cleaners and such) which can cost money or have limited period of use (usually 30 days). Or he would be recommended to regedit. That also scares users.

And when that regedit fail, he would just must reinstall Windows. And he would lose data in the process because he never installed an OS before (since he his computer come with Windows) and do not know that data should be backed up offten. And he will blame Bill Gates and evil Microsoft for his loss of data just because there is nobody else to blame. For all he knows, Windows stooped working and ate all data. He eventually manage to install Windows somehow, but now some of his hardware is not recognized out of the box and and he might not know how to get it working, especialy if that hardware is NIC he uses to connect to internet. He gives up and starts looking for alternative.

Enter Linux. Same user obtains Ubuntu CD from a friend, and installs it same way he managed to install windows. Except, Linux happens to recognizes all hardware out of the box. Later, he gets in some problem Linux, but he Google for easy fix or ask on forum. He will usually get terminal command (because it is quicker than GUI), but he will get solution to his problem.


And then he will come to Ubuntu forums to share his unpleasant experience with Windows and say how he found Ubuntu much more intuitive and easy to use than Windows.

But while most people welcome him, some people call him a "zealot" and flame him for saying that Ubuntu is better than Windows. He see obvious polarization between normal Ubuntu users and those who came just to bash and degrade Linux. And then he starts defending Ubuntu because he does not want to "devalue his purchase" especially not with all those haters around who (for all he knows) seem to want just to prove his choice as bad one and prove that he should go back to Windows.

So lets call thing with right name. We are talking about Linux enthusiasts and Linux haters. We are witnessing that on Ubuntu forums, a place where Linux enthusiasm should be normal thing, Linux enthusiasts are being branded as zealots... by Linux haters.

NightwishFan
March 8th, 2010, 06:32 AM
Windows has it's good points as well. I am grown up now (in terms of behavior) and the most I do is poke fun at it for using 1 gb of ram out of the box. (until trimmed down). That is fine, that is what it is designed for, high end desktops/laptops. Microsoft wants to drive their business in a specific way, and I can help others use Windows or Linux. Zealotry makes me tired out. Too little time to discriminate like that.

KiwiNZ
March 8th, 2010, 06:50 AM
User Frak is normally on my ignore list, by I saw this being qouted and I decided to reply:


This bold invalidates your entire argument. "Everything works" and "Windows" can not be but in same sentence. There is all kind of problems with Windows.


If ordinary know-nothing user gets in problem with Windows, he will be recommended to install some obscure utility program (like registry cleaners and such) which can cost money or have limited period of use (usually 30 days). Or he would be recommended to regedit. That also scares users.

And when that regedit fail, he would just must reinstall Windows. And he would lose data in the process because he never installed an OS before (since he his computer come with Windows) and do not know that data should be backed up offten. And he will blame Bill Gates and evil Microsoft for his loss of data just because there is nobody else to blame. For all he knows, Windows stooped working and ate all data. He eventually manage to install Windows somehow, but now some of his hardware is not recognized out of the box and and he might not know how to get it working, especialy if that hardware is NIC he uses to connect to internet. He gives up and starts looking for alternative.

Enter Linux. Same user obtains Ubuntu CD from a friend, and installs it same way he managed to install windows. Except, Linux happens to recognizes all hardware out of the box. Later, he gets in some problem Linux, but he Google for easy fix or ask on forum. He will usually get terminal command (because it is quicker than GUI), but he will get solution to his problem.


And then he will come to Ubuntu forums to share his unpleasant experience with Windows and say how he found Ubuntu much more intuitive and easy to use than Windows.

But while most people welcome him, some people call him a "zealot" and flame him for saying that Ubuntu is better than Windows. He see obvious polarization between normal Ubuntu users and those who came just to bash and degrade Linux. And then he starts defending Ubuntu because he does not want to "devalue his purchase" especially not with all those haters around who (for all he knows) seem to want just to prove his choice as bad one and prove that he should go back to Windows.

So lets call thing with right name. We are talking about Linux enthusiasts and Linux haters. We are witnessing that on Ubuntu forums, a place where Linux enthusiasm should be normal thing, Linux enthusiasts are being branded as zealots... by Linux haters.

This post is an example of the type of post that can generate the extremes of views from both camps.
These need to stop.:rolleyes:

DeadSuperHero
March 8th, 2010, 06:51 AM
This bold invalidates your entire argument. "Everything works" and "Windows" can not be but in same sentence. There is all kind of problems with Windows.


I think what Frak was getting at was not necessarily Windows being "better" or "eaiser" than Ubuntu (which is a subjective point anyways), I think what he meant was that for a large majority of the population, Windows is a familiar paradigm and platform. It powers large corporations all over the globe, is used in schools, and is on about 90% of all laptops and desktop machines. Sure, users can choose to use Linux on their hardware, but with the plethora of distributions out there, it is hard to just pinpoint what works for one person and what doesn't work for another. Combine that with the vast amounts of PC configurations out there, and it can definitely be quite a mess for someone trying out Linux for the first time.

Things are done differently with Linux, and Ubuntu is no exception. While Ubuntu (and conversely Gnome) has made huge strides in usability, some things are not the most obvious to users. When I started using Ubuntu with Edgy, setting up wireless was a downright nightmare! I was so used to the way Windows looked and felt that the whole of Linux felt alien to me at the time.

Sure, Windows has problems. So does MacOS. So does Linux. Even the venerable AmigaOS has horrific problems.

Saying that "everything works" in Windows translates to "everything works well enough" or "everything works the way I'm used to". It is when they try a linux distribution and something breaks that they immediately ditch everything and go back to Windows sometimes.

23meg
March 8th, 2010, 07:00 AM
I do see where some of your experiences of frustration come from, and actually share part of them, especially those regarding participating in free software projects as a non-programmer, but don't really agree with your conclusions.


My main issues are with look + feel (and usability as a whole). From what I can see (and have been told repeatedly) is that it is a meritocracy - if you want it, code it. Otherwise be quiet. Rather than well considered decisions made by people with the knowlege and experience, decisions are made by whomever has CVS check-in permissions.

But then, who has version control access, or who manages releases, is dictated by none other than merit and trust, with small unfortunate exceptions. People aren't born with commit access; they gain it by demonstrating their merit.

Surely it's a meritocracy, where originally merit equaled code, with no alternative, but that's changing, albeit slowly; abilities in documentation, design, advocacy being recognized on equal terms with code is not the alien idea that it was a decade or so ago today.


I've tried to get involved from a non-programming point of view multiple times, I even heeded the fundamentally disappointing call for designers a few years back (I am ok, not great) but it was made clear that unless you coded up an actual working theme you may as well not bother. The amount of amazing ideas I saw slip past in that was huge and here we are today, still talking about the 'amazing new theme' that's being worked upon.

Having closely observed the Ubuntu "art" history of recurring instances of mockup > cheers > another mockup > more cheers > initial non-working prototype > no code > realization that it was a blue sky idea > huge frustration > next blue sky mockup > .. , I strongly suspect most, if not all of the ideas that you saw slip by were entirely unfeasible technically.

Ideas without a reality check, without implementation, are cheap. Until there's a concrete, realistic blueprint for their execution, and their merit is demonstrated with prototypes, "ideas" are all talk.


I am subscribed to multiple mailing lists that cover topics such as usability and design and nothing of substance is ever really discussed - the Gnome Usability list has less posts than your average blog. I have no idea where the actual discussion on the planning of such things goes on - behind closed doors mainly?

For Ubuntu-specific matters, you may want to subscribe to ayatana-discussion and ubuntu-art, and follow up or even attend (remotely or in person) Ubuntu development summits, where there's been lots of high-bandwidth usability and design discussion lately. IRC is also commonly used, both in GNOME and Ubuntu.

gnome-usability, which as you say isn't normally very high-traffic, actually saw a sudden increase in traffic over the last couple weeks, largely due to the London usability hackfest hosted by Canonical; and if you read Planet GNOME, there's no way you could have missed the dozens of extremely detailed posts summarizing that event, which were really informative and sparked lots of good discussion with non-attendees.

In short, unlike you, I honestly haven't had a "closed doors" experience in the usability field.


I worked in an internet cafe for about 4 years, spending hours every day helping, teaching and also learning how users think. It completely changed my perspective on development and UI design but short of forking Gnome (or Ubuntu) personally there's pretty much nothing I can do. I have always been led to believe that it was 'community developed', but more and more it seems like it is 'clique developed' which is quite frankly very disappointing.

I'm not sure what makes you fundamentally dismissive of the current state of GNOME / Ubuntu to the point that your only hope is a fork, since I'm not familiar with your specific insights, and negative experiences of disagreement, but on the topic of "how users think": if you were to develop the skills to perform ad-hoc usability testing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usability_testing), do a good deal of it and share your results, I don't think it's going to be received negatively, either in a GNOME module, or Ubuntu.

ndefontenay
March 8th, 2010, 07:20 AM
I think what is meant is that there's an assymetrical perspective between windows and Linux from the point of users.
Windows having a better position than Linux.

The reason is as follow:

1) User A has a windows box. It breaks. User A has no idea of any over OSs. He ask for support, he might get the difficult regegit issues. he might loose everything. He will curse Microsoft and Windows but take it as fate and keeps using it. He doesn't know any better

2) User B has a windows box. It breaks. Somebody mentioned Linux. He installs it. It breaks too. Now because his comfort zone is in windows and at least he understands the terms there, he forget quickly that he was on linux in the first place because Windows broke on him. He curses Linux and blame everything on it.

Perception matters and Linux doesn't sit in a good light when it comes to that.

It's just the natural way of how things happens that makes it that way. Linux is simply not the most commonly used OS. If it's not then maybe it's not good? Then if I've been recommended to it and it breaks, I'm right to suppose it's not good.

For this thread to be useful, We have to ask ourselves how we can change that perception and apply it.

Linuxforall
March 8th, 2010, 07:45 AM
As desktop Linux will keep getting popular and more widespread, this will only increase. FUD is the hater's biggest weapon. There are those on various security forum who spread the theory that Linux is only safe because its low in numbers. They will totally ignore and even sidestep the fact that Linux is used in most mission critical servers around and is the dominant force for web server, embedded OS, VLSI etc. When it comes to knowledge in depth about workings of UNIX or Linux, they have only superficial and not in depth. They will usually take facets about Unix in negative terms written by other Linux hating blogs or sites and then keep posting them over and over again. Then there is the I have used Linux types, those are the worse, some of them have used Linux but with expectations of Linux being a Windows clone, these folks tend to be the earliest ones with frustrations and also the most vociferous about it. Of course, the average Linux hater's biggest target is of course Ubuntu which has truly put desktop Linux where it is today. Most of the attacks are against Linux and strangely even from so called dedicated Linux users. Most call it slow when time and again, benchmarks done at Phoronix and elsewhere has shown Ubuntu holding its own against the so called perceived fast distros. Its only gonna get worse as Ubuntu and other distros like Fedora and SuSE keeps climbing the ladder, recently there was a lobby in US trying to get Open Source declared as piracy, things like this is going to happen far more frequently now that countries like India and China along with continents like Africa and Europe start adapting Linux in good numbers.

NightwishFan
March 8th, 2010, 07:46 AM
Ubuntu is fast, very fast, just not conservative. That can be solved with minimal install of course.

Frak
March 8th, 2010, 07:53 AM
This bold invalidates your entire argument. "Everything works" and "Windows" can not be but in same sentence. There is all kind of problems with Windows.

To your average "Facebook, Email, and Myspace plz" folk, they're more likely to perceive Windows of a higher calibre than Linux. Think if you knew nothing about televisions or gaming consoles and you hopped down to your store to get a Wii. People are raving about it left and right, and you want to try it out too. And they're handing it out for free because this is a purely hypothetical situation. You come home to your 20+ year old tele and try to connect it. You find that it needs HDMI to operate (purely hypothetical), but you have no idea what this plug is (again, you know nothing about televisions or gaming consoles). Would you:

A) Go to the store and buy X, Y, and Z adaptors, only to find that the console still may not work with your tele due to your hardware.
or

B) Toss it out the door, call it rubbish, and get on with your life.

Chances are, in this purely hypothetical situation, you'd choose B. You've never had to deal with a game console before (hypothetical), nor have you ever came to the conclusion where you needed one. You don't want to shell out cash for something you got for free, and may end up an upside down investment (HYPOTHETICAL). Foremost, you do not want to admit that your super expensive (H-Y-P-O-T-H-E-T-I-C-A-L) 20+ year old TV is a pile of rubbish. You put a large investment into it, and it works fine for what you use it for.


Also, you're still on my ignore list. All you ever try to do is refute my argument based on the fact that I posted them. I thought I'd post a response here since I saw KiwiNZ quote it.

cariboo
March 8th, 2010, 08:44 AM
Chances are if you are a typical consumer, you are going to trash your 20 year old TV and go buy a shiny new LCD/Plasma TV just like the rest of your friends have already done.

The Facebook, Myspace and email folk, only want things to work they really don't know or care what an operating system is.

Brand loyalty whether it is Honda or Toyota, Ford or Chevrolet or Linux versus Windows, has more to do with ego and peer pressure rather than technical merit. It is a part of our lives and always will be.

Frak
March 8th, 2010, 08:49 AM
Chances are if you are a typical consumer, you are going to trash your 20 year old TV and go buy a shiny new LCD/Plasma TV just like the rest of your friends have already done.

It was done for the sake of stating differentiating hardware. My TV is different than my friends TV. It works on his, doesn't work on mine, must be a piece of crap.

Also, that whole "Doesn't know anything about televisions or game consoles".

Meep3D
March 8th, 2010, 11:41 AM
Having closely observed the Ubuntu "art" history of recurring instances of mockup > cheers > another mockup > more cheers > initial non-working prototype > no code > realization that it was a blue sky idea > huge frustration > next blue sky mockup > .. , I strongly suspect most, if not all of the ideas that you saw slip by were entirely unfeasible technically.

Ideas without a reality check, without implementation, are cheap. Until there's a concrete, realistic blueprint for their execution, and their merit is demonstrated with prototypes, "ideas" are all talk.

My problem with the whole thing was the seeming lack of anyone officiating the process. What was needed was someone official to say 'this isn't what we are looking for', 'the is good but...'. It was billed as a 'call to arms', but what it really was was a 'theme competition'. I never received any official feedback at all on anything I did and while there were a few moderator class people there none of them had any say in the actual theme process (their roles seemed entirely crowd control).

When I pitch an idea to a client (usually as a rough mockup) I generally expect a 'Yes, Yes but, No or No but'. I would rarely invest time in polish before the client had signed off on the basic design. I was trying to contribute and get involved, I didn't even particularly want any credit, hell a straight up "no, don't like it" would have been fine - at least then I could try again from a different angle. It's very hard to summon the motivation to fully develop an idea (including implementation) if you have no guarantees it'll ever be even looked at. Again the whole thing was billed as aiming to include the non-developer designers - exactly the sort of people who would not be able to move past a non-functional mockup.

While half of the suggestions were pie-in-the-sky UI ideas (with some actually interesting concepts and discussions) the other half was legitimate design ideas, quite a few of which showed promise but Canonical never actually set an agenda, provided requirements or any form of critique of anything. It's obvious it's not going to go anywhere if there is nobody in charge and nobody making any decions. You could have had Jonathan Ive show up and I'd still be seriously doubtful that it would have gone anywhere.


gnome-usability, which as you say isn't normally very high-traffic, actually saw a sudden increase in traffic over the last couple weeks, largely due to the London usability hackfest hosted by Canonical; and if you read Planet GNOME, there's no way you could have missed the dozens of extremely detailed posts summarizing that event, which were really informative and sparked lots of good discussion with non-attendees.
I've never read Planet Gnome - maybe I will. I was aware of the hackfest (and live just outside London) but was simply too busy to be able to go.


In short, unlike you, I honestly haven't had a "closed doors" experience in the usability field.

I'm not sure what makes you fundamentally dismissive of the current state of GNOME / Ubuntu to the point that your only hope is a fork, since I'm not familiar with your specific insights, and negative experiences of disagreement, but on the topic of "how users think": if you were to develop the skills to perform ad-hoc usability testing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usability_testing), do a good deal of it and share your results, I don't think it's going to be received negatively, either in a GNOME module, or Ubuntu.
I tried that many years ago actually, set up half a dozen machines and let people use them and observed and helped, then posted my results here. It just led to a legendary flamewar as the overly defensive community members 'debunked' what I claimed were problems (most of which have now been addressed).

I'll write a detailed 'what I think is wrong' article at some point - probably on a 'hater' blog for safetys sake. :)

XubuRoxMySox
March 8th, 2010, 12:31 PM
No OS is "the best" except the one that is best for that particular user. And it takes time to discover what is best for each user, because each user has his or her own needs and preferences.

Some OSes try to be "all things to all users," a one-size-fits-most sorta thing. They are the ones that are especially troublesome I think (Windows, Mac, Ubuntu, Fedora, etc). The more "specialized" the OS for a particular use or user group, the less troublesome it seems to be.

That's why I created my li'l questionnaire (http://robinzrants.wordpress.com/2010/02/12/another-computer-saved-from-the-landfill/) for people who want to explore Linux (whether they want to change from Windows or Mac, or whether they're just curious). Now that I know just a little more than the average newbie (it's been a year and I'm a slow learner), I can use the answers to customize a Linux mixture just for that person which will hopefully make their first experience a more positive one.

I don't make outrageous, absurd claims about Linux. But I also don't hesitate to say why I like it so much, and why I switched from Windows. As long as we can avoid fanaticism and until the "one-size-fits-most" thing evens out a little bit, there are certainly ways to avoid fomenting "hate" in new users. I would offer this advice to enthusiastic Linux "zealots:" Learn before you "evangelize," and aim to customize a Linux mixture for each prospective "convert" rather than shoving your favorite "one-size-fits-all" OS in people's faces.

-Robin

Post Monkeh
March 8th, 2010, 12:35 PM
This bold invalidates your entire argument. "Everything works" and "Windows" can not be but in same sentence. There is all kind of problems with Windows.



every piece of hardware works on windows. every piece of hardware is DESIGNED to work on windows. you may have to install extra drivers, but at least there ARE drivers. the same cannot always be said of linux, no matter how much we'd like to be able to say it.

fewt
March 8th, 2010, 12:47 PM
Brand loyalty whether it is Honda or Toyota, Ford or Chevrolet or Linux versus Windows, has more to do with ego and peer pressure rather than technical merit. It is a part of our lives and always will be.

I can give a few examples of Ford being better than Toyota. People (including myself) don't drive Fords because of egos or peer pressure, they drive them for what you would consider "technical merit".

Quality, Cost, Capability .. Better Faster Cheaper .. pick any two.

If I was going to buy a vehicle strictly on ego or peer pressure it surely wouldn't be any of those brands you listed.

Sorry to have destroyed your argument there.

koshatnik
March 8th, 2010, 12:53 PM
I can give a few examples of Ford being better than Toyota. People (including myself) don't drive Fords because of egos or peer pressure, they drive them for what you would consider "technical merit".

Quality, Cost, Capability .. Better Faster Cheaper .. pick any two.

If I was going to buy a vehicle strictly on ego or peer pressure it surely wouldn't be any of those brands you listed.

Sorry to have destroyed your argument there.

That's your experience, not a fact.

Sorry to have destroyed your argument there.

I'm still amazed that people have the time and energy to give a crap about this sort of thing.

Post Monkeh
March 8th, 2010, 12:54 PM
That's your experience, not a fact.

Sorry to have destroyed your argument there.

I'm still amazed that people have the time and energy to give a crap about this sort of thing.

wrong.

sorry to have destroyed your argument there.

fewt
March 8th, 2010, 12:56 PM
That's your experience, not a fact.

Sorry to have destroyed your argument there.

I'm still amazed that people have the time and energy to give a crap about this sort of thing.

I'm sorry, you find me someone that's driving any of the above because they have a big head.

It's not an experience, I'd love to see someone post "I drive a camry because it just makes me look more awesome to my friends".

mmkaythx

fewt
March 8th, 2010, 01:00 PM
Brand loyalty whether it is Honda or Toyota, Ford or Chevrolet or Linux versus Windows, has more to do with ego and peer pressure rather than technical merit. It is a part of our lives and always will be.

I bet you drive a civic because it makes you look cool, is this you?

http://www.streetfire.net/video/Stock-GT-46-Stang-Vs-out_7770.htm

:P

XubuRoxMySox
March 8th, 2010, 01:01 PM
I'd love to see someone post "I drive a camry because it just makes me look more awesome to my friends".


Okay. I use Crunchbang on a laptop because it's stark beauty and supercool Conky stuff makes me look smart and geeky to my friends! Really. And because I don't share the laptop and it doesn't have "anything to click on," my non-geeky friends are too intimidated to mess with it, lol!

-Robin

koshatnik
March 8th, 2010, 01:29 PM
I'm sorry, you find me someone that's driving any of the above because they have a big head.

It's not an experience, I'd love to see someone post "I drive a camry because it just makes me look more awesome to my friends".

mmkaythx

Now you're making assumptions.

Oh dear.

Tristam Green
March 8th, 2010, 01:44 PM
See, this is the kind of behavior I have a problem with.

1. User A is either persuaded to, or decides to, install some variant of Linux on his/her machine.

1a. User A, if persuaded to, was persuaded either under the pretense of "Windows sucks", "Linux is inherently more secure than Windows", or "Linux will help you free yourself from Microsoftian Tyranny".
2. If User A runs Linux and is lucky enough to get that magic concoction of hardware that it works 100% on, kudos to him, and to the Linux community as a whole, that guy's going to likely be pleased with it, and "spread the word".
3. However, if User A attempts to run Linux and experiences *any* of the following issues, he's going to begin to look for help in one of two areas. Either his friend who convinced him to try it, or a support forum, like UF, or Arch Forums, or Gentoo Forums (you get the idea).

3a. Graphics don't work as promised.
3b. Wireless network connections don't work as promised.
3c. Sound doesn't work as promised.
4. Now, if the person was persuaded to try Linux, and his friend doesn't have the answer, he'll go to Forums (UF, as an example), because *somewhere* in the (as of this writing) 10,000 active users *someone* must have an answer for him.

4a. If he posts his question, and doesn't get the answer he's satisfied with, he'll likely get angry, and post a nasty testimonial, and get told off about how he's a Shill.
4b. If he posts his question, and nobody is able to give him an answer at all, he'll get told *almost invariably* that he "gets what he paid for".
4c. If he posts his question, gets his answer, and then he asks why this wasn't fixed in the first place, he'll *again* get accused of spreading FUD.

Tell me, why is there only one scenario where User A ends up winning? And even then, it's by a fairly small margin?


*edit* yes. The following scenario can be applicable to any product, be it an Operating System, Automobile, Washer and Dryer, Toaster Oven, Television, brand of clothing, etc etc. ad infinitum.

mickie.kext
March 8th, 2010, 02:29 PM
every piece of hardware works on windows. every piece of hardware is DESIGNED to work on windows. you may have to install extra drivers, but at least there ARE drivers. the same cannot always be said of linux, no matter how much we'd like to be able to say it.

But that is not a point. Yeah, I can say that Windows has more IHV support and has more drivers. That is the truth. But truth is also that Linux has pretty big hardware support and that most computers can work with Linux. Point is that some people universally trash Linux just because it cant work on some computers. They ignore that it works on most computers and dismiss it just because it wont works on some. That is hardly being realistic. It is basically saying "look, this piece of hardware do not work of Linux, therefore Linux-is-not-desktop ready (whatever that term mean) and should die a horrible death". That is bashing with no reason. Hardware support is improving with every kernel release.




To your average "Facebook, Email, and Myspace plz" folk, they're more likely to perceive Windows of a higher calibre than Linux. Think if you knew nothing about televisions or gaming consoles and you hopped down to your store to get a Wii. People are raving about it left and right, and you want to try it out too. And they're handing it out for free because this is a purely hypothetical situation. You come home to your 20+ year old tele and try to connect it. You find that it needs HDMI to operate (purely hypothetical), but you have no idea what this plug is (again, you know nothing about televisions or gaming consoles). Would you:

A) Go to the store and buy X, Y, and Z adaptors, only to find that the console still may not work with your tele due to your hardware.
or

B) Toss it out the door, call it rubbish, and get on with your life.

Chances are, in this purely hypothetical situation, you'd choose B. You've never had to deal with a game console before (hypothetical), nor have you ever came to the conclusion where you needed one. You don't want to shell out cash for something you got for free, and may end up an upside down investment (HYPOTHETICAL). Foremost, you do not want to admit that your super expensive (H-Y-P-O-T-H-E-T-I-C-A-L) 20+ year old TV is a pile of rubbish. You put a large investment into it, and it works fine for what you use it for.


Also, you're still on my ignore list. All you ever try to do is refute my argument based on the fact that I posted them. I thought I'd post a response here since I saw KiwiNZ quote it.



Lets say you have a valid point here. There is still one problem with your argument: people who would do B) thing would get on with their life, like you said yourself. They would not go to console (Linux) forum and start a crusade against consoles(Linux) . They would just forget about consoles (Linux), no harm done. They would not waste their time bashing something they are not interested in. If someone recommend them to try again, they would probably say "no thanks" and refuse further discussion on that subject. No haters, no zealots, simple as that.

I usually reply on your post because I find it sneaky and misleading. You only point one side of the truth, one that you like and one that helps you in degrading Linux.


...It powers large corporations all over the globe...
See, that is omitting facts. Most corporations use Linux on their servers. Lot of cellphones and netbooks come with Linux. That is sneakiness I was talking about. You are talking like Linux has come from outer space and that no human being dares to touch it.
It is “nobody uses Linux so you should not too, even though it might work for you” kind of argument. That is what bothers me.



Sure, Windows has problems. So does MacOS. So does Linux. Even the venerable AmigaOS has horrific problems.

I did not say that Linux has no flaws. Every OS has flaws, Linux included.



This post is an example of the type of post that can generate the extremes of views from both camps.
These need to stop.:rolleyes:

I would like to know what in particular you do not like in my post? What should I avoid in future? I see a lot more extreme posts in this thread, for example this one (http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=8934157&postcount=193).

Tristam Green
March 8th, 2010, 02:37 PM
But that is not a point. Yeah, I can say that Windows has more IHV support and has more drivers. That is the truth. But truth is also that Linux has pretty big hardware support and that most computers can work with Linux. Point is that some people universally trash Linux just because it cant work on some computers. They ignore that it works on most computers and dismiss it just because it wont works on some. That is hardly being realistic. It is basically saying "look, this piece of hardware do not work of Linux, therefore Linux-is-not-desktop ready (whatever that term mean) and should die a horrible death". That is bashing with no reason. Hardware support is improving with every kernel release.

Nobody said it needs to die a horrible death. Saying it's not "desktop-ready" means it's still...not...for...everyone. Linux overall has made leaps and bounds in the past 15 years, nobody is denying that. However, anyone suggesting that Linux is a straight alternative to Windows is fooling themselves. It's still a very loose market with spotty support for all devices. I realize you can get the devices working, but while Plug-and-Play proper has been around since the mid-late 1990s, there are still loads of devices that require some fiddling with modprobe to get working in Linux. That is simply unacceptable.


I did not say that Linux has no flaws. Every OS has flaws, Linux included.

That certainly does not look like what you are writing in the first quote.

mickie.kext
March 8th, 2010, 02:47 PM
Nobody said it needs to die a horrible death. Saying it's not "desktop-ready" means it's still...not...for...everyone. Linux overall has made leaps and bounds in the past 15 years, nobody is denying that. However, anyone suggesting that Linux is a straight alternative to Windows is fooling themselves. It's still a very loose market with spotty support for all devices. I realize you can get the devices working, but while Plug-and-Play proper has been around since the mid-late 1990s, there are still loads of devices that require some fiddling with modprobe to get working in Linux. That is simply unacceptable.

There are a lot of device who requires additional drivers and lots of older devices do not have drivers for Windwos 7. Also, not all devices work with Mac. Is that mean that Windows 7 and Macs are not desktop ready? Desktop redyness is non-sensical term. You have to research before you pick devices, no OS is compatible with everything.

Even if Linux might not be for everyone, there is no excuse for people who try who say that nobody should use it. And you basically said that, just avoided to put it bluntly.

fewt
March 8th, 2010, 02:54 PM
Even if Linux might not be for everyone, there is no excuse for people who try who say that nobody should use it. And you basically said that, just avoided to put it bluntly.

He implied no such thing. Now you are making insane implications to support your nonsensical argument.

You can do research all day long before choosing hardware for Linux, that doesn't mean that it will still work in the future.

That's the primary issue with Linux drivers. If you would like a list of drivers that have suffered serious regressions, peruse launchpad.

Tristam Green
March 8th, 2010, 02:57 PM
There are a lot of device who requires additional drivers and lots of older devices do not have drivers for Windwos 7. Also, not all devices work with Mac. Is that mean that Windows 7 and Macs are not desktop ready? Desktop redyness is non-sensical term. You have to research before you pick devices, no OS is compatible with everything.

Even if Linux might not be for everyone, there is no excuse for people who try who say that nobody should use it. And you basically said that, just avoided to put it bluntly.

Suffice it to say that I don't normally deal with those who plug their ears and sing in order to avoid hearing words, but I'll take a stab at it today, most likely to my own detriment.

What part of my post did I say that "nobody" should try Linux. No progress is accomplished without trial-and-error, that's the very nature of progress. Saying that it's a straight and viable replacement, as it stands, for OSes like Windows or Mac OSX is fallacious at best. It's great for server architecture, for certain. Its desktop component is good for hobbyists still, and will remain as such until it does either one of two things: it locks-in with hardware specs like Mac OS, or it gets more people onboard to write drivers for a broader stroke of hardware. We both know the first won't happen because of people like rms, but perhaps the second one will happen. It's unlikely it will ever have the level of hardware support that Windows has because...let's face it; writing code for free takes time, and
doesn't pay the bills.

Also, comparing 15-year-old legacy hardware (I wonder if my Gravis Joystick will work in Win7 with a serial-to-usb adapter?) to currently-supported hardware is grasping at straws. The writers for the Free ATI drivers deemed that a whole subset of onboard graphics written not even three years ago was 'legacy' and would no longer be supported in Linux. Why? That makes zero sense. I have a laptop that can no longer run well on Linux unless I load an old driver for the graphics that came with it now. That makes no sense to me. A seven-year-old chipset? Maybe. A ten-year-old one? Definitely. But three?

ubunterooster
March 8th, 2010, 03:13 PM
Brand loyalty whether it is Honda or Toyota, Ford or Chevrolet or Linux versus Windows, has more to do with ego and peer pressure rather than technical merit. It is a part of our lives and always will be.

I understand "more" to be the emphasized word here. So I understand you are understanding that there are exceptions. Good.
I tend to be in an unusual condition which leaves "peer pressure" virtually [← emphasis on "virtually] out of the picture.
I was accidentally introduced to GNU/Linux by a person who introduced himself as a "macbrat" [← his wording]. During what he called an "attempted conversion" [again, his wording] I brought up the EULA [I dislike EULAs and take them seriously]. He got angry [his "attempted convesion" was failing miserably] and he said [to mock me] that I should be a Linux user. It fit in with what I thought software should be like. For me Linux is not just an OS, it's a freedom.
Still, I understand the choice others have to use or not use FOSS. I also understand the CoC to say I am not to badmouth others even if I disagree with them. The battle is self-control.

[OFF TOPIC] My father says "Stallman's a communist". My sister says "he looks like a caveman". I say "Thanks".
[END OFF TOPIC]

PS: I want a Ferrari!

fewt
March 8th, 2010, 03:23 PM
PS: I want a Ferrari!

Sorry, that just won't boost your ego.

Your choices are:

Honda or Toyota, Ford or Chevrolet

mickie.kext
March 8th, 2010, 03:34 PM
Its desktop component is good for hobbyists still, and will remain as such until it does either one of two things: it locks-in with hardware specs like Mac OS, or it gets more people onboard to write drivers for a broader stroke of hardware.

So how will Linux increase hardware support if it lock in hardware specs like Mac? Talking about nonsensical argument...

Second one is already happening. Lots of companies sponsor writing Linux drivers. It very much pays the bills. You can not sell piece of Enterprise hardware well if drivers for it are not in mainline Linux kernel. Hardware makers know that so they hire kernel devs. Most of those enterprise hardware companies also make desktop hardware and have a habit of also making it compatible with Linux. Companies write open source drivers because they are interested in selling hardware. Not so much because they care about software freedom, but when freedom bring them sales, they learn to like it.

Tristam Green
March 8th, 2010, 03:38 PM
nonsensical

You keep using that word. I do not think that word means what you think it means.

From inference, Linux would get hardware support (and good hardware support) from a vendor lock-in like Mac has with Intel, because then there'd be no doubt what hardware Linux would run on, just as it's the case with Apple hardware and software. You want Mac OSX? Buy a MacBook or a Mac desktop.

Again, you and I both know it'll never happen, and that's okay.

inobe
March 8th, 2010, 03:41 PM
aristotle viewed hate as a desire for the annihilation of an object that is incurable by time.

mickie.kext
March 8th, 2010, 03:48 PM
You keep using that word. I do not think that word means what you think it means.


Nonsensical = does not make any sense.


From inference, Linux would get hardware support (and good hardware support) from a vendor lock-in like Mac has with Intel, because then there'd be no doubt what hardware Linux would run on, just as it's the case with Apple hardware and software. You want Mac OSX? Buy a MacBook or a Mac desktop.

Doing that would defeat purpose of Linux and FLOSS. Whole point of free and open source software is exact opposite of that.


Again, you and I both know it'll never happen, and that's okay.
Agreed.

Tristam Green
March 8th, 2010, 03:50 PM
Doing that would defeat purpose of Linux and FLOSS. Whole point of free and open source software is exact opposite of that.

The point of FLOSS for me is to clean between my teeth \\:D/

I'd argue that for some Linux users, the point of open-source is to get something for little to no effort with an added bonus of "looking like a hacker".

tkoco
March 8th, 2010, 04:02 PM
Flame wars accomplish nothing. Each side hunkers down in their respective foxhole and tries to duke it out with words as the ammo.
I am a long time user of Linux (Debian 1995) AND I am also a long time user of Windows (starting with 3.1 and MSDOS 3.x).

On the Windows side, I'm sure the Windows zealots would agree that current version (Windows 7) is a far better product than Windows 3.1

On the Linux side, I'm sure that Linux enthusists would agree that the the current versions of Ubuntu, Fedora, Red Hat, Debian, (etc. pick your favorite distro) are a far better product than the first offerings of Linux.

The guiding principle of any GUI based OS should be summed up in this phrase:

"Intuitively Obvious" - Aunt Tille (from a 2006 Blog) should not need a 6 inch thick manual to do the task(s) she wants to do.

A lot of folks are overlooking the fact that the OS alone does not make the usable computer. It takes "Intuitively Obvious" programs which mesh well with the GUI to make a pleasant desktop experience.

Problems abound in all OSes. I recently had to reload Windows XP Pro on a system only to discover that my copy was too old and would thoroughly corrupt the installation when the "Windows Update" kicked in. I was forced to purchase a recent version of Windows XP Pro to fix this problem.

On Ubuntu Linux, I just updated an old laptop (9.10 installed) and it is busy being a "B**ch" because something screwed up through the update process. SO I have to dive into the OS guts and diagnose what happened.

In summary, when you read bad things about your favorite OS, look at the DATE of the posting.

fewt
March 8th, 2010, 04:03 PM
Doing that would defeat purpose of Linux and FLOSS. Whole point of free and open source software is exact opposite of that.


"Free and open source" means the product has no cost (sometimes), is free to use, and is open for anyone to alter. The term FOSS doesn't express or imply that it is fit for any purpose. Don't believe me, read the GNU GPL. You are reading more into it than is really there.

Tristam Green
March 8th, 2010, 04:06 PM
Flame wars accomplish nothing. Each side hunkers down in their respective foxhole and tries to duke it out with words as the ammo.
I am a long time user of Linux (Debian 1995) AND I am also a long time user of Windows (starting with 3.1 and MSDOS 3.x).

On the Windows side, I'm sure the Windows zealots would agree that current version (Windows 7) is a far better product than Windows 3.1

On the Linux side, I'm sure that Linux enthusists would agree that the the current versions of Ubuntu, Fedora, Red Hat, Debian, (etc. pick your favorite distro) are a far better product than the first offerings of Linux.

The guiding principle of any GUI based OS should be summed up in this phrase:

"Intuitively Obvious" - Aunt Tille (from a 2006 Blog) should not need a 6 inch thick manual to do the task(s) she wants to do.

A lot of folks are overlooking the fact that the OS alone does not make the usable computer. It takes "Intuitively Obvious" programs which mesh well with the GUI to make a pleasant desktop experience.

Problems abound in all OSes. I recently had to reload Windows XP Pro on a system only to discover that my copy was too old and would thoroughly corrupt the installation when the "Windows Update" kicked in. I was forced to purchase a recent version of Windows XP Pro to fix this problem.

On Ubuntu Linux, I just updated an old laptop (9.10 installed) and it is busy being a "B**ch" because something screwed up through the update process. SO I have to dive into the OS guts and diagnose what happened.

In summary, when you read bad things about your favorite OS, look at the DATE of the posting.

I honestly wish more people had an outlook like you.

cariboo
March 8th, 2010, 06:13 PM
I bet you drive a civic because it makes you look cool, is this you?

http://www.streetfire.net/video/Stock-GT-46-Stang-Vs-out_7770.htm

:P

You got it right I do drive a Civic, it's 1988 model that I bought form a guy in a bar parking lot for $25.00 3 1/2 years ago, the car is blue, with a white hood and fender, and is in need of a new drivers door, because the window regulator, mounts have torn out, and the stereo stopped working last month.

I guess instead of cars I should have used game consoles instead.

I live in a resource based community, and people here do purchase vehicles to stroke their ego's, why else would anybody buy a $75,000+ pickup, and put stickers or have slogans painted on saying pee on Ford/Plymouth/GM.

Name change
March 8th, 2010, 06:35 PM
aristotle viewed hate as a desire for the annihilation of an object that is incurable by time.
I think that's still stands. At least in it's "final stage".
And as we know Linux is open source and as such can be forked, it means it can't be completley annihalated. So it's counter productive to do it...

Again I think there's a difference between hating Linux and any other OS, and pointing out problems etc. in some way or another.
Even if it looks like a "stupid rant".

chucky chuckaluck
March 8th, 2010, 06:36 PM
aristotle viewed hate as a desire for the annihilation of an object that is incurable by time.

'hatred' is probably a bit dramatic for what might better be labeled 'frustration', or 'annoyance'.

fewt
March 8th, 2010, 06:39 PM
You got it right I do drive a Civic, it's 1988 model that I bought form a guy in a bar parking lot for $25.00 3 1/2 years ago, the car is blue, with a white hood and fender, and is in need of a new drivers door, because the window regulator, mounts have torn out, and the stereo stopped working last month.

I guess instead of cars I should have used game consoles instead.

I live in a resource based community, and people here do purchase vehicles to stroke their ego's, why else would anybody buy a $75,000+ pickup, and put stickers or have slogans painted on saying pee on Ford/Plymouth/GM.

Game consoles would have been better. I've never seen a $75,000 truck with a pee on anything sticker on it. You can get an F{1,2}50 loaded for less than $30K if you look around.

What is this resource based community that you speak of?

sudoer541
March 8th, 2010, 06:54 PM
***-This is my opinion***

I think hate speech should stop here first. I see tons of Microsoft hate posts every day and I think instead of judging others, we should judge ourselves.
If a mod reads this, I think you guys should implement a anti-hate speech rule. Unless you like the hate speech towards your competitors.
I think hate speech is very childish and it should not be allowed at all times.

cariboo
March 8th, 2010, 06:54 PM
People around here only use F150's for hauling garbage. Most of what I see on the road are F-350's, Sierra 3500's and Dodge 3500's. Half tons are for people that just moved out of the big cities. BTW Dealers here won't sell 2 wheel drive pickups here, you have to go to the big city for that.

lykwydchykyn
March 8th, 2010, 07:07 PM
I tried that many years ago actually, set up half a dozen machines and let people use them and observed and helped, then posted my results here. It just led to a legendary flamewar as the overly defensive community members 'debunked' what I claimed were problems (most of which have now been addressed).

I'll write a detailed 'what I think is wrong' article at some point - probably on a 'hater' blog for safetys sake. :)

The problem is that you posted it here. As I try to point out to people, this is a user forum. What you post here is read by an audience of users, most of whom are happy with -- if not downright ecstatic about -- Ubuntu and/or Linux and well adjusted to its peculiarities. Presenting them with usability suggestions based on the experiences of people unfamiliar with Linux is probably going to result in reactions that the suggestions are either superfluous ("we can already do that a different way"), misleading ("the system doesn't actually work like that") or might take away functionality they enjoy ("you're trying to dumb-down Linux!").

Posting on a "haters" site isn't going be effective either; probably you are going to get a few "amens" from people who've shared those frustrations (or people for which any stick is good enough to beat Linux with), but you're not going to effect any change.

If you really believe your data is useful, and you want to see change, it would be far more effective to take the data to the relevant development community (who likely uses a mailing list). It would be a shame to put that much effort into it, and then stop short of taking the results to anyone who could do anything with them.

gsmanners
March 8th, 2010, 07:44 PM
What seems obvious to a Windows user is not always that terribly obvious in the grand scheme of things. For example, when I first started using Ubuntu, I always thought it was obvious that a CD should eject when you press the eject button. Lately, I find myself using the context menu on the desktop, and it's a much more convenient solution for most of my setups.

fewt
March 8th, 2010, 07:51 PM
People around here only use F150's for hauling garbage. Most of what I see on the road are F-350's, Sierra 3500's and Dodge 3500's. Half tons are for people that just moved out of the big cities. BTW Dealers here won't sell 2 wheel drive pickups here, you have to go to the big city for that.

Hmm, still not $75K.

http://www.fordvehicles.com/trucks/superduty/

$25,875
Starting MSRP

Just sayin. :)

ubunterooster
March 8th, 2010, 07:53 PM
I think you guys should implement a anti-hate speech rule.
I think hate speech is very childish and it should not be allowed at all times.

The only problem: if you speak to strongly against hate speech, that itself will be seen as hate speech.
example:
frustrated user: "*∴♪! M!cr0$0ft"
mod: "see this /♪>! page you ×♭$*! about *「*! language before I show you the */∴! door"
I think the moderators are doing fine. It's not the mods that need to do more to clean it up, it's us, the users.

hiflyer780
March 8th, 2010, 10:13 PM
***-This is my opinion***

I think hate speech should stop here first. I see tons of Microsoft hate posts every day and I think instead of judging others, we should judge ourselves.
If a mod reads this, I think you guys should implement a anti-hate speech rule. Unless you like the hate speech towards your competitors.
I think hate speech is very childish and it should not be allowed at all times.

Thank you!! I totally agree with you! Every operating system has room for improvement. Just becasue we all use Linux based operating systems doesn't make them perfect.

doas777
March 8th, 2010, 10:23 PM
***-This is my opinion***

I think hate speech should stop here first. I see tons of Microsoft hate posts every day and I think instead of judging others, we should judge ourselves.
If a mod reads this, I think you guys should implement a anti-hate speech rule. Unless you like the hate speech towards your competitors.
I think hate speech is very childish and it should not be allowed at all times.

I wish i could agree, but in my eyes, any abridgment of free speech, lessens us all.

"Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write." --Voltaire
http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/35376.html

phrostbyte
March 8th, 2010, 10:40 PM
I wish i could agree, but in my eyes, any abridgment of free speech, lessens us all.

"Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write." --Voltaire
http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/35376.html

We need some kind of democratic moderation system. You should be able to get some kind of karma for helping on the support form. This is probably the 3rd time I've said this, but the site called "StackOverflow" system is brilliant, and the quality of the average post there shows. There is no hand picked "mod team" on that site either. It's self regulated, using a fairly complex karma system.

cariboo
March 8th, 2010, 10:43 PM
The only problem: if you speak to strongly against hate speech, that itself will be seen as hate speech.
example:
frustrated user: "*∴♪! M!cr0$0ft"
mod: "see this /♪>! page you ×♭$*! about *「*! language before I show you the */∴! door"
I think the moderators are doing fine. It's not the mods that need to do more to clean it up, it's us, the users.

I'll let the misspelling of Microsoft go for just this once.

None of us talk like that in a pm though. :)

Frak
March 8th, 2010, 10:44 PM
We need some kind of democratic moderation system. You should be able to get some kind of karma for helping on the support form. This is probably the 3rd time I've said this, but the site called "StackOverflow" system is brilliant, and the quality of the average post there shows. There is no hand picked "mod team" on that site either. It's self regulated, using a fairly complex karma system.
Anything that bogs down the server would result in an instant no.

If we can't have thanks, we can't have karma.

phrostbyte
March 8th, 2010, 10:49 PM
Anything that bogs down the server would result in an instant no.

If we can't have thanks, we can't have karma.

If it's a money issue, you got Mr. Shuttleworth. He could buy a series of high availability data centers for UF if he was inclined to. The fact that this site runs on such poor hardware, perhaps is signaling to me that Canonical really doesn't all that much about this site. It's not like it makes them money or anything. :) But that's their imperative, you could make a decent sum of money from this site.

Delever
March 8th, 2010, 11:00 PM
If it's a money issue, you got Mr. Shuttleworth. He could buy a series of high availability data centers for UF if he was inclined to. The fact that this site runs on such poor hardware, perhaps is signaling to me that Canonical really doesn't all that much about this site. It's not like it makes them money or anything. :) But that's their imperative, you could make a decent sum of money from this site.

But... It runs? :)

helblaze
March 8th, 2010, 11:41 PM
I love linux, though I'm more of a Linux hobbyist since I can't do a complete swtich from Windows to linux. I hate it when people ask me to compare Windows to Linux, since I like windows for it's strong points gaming, compatibility, etc, but I love Linux as well, customization, speed (I consider linux faster), protection, but Linux and Windows are completely different, using both you get 2 completely different experiences.

23meg
March 8th, 2010, 11:47 PM
My problem with the whole thing was the seeming lack of anyone officiating the process. What was needed was someone official to say 'this isn't what we are looking for', 'the is good but...'. It was billed as a 'call to arms', but what it really was was a 'theme competition'. I never received any official feedback at all on anything I did and while there were a few moderator class people there none of them had any say in the actual theme process (their roles seemed entirely crowd control).

When I pitch an idea to a client (usually as a rough mockup) I generally expect a 'Yes, Yes but, No or No but'. I would rarely invest time in polish before the client had signed off on the basic design. I was trying to contribute and get involved, I didn't even particularly want any credit, hell a straight up "no, don't like it" would have been fine - at least then I could try again from a different angle. It's very hard to summon the motivation to fully develop an idea (including implementation) if you have no guarantees it'll ever be even looked at. Again the whole thing was billed as aiming to include the non-developer designers - exactly the sort of people who would not be able to move past a non-functional mockup.

While half of the suggestions were pie-in-the-sky UI ideas (with some actually interesting concepts and discussions) the other half was legitimate design ideas, quite a few of which showed promise but Canonical never actually set an agenda, provided requirements or any form of critique of anything. It's obvious it's not going to go anywhere if there is nobody in charge and nobody making any decions. You could have had Jonathan Ive show up and I'd still be seriously doubtful that it would have gone anywhere.

Congratulations (sincerely; so few people get this) for nailing the #1 problem making proper design collaboration next to impossible in the free software culture: lack of leadership, and a definition of audience and goals, which inevitably lead to a "+1 vs. -1" culture of perpetual experimentation within a vacuum.

On the flipside, there are small but promising positive signs of this changing, as exemplified in Mark Shuttleworth's recent post on the new branding.


I tried that many years ago actually, set up half a dozen machines and let people use them and observed and helped, then posted my results here. It just led to a legendary flamewar as the overly defensive community members 'debunked' what I claimed were problems (most of which have now been addressed).

As lykwydchykyn explained (http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=8935344&postcount=215), your mistake was posting them here.


I'll write a detailed 'what I think is wrong' article at some point - probably on a 'hater' blog for safetys sake. :)

If you have no intention to actually improve anything, and are fine with creating more hatred and negativity than already exists around these places, why not. Otherwise, be a critic, like these (http://troy-sobotka.blogspot.com/) people (http://blog.rfquerin.org/2010/03/04/ubuntu-rebranded/) did (http://www.kilobitspersecond.com/2010/03/03/the-new-ubuntu-lucid-look-an-appraisal/); not a hater.

NightwishFan
March 8th, 2010, 11:52 PM
I love how Linux can scale to machines with 45000000 (Exaggeration?) processors. Hopefully they start focusing on desktops more as well, its seems they have lately as mine works well.

Edit: Point of this post. Linux is a kernel! :D

Gotta love Darwin and all it's pretty apple shaped logos??

Frak
March 8th, 2010, 11:55 PM
I love how Linux can scale to machines with 45000000 (Exaggeration?) processors. Hopefully they start focusing on desktops more as well, its seems they have lately as mine works well.

Edit: Point of this post. Linux is a kernel! :D

Gotta love Darwin and all it's pretty apple shaped logos??
I believe the joke was:

"Linux can perfectly scale over thousands of processors and support hotplugging all of those CPU's. That's great, now where's my stable flash player?"

Can't remember who said it.

RiceMonster
March 8th, 2010, 11:59 PM
I believe the joke was:

"Linux can perfectly scale over thousands of processors and support hotplugging all of those CPU's. That's great, now where's my stable flash player?"

Can't remember who said it.

You're thinking of an XKCD comic.

"Do you have support for smooth full screen flash yet?"

"No, but who uses that?"

forrestcupp
March 9th, 2010, 12:05 AM
We need some kind of democratic moderation system. You should be able to get some kind of karma for helping on the support form. This is probably the 3rd time I've said this, but the site called "StackOverflow" system is brilliant, and the quality of the average post there shows. There is no hand picked "mod team" on that site either. It's self regulated, using a fairly complex karma system.

They need to set it up so that for every 100 karma points we get we are allowed to give one infraction, no questions asked. :D

fewt
March 9th, 2010, 12:08 AM
They need to set it up so that for every 100 karma points we get we are allowed to give one infraction, no questions asked. :D

This would never work unless the only way to get karma is to have helped someone in a way that's measurable.

If there was a karma system for the sake of karma, then UF would turn into slashdot. You can't allow a karma system that's not measured because there are too many users here willfully spreading bad information about Linux because it does all kinds of things in their minds that it really doesn't do in reality.

Frak
March 9th, 2010, 12:08 AM
You're thinking of an XKCD comic.

"Do you have support for smooth full screen flash yet?"

"No, but who uses that?"
Thanks, that's what it was.

Tristam Green
March 9th, 2010, 12:59 AM
Assuming that the FC and administration staff were *actually* looking for our opinions in the matter (hint: they're not), I'd offer that a karma system never works out the way administration wants it, unless a) the userbase is small enough to handle it maturely, or b) nobody takes it seriously.

We all know that conditions A and B are false here.

Giant Speck
March 9th, 2010, 01:08 AM
A karma system on Ubuntu Forums would be frequently abused.

bocke
March 9th, 2010, 01:08 AM
Sorry to interrupt your discussion guys. Just ran across this a minute ago: http://www.serverwatch.com/trends/article.php/3868046/Open-Source-Software-Bad-Evil-and-Un-American.htm

lolz Freedom Fries anyone? :)

P.S. I still don't get it how someone could call FOSS un-American... FOSS originated in U.S. (as well as Software industry itself) and has been there for decades.

sudoer541
March 9th, 2010, 01:09 AM
Thank you!! I totally agree with you! Every operating system has room for improvement. Just becasue we all use Linux based operating systems doesn't make them perfect.


exactly!!!
I saw many...I mean MANY "hate speech" posts here, such as:
Microsoft is evil, Apple is evil, I cant stand/ hate using Windows, I cant stand/hate using Mac OS X. And more recently, i read a thread titled "lets damage Microsoft"
I think Linux is already BUGGY as hell... pulse audio anyone?
If mods would delete hate and bashing posts would be great, but they dont care as long as people dont bash linux (obviously)
I have to admit, Windows is not perfect but it works for the majority of computer users regardless of its flaws.

ubunterooster
March 9th, 2010, 01:56 AM
[/B]
If mods would delete hate and bashing posts would be great, but they dont care as long as people dont bash linux (obviously)


Umm... not true. Just read this whole thread. Mods DO care. They try to keep it clean from people like me having a bad day, but there are a lot of us.

Allow me to repeat what I said before. The solution is not to have more mods controlling more posts, the solution is more users controlling their own mouths/keyboards. Yes, myself included.

ubunterooster
March 9th, 2010, 02:06 AM
A karma system on Ubuntu Forums would be frequently abused.

+1: "Democracy is two wolves and a hare voting over dinner"
Yes, there are times for democracy but not when we are often acting like wolves trying to devour those who could otherwise later help us.

Maybe later when we are all vegeterians...

Meep3D
March 10th, 2010, 05:08 PM
As lykwydchykyn explained (http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=8935344&postcount=215), your mistake was posting them here.

I know, but the whole concept of "we don't want feedback here" seems slightly insane. Just about every closed-source app company (that isn't by a mega corp) provides an easily accessible way for you to provide feedback (SmartFTP + Basecamp being the last two I used) and do seem to take note of what customers say and take action based upon it. Microsoft and other large companies generally don't want feedback as they have whole departments dedicated to user testing already - as I said megacorps are the exception to this rule.

How come closed source projects have a much more actively involved community than the flagship Linux distro? With all the talk of 'community developed' it just seem ludicrous. I mean there is a forum for just about everything on this board *except* discussing Ubuntu.

aysiu
March 10th, 2010, 05:34 PM
Just about every closed-source app company (that isn't by a mega corp) provides an easily accessible way for you to provide feedback (SmartFTP + Basecamp being the last two I used) and do seem to take note of what customers say and take action based upon it. Is that feedback through a user forum? I don't see how user forums are a good way to provide feedback on software.

There are two ways to provide feedback to Ubuntu developers:

1. If you have a wishlist item, put it on Brainstorm:
http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com

2. If you believe there's a functional problem that needs to be fixed, file a bug:
https://bugs.launchpad.net

clanky
March 10th, 2010, 06:51 PM
Is that feedback through a user forum? I don't see how user forums are a good way to provide feedback on software.

There are two ways to provide feedback to Ubuntu developers:

1. If you have a wishlist item, put it on Brainstorm:
http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com

2. If you believe there's a functional problem that needs to be fixed, file a bug:
https://bugs.launchpad.net

So where then is the correct place for a comment like "Ubuntu isn't polished enough", this is not really a bug, if it was posted launchpad it would (rightly) be ignored, neither is it an idea, an idea such as Ubuntu needs to be more polished and professional looking would also (rightly) be ignored on brainstorm.

There are thousands of little gripes like these that people have, without an official or semi-official place to air them then people end up getting frustrated and coming here to post "BAAWWWWWWW, linux is rubbish"

Would a "what's wrong with Ubuntu", or a "what's wrong with Linux" sub-forum be such a bad thing? I know this is an official Canonical forum and they obviously want to portray a positive image of Ubuntu, but if there was a proper place to discuss (or even just to post and leave it there without reply) what people see as the failing in Ubuntu / Linux then maybe the rest of the boards could be kept clearer and the overall impression of Ubuntu / linux that people get from visiting here would actually be a more positive one.

teh603
March 10th, 2010, 06:54 PM
If the so-called Linux haters of which you speak 1) know more about Linux than advocates and 2) care about Linux, why don't they actually fix the problems they complain about?

I think their issue is that if they actually try to build or improve, they become open for criticism. Its easier for people to sit back and troll.

If Ubuntu wasn't open for people to help improve it, then I wouldn't have gotten a link to Brainstorm when I tried submitting a bug to get Plymouth removed. But then again, I still can't wrap my brain around the concept of someone trolling just for the fun of it.

aysiu
March 10th, 2010, 06:59 PM
So where then is the correct place for a comment like "Ubuntu isn't polished enough", this is not really a bug, if it was posted launchpad it would (rightly) be ignored, neither is it an idea, an idea such as Ubuntu needs to be more polished and professional looking would also (rightly) be ignored on brainstorm. I don't think "isn't polished enough" is very specific feedback, and it would be wholly useless to any project, closed or open source. You might as well say something "sucks" or "isn't any good." If you're going to suggest something be changed, you should have specific feedback about how it should be changed.


Would a "what's wrong with Ubuntu", or a "what's wrong with Linux" sub-forum be such a bad thing? Yes, it would. I don't see how that would be in any way productive. As I mentioned before, there are official avenues for contacting developers. If you have a suggestion, post a Brainstorm. If you think something is malfunctioning, file a bug report.

If people want to just rant about their bad experiences, that's what the Ubuntu Testimonials and Experiences subforum is for.

aysiu
March 10th, 2010, 07:00 PM
I think their issue is that if they actually try to build or improve, they become open for criticism. Its easier for people to sit back and troll. Well, then they don't really care, and they're not really that knowledgeable, then.

If, as the OP says, "haters" both care about Linux and are more knowledgeable about Linux, then they have both the skills and motivation to actually improve it. So "hating" is totally useless.

The fact that they do hate leads me to believe they are not more knowledgeable or that they actually don't care... or both.

NightwishFan
March 10th, 2010, 07:02 PM
If everyone wants it, how could they ignore it? Why not post ideas and mockups as well. If "Windows has the biggest market share" is a bug, then "Ubuntu needs to look professional" is one too. A much more important one.

gsmanners
March 10th, 2010, 07:02 PM
I know, but the whole concept of "we don't want feedback here" seems slightly insane. Just about every closed-source app company (that isn't by a mega corp) provides an easily accessible way for you to provide feedback (SmartFTP + Basecamp being the last two I used) and do seem to take note of what customers say and take action based upon it. Microsoft and other large companies generally don't want feedback as they have whole departments dedicated to user testing already - as I said megacorps are the exception to this rule.

If this is true, then how do you explain the Fallout 3 tech forums?

http://www.bethsoft.com/bgsforums/index.php?showforum=36

Thousands (I'm not exaggerating, either) of threads complaining about how the game constantly freezes and/or crashes, and not one helpful thread about why or what they can do about it. Hundreds of threads about people calling tech support and getting the run-around, etc.

It isn't just the mega corps that screw with people. IMO, it's any organization with tons of money. They already have your money, so why should they bother to fix the product they sold you?

Tibuda
March 10th, 2010, 07:05 PM
If "Windows has the biggest market share" is a bug, then "Ubuntu needs to look professional" is one too. A much more important one.

I agree.

KiwiNZ
March 10th, 2010, 07:08 PM
So where then is the correct place for a comment like "Ubuntu isn't polished enough", this is not really a bug, if it was posted launchpad it would (rightly) be ignored, neither is it an idea, an idea such as Ubuntu needs to be more polished and professional looking would also (rightly) be ignored on brainstorm.

There are thousands of little gripes like these that people have, without an official or semi-official place to air them then people end up getting frustrated and coming here to post "BAAWWWWWWW, linux is rubbish"

Would a "what's wrong with Ubuntu", or a "what's wrong with Linux" sub-forum be such a bad thing? I know this is an official Canonical forum and they obviously want to portray a positive image of Ubuntu, but if there was a proper place to discuss (or even just to post and leave it there without reply) what people see as the failing in Ubuntu / Linux then maybe the rest of the boards could be kept clearer and the overall impression of Ubuntu / linux that people get from visiting here would actually be a more positive one.

Both you and aysiu have valid points however...,

Forums are not good places to voice what you are saying as they tend to get buried or swamped in a rush of defensive posts.

Locales such as Launchpad etc are not good for say non technical "it just does not work for me" type of entry as developers are not interested and will not read them.

This sort of thing is best done by customer satisfaction surveys and focus groups and the findings and recommendations presented to the developers etc in way they will listen and act on.

clanky
March 10th, 2010, 07:14 PM
I don't think "isn't polished enough" is very specific feedback, and it would be wholly useless to any project, closed or open source. You might as well say something "sucks" or "isn't any good." If you're going to suggest something be changed, you should have specific feedback about how it should be changed.

That's the whole point I was trying to make, at the moment the only remotely official channels are for specific bugs or specific ideas, there is no way users can air their views on their overall experience with Linux and if those experiences are bad then people who do try to air them tend to get shouted down and accused of trolling, which then ironically leads a lot of them to start to be actual trolls.



Yes, it would. I don't see how that would be in any way productive. As I mentioned before, there are official avenues for contacting developers. If you have a suggestion, post a Brainstorm. If you think something is malfunctioning, file a bug report.

If people want to just rant about their bad experiences, that's what the Ubuntu Testimonials and Experiences subforum is for.

OK, I had forgotten about testimonials and experiences, again there is the problem that if someone goes in there and posts negative stuff then they are generally flamed to hell and accused of trolling, maybe testimonials and experiences should be a place where it is not possible to reply to threads? People simply post their thoughts others can read them, but cannot reply to them, this way there would be no flame wars and any "Bawwww, linux is rubbish" posts elsewhere in the forum could be moved there so long as they were not about specific problems.