In response to the "the was fun but back to XP crowd"

[m.musashi]

EDIT: Oops, should have read the "that was fun but back to XP crowd"

I was going to post in response to this thread (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=141402) but decided it would be more appropriate here as it wasn't really directed at the OP of that thread as to the community at large.

I've read several threads like that one and several in response to the "Linux isn't ready for the desktop user" type. Many relevant opinions have been presented but I'd like to add my own thoughts as a Linux newbie.

I may be new to Linux, but I'm a fairly competent computer user - in Windows - and I know my way around the inside a bit too. For various reasons I wanted to close the windows and open a new door. I found ubuntu and it has been mostly painless. There have been some problems (including a big problem with a new mobo that was solved by buying a different one) but despite those frustrations I kept coming back. I found that I was actually having fun. The people in the forum are all really great too. Linux has become a hobby for me.

Some people, when they buy a car, buy a new one or a reliable used one because they want something safe and that will just work - that will take them from point A to B without needing a tool box. Others actually like to work on cars. They might buy a cheap, broken down piece of junk and then spend their free time fixing it up just they way they like. Ubuntu certainly isn't a cheap (well it's free), broken down piece of junk but it's not a new car either. I think the majority of Linux users are hobbyist who don't mind opening the toolbox from time to time. Maybe they have more than one computer with one that they can DO work on and one or more they "work" on. Both might be *nix boxes or maybe they have windows too. The point is they probably don't NEED the *nix box to do everything they need a computer for and if they do, they are competent enough and patient.

For me, I have windows and I use it when I need to (coldfusion, dreamweaver, DVD shrink) and I'm playing with Linux the rest of the time. I'm to the point I can do most tasks in Linux and use it more and more frequently. I knew that it would take time and I was willing to invest it. I also knew it would take some computer sense and I have that too and the knowledge I lack I can gain. I know how to learn.

It seems, however, that not all newbies are as knowledgeable as me - and I'm really not THAT knowledgeable - and certainly some are way more knowledgeable. I'm sure some have never (re)installed windows or had to find drivers for hardware that was plug and play but didn't want to, have never seen a C prompt and know that ctrl-alt-delete can fix most problems. They are frustrated with windows for what ever reason and what something new. They find a Linux distro and figure "how hard can it be?" And those who have done many of these things probably feel even more confident.

I really don't know how to address this. Sorry, I hope you didn't read this far hoping to find all the answers :). I do know that I have a found a place for myself. I'm having fun, learning lots and slowly kicking the windows addiction (something I want to do for my own reasons). I advocate Linux when I can and have introduced several people and even set up a few ubuntu boxes at work.

I think this community is great. I love how frustrated users are acknowledged, listened to, and then helped.

Well, that's my 2-cents. I'm probably writing more for myself but I just wanted to say a few things - not the least of which is THANKS!

[matthew]

I was going to post in response to this thread (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=141402) but decided it would be more appropriate here as it wasn't really directed at the OP of that thread as to the community at large.Thank you. That was both appropriate and appreciated.


I think this community is great. I love how frustrated users are acknowledged, listened to, and then helped.

Well, that's my 2-cents. I'm probably writing more for myself but I just wanted to say a few things - not the least of which is THANKS!And thank YOU for the kind words and for being a part. Welcome!

[mstlyevil]

The biggest disadvantage Linux has over Windows is most computers come with Windows preinstalled and preconfigured. Most people do not have a clue how long of a process it is to get Windows up and ready for use. If they do have to reinstall, it is usually a mirror image of the exact state the computer was in upon first boot. They do not realize that a fresh install requires hunting down and installing the various drivers, codecs, basic applications like a DVD player, Adobe, burning software, word processing, browser pluggins, and various other applications. If Linux was preinstalled and preconfigured at the same level that Windows is then it would not be considered a geeky or techie operating system because it would be ready to use for the average consumer.

Linux/Ubuntu is not any harder to set up or use than Windows, it is just different. Since it does not do many things the Windows way most people will find it hard because they have to relearn how to do certain task in Linux. I set up and preconfigured Ubuntu for my brother and his daughter and they started using it with no problem whatsoever. The thing that impresses them most is that they have not borked the install like they did Windows just by surfing the web and picking up various nasties. The fact I have not had to go and fix their computer in over a month is evidence that Linux is a much more stable platform for web surfing. If they can seamlessly use Linux in place of Windows by it being preinstalled and configured, then anyone can.

[aysiu]

To sum up:

1. Linux rarely comes pre-installed on people's computers.
2. Windows usually comes pre-installed on people's computers.
3. So most people who use Linux have to install it themselves.
4. Installing an operating system takes time and dedication.

[xequence]

They do not realize that a fresh install requires hunting down and installing the various drivers, codecs, basic applications like a DVD player, Adobe, burning software, word processing, browser pluggins, and various other applications.

Honestly... XP didnt need any extra drivers at all for me. No extra codecs, except H264. I dont have any DVDs, but I am sure a quick install of VLC would play them. I dont use any Adobe software. Burning just do a quick install of Alchohol 120%. Word processing... Notepad. Browser plugins, I didnt know opera had plugins :P

Seriously. Its not that hard to install windows. It is VERY minimal input.

The hardest part is to sit there watching it tell you how it includes IE6, which is "award winning".

Oh, my opinion is it is better to post on the original topic. I hadnt seen the original topic so I dont know what it was about. If you had of posted there everyone would already know what it was about.

[m.musashi]

The biggest disadvantage Linux has over Windows is most computers come with Windows preinstalled and preconfigured. Most people do not have a clue how long of a process it is to get Windows up and ready for use.
I agree. But that doesn't stop them from coming - nor should it. But for now, the vast majority of new Linux users will be windows users and they will have to install it on their own.

I think the CDs should come with a clause like "some assembly required" and maybe one of those shiny "getting started" paperboard things with lots of sudo commands and such. Maybe then they will understand that while Linux is great, it isn't going to work like magic (though it is magical at times).


Linux/Ubuntu is not any harder to set up or use than Windows, it is just different.
I guess one of my goals was to point out that new users (and I'm one of them) need to come with certain expectations and not the ones they are likely to have. Don't expect it to be a windows clone, expect to invest a lot of time learning something new, getting frustrated, digging for answers, having some success and then feel like you are sliding backwards again. It's like mountain climbing: it's a lot of work, there are false summits, obstacles, wild animals and then you get to the top and feel like you have really accomplished something only to realize that you've only climbed ONE mountain and there are many, many more.

[mips]

Linux imho is a a enthusiast OS. I like tinkering to but sometimes i actually get the shits and would just like it to work. The sooner linux rids itself of it's geeky image the better.

There are people that just use computers out there and battle to install something like opn office. God help then should they try and install linux, sad but true.

For the last two weeks i have been booting into XP. I don't like MS but it works. It's pretty stable & secure if your anti-virus & firewall type apps auto update and security patches are installed. I still dont like it but i can use it and there are several things that it does better than linux but that is not all linux's fault either.

One thing i can however say is that linux gets better as time goes by and in a few years things should be great.

I can really understand peoples frustrations.

[aysiu]

Seriously. Its not that hard to install windows. It is VERY minimal input. It's not the installing part (putting the CD in the tray and pressing a few buttons)--it's the configuring afterwards. I've installed Windows from scratch twice, and it's not been pleasant. And VLC was not stable on Windows. A good thing I found my InterVideo WinDVD recovery disk later!

[m.musashi]

Honestly... XP didnt need any extra drivers at all for me. No extra codecs, except H264. I dont have any DVDs, but I am sure a quick install of VLC would play them. I dont use any Adobe software. Burning just do a quick install of Alchohol 120%. Word processing... Notepad. Browser plugins, I didnt know opera had plugins :P

Seriously. Its not that hard to install windows. It is VERY minimal input.

The hardest part is to sit there watching it tell you how it includes IE6, which is "award winning".
I have installed windows dozens of times. Some times because I've screwed it up tweaking things I shouldn't have tweaked and other because it was time to clean house. I never found it all that difficult - time consuming yes! I've also installed ubuntu and a couple other distros several times - sometimes because I screwed it up and then just putting it on several computers. In my experience, it's about the same amount of work with ubuntu taking a lot less time but about equal amounts of hassle (and really not that much in either case).


Oh, my opinion is it is better to post on the original topic. I hadnt seen the original topic so I dont know what it was about. If you had of posted there everyone would already know what it was about.
Point taken but it was more of rant and off topic and I was really responding to about 4 or 5 such threads and it didn't seem right to muck up one and confuse the poor guy any more. I did link to it so you could read it.

[aysiu]

There are people that just use computers out there and battle to install something like opn office. God help then should they try and install linux, sad but true. And God help them should they try to install Windows, too. Luckily for them... they don't have to. Dell or HP will do it for them and then give them recovery CDs to replicate that work.

[lordofkhemenu]

You can eliminate Dreamweaver from one of your Windows needs - it works under WINE :D

[xequence]

I've installed Windows from scratch twice, and it's not been pleasant.

Ive installed it... Must have been over 15 times and its all been perfect and easy, except when I tried to install windows 98.


And VLC was not stable on Windows.

It works perfectly for me, odd how it didnt for you...

[aysiu]

Ive installed it... Must have been over 15 times and its all been perfect and easy, except when I tried to install windows 98. Same for me for Ubuntu, but I don't imagine everyone else has the same ease with Ubuntu I have just because Ubuntu happened to recognize all my hardware out of the box. If your screen resolution's off, your ethernet card isn't recognized, and you have no sound after your Windows installation--trust me--it's a pain to diagnose the problem, figure out what drivers to get, and a reliable source to get them from.

Are you honestly trying to say that you could give anyone a Windows XP CD and a random computer you put together, and they will necessarily have an easy time installing it?

It really doesn't matter what Xequence's experience was or what aysiu's experience was.

Take a look at an aggregate population (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=110167).

[m.musashi]

You can eliminate Dreamweaver from one of your Windows needs - it works under WINE :D
I haven't tried wine yet. Well, I did once but couldn't get it to work. My philosophy is to use apps on the OS they were designed for. It's just easier. Linux is about choice and at the moment I choose to continue to use windows for the macromedia stuff. Of course I also choose never to spend another dime on MS products (except maybe keyboards and mice) Someday macromedia will be on linux or there will be a viable alternative. Of course, someday, it will be hard to find apps for windows. Remember the Roman empire?

[xequence]

Are you honestly trying to say that you could give anyone a Windows XP CD and a random computer you put together, and they will necessarily have an easy time installing it?

Quite possibly many people could. I dont think everyone, but many people. But the normal user wouldent be able to get drivers, but thats only a problem if XP didnt detect and configure their hardware already.


but I don't imagine everyone else has the same ease with Ubuntu I have just because Ubuntu happened to recognize all my hardware out of the box.

Good point, didnt realise I was doing that...

[Bandit]

Linux isnt for a Windows User.
Linux is for a Computer User.

I used to work tech support for a ISP in mississippi about 6 or 7 years ago.
I honesty think most windows users should not even own a computer. Most windows users are just flat out idiots. Really would you buy a car if you didnt know how to drive one? Why buy a computer if you dont know how to use one..
I have no pitty or simpathy for someone who refuses to take the time to learn how a computer works.
The problem is most people think since computers are so cheap that they are an appliance now. They expect them to just work without knowing anything about them. Like a Air Conditioner in a house. They buy a A/C someone installs it for them. Now all they have to do is turn it on set the temp they want. Unfortunatly a computer is not that simplistic.
A PC still requires you to know something about it.
I hate windows because M$ trys their damndest to make windows into a appliance. Then PC manufactures dump tons of other junk on board to further that endever.
If someone buys a PC then wishes to attend a computer class or at least read a book then I applaud them. Regardless if they run windows or not and they are on their way to becomming a PC user.
Otherwise they are just a idiot windows user who doesnt want to help them self.

Cheers,
Bandit

[Bragador]

-Continuing bandit's ranting

I think the major problem with most users is that they don't play with their computer.

Since I was a kid, I've always explored new softwares by clicking on all options to see what they do and figure it out by myself. Most users don't do that though. They have a specific idea and ask "okay I would like to do that right now but I don't know this program so please someone tell me how to do it and I'll learn it by heart".

"Tinkering" is not supposed to be for a minority of computer users, ALL users should learn to explore their tools and test them by themselves.

[Bandit]

-Continuing bandit's ranting

I think the major problem with most users is that they don't play with their computer.

Since I was a kid, I've always explored new softwares by clicking on all options to see what they do and figure it out by myself. Most users don't do that though. They have a specific idea and ask "okay I would like to do that right now but I don't know this program so please someone tell me how to do it and I'll learn it by heart".

"Tinkering" is not supposed to be for a minority of computer users, ALL users should learn to explore their tools and test them by themselves.

Exactly, most people dont buy a car without at least looking in the trunk or the glove box.

[mstlyevil]

Honestly... XP didnt need any extra drivers at all for me. No extra codecs, except H264. I dont have any DVDs, but I am sure a quick install of VLC would play them. I dont use any Adobe software. Burning just do a quick install of Alchohol 120%. Word processing... Notepad. Browser plugins, I didnt know opera had plugins :P

Seriously. Its not that hard to install windows. It is VERY minimal input.

The hardest part is to sit there watching it tell you how it includes IE6, which is "award winning".

Oh, my opinion is it is better to post on the original topic. I hadnt seen the original topic so I dont know what it was about. If you had of posted there everyone would already know what it was about.

First off, you probally are using a computer manufactered by a big name company like Dell or Gateway. Second, you probally are using onboard video and sound. Third, the computer was probally built before or shortly after XP was released in 2001. Windows XP does have drivers for hardware that was very common at the time of it's release. I installed it on a old Compaq with a 900 meg Duron that originally had ME on it and it detected all the hardware with no problems. It is very common for these older computers to just work with XP because they were built around that time and XP included the most common drivers from that era.

Fast forward to 5 years later. You try installing XP on any newer hardware and guess what? Nothing works out of the box. You build a computer from scratch and guess what? Nothing works out of the box. XP was not designed for todays hardware. The only way to get everything to work is the third party drivers. You can not even connect to the net until you install the NIC drivers. Video is choppy until you install the video drivers. Sound does not work until you install the sound drivers. It takes a long time just to get to the point of installing applications on your computer. When you get your new computer, you will find all of this out very quickly if you decide to install from your old XP cd. The computer will come with a restore disk or partition and this is not the same as doing a complete reinstall. I challenge you to install XP from your old CD so you can see what we are talking about when it comes to setting up a new install.

Oh and BTW notepad was never meant to be a word processor. Sure it can be used as a very crippled one but it does not meet the basic needs of most people using word processors.

[m.musashi]

Linux isnt for a Windows User.
Linux is for a Computer User.

I used to work tech support for a ISP in mississippi about 6 or 7 years ago.
I honesty think most windows users should not even own a computer. Most windows users are just flat out idiots. Really would you buy a car if you didnt know how to drive one? Why buy a computer if you dont know how to use one..
I have no pitty or simpathy for someone who refuses to take the time to learn how a computer works.
The problem is most people think since computers are so cheap that they are an appliance now. They expect them to just work without knowing anything about them. Like a Air Conditioner in a house. They buy a A/C someone installs it for them. Now all they have to do is turn it on set the temp they want. Unfortunatly a computer is not that simplistic.
A PC still requires you to know something about it.
I hate windows because M$ trys their damndest to make windows into a appliance. Then PC manufactures dump tons of other junk on board to further that endever.
If someone buys a PC then wishes to attend a computer class or at least read a book then I applaud them. Regardless if they run windows or not and they are on their way to becomming a PC user.
Otherwise they are just a idiot windows user who doesnt want to help them self.

Cheers,
Bandit

Nice rant, dude. But seriously, I think you are basically right. Spend some time in a Best Buy or other computer store and listen to the questions people ask. More often than not they don't even seem to know what they are asking much less the answer.

Case in point: I was at my local computer store (the one were geeks who build their own computers go) and some guy was trying to get some help with his wireless router. After sort of listening it became obvious the guy hadn't even hooked it up! As near as I could tell it wasn't even plugged in and he was frustrated because his wireless card wasn't picking it up. Like I said, I wasn't really listening but if he did have it connected it was to his laptop. In any case, he didn't have a clue. It's not bad to be ignorant as long as you recognize it and take steps to learn. That guy did seem to be trying to understand and he wasn't being a jerk or anything. Just an example of how little lots of people really know. I'm not trying to sound elite or anything. I don't know that much either but I try, I read, and I learn.

[Teroedni]

Honestly... XP didnt need any extra drivers at all for me. No extra codecs, except H264. I dont have any DVDs, but I am sure a quick install of VLC would play them. I dont use any Adobe software. Burning just do a quick install of Alchohol 120%. Word processing... Notepad. Browser plugins, I didnt know opera had plugins :P

Seriously. Its not that hard to install windows. It is VERY minimal input.

The hardest part is to sit there watching it tell you how it includes IE6, which is "award winning".

Oh, my opinion is it is better to post on the original topic. I hadnt seen the original topic so I dont know what it was about. If you had of posted there everyone would already know what it was about.

Well in all mine install of windows, i neede to installa lot of drivers and such to get my cards to work right:Graphics, sound, etc

So i think it depends on the hardware and the os support.

[xequence]

First off, you probally are using a computer manufactered by a big name company like Dell or Gateway.

Accually, it is made by a not so big company, but still a big company I think... MicronPC.


Second, you probally are using onboard video and sound.

You got it.


Oh and BTW notepad was never meant to be a word processor. Sure it can be used as a very crippled one but it does not meet the basic needs of most people using word processors.

Works fine for me.

[mstlyevil]

No response to the rest of my post xquence? :mrgreen: How about my challenge? Are you going to take me up on it?

[xequence]

Huh? Challenge?

I must have missed that part. Ill read it and reply =P


I challenge you to install XP from your old CD so you can see what we are talking about when it comes to setting up a new install.

Ok, I am planning to do that anyway =P

It should get here by sunday or monday, ill do it within a couple of days from then.

[m.musashi]

You try installing XP on any newer hardware and guess what? Nothing works out of the box. You build a computer from scratch and guess what? Nothing works out of the box. XP was not designed for todays hardware. The only way to get everything to work is the third party drivers. You can not even connect to the net until you install the NIC drivers. Video is choppy until you install the video drivers. Sound does not work until you install the sound drivers. It takes a long time just to get to the point of installing applications on your computer. When you get your new computer, you will find all of this out very quickly if you decide to install from your old XP cd. The computer will come with a restore disk or partition and this is not the same as doing a complete reinstall. I challenge you to install XP from your old CD so you can see what we are talking about when it comes to setting up a new install.
I'm not trying to defend XP. It's served me well (for the most part). I'm not here becaue I totally hate XP, I'm here because I hate MS as a business and also becaues I want to learn something new.

I did install XP (the 64 bit you can download and trial so it probably had more recent drivers and such but knowing windows it didn't) on a computer I just built (built to use mainly with linux). XP installed without a hitch. Of course no network or sound but my board came with a driver cd (both windows and linux drivers) and an easy set up. After that it worked fine. On the other hand, Ubuntu wouldn't install at all. I have several threads in this forum on those problems. SuSE installed but no network or sound even after installing the nvidia drivers. I eventually gave up and got a different board (bad BIOS). Not really linux fault but it didn't work and XP did.

Like I said, I'm not trying to defend XP. I just think it's important to remember that no OS is perfect and XP isn't THAT bad. Yes it has security flaws that are THAT bad but they have not impacted me. I've gotten viruses but always because I was visiting questionable sites and expected it. My virus software did its job and I never lost anything. I also don't leave my computer on 24/7.

[Bandit]

Nice rant, dude. But seriously, I think you are basically right. Spend some time in a Best Buy or other computer store and listen to the questions people ask. More often than not they don't even seem to know what they are asking much less the answer.

Case in point: I was at my local computer store.....

O'God... I ran into the same sort of problem at my neighbors house.
Dudes sister was visiting for a week and they couldnt get her wireless to work. He swore he had wireless networked in his house. So I tried to set it up from my house just accross the street. The signal was to weak to get a lock on it. So we went over to his house. I went in and set down at the kitchen table and I tried to run the network setup wizzard again and configure the wireless. The signal was stronger but it was like his network was encrypted.
So I set down at his computer. Hmm.. Didnt see a wireless card. since his computer was stuck in one of those "burn your CPU up desks with no air vents". I asked to take a look at the router.. Hmm no atenna. Had pretty CAT5 cables running of it tho.. DUH!!!! BLUES CLUES!!!
So I ended up letting him borrow a 50ft cat5a cable I had sitting around.
But the fact is he didnt know what he had..

Cheers,
Joey

[vayu]

I think we should all join a different XP forum every week and make posts that "We tried but Windows just doesn't work for us".

[Zotova]

First off, you probally are using a computer manufactered by a big name company like Dell or Gateway. Second, you probally are using onboard video and sound. Third, the computer was probally built before or shortly after XP was released in 2001. Windows XP does have drivers for hardware that was very common at the time of it's release. I installed it on a old Compaq with a 900 meg Duron that originally had ME on it and it detected all the hardware with no problems. It is very common for these older computers to just work with XP because they were built around that time and XP included the most common drivers from that era.

Fast forward to 5 years later. You try installing XP on any newer hardware and guess what? Nothing works out of the box. You build a computer from scratch and guess what? Nothing works out of the box. XP was not designed for todays hardware. The only way to get everything to work is the third party drivers. You can not even connect to the net until you install the NIC drivers. Video is choppy until you install the video drivers. Sound does not work until you install the sound drivers. It takes a long time just to get to the point of installing applications on your computer. When you get your new computer, you will find all of this out very quickly if you decide to install from your old XP cd. The computer will come with a restore disk or partition and this is not the same as doing a complete reinstall. I challenge you to install XP from your old CD so you can see what we are talking about when it comes to setting up a new install.

The thing is you can say a lot of that about Linux as well, this isn't just xp's downfall.

The latest hardware for Linux won't be supported until someone writes the drivers - at least on WinXP they are available straight away by the manufacturer.

I've just installed Kubuntu today myself as the old one screwed up. I've had to dot around today for various codecs, a driver for my wireless card and then tweak various things to make them actually work. The same goes for both XP and Linux.

[mstlyevil]

I'm not trying to defend XP. It's served me well (for the most part). I'm not here becaue I totally hate XP, I'm here because I hate MS as a business and also becaues I want to learn something new.

I did install XP (the 64 bit you can download and trial so it probably had more recent drivers and such but knowing windows it didn't) on a computer I just built (built to use mainly with linux). XP installed without a hitch. Of course no network or sound but my board came with a driver cd (both windows and linux drivers) and an easy set up. After that it worked fine. On the other hand, Ubuntu wouldn't install at all. I have several threads in this forum on those problems. SuSE installed but no network or sound even after installing the nvidia drivers. I eventually gave up and got a different board (bad BIOS). Not really linux fault but it didn't work and XP did.

Like I said, I'm not trying to defend XP. I just think it's important to remember that no OS is perfect and XP isn't THAT bad. Yes it has security flaws that are THAT bad but they have not impacted me. I've gotten viruses but always because I was visiting questionable sites and expected it. My virus software did its job and I never lost anything. I also don't leave my computer on 24/7.

I wasn't putting down XP. It is impossible for them to include all the drivers as it is in Linux. I was making a point to xquence that his experience was not the typical experience when working with todays hardware.

You are correct that 64 Bit XP Pro has newer drivers. It is based off of server 2003 and not XP. They share the same interface and name and that is about all that they share. I ran the trial version for a few months myself and it was hit and miss on my hardware but was an improvement over 32 bit XP Pro.

[mstlyevil]

The thing is you can say a lot of that about Linux as well, this isn't just xp's downfall.

The latest hardware for Linux won't be supported until someone writes the drivers - at least on WinXP they are available straight away by the manufacturer.

I've just installed Kubuntu today myself as the old one screwed up. I've had to dot around today for various codecs, a driver for my wireless card and then tweak various things to make them actually work. The same goes for both XP and Linux.

I was making a point to xquence that his experience wasn't typical. I never said Linux did not have the same problems.

Rant: Arrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggg why is everyone reading too much into my post. Rant over. :mrgreen:

[m.musashi]

I think we should all join a different XP forum every week and make posts that "We tried but Windows just doesn't work for us".
Great idea but are there XP forums? I thought you were on your with windows or you call your pc makers tech support, wait a long time, get some flunky who reads from a script and in the end says you need to reinstall.

[m.musashi]

I was making a point to xquence that his experience wasn't typical. I never said Linux did not have the same problems.

Rant: Arrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggg why is everyone reading too much into my post. Rant over. :mrgreen:
I didn't think you were putting XP down (though feel free as I have pleanty of times). I was just offering my experience as an example of sometimes it works (my recent experience) and sometimes it doesn't. When my trial runs out I plan to go back to regular XP so I may be in for more of a hassle than I had with XP64.

[aysiu]

Great idea but are there XP forums? I thought you were on your with windows or you call your pc makers tech support, wait a long time, get some flunky who reads from a script and in the end says you need to reinstall. http://www.windowsxpforums.com/
http://www.annoyances.org/exec/forum/winxp
http://computing.net/windowsxp/wwwboard/wwwboard.html

[m.musashi]

I guess there are. Although the first link isn't an active site. I'm not sure about the other two but my first impression is they are not quite parallels of this forum.

It does raise a question though... I had assumed that this forum was somehow "officially" supported or recognized by Cannonical or the ubuntu development branch in some way. Is that at all true or is this a labor of love for some die-hard ubuntu fans?

[aysiu]

The amazing thing is how similar some of the problems are, regardless of what OS you use. Here are some of the thread subject headings:

Subject: Reformatted plz help wit internet! (http://computing.net/windowsxp/wwwboard/forum/148893.html)
Subject: not recongized external USB (http://computing.net/windowsxp/wwwboard/forum/148889.html)
Cannot connect to Dial-up Internet Service (http://www.annoyances.org/exec/forum/winxp/1141909824)
Explorer using 100% CPU time when run as separate process (http://www.annoyances.org/exec/forum/winxp/1141882790)

Slow computer even after formatting the drive (http://www.annoyances.org/exec/forum/winxp/1141874174)
My DVD-RW Drive won't run my cd's (http://www.annoyances.org/exec/forum/winxp/1141867692)
CAcan not boot past blue "windows is startingup" screen PLEASE help (http://www.annoyances.org/exec/forum/winxp/1141853264)
Disable xp hover tips (http://www.annoyances.org/exec/forum/winxp/1141810813)
taskbar problems (http://www.annoyances.org/exec/forum/winxp/1141806313)

This one I found amusing, actually:
Cannot boot windows, from Fedora Core 4 (http://www.annoyances.org/exec/forum/winxp/1141859133)

By the way, has anyone had any luck getting keyboard shortcuts to launch applications in Windows XP? I define the keyboard shortcut, but then when I try to use it, nothing happens.

I hate using the mouse, and the closest I can come to a working "keyboard shortcut" is Win+R and then typing
firefox

[m.musashi]

This one I found amusing, actually:
Cannot boot windows, from Fedora Core 4 (http://www.annoyances.org/exec/forum/winxp/1141859133)

That one is good. Did you see one of the replies:

Ive just installed Fedora Core 4, but there seems to be a problem.

Obviously, your problem is not a Windows XP issue. You need to seek help on a Linux
forum.

Why is it a linux problem? XP is the one that doesn't play nice.


By the way, has anyone had any luck getting keyboard shortcuts to launch applications in Windows XP? I define the keyboard shortcut, but then when I try to use it, nothing happens.

I hate using the mouse, and the closest I can come to a working "keyboard shortcut" is Win+R and then typing
firefox

I'm sorry, you'll have to post that on an XP forum :).

[Bandit]

I think we should all join a different XP forum every week and make posts that "We tried but Windows just doesn't work for us".
I love the idea...

[aysiu]

I'm sorry, you'll have to post that on an XP forum :). I love these forums, though!

Unfortunately, I have to use Windows at work, so that's why I'm looking for a shortcut thing.

[Lord Illidan]

Aysiu, you forgot the www.winforums.org . I was a member until I discovered this forum ;), nice people.

About my installation of Windows XP. I installed it some 6 days ago, to play Battle for Middle Earth ;).

Let's compare it with Breezy/Dapper.

I have a Celeron 2 GHZ with 512 MB RAM.

1. Loading Installation software - Breezy/Dapper take a couple of seconds, at most 1 minute.
Windows XP takes a few minutes to load up.

2. Partitioning - Ubuntu's partitioning software is extremely good, allowing you to resize existing partitions, etc. Windows XP had to wipe the first partition of my master drive /dev/hdc which was Ubuntu's / partition, before I could get to install on the slave drive. No reason at all given.

3. Installation time - About identical. Hadn't time to really measure it. But Windows XP is not installing the same amount of software that Ubuntu installs. The OS, Media Player 7, SP 1, Notepad, and a couple of games.

Ubuntu comes with a load of carefully chosen packages. You are ready to go when installing.

4. Post Installation.

Drivers. - I am a disorganised person, and have lost most of my driver cds.

Soundcard - Genius Soundmaker Live 4.1
Ubuntu detects this out of the box, no configuration needed, except for alsamixer.
Drivers for Windows XP are not on the cd, but at the manufacturer's website, and in a different language.

Graphics Card - NVIDIA 6800
With Ubuntu, I only need to type : sudo apt-get install nvidia-glx.
With Windows, it is another hunt for the drivers on nvidia.com

Printer : HP PSC 1110
Ubuntu - detected out of the box, scanner and printer.
Windows - Had to download a 110 MB file from hp......

Webcam - Nortech 300
Ubuntu doesn't detect it. Neither Windows, though I got it working by downloading the drivers.

Patches

Windows took hours to patch, because after each 10 patches, I had to restart.
Breezy and Dapper also had many patches, but I didn't have to restart after each 10. And they downloaded faster. Service Pack 2 takes half an hour to install, after downloading. Computer is slooow.

Speed

Some people say that XP is faster than Ubuntu. I tried it out.
First boot, it is pretty fast.
Now, start adding apps. Antivirus, Anti spyware, firewall, more and more essential programs. Bootup time triples, and becomes equal to that of Ubuntu. With initng in Breezy, XP is left in the dust.
Multitasking. Windows Media Player is sh**. Slow, and bulky. Had to install Winamp, and VLC. Running up to 10 progs at a time becomes slow as treacle. Under Linux, I do it regularly...

Conclusion : XP crashed/rebooted spontaneously about 6 times in 4 days.

So where does XP come on top? Propietary software support, only, me thinks. And some drivers. But on no account, am I going to use that system again. In fact, I wiped it after 5 days and went for Dapper. Not so hot in speed, but when I consider that I have XGL, a totally free system, increased stability (yeah, Dapper is more stable than XP, and it is supposed to be "unstable").
Probs with Ubuntu : codecs, games, and software like photoshop, and dreamweaver. Though I think I might get them to work on wine.

[m.musashi]

I love these forums, though!

Unfortunately, I have to use Windows at work, so that's why I'm looking for a shortcut thing.
I know. I love this forum too and would love to ask all kinds of non linux questions. Maybe they should set up a separate XP or other OS forum. Or maybe that is what this forum is for.

[matthinckley]

I guess there are. Although the first link isn't an active site. I'm not sure about the other two but my first impression is they are not quite parallels of this forum.

I think you will have trouble finding any parallels of this forum...

Come to think of it.. this forum is the most helpful and fun forum I have found in a while. I tried a few linux distros before ubuntu but was never impressed with their online communities until I found this one. I used to be on a car forum that was a lot of fun but was overrun with trolls and the administration wasn't to keen on keeping everyone in check.. the policies and staff/administration of this forum are top notch..

[xequence]

Windows took hours to patch, because after each 10 patches, I had to restart.


Dont use any window security updates, simple :P


Now, start adding apps. Antivirus, Anti spyware, firewall, more and more essential programs. Bootup time triples, and becomes equal to that of Ubuntu.

None of those (anti spyware/virus or firwall) are essential. You can get along fine if you know what you are doing (case and point, see my thread somewhere on here :P).


Windows Media Player is sh**. Slow, and bulky. Had to install Winamp, and VLC.

Yes, WMP is bad.

Use foobar2000 (awesome and fast and full featured) along with VLC.

[Lord Illidan]

Dont use any window security updates, simple :P



None of those (anti spyware/virus or firwall) are essential. You can get along fine if you know what you are doing (case and point, see my thread somewhere on here :P).


Yes, WMP is bad.

Use foobar2000 (awesome and fast and full featured) along with VLC.

Unfortunately, when you have 2 younger sisters and an absent minded father using the computer too, you do need these security packages. ;) And, yes, I used foobar 2000 for the last 2 days. Excellent app.

[Kerberos]

By the way, has anyone had any luck getting keyboard shortcuts to launch applications in Windows XP? I define the keyboard shortcut, but then when I try to use it, nothing happens.

I'm not sure but I think it only works if the icons are on the desktop. It works on mine anyway.

I am now one of the 'Fun but back to XP crowd'. What finished it for me was every time I changed networks it would keep the IP of the old connection, which isn't even in the same range as the old network rather than update through DHCP. It would require a disable/re-enable to fetch a new IP and even then it would retain the DNS servers from the old network connection (which wont work) so I'd have to go into network and delete them before the thing would get on the Internet again.

Like the OP said, Linux is fun to play around on, to learn computers but it tends to get in your way constantly and require far too much maintainance and installing stuff is such a massive pain in the *****. For me my computer is a means to an end rather than an end in itself and I dont enjoy doing mundane tasks that can be automated. I'll probably try it again in a year or two to see if things have improved but its back to Windows for the meantime.

* If its not in the repo

[TeeAhr1]

It's not bad to be ignorant as long as you recognize it and take steps to learn. That guy did seem to be trying to understand and he wasn't being a jerk or anything. Just an example of how little lots of people really know. I'm not trying to sound elite or anything. I don't know that much either but I try, I read, and I learn.
Damn true. I will bend over backwards to help people (with my very limited Linux knowledge), as long as you're trying. Even on a forum, you can tell the difference in tone between someone who wants to figure out how to do something and someone who wants you to do something for them.

Now, if you do want me to do something, that's fine. Here's my card, I charge a very reasonable rate (especially compared to those usurious ****ers at Geek Squad), and if I can say so myself, I do solid work. But not for free.

[m.musashi]

Damn true. I will bend over backwards to help people (with my very limited Linux knowledge), as long as you're trying.
And I for one greatly appreciate you and the others who are so willing to provide help.

Now, if you do want me to do something, that's fine. Here's my card, I charge a very reasonable rate (especially compared to those usurious ****ers at Geek Squad), and if I can say so myself, I do solid work. But not for free.
I don't know, man. With an avatar like that, can we really trust you? :D Ditto on the geek squad. Even the guys at the GOOD computer store in my town don't know it all. I had one guy tell me that if I hooked up the sound ports on the front of the case the ones in back wouldn't work. I tried anyway and it worked fine. Might be a problem on other boards but it worked on mine. Just goes to show that trial and error is sometimes the best teaching tool. Now, where does this lead go...

[eltaito]

I definately find it easier to install Ubuntu than it is to set up my laptop to use Windows again...in fact, Ubuntu actually supports most of my hardware out of the box while I have to install separate drivers in windows.....not to mention the fact that every app I need is in the repositories and a simple matter of using apt-get to retreive....In windows I have to traipse around the internet finding AVG, Zone alarm, spybot, adaware, vlc, foobar, openoffice, nvu, gaim, firefox......etc....the list goes on, not to mention the massive update process. You can argue that you don't "Have to update" but a lot of software and hardware now requires SP2 (my windows install disk is SP1) and with no antivirus/firwall/spyware remover you are very limited to where you can safely go on the internet. LInux takes me less than an hour to get fully functional and I can go anywhere with impunity...windows takes me most of a day and I have to spend half my time "upkeeping" the system................Linux definately gets my vote for ease of use. and Ubuntu is the best distro I have used....keep up the great work guys!!!

[m.musashi]

I definately find it easier to install Ubuntu than it is to set up my laptop to use Windows again...in fact, Ubuntu actually supports most of my hardware out of the box while I have to install separate drivers in windows
I've had great luck with ubuntu on laptops. I've installed in on my two and another two at work. Granted they were all newer (less than a year or so old) but everything worked out of the box - including wireless. I've had less luck with the box I built but then I didn't pay as much attention to hardware as I should have. Oh well, live and learn.

[m.musashi]

I am now one of the 'Fun but back to XP crowd'. What finished it for me was every time I changed networks it would keep the IP of the old connection, which isn't even in the same range as the old network rather than update through DHCP. It would require a disable/re-enable to fetch a new IP and even then it would retain the DNS servers from the old network connection (which wont work) so I'd have to go into network and delete them before the thing would get on the Internet again.[/i]
Yeah, that's been an issue for me too. My hassle is a bit different but switching networks is not seamless.

But please don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to criticize anyone for wanting to go back to windows (I myself am not 100% ubuntu...yet). I just thought it would be great if one way or another, people who do try linux had a realisic understanding of what's involved (not that you didn't). I first tried linux a couple years ago when I tried to put debian on an old laptop. I got it loaded but it looked an awful lot like DOS. No GUI at all! I thought, "this is linux?" When a friend suggested ubuntu I thought I'd try again expecting something similiar but when I saw the whole GUI desktop I was greatly surprized. So for me, it has been much easier than expected.

I'm not sure the linux community is doing themselves any favors by trying to persuade converts. If you just leave linux install disks lying around, most people who pick them up are probably not going to have success and might even erase their whole hard drive and develop a long lasting distaste for linux. Now, if you know what you are doing and help those people then that is going to be much more profitable for the user and for linux as whole. I had a student with a old laptop and he couldn't get win98 to work (driver issues and all). I suggested ubuntu and helped him get it set up. He is now enjoying his "new" laptop and having nothing but success. We even managed to print to a network printer at school and it was easy! I have more trouble with the windows boxes and printing and it's a windows network:???: .

[Brunellus]

Yeah, that's been an issue for me too. My hassle is a bit different but switching networks is not seamless.

But please don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to criticize anyone for wanting to go back to windows (I myself am not 100% ubuntu...yet). I just thought it would be great if one way or another, people who do try linux had a realisic understanding of what's involved (not that you didn't). I first tried linux a couple years ago when I tried to put debian on an old laptop. I got it loaded but it looked an awful lot like DOS. No GUI at all! I thought, "this is linux?" When a friend suggested ubuntu I thought I'd try again expecting something similiar but when I saw the whole GUI desktop I was greatly surprized. So for me, it has been much easier than expected.

I'm not sure the linux community is doing themselves any favors by trying to persuade converts. If you just leave linux install disks lying around, most people who pick them up are probably not going to have success and might even erase their whole hard drive and develop a long lasting distaste for linux. Now, if you know what you are doing and help those people then that is going to be much more profitable for the user and for linux as whole. I had a student with a old laptop and he couldn't get win98 to work (driver issues and all). I suggested ubuntu and helped him get it set up. He is now enjoying his "new" laptop and having nothing but success. We even managed to print to a network printer at school and it was easy! I have more trouble with the windows boxes and printing and it's a windows network:???: .
we've been over this ground a million times:

most people do not install operating systems. PERIOD. I myself did not do a full OS install until my first Linux install (SuSE 9.1) Operating system installation is a b*tch.

People use what comes on the computer that they buy, or the computer that's issued to them. So you buy a Dell, you get Windows plus all the other stuff Dell puts on it for you, and it JustWorks. It has been maybe 20 years since you bought a computer, then bought OS disks, then installed your OS, then thought about additional applications.

The upshot is that the target audience for linux installs is definitely NOT "the average user," because, taken in aggregate, the behaviour of "the average user" suggests that he doesn't know or care to know what his computer is doing. If he did, viruses and worms for Windows would not replicate nearly as quickly as they do now.

Michael Dell waffled the other day about Dell computers with preinstalled Linux, and made up some sorry excuse to the effect that picking only one distro would offend the users of other distros, so why bother? A pre-installed Linux on a cheap Dell would provide end-users *exactly* the same experience out of the box that they get with that other Operating System. The users who would be offended would just go ahead and install whatever they need.

That latter group--the people who install the software they want--is the group that tends to frequent forums and ask for and give help. The former group--who simply buy whatever comes with the machine--are the "screw you guys I'm staying with XP" guys. I am not optimistic that any new operating system, even if it were divinely-inspired and trivial to install, would appeal to them, because it is a NEW operating system.

[halfvolle melk]

Windows from scratch
That'll be the day! :mrgreen:

[m.musashi]

we've been over this ground a million times:

most people do not install operating systems. PERIOD. I myself did not do a full OS install until my first Linux install (SuSE 9.1) Operating system installation is a b*tch.Isn't that, more or less, what I've been getting at? I think most people on this forum understand what's involved. I was thinking more of the small percentage that want a windows replacement and expect a relatively painless experience. Hence my quip about "some assembly required" needing to be added somewhere.

My father has been complaining about viruses and such and I've been trying to convince him to try Linux. However, if I don't install it for him and get it set up he isn't likely to have much success (unless he's just lucky and everything just works).

Rather than leaving Linux CDs on newsstands and MacDonald’s counters we should leave the geek to install it:). Maybe we should stand on busy street corners with signs saying "will install Linux for food (beer?)"

[Brunellus]

Isn't that, more or less, what I've been getting at? I think most people on this forum understand what's involved. I was thinking more of the small percentage that want a windows replacement and expect a relatively painless experience. Hence my quip about "some assembly required" needing to be added somewhere.

My father has been complaining about viruses and such and I've been trying to convince him to try Linux. However, if I don't install it for him and get it set up he isn't likely to have much success (unless he's just lucky and everything just works).

Rather than leaving Linux CDs on newsstands and MacDonald’s counters we should leave the geek to install it:). Maybe we should stand on busy street corners with signs saying "will install Linux for food (beer?)"
I leave my CDs around and expect geeks to pick them up.

Anyone who is not suited to an OS install will run screaming away from the first boot screen, and immediately call their geeky husband/father/uncle/brother/neighbor (delete as appropriate) to exorcise the evil demons from their computer.

[m.musashi]

I leave my CDs around and expect geeks to pick them up.
But in order to spread the spirit of ubuntu, if that is what you want, then we have to reach out to the non-geeks. I for one would like to see Linux become a bit more mainstream. Although I'm sure many on this forum cringe at that idea.

BTW, how did the term "geek" evolve from a consumer of chicken heads to a computer nerd?

[Brunellus]

But in order to spread the spirit of ubuntu, if that is what you want, then we have to reach out to the non-geeks. I for one would like to see Linux become a bit more mainstream. Although I'm sure many on this forum cringe at that idea.

BTW, how did the term "geek" evolve from a consumer of chicken heads to a computer nerd?
it is not worth embracing people who will not embrace back.

My main concern is that there are people coming who have ZERO desire to learn anything new. AT all. as in, no new applications, no new operating systems, no new ways of thinking or doing.

People like this are better off in Windows, where they have already learened the basic, repetitive routines that get them through the day. The people adopting Linux now are those people who are suited to transferring knowledge--who actually learn CONCEPTS rather than ROUTINES.

"The average user" will come on board when his employer runs Linux, and there is a large vendor (Dell, HP) that sells preinstalled computers cheap. The former is more likely than the latter.

[m.musashi]

it is not worth embracing people who will not embrace back.

My main concern is that there are people coming who have ZERO desire to learn anything new. AT all. as in, no new applications, no new operating systems, no new ways of thinking or doing.

People like this are better off in Windows, where they have already learened the basic, repetitive routines that get them through the day. The people adopting Linux now are those people who are suited to transferring knowledge--who actually learn CONCEPTS rather than ROUTINES.
I guess I'm just an optimist (if my mom could see me now).

"The average user" will come on board when his employer runs Linux, and there is a large vendor (Dell, HP) that sells preinstalled computers cheap. The former is more likely than the latter.
We are installing a linux thin client lab in my school and largely due to my efforts (so I will also get the blame if it doesn't work). Doesn't HP offer Linux boxes? And dell has freeDOS boxes for those wanting to install Linux but I guess you are still on your own there.

[Brunellus]

I guess I'm just an optimist (if my mom could see me now).

We are installing a linux thin client lab in my school and largely due to my efforts (so I will also get the blame if it doesn't work). Doesn't HP offer Linux boxes? And dell has freeDOS boxes for those wanting to install Linux but I guess you are still on your own there.
your optimism is refreshing, but perhaps misplaced.

Good luck on the LTSP lab. HP offers them....allegedly. You have to look PRETTY DAMN HARD to find any reference of them on the site. likewise for dell, and they actually charge more for a freedos install than winxp.

[m.musashi]

your optimism is refreshing, but perhaps misplaced.
Probably just a newbie thing. I'll get more jaded as time goes on:).

[m.musashi]

HP offers them....allegedly. You have to look PRETTY DAMN HARD to find any reference of them on the site. likewise for dell, and they actually charge more for a freedos install than winxp.
I suppose they are burried so only people who really want them find them. I guess if you are dell or HP you wouldn't want the average idiot to order one and then want to return it or need endless tech support.

[aysiu]

I suppose they are burried so only people who really want them find them. I guess if you are dell or HP you wouldn't want the average idiot to order one and then want to return it or need endless tech support. You probably wouldn't want Microsoft to get angry and change the terms of your OEM agreement.

[m.musashi]

You probably wouldn't want Microsoft to get angry and change the terms of your OEM agreement.
Yeah, it will be interesting to see how all this plays out in the coming months and years.

[adamkane]

My impression of the average PC user is that they expect to plug the computer in, and have it work with no maintenance. This type of user will be worked over by email viruses and spyware and automatically installed software components. Eventually they will need to find someone to tell them "What happened to my computer? It was working, and now it's so slooow!" Then it's up to you or me to come to the rescue.

Many of the Linux distributions are targeted at the Pro-User crowd. They are ready and willing to tweak and maintain their PC to get it to do what they want. Linux requires maintenance, but so does XP, if you want a machine that doesn't blow up eventually.

My impression of the "I tried Ubuntu and now it's back to XP" crowd is that they are on a personal quest for an amazing PC experience, and Ubuntu was just a stop on the way. They've learned something new, and they will apply it to their future endeavors.

I've been blown away by all the things that Ubuntu can do, but I what I like most about Ubuntu is this forum! Even though Ubuntu machines can be tricked out and made to do the latest things, that isn't really what Ubuntu is about.

[shamrock_uk]

For me, I have windows and I use it when I need to (coldfusion, dreamweaver, DVD shrink) and I'm playing with Linux the rest of the time.

Just FYI, DVD shrink works great under wine.