Linux and "Innovation"

[RichardLinx]

I've been around these forums for a pretty long time now. And I've noticed a lot of recurring trends. There's the once a month KDE vs GNOME threads, the once a week Microsoft bashing with the Linsux defense, and then there's the monthly thread on how Linux needs more Innovation. Yeah, right.

I see all this talk about how Linux needs to be original, new and innovative. And then the second something even slightly unfamiliar is apporoached you all voice your opinions of disgust.

Examples:
KDE 4
GNOME 3.0
Google Chrome

You want Innovation? Stop mocking every single new thing that comes out.

Linux User: You know what Linux needs? More innovation!
More Linux Users: Yeah, more innovation would be great!
[Funny how no-one ever seems to actually make anything even close to an "innoavtive" suggestion.]

Next Day: "We announce google chrome!"

Linux Users then express disgust. The cycle continues.

Discuss.

[murderslastcrow]

There will always be critics either way. We just hope (and this is usually the case) that the majority of the users are sensible and informed. And, funny enough, most of the bad ideas aren't making it, and the stuff people love it getting through, like in Brainstorm.

I'm sure that, if they keep options available in Gnome3 and compiz becomes compatible with it, and it's faster than Gnome2, people will love it. It's just that there's a difference in between innovation and taking away meaningful features.

However, I think the majority of people like KDE 4 and Google Chrome. Gnome 3- eh, it's wishy washy. People want a change, but they don't wanna' get screwed.

[cariboo]

I prefer change and innovation, but it seems there a quite a few users that are perfectly happy running the version they started with.

We see many complaints about why things have to change, and why don't the devs fix bugs first before bringing in new features. In many cases the bugs are no longer relevant, as things have moved on with newer kernels and program updates.

Without new features Ubuntu would stagnate, and not keep gaining new users.

[aviedw]

I like change i actually promote it with all my heart but not simply for the sake of change. Making things different does not make it better for the end user. Thats one thing about linux that im happy and sometimes sad about because there is so much change, and when i see that the system needs to be updated im sometimes reluctant because sometimes updating my system messes it up some how. So now i research some of the major updates to see what it is they are actually changing and if i dont feel its absolutely necessary then i let it linger for a while.

To innovate is to move forward to progress to build and improve on what already exist.

I also think about the upgrades, i dont think im going to move from 9.10 for a while, Unless 10.4 has some major improvements, i think i will sit with my koala.

[RabbitWho]

I don't like innovation because I see it as a step towards progress, which is immoral. It only leads to new ways for people to steal things.

http://news.zdnet.co.uk/communications/0,1000000085,40057470,00.htm?tag=mncol;txt

[rottentree]

I don't like innovation because I see it as a step towards progress, which is immoral. It only leads to new ways for people to steal things.

http://news.zdnet.co.uk/communications/0,1000000085,40057470,00.htm?tag=mncol;txt

Sarcasm?

Innovation is always good.
Change only if it's for the better.

[Richard1979]

The reason I run Linux is because I love being in control of my O/S.
I'm safe in the knowledge that it won't phone home every half hour, the apps are well programmed and peer-reviewed to perfection.
Linux actually is perfection and I love it. :)

There is more innovation in Linux distros than Microsoft and Apple could ever hope to accomplish, by the way did you see who wrote the kernel code for USB3? (another O/S first BTW)...

Yes, her name is Sarah and she's actually a pretty girl:
http://sarah.thesharps.us/2009-06-07-20-00.cherry

/pauses for effect

[MooPi]

The reason I run Linux is because I love being in control of my O/S.
I'm safe in the knowledge that it won't phone home every half hour, the apps are well programmed and peer-reviewed to perfection.
Linux actually is perfection and I love it. :)
/pauses for effect
Wow I like your attitude. Yes I too am a Linux fanboi, for all the reasons you have listed and because I have strong libertarian feelings. Chances are no one on this forum has the pull necessary to influence the direction of Desktop Envirnments, or projects. We are just the peanut gallery mouthing off collectively. Maybe once in a while someone of merit may hear the combined scream from the many forum posts, but not likely. Everyone seems to enjoy the effects compiz enables but it sounds as if it may end up a dinosaur. So It's not a popularity contest that wins it's what works. I use an environment on my computer that would be foreign to the average Linux user and that's the way I like it. Let us all be happy with our diversity and not a war for who's the most popular.

[blueshiftoverwatch]

You want Innovation? Stop mocking every single new thing that comes out.
I want innovation, but I don't want innovation for the sake of innovation. For example, I think that PulseAudio is great. I haven't had any of the problems that other people on the forums seem to be having with it. I remember before when I had to manually edit a text file in order to be able to play two sound sources at once. Now it's automatic.

What I don't like is "innovation" for the sake of innovation. For example, I used to be a Kde user until all of the "improvements" that went into Kde 4.0. I installed Kubuntu 9.04 and couldn't even use the GUI frontent for apt-get to install a single package without it crashing. Which made me switch to Gnome, and now they're talking about taking the Gnome that I like and instead of making it more stable, faster, using more efficient code, and adding new practical features. They're completely redesigning the GUI which I don't think there is anything wrong with. So once that's included in Ubuntu by default I'm probably going to look for a new WM. Or like how like the Ubuntu devs put time into refining Compiz, which does absolutely nothing to practical value instead of using their resources on other ventures or added the Wubi installer for Windows when users who wanted to run Ubuntu on Windows could simply download and install Virtualbox for free.

</rant>

[23meg]

I hear, and even share the overall sentiment, but the stereotyping of hundreds of thousands of people of vastly different preferences, backgrounds and so on, and thus different stances regarding "innovation", under the heading "Linux users", is problematic, and not just in this case. It may very well be the case that it's different people wanting "innovation" and complaining about it at different times.

If we're talking about known cases of specific groups of people screaming for "innovation", and then crying foul when it happens upon them, the point is valid, but the gist of the original post seems to be based on a general observation of forum members who are summed up as "Linux users".

[t0p]

I see all this talk about how Linux needs to be original, new and innovative. And then the second something even slightly unfamiliar is apporoached you all voice your opinions of disgust.

Examples:
KDE 4
GNOME 3.0
Google Chrome


We all voice opinions of disgust? Sorry, gotta stop you there. I rather think the voice of the majority (as voiced on this site) rather like KDE4 and Gnome3. And Chrome is a roaring success as far as most peeps here.

Your complaint is more typical of other Linux sites. Ubuntuforums.org is not typical.



You want Innovation? Stop mocking every single new thing that comes out.


Members here, as a whole, don't mock "every single new thing that comes out". We've got some people hating on KDE4; mostly some other people hating on Gnome3; then a minority loathing Chrome.

And anyway, why shouldn't we complain about stuff we hate? If we don't say anything, the devs will think we love it and will carry on giving us more of the same.

[MCVenom]

...added the Wubi installer for Windows when users who wanted to run Ubuntu on Windows could simply download and install Virtualbox for free.

</rant>

Wubi works differently from Virtualbox... Wubi creates a virtual hard disk, and boots from it using the Windows bootloader. Virtualbox runs as a program from inside Windows.

Just my 2 cents :p

[MCVenom]

Btw, love the new KDE, undecided (but not enthusiatic) about Gnome 3, I hate Chrome as an OS b/c I don't like its philosophy, but the browser is something I'd consider using (though Chromium had issues on my laptop).

Being vocal helps foster innovation, instead of empty (and sometimes detrimental) change.

[lykwydchykyn]

I hear, and even share the overall sentiment, but the stereotyping of hundreds of thousands of people of vastly different preferences, backgrounds and so on, and thus different stances regarding "innovation", under the heading "Linux users", is problematic, and not just in this case. It may very well be the case that it's different people wanting "innovation" and complaining about it at different times.

If we're talking about known cases of specific groups of people screaming for "innovation", and then crying foul when it happens upon them, the point is valid, but the gist of the original post seems to be based on a general observation of forum members who are summed up as "Linux users".

This pretty much sums it up. When you think you're seeing hypocrisy in "the community", it might just mean the community isn't a single-minded entity but a collection of diverse individuals with unique opinions.

I generally cringe to even type "the community" because it's not really even that. About the only thing people have in common here is a membership to this forum.

[Kai69]

Linux is Innovation!!! Look at the different versions you can get, how you have the opertunity to change its looks and how things works also what is installed as standard and that you havent even paid for it.
Try saying that about windows or apple..;)

[ElSlunko]

One thing is for sure, people don't change -- so forums won't either.

[aviedw]

Linux is Innovation!!! Look at the different versions you can get, how you have the opertunity to change its looks and how things works also what is installed as standard and that you havent even paid for it.
Try saying that about windows or apple..;)

Not paying year right lol. If Windows was to open its source code they would probably have a better OS with each release. But the profit wouldnt be there. Thats really what this world is all about>>>$$$

[MasterNetra]

This pretty much sums it up. When you think you're seeing hypocrisy in "the community", it might just mean the community isn't a single-minded entity but a collection of diverse individuals with unique opinions.

I generally cringe to even type "the community" because it's not really even that. About the only thing people have in common here is a membership to this forum.

Come now there is more then that. For starters its probably safe to say we are all human. We all need to breathe oxygen. We all need to eat. We all need water. And so on. ;)

[AllRadioisDead]

Btw, love the new KDE, undecided (but not enthusiatic) about Gnome 3, I hate Chrome as an OS b/c I don't like its philosophy, but the browser is something I'd consider using (though Chromium had issues on my laptop).

Being vocal helps foster innovation, instead of empty (and sometimes detrimental) change.
You obviously weren't around when KDE4 was released lol.

[Twitch6000]

I haven't really seen anything innovative or original in linux except gnome 3..

Everything else has been made already in some form or another...

[WinterMadness]

I've been around these forums for a pretty long time now. And I've noticed a lot of recurring trends. There's the once a month KDE vs GNOME threads, the once a week Microsoft bashing with the Linsux defense, and then there's the monthly thread on how Linux needs more Innovation. Yeah, right.

I see all this talk about how Linux needs to be original, new and innovative. And then the second something even slightly unfamiliar is apporoached you all voice your opinions of disgust.

Examples:
KDE 4
GNOME 3.0
Google Chrome

You want Innovation? Stop mocking every single new thing that comes out.

Linux User: You know what Linux needs? More innovation!
More Linux Users: Yeah, more innovation would be great!
[Funny how no-one ever seems to actually make anything even close to an "innoavtive" suggestion.]

Next Day: "We announce google chrome!"

Linux Users then express disgust. The cycle continues.

Discuss.

I agree 100%

and for the record. Even the atrocity that was KDE 4.0 left me impressed. I knew where they were going, despite the fact that I couldnt get that damned thing to work.

KDE 4 is the only gui worthy of the term "modern" on linux or bsd etc. Gnome is nice and all, but really its on the level of what they had in windows 95-98

I cant imagine Gnome 3 being anything good but i will definitely try it. If they prove me wrong, more power to them. Having a good Gnome + a great KDE experience that already exists will only help linux grow.

Once I get good enough to program the sort of things I think linux needs I plan on really introducing a lot. Everything will be gui based and with newbies in mind out of the box, everything will look nice. On top of that ill have the option to use the programs in the terminal and such. I just think instead of having a steep learning curve to linux, it should be small with the promise of a deep experience if you choose it.

the main reason im sharpening my programming skills is to develop for the FOSS community.

[MasterNetra]

I agree 100%

and for the record. Even the atrocity that was KDE 4.0 left me impressed. I knew where they were going, despite the fact that I couldnt get that damned thing to work.

KDE 4 is the only gui worthy of the term "modern" on linux or bsd etc. Gnome is nice and all, but really its on the level of what they had in windows 95-98

I cant imagine Gnome 3 being anything good but i will definitely try it. If they prove me wrong, more power to them. Having a good Gnome + a great KDE experience that already exists will only help linux grow.

Once I get good enough to program the sort of things I think linux needs I plan on really introducing a lot. Everything will be gui based and with newbies in mind out of the box, everything will look nice. On top of that ill have the option to use the programs in the terminal and such. I just think instead of having a steep learning curve to linux, it should be small with the promise of a deep experience if you choose it.

the main reason im sharpening my programming skills is to develop for the FOSS community.

Not true Gnome is more on the level of XP atm. Hopefully that will change after Gnome 3 is released. And to the people who gripe against Gnome 3, will you please at least wait until the final is released before you start griping? Its still in development for goodness sake.

[WinterMadness]

Not true Gnome is more on the level of XP atm. Hopefully that will change after Gnome 3 is released. And to the people who gripe against Gnome 3, would you at least wait until the final is released before you start griping.

I agree with the last part. Which is why im not bitching about gnome 3 that much :P
It definitely looks interesting, I just dont know how practical it will be. But im at least going to give them props, because it IS unique and you can tell theyre trying to do something new. That benefits everyone. People need to get their sand outta their... well you know. Im a pretty die hard kde fanboy, and if im telling people to give gnome 3 a shot then you know somethings wrong.

I think XP was a little nicer looking, but if you feel that way thats fine.

The main problem with gnome as it is now, is that if you have a lot of programs it becomes incredibly annoying to try and find what youre looking for in the lists. Gnome has some scripts that offer windows like options, but theyre real buggy. KDE offers the best option I believe, its very similar to vista/7's menu(actually, 7 is a big rip on kde...) in the sense that you have a favorites list and a search box that doesnt require an exact match. Its really nice.

[blueshiftoverwatch]

KDE 4 is the only gui worthy of the term "modern" on linux or bsd etc. Gnome is nice and all, but really its on the level of what they had in windows 95-98
What's wrong with that GUI Windows 95 had? It was basically everything that modern GUI's have except minus a lot of the unnecessary eye candy. I actually preferred the simple and unobtrusive style over today's over how everything today has to be done with fancy transparency, special effects, and spinning cubes.

You have a taskbar, windows, icons that represent applications, etc. What more do you need? Is that spinning cube thing really going to help you get any work done? The only major advancement in the GUI since then as far as I'm concerned is the implementation of tabbed interfaces for web and file browsers. Now that comes in handy. I can have on window open instead of several.

[lykwydchykyn]

You have a taskbar, windows, icons that represent applications, etc. What more do you need? Is that spinning cube thing really going to help you get any work done? The only major advancement in the GUI since then as far as I'm concerned is the implementation of tabbed interfaces for web and file browsers. Now that comes in handy. I can have on window open instead of several.

Depends on how you use your system. I've found a number of compiz/kde4 "eyecandy" effects quite indispensible, such as scale/expose (where you can see scaled down versions of all your windows at once), thumbnails in tooltips, zooming out to the desktop "wall". Even the cube is useful for finding windows.

But that comes down to multitasking. I multitask like a lunatic at work, sometimes I have 20+ windows open. If I were limited to one desktop and a taskbar for managing them, I'd go nuts.

Sure, if you spend most of your time in a web browser or MDI application, then there isn't a lot of innovation left to do on the desktop. A lot of desktop innovation just hasn't caught on, because most people just launch the browser and forget they have a desktop.

[phrostbyte]

Like you said, I also think these forum topics need some 'innovation'. :D

[WinterMadness]

What's wrong with that GUI Windows 95 had? It was basically everything that modern GUI's have except minus a lot of the unnecessary eye candy. I actually preferred the simple and unobtrusive style over today's over how everything today has to be done with fancy transparency, special effects, and spinning cubes.

You have a taskbar, windows, icons that represent applications, etc. What more do you need? Is that spinning cube thing really going to help you get any work done? The only major advancement in the GUI since then as far as I'm concerned is the implementation of tabbed interfaces for web and file browsers. Now that comes in handy. I can have on window open instead of several.

things that look nice are easier to look at for longer periods of time and are more likely to be used

Windows 95, like gnome is organized in a pitiful manner.

If you have a lot of programs in the "internet" section, good luck trying to find what youre looking for quickly. Gnome is inefficient in comparison to the kickoff menu, and the vista/7 start menu.

I cant speak on what OSX has because ive used it maybe twice and I forget how it works.

[blueshiftoverwatch]

Windows 95, like gnome is organized in a pitiful manner.

If you have a lot of programs in the "internet" section, good luck trying to find what youre looking for quickly. Gnome is inefficient in comparison to the kickoff menu, and the vista/7 start menu.
You can always edit the menus.

[WinterMadness]

You can always edit the menus.

Still wouldnt be as efficient as the search box and favorites list in KDE and Windows. searching through multiple lists of programs is really just backwards at this point.

[J_Stanton]

What's wrong with that GUI Windows 95 had? It was basically everything that modern GUI's have except minus a lot of the unnecessary eye candy. I actually preferred the simple and unobtrusive style over today's over how everything today has to be done with fancy transparency, special effects, and spinning cubes. i agree. eye candy has nothing to do with getting a job done. fancy icons and transparencies arent going to help me get things done.

[J_Stanton]

If you have a lot of programs in the &quot;internet&quot; section, good luck trying to find what youre looking for quickly. heaven forbid it takes a second or 2 to find something. i guess the me generation today wants everything to be instantaneous. sad. btw, there are a ton of things in system-preferences and i have no problem finding anything within a second or 2. geez already.

[WinterMadness]

heaven forbid it takes a second or 2 to find something. i guess the me generation today wants everything to be instantaneous. sad. btw, there are a ton of things in system-preferences and i have no problem finding anything within a second or 2. geez already.

Yes I do want everything to be instant. Innovation and efficiency are important. Stagnation is deadly. Literally.

You can make KDE look ugly if you choose to. plenty of people do it, actually.
You can even get rid of the kickoff menu and opt for the kde 3 version.

if technology isnt constantly improving then were missing the whole point to technology.

[Nerd King]

Hating change, telling the devs to fix the bugs before making new stuff, this isn't a linux phenomenon, nor is it new. Go to any forum of a long-running game series and you'll see the same (these are common posts at SI Games forums, the guys who make Football Manager). It's just internet anonymous bloke syndrome I'm afraid.

[blueshiftoverwatch]

You can make KDE look ugly if you choose to. plenty of people do it, actually.
You can even get rid of the kickoff menu and opt for the kde 3 version
If I used Kde, that's what I would do. When I use the kickoff menu I feel like I'm using a GUI developed for technophobes or the mentally deficient.

[lykwydchykyn]

heaven forbid it takes a second or 2 to find something. i guess the me generation today wants everything to be instantaneous. sad. btw, there are a ton of things in system-preferences and i have no problem finding anything within a second or 2. geez already.

Real men ls their bin directories one at a time to find programs. That's how we did it back in my day, and we liked it!

[MCVenom]

Nice troll WinterMadness, you turned this into a KDE vs. Gnome screaming match. :rolleyes:

Personally, I like Gnome because it's simple, easy to theme, and everything just works. I also like the way Gnome organizes applications, I feel like its not quite as intrusive or cluttered as a start/slab menu. I didn't even like mintMenu :p

Gnome's is a bit after XP in terms of percieved 'modernity", not 95-98. I actually prefer the look of a nicely themed Gnome desktop to some of the glassier desktops out there, but that is, once again, my opinion.

KDE isn't for me. Oh well. Linux offers choice. :D

Now that I've got that out, can we please go back to talking about innovation, instead of fighting about what's more innovative? :D

[WinterMadness]

If I used Kde, that's what I would do. When I use the kickoff menu I feel like I'm using a GUI developed for technophobes or the mentally deficient.

You're the one sounding like a technophobe. the KDE kickoff is technology moving forward and youre against it. Thats fine if you dont like it, I wouldnt want to push it on you, but just realize what you sound like.

looking through a list thats inefficient is hardly something I would brag about. the KDE kick off is nice because you can do what you need to do, faster. for most people, unnecessary barriers ought to be brought down.

like I said, if you have a lot of programs (which I tend to) having a search box is the most logical choice. Whether or not it looks pretty is irrelevant in this case. Things looking nice/clean and working faster is not stupid, and theres really no way to make it seem that way. Efficient organization is a property of intelligence.

[WinterMadness]

Nice troll WinterMadness, you turned this into a KDE vs. Gnome screaming match. :rolleyes:

Personally, I like Gnome because it's simple, easy to theme, and everything just works. I also like the way Gnome organizes applications, I feel like its not quite as intrusive or cluttered as a start/slab menu. I didn't even like mintMenu :p

Gnome's is a bit after XP in terms of percieved 'modernity", not 95-98. I actually prefer the look of a nicely themed Gnome desktop to some of the glassier desktops out there, but that is, once again, my opinion.

KDE isn't for me. Oh well. Linux offers choice. :D

Now that I've got that out, can we please go back to talking about innovation, instead of fighting about what's more innovative? :D

Theres nothing remotely close to trolling here.

The discussion came up about people wanting to hold linux back, and those who want to move forward and be more modern. KDE 4+ is an example of modern, while gnome is an example of ancient technology. I am willing to see how the new gnome shell will work.

Yes, linux does offer choice. Thats a good thing. This way people who want to use gnome can. This does not change the fact that KDE is an agent of progress. The KDE and Suse teams are doing a lot for linux and theyre getting condemned seemingly because linux is becoming more efficient.

[23meg]

This pretty much sums it up. When you think you're seeing hypocrisy in "the community", it might just mean the community isn't a single-minded entity but a collection of diverse individuals with unique opinions.

Agreed. Groups are almost always way more heterogeneous compared to how people typically think of them. Here's a concrete example:

During the Karmic development cycle, once it became known shortly after the development summit that Karmic would use a custom KMS solution with XSplash instead of Plymouth, many went into a fury. Accusations of "NIH syndrome", complaints about Ubuntu "reinventing the wheel" were all too common (a simple forum search would reveal the relevant posts), when there were concrete technical reasons (debatable, but existent nevertheless) for not preferring it.

Now, Lucid is being developed, and Plymouth, which is further developed than before, is now in a favorable position and is being tested, installed by default. It's malfunctioning with certain hardware (which is very much expectable in a development branch), and some people have started to advocate that it be removed (http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=8901255&postcount=17), rather than tested and fixed.

Can we now blame "Linux users" for being hypocritical in demanding change, and then resisting it? Not unless we can establish that the same people are involved, and even then, those specific people are to be criticized.

[MCVenom]

Theres nothing remotely close to trolling here.

...gnome is an example of ancient technology.

:rolleyes: ...To you. This topic doesn't need the inflammatory comments, screw the CoC, here's the golden rule:

If you don't have anything nice, helpful, or constructive to say, keep it to yaself! :p

[WinterMadness]

:rolleyes: ...To you. This topic doesn't need the inflammatory comments, screw the CoC, here's the golden rule:

If you don't have anything nice, helpful, or constructive to say, keep it to yaself! :p

i dont see how its inflammatory.

it doesnt take advantage of clearly more efficient means.

[yester64]

Agreed. Groups are almost always way more heterogeneous compared to how people typically think of them. Here's a concrete example:

During the Karmic development cycle, once it became known shortly after the development summit that Karmic would use a custom KMS solution with XSplash instead of Plymouth, many went into a fury. Accusations of "NIH syndrome", complaints about Ubuntu "reinventing the wheel" were all too common (a simple forum search would reveal the relevant posts), when there were concrete technical reasons (debatable, but existent nevertheless) for not preferring it.

Now, Lucid is being developed, and Plymouth, which is further developed than before, is now in a favorable position and is being tested, installed by default. It's malfunctioning with certain hardware (which is very much expectable in a development branch), and some people have started to advocate that it be removed (http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=8901255&postcount=17), rather than tested and fixed.

Can we now blame "Linux users" for being hypocritical in demanding change, and then resisting it? Not unless we can establish that the same people are involved, and even then, those specific people are to be criticized.

How do we judge innovation?
To me innovation would be,
a) better install options (non free or free)
b) automatic server selection for updates
c) stability

top a) i think a lot of people have a harder time to install dvd playback. It would be nice to give people a choice at the installation rather than to dig it up later
top b) with that i mean to get the closest server so you don't have to waste hours for downloading updates etc.. the first time i installed it downloaded everything from the mainserver which was overloaded.
top c) stability is nbr 1. concern. There are always bugs, but to ensure that it is mostly crash free is always a good thing.

I am speaking really as a person who doesn't want to dig a lot later on to make things working. And it can be done and would benefit ubuntu greatly.