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Sporkman
February 26th, 2010, 02:50 PM
Secret Service Computers Only Work at 60 Percent Capacity; Agency Uses 1980s Mainframe

System Is 'Fragile' and Cannot Sustain Tempo of Current or Future Operational Missions

By JASON RYAN
WASHINGTON, Feb. 26, 2010

A classified review of the United States Secret Service's computer technology found that the agency's computers were fully operational only 60 percent of the time because of outdated systems and a reliance on a computer mainframe that dates to the 1980s, according to Sen. Joe Lieberman, I-Conn.

"We have here a premiere law enforcement organization in our country which is responsible for the security of the president and the vice president and other officials of our government, and they have to have better IT than they have,"...

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/us-secret-service-outdated-computer-mainframe-system-1980s/story?id=9945663

steev182
February 26th, 2010, 02:53 PM
Wait, so the Intersect isn't real?!

markbuntu
February 26th, 2010, 10:17 PM
I bet that machine is running unix and all the programmers retired years ago so no one wants to touch it. A perfect opportunity for linux geeks to just slide into high some long term paying government jobs.

LinuxFanBoi
February 26th, 2010, 10:23 PM
It wouldn't surprise me if before this story even went to print that Microsoft was all over it like butter on toast.

Woolio1
February 26th, 2010, 11:05 PM
I highly doubt that the Secret Service would use an old, faulty mainframe. It's probably a cover of some sort for the supercomputer they're using in the basement.

swoll1980
February 26th, 2010, 11:37 PM
If it's classified we all have to die now. To the bunker!

Old_Grey_Wolf
February 27th, 2010, 12:08 AM
It would not surprise me if the Secret Service computers where old. The US government has to decide how it will spend tax payer's money. I worked as a contractor for NASA, and was appalled at the old technology they were forced to use. I can understand that protecting the President is not an IT priority. Other agencies like the FBI, CIA, or whatever, probably collect the intelligence about threats to the President, and the Secret Service are like body guards. At the moment the US government is spending a lot of tax payer's money to bail out banks, and other companies considered to large to allow to go bankrupt. I think the US government will prioritize the cost of upgrading the Secret Service computers, and only do the minimum necessary.

I also don't know what Joe Lieberman may be trying to do to get money funneled to his constituents.

fatality_uk
February 27th, 2010, 01:04 AM
If anyone SERIOUSLY thinks that any countries intelligence agencies will be using 1980's mainframes for anything mission critical, then you are SERIOUSLY mistaken.

hobo14
February 27th, 2010, 01:21 AM
If anyone SERIOUSLY thinks that any countries intelligence agencies will be using 1980's mainframes for anything mission critical, then you are SERIOUSLY mistaken.

Maybe, but the US Secret Service isn't an intelligence agency, it's a protective agency.

fatality_uk
February 27th, 2010, 01:37 AM
Maybe, but the US Secret Service isn't an intelligence agency, it's a protective agency.

Without going too far off track, you are talking complete and utter .... The US Secret Service conduct intelligence gathering and data analysis like any other protective/intelligence agency. They may well have a punch card computer running a coffee machine somewhere, but if you take the time to read what I said, i.e. MISSION CRITICAL being the operative word here, they simply would NOT used 30 years old computers for those tasks.

Simon17
February 27th, 2010, 02:37 AM
If anyone SERIOUSLY thinks that any countries intelligence agencies will be using 1980's mainframes for anything mission critical, then you are SERIOUSLY mistaken.

Do you work for the secret service?
Then how the hell would you know?

If they're anything like any other government agency, their computer system is such a CF that they'll never be able to upgrade it without breaking something.

juancarlospaco
February 27th, 2010, 02:39 AM
No these is the "Honey Pot"...

flukeairwalker
February 27th, 2010, 02:52 AM
First off, the Secret Service is a subsect of the Treasury Department. Makes no sense, but that's the truth. Second, I work in military intelligence, and this news article doesn't surprise me at all. Most of the computers I work with are old technology. Sorry but I can't go into specifics.

Hwæt
February 27th, 2010, 02:53 AM
I bet that machine is running unix and all the programmers retired years ago so no one wants to touch it. A perfect opportunity for linux geeks to just slide into high some long term paying government jobs.

Knowing IBM, the next mainframe they'd buy would either have AIX or Linux on it, anyways.

But really, a government that rakes in trillions of dollars a year in taxes can't shell out $10k for a few new mainframes? Given how the United States accounts for 50% of the world's military spending, you would think that this would be something they'd keep up with, especially since it deals with the organization that watches out for the safety of the commander in chief of the army.

Really, if they're that cheap, they should probably just slap some minimal version of Linux on it and call it a day, provided that they don't require any specific programs made only for the Operating System it's running.

I swear, the downfall of the United States will be the crappy response it has to new technology and adapting to it for non-fighting or defensive purposes. Have we learned nothing from the fall of the Ottoman Empire due to its Janissaries refusing to modernize?

Quite frankly, I don't give a damn if Lieberman is trying to get some cash for a technology firm. Our nation's poor infrastructure and our government's crap computers and crappy cyber defense really need to be addressed. At this point, I don't really care who does it, just as long as it gets done cheaply, safely, and securely.

GMU_DodgyHodgy
February 27th, 2010, 02:54 AM
Without going too far off track, you are talking complete and utter .... The US Secret Service conduct intelligence gathering and data analysis like any other protective/intelligence agency. They may well have a punch card computer running a coffee machine somewhere, but if you take the time to read what I said, i.e. MISSION CRITICAL being the operative word here, they simply would NOT used 30 years old computers for those tasks.


Ummm.......... I can't say too much - but that is not too far from the realm of possibility.

LinuxFanBoi
February 27th, 2010, 03:27 AM
For government and military application, the technology that they decide to use goes through a very expensive testing and development phase to ensure that it is rugged, redundant, secure and in the event it's captured by the enemy, can be denied service easily.

Not to mention all the lobbying and cocktail parties by technology vendors to get the government contracts. for every $2000 spent on a piece of hardware the government probably spent $50,000 in other expenses. To keep pace with the whims and trends in technology when the stuff you have is not deficient for your purpose is expensive, for the government prohibitively so.

MasterNetra
February 27th, 2010, 03:29 AM
A number of the Navy's older battleships still run those types of things. Never needed to update I suppose. Newer Battleships are better equipped but meh. Or so I've heard from a ex-sailor.

LinuxFanBoi
February 27th, 2010, 03:36 AM
it all comes down to cost effectiveness. Does the computer system still perform the needed tasks? would it cost less to upgrade than it currently costs to operate the old hardware?

The government tends not to upgrade it's hardware just because the user cant use it to play Call of Duty in 3D when the boss isn't looking. As a tax payer I tend to like this way of thinking.

witeshark17
February 27th, 2010, 03:56 AM
If it's classified we all have to die now. To the bunker! Here it is; I knew I'd find a good post! :KS

szymon_g
February 27th, 2010, 04:21 AM
and how Skynet is supposed to exist on that old computers?!? it cannot be true...

scouser73
February 27th, 2010, 04:27 AM
Below are just two examples of what the United States Secret Service do, and I'm sure they do other work which I assume is where the old technology is being used.

http://www.secretservice.gov/


After the assassination of President William McKinley in 1901, Congress directed the Secret Service to protect the President of the United States. Protection remains a key mission of the United States Secret Service.


Authorization

Today, the Secret Service is authorized by law to protect:
The president, the vice president, (or other individuals next in order of succession to the Office of the President), the president-elect and vice president-elect
The immediate families of the above individuals
Former presidents and their spouses for their lifetimes, except when the spouse remarries. In 1997, Congressional legislation became effective limiting Secret Service protection to former presidents for a period of not more than 10 years from the date the former president leaves office
Children of former presidents until age 16
Visiting heads of foreign states or governments and their spouses traveling with them, other distinguished foreign visitors to the United States, and official representatives of the United States performing special missions abroad
Major presidential and vice presidential candidates, and their spouses within 120 days of a general presidential election
Other individuals as designated per Executive Order of the President
National Special Security Events, when designated as such by the Secretary of the Department of Homeland Security


Today the agency's primary investigative mission is to safeguard the payment and financial systems of the United States. This has been historically accomplished through the enforcement of counterfeiting statutes to preserve the integrity of United States currency, coin and financial obligations.

Since 1984, the Secret Service's investigative responsibilities have expanded to include crimes that involve financial institution fraud, computer and telecommunications fraud, false identification documents, access device fraud, advance fee fraud, electronic funds transfers and money laundering as it relates to the agency's core violations.

fatality_uk
February 27th, 2010, 11:40 AM
Do you work for the secret service?
Then how the hell would you know?

If they're anything like any other government agency, their computer system is such a CF that they'll never be able to upgrade it without breaking something.

I don't have to have left the Earth to know it's not flat!

msrie
February 27th, 2010, 11:45 AM
This is absolute bull, they have super computers doing all sorts of things, just that will not be telling us.

LinuxFanBoi
February 27th, 2010, 02:47 PM
They put the "Secret" in Secret Service for a reason.

My suspicion is that this 30 year old system is probably an archive of some kind and is perfectly suited to handle the existing data that it stores. It probably costs more to take the data out of the archive, sort it, reformat it for a new system, than it is costing them to operate. They probably have newer technology for newer records.

The secret service protects members of every branch of the US Government as well as the integrity of our currency. I highly doubt they are underfunded by any stretch of the imagination.

Mark Phelps
March 1st, 2010, 02:30 AM
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/us-secret-service-outdated-computer-mainframe-system-1980s/story?id=9945663

Wow -- if you're gullible enough to believe this, I feel sorry for you ...

Just to consider two of many items in this so-called story ...

"classified review" -- results of REAL classified reviews are NOT released to the public, especially when such information might reveal a weakness or deficiency. What IS released to the public is what the Government DECIDES to release. Any resemblance between that and the true report is coincidence.

Senator Lieberman ... Not to pick on Joe, but anytime a member of congress releases any information, think "What can they say that will maximize their chances of turning a temp job into a lifetime occupation?" Since this was a "classified review", clearly, the public will have no access to the details, so we could not possibly refute ANYTHING that any member of Congress has to say about it -- meaning, they can (and will) say whatever they want that serves their best interests.

Hwæt
March 1st, 2010, 05:29 AM
Senator Lieberman ... Not to pick on Joe, but anytime a member of congress releases any information, think "What can they say that will maximize their chances of turning a temp job into a lifetime occupation?" Since this was a "classified review", clearly, the public will have no access to the details, so we could not possibly refute ANYTHING that any member of Congress has to say about it -- meaning, they can (and will) say whatever they want that serves their best interests.

There's one big hole in your conspiracy theory: What would he have to gain by trying to fix non-existent computers? If he's trying to fix non-existent computers, then that doesn't help his special interests because they aren't getting a sale, and it doesn't convince the rest of congress to vote his way because they would already know about the computers not existing. Plus, the American public doesn't really care if he fixes some 20 year old computers, to be honest with you. Most average Americans barely know that there are more operating systems than Mac OS X and Windows.

Think these things through a bit better before posting them, ok?

fatality_uk
March 1st, 2010, 02:48 PM
There's one big hole in your conspiracy theory: What would he have to gain by trying to fix non-existent computers?

One word - FUNDING

As ALL departmental budgets are going to be tightened over the coming months, a good angle for any department is to say "Hey look, we use 30 year old kit. We are a key department and unless funding is increased, we can't be sure we can deliver our services with 100% effectiveness"

It ain't rocket science!

RevKeltina
March 1st, 2010, 03:06 PM
Nothing our government is using these days would surprise me. My dad brought home an ammo can of medical supplies that he carried in Nam and it was full of stuff stamp-dated in the 1940's......the government can be the ultimate pack-rat and will use something until it simply dies of old age....including some of it's people!

Johnsie
March 1st, 2010, 03:33 PM
Windows 3.1 is still used alot today. Many McDonalds stores have Windows 3.1 workstation in the little offices for their 'managers'.

Also, If you go into one of the older Burger Kings and have a look at their tills you'll notice that they are using 1980's technology. The machine that they all network to is often a Windows 3.1 machine running software used for recording sales.


So, if two of the biggest companies in the world still use 1980's hardware and software to do their business then it is possible to assume that the US Secret Services does something similar in some cases. I would expect that the actual corporate network used by the SS is based on more modern Microsoft technology... distributed exchange, active server directory etc. but they might also have some older systems running for specialised services.

Sporkman
March 1st, 2010, 03:50 PM
I'd imagine the upgrade conversation would go something like this:

IT manager: "Sir, we need to upgrade our system. It's old, overworked, and I don't know how much longer it will last. It's also very hard to maintain."

Admin boss: "It's still works, doesn't it? What do you mean it's hard to maintain?"

IT manager: "It OS is out of date, and we have to write arcane scripts to do anything and everything - there are no modern tools installed or available."

Admin boss: "Look, we all have problems - I'd like fancy stuff too. How much would upgrading to a new system cost?"

IT manager: "$63 million."

Admin boss: "You're funny. I'll 'get right on that', haha. Now get back to work. Call me when there's an actual problem."

Tristam Green
March 1st, 2010, 03:51 PM
it all comes down to cost effectiveness. Does the computer system still perform the needed tasks? would it cost less to upgrade than it currently costs to operate the old hardware?

The government tends not to upgrade it's hardware just because the user cant use it to play Call of Duty in 3D when the boss isn't looking. As a tax payer I tend to like this way of thinking.

This is the correct way of thinking. Consider that my netbook has more processing power than the Apollo spacecraft combined.


I don't have to have left the Earth to know it's not flat!

You also live in England, where your exposure to the Secret Service is really confined to "oops, I stepped over the red tape while the visiting US dignitary was visiting the Queen".


Windows 3.1 is still used alot today. Many McDonalds stores have Windows 3.1 workstation in the little offices for their 'managers'.

Also, If you go into one of the older Burger Kings and have a look at their tills you'll notice that they are using 1980's technology. The machine that they all network to is often a Windows 3.1 machine running software used for recording sales.


So, if two of the biggest companies in the world still use 1980's hardware and software to do their business then it is possible to assume that the US Secret Services does something similar in some cases. I would expect that the actual corporate network used by the SS is based on more modern Microsoft technology... distributed exchange, active server directory etc. but they might also have some older systems running for specialised services.

That'd be Windows 3.11 for Workgroups, not Windows 3.1 :D

chucky chuckaluck
March 1st, 2010, 04:10 PM
The last time a president was shot was in the 80's when this stuff was new. (I'm just sayin'...)

fatality_uk
March 1st, 2010, 08:47 PM
you also live in england, where your exposure to the secret service is really confined to "oops, i stepped over the red tape while the visiting us dignitary was visiting the queen".

lovvvl

Alfred_Jodocus
March 1st, 2010, 10:29 PM
Good thing no one has mentioned yet what hardware the board computer of the Space Shuttle is using.... <evil grin>

As long as it works and performs all required functions - don't mess with it.

t0p
March 1st, 2010, 10:38 PM
I don't believe this story. The Secret Service is there (amongst other reasons) to protect the president from assassination. Such plots may be formulated by organizations who might use encryption to protect their communications. Therefore the SS need enough computing power to crack readily-available encryption like GPG. A 1980s mainframe running at 60% capacity has absolutely no chance to crack GPG - even a farm of the latest computers will find that a tough job. Therefore I do not believe that the SS will be so poorly equipped.

As for those forum members who've said stuff along the lines of: "I can't go into specifics, but my top secret job makes me think this story is true" - oh, please shut up! Anyone who actually does work in Top Secret SS Jobs wouldn't post comments like that. Anyone who has knowledge of this kind of stuff would just smile to themselves and let us ignorant fools talk a load of crap to each other. So quit trying to make us think you're James Bond - you're just making yourself look stupid.

fatality_uk
March 1st, 2010, 11:48 PM
Quite like the James Bond posts :)

And anyone interested in being James Bond (UK ONLY, no jobs for Johnny foreigner) :P

http://www.sis.gov.uk/output/careers-1.html

Hwæt
March 2nd, 2010, 12:18 AM
One word - FUNDING

We are a key department and unless funding is increased, we can't be sure we can deliver our services with 100% effectiveness"

...and this is bad because...?

Do you want the secret service to end up like the patent office? Underfunded, outdated, lazy, overworked, and useless due to those reasons?



I don't believe this story. The Secret Service is there (amongst other reasons) to protect the president from assassination.

You would be very surprised. The infrastructure in the U.S. is in terrible shape, and money doesn't get spent on crap unless it deals with blowing someone's head off in another country... given the U.S. government's stance on domestic issues, it wouldn't be too hard to imagine this being the truth.



Such plots may be formulated by organizations who might use encryption to protect their communications. Therefore the SS need enough computing power to crack readily-available encryption like GPG. A 1980s mainframe running at 60% capacity has absolutely no chance to crack GPG - even a farm of the latest computers will find that a tough job. Therefore I do not believe that the SS will be so poorly equipped.


The FBI and CIA mainly the organizations that deal with things such as that.


So quit trying to make us think you're James Bond - you're just making yourself look stupid.

Clam down, they're just light hearted jokes. Don't take things so seriously. :)

Old_Grey_Wolf
March 2nd, 2010, 01:25 AM
Quite like the James Bond posts :)

And anyone interested in being James Bond (UK ONLY, no jobs for Johnny foreigner) :P

http://www.sis.gov.uk/output/careers-1.html

In the USA:

CIA here https://www.cia.gov/careers/
NSA here http://www.nsa.gov/careers/?gclid=CLq-zd3lmKACFQkhnAod01kicg
DIA here http://www.dia.mil/employment/index.html
FBI here http://www.fbijobs.gov/03.asp

There are other intelligence related agencies I think; however, I can't think of their names at the moment.

d3v1150m471c
March 2nd, 2010, 01:29 AM
The NSA uses a super computer that has a warehoused sized cooling system. It can write and crack encryptions that would otherwise take normal computers thousands of years to crack within a matter of seconds. pretty sure the US has its bases covered.

madhi19
March 2nd, 2010, 07:45 AM
Considering all the key words used in past posts it pretty much official an NSA analyst is or was reading this thread! "Hello NSA analyst!" lolll

Warpnow
March 2nd, 2010, 07:49 AM
wait, so the intersect isn't real?!

blasphemy!!!!

hobo14
March 2nd, 2010, 08:38 AM
The NSA uses a super computer that has a warehoused sized cooling system. It can write and crack encryptions that would otherwise take normal computers thousands of years to crack within a matter of seconds. pretty sure the US has its bases covered.

That difference in time you are talking about is tens of billions of times faster!

A single desktop PC can reach 80 Gigaflops, ten billion times faster is 0.8 Zettaflops!! :lolflag:

No-one, including the NSA, gets anywhere near a place that's still not anywhere near 0.8 Zflops. (The Jaguar, the fastest publicly known, has a theoretical peak of 2.3 Petaflops, and has reached 1.6 Petaflops. That's several hundred thousand times slower than the speed you are talking about.)

Sporkman
March 2nd, 2010, 02:33 PM
That difference in time you are talking about is tens of billions of times faster!

A single desktop PC can reach 80 Gigaflops, ten billion times faster is 0.8 Zettaflops!! :lolflag:

No-one, including the NSA, gets anywhere near a place that's still not anywhere near 0.8 Zflops. (The Jaguar, the fastest publicly known, has a theoretical peak of 2.3 Petaflops, and has reached 1.6 Petaflops. That's several hundred thousand times slower than the speed you are talking about.)

You're talking about the abilities of general purpose processors - you can go much faster on a particular task with specialized processing via FPGAs or custom ASICs.