An inevitible thread of logic

[degarb]

A few things started coming together over last week or so. First, some cyber terrorism bill was reported in some off main stream media (nothing on main media), then I hear Ubuntu is going cloud computing in other forum, I learned Google was hacked (by Chinese), then I learn the NSA was hacked in 2007 and someone got away with 1/3 library of congress' amount of bytes (how we wage and conduct war), then on NPR I hear a key advisor to President for technological policy advocate a crack down on the Internet by mandating identification of all identities on login (inevitably with tracking).

Now just do the math, people! Cloud computing will lead to downfall of a free internet, and possibly a free society (like we aren't there already). Centralize and you will invite terrorism, which invites govt control. There are two parties that want this: governments that don't like free flow of information, and businesses/tycoons (free internet means free: news, tv, radio, podcasts, phone calls, business solutions, and more.). Do the math.

I have always been against renting software/os, and have seen in analogous to serfdom and end to improvement based upgrades. But I didn't forsee this downside!

James Lewis, was his name. And when he said, never before has Business so depended on this tool, and now we need to reign in the Wild West mantality to protect it. I wanted to yell at him, "If the tool doesn't work, then go back to paper, or secure it, you <snip>!"

[cariboo]

THis isn't a security question, it belongs in the Cafe

[thatguruguy]

THis isn't a security question, it belongs in the Cafe

Does it belong anywhere, really?

[blueshiftoverwatch]

I think the OP is preaching to the choir, this being a Linux forum.

[degarb]

The cafe is fine. But I am saying is that cloud computing should not be pursued.

Also, I am looking for someone to do an intelligent refutation. When you point out the obvious and certain negative, you are called a lunatic and become stoned. This, because if people believe it, they must DO something. And this makes them uncomfortable.

I think if you couldn't see the crash 08, you were blind. And those that kept harping from 07 were called lunes. And if you can't see what is inevitibly coming, you are blind.


When a poster in yahoo, posted in 2003 that the US was not becoming a service economy, instead were financing by selling bonds, I did my best to refute it, but knew the certainty. The inevitible conclusion that foreign govts were buying these bonds and likely rolling the elections, and nothing could be done was too hard to admit. The next two steps of the logic for the future is too. Then, I would have never thought I would have lived to see the overthrow of the US constitution by the officials of the govt.


I am just pointing out where we are as a Nation in US, and how far we have come in 20-30 years. We know you never waste a good emengcy to get passed what you need. So, of course cloud computing and inevitible ramifications is the sole point. I know this will take some historical knowledge and perspective, as well as knowlege of human nature and governmental incrementalism; far more than technical knowledge.

[Hwæt]

An advisor is just that: an advisor. He doesn't have legislative powers. Hell, the President himself doesn't even have legislative powers! All the president can do is tell troops where to go. The poor man can't even make them fire! To think that he has complete and total influence over everyone in both houses of congress is just mad. We've seen the disaster that was the health care bill (I personally hope we get universal health care, but that's not an issue meant for this forum), which proved that the president can't convince everyone in his party to vote his way.

You're making a mountain out of a molehill here. You're basically screaming that the sky is falling because a man with no power advised another man with barely any power to do something that he can't do.

Plus, Ubuntu is not moving towards cloud computing as a whole. Ooo, they offered one file storing service that is cloud-based, and therefore the entire thing must become a cloud service, as well!

You're extrapolating, very illogically.

Plus, even if cloud computing becomes popular, there will always be a need for large rigs. What the hell do you think the content servers will be? Netbooks?

By any chance, do you work for Fox News? Because, Chicken Little, you're saying the sky is falling.

[degarb]

An advisor is just that: an advisor.


You're basically screaming that the sky is falling ...

Plus, Ubuntu is not moving towards cloud computing as a whole. Ooo, they offered one file storing service that is cloud-based, and therefore the entire thing must become a cloud service, as well!

You're extrapolating, very illogically.

Plus, even if cloud computing becomes popular, there will always be a need for large rigs.

By any chance, do you work for Fox News? Because, Chicken Little, you're saying the sky is falling.

Thanks for the time for your reply. Not too personal, which is great. I outlined what I though were your points and explain the faults, while trying not to preach on other issues [30 years in the observing] besides , "cloud computing's impact on future Internet freedom".

You forget, I --and most people that advocate this position-- truly fear, ending up on some domestic terrorist list, for even pointing out the corruption and advocating freedom protections.

Saying I am a chicken little is a no more logical or solid rebuttal than calling me a lunatic, fat, short, black, etc. Furthermore, the facts belie your argument. (Though, refuting any irrelevant point always successfully pulls a thread off topic, to protect the main issue being debated: It is hard/impossible to argue that the sky hasn't already fallen, in so many constitutional rights. (read 10th amendment) The core is corruption and the fix is to first rat out all appearance of it, followed the motivations for it. This is a very historical period of time. We have lasting influence of those that will come with powers as deep as Washington and Jefferson. We should all lament for our kids/grand-kids, if we have any foresight... Darn me, I just digressed.)


The 'kernel' of the question is when you centralise (a monopoly on services will follow the last 30 years of monopolization/dualopolization path of every business), this will invite some vulnerability, and people will once again scream for some right to be curtailed and taken away.

I know human nature (definitely better than most around me), and purchasing habits. It will be very easy to get people to give up there software and desktop capabilities. Offer it free, until there are no more desktops. I know even myself find using google docs since I compose spreadsheets/odts on any of 3 computers at my house (depending on which room I am in, and any of a dozen when at work. I don't really back up to desktop, too much trouble, and google hasn't offered any automatic tools for this. I know I am a stupid serf for this behaviour. But this is just something I am lulled into, because it works. I don't think of vulnerabilities I am taking on as a purchaser down the road of these services or what catastrophe could lay down the road, by the hacking ability of some lone genius or funded genius.

Fox, Cnn, and MSNBC all ignore stories of real significance, instead focusing on non- stories. They play the right off the left, to ignore the real issues . There are huge economic pressures that shape their reporting. That was my point. Real news is often only reported by other sources, which are hated by both the govt and these big businesses!

This isn't just one advisor! This is entire congress minus 4 no votes. I suggest more research in to current Internet legislation (slippery slope) that is already passed by house, working way through, that is not being reported. And think about future restrictions that will come. Anything that will lead to centralisation, will expedite this.

[falconindy]

I --and most people that advocate this position-- truly fear, ending up on some domestic terrorist list, for even pointing out the corruption and advocating freedom protections.
Please speak for yourself, and only for yourself. People who "fear" ending up on such a list have more things to hide than their beliefs about computing and the Internet.

[thatguruguy]

When you point out the obvious and certain negative, you are called a lunatic and become stoned.

I think the ship has sailed on the "becoming stoned" part of your rant.

That being said, despite your occasional (and somewhat tenuous) references to cloud computing, it strikes me that this thread is primarily concerned with politics.

[Kai69]

Simple dont use cloud computing if a hacker can get into the pentagon its even easyer for a hacker to get into any files you you leave on the internet

[macabrem]

I think the original poster brought up some good points, and verified some insight that I have had into cloud computing.

I'm unsure why there seemed to be so many attacks on degarb regarding his post - it seemed fairly logical and non-abrasive.

It's not necessarily about needing to "hide" information, per se, but the fact that cloud computing opens Pandora's Box for many thus far unforeseen vulnerabilities.

Cloud computing does change the "game" - once our information is "out there", it does allow more potential for widespread terrorism on our information; which would allow the government more excuses to mandate more control.

[MoebusNet]

If you saw the movie "Enemy of the State" starring Will Smith and Gene Hackman, you will remember a scene where Gene Hackman's character was using a computer inside of a Farraday cage. When Will Smith's character asked about it, Gene's character commented that the computer was not connected to the Internet and couldn't be monitored from the outside for any radio-frequency emissions the computer generated. He justified this by saying that if there was a way to connect one computer to another, then by definition the computer was hackable.

Of course, this is just my hazy recollection of the movie; I'm sure someone will be able to pull up the relevant video and correct my errors.

Still, it reminds me of an old saying, "The maximum number of people who can keep a secret is three; but only if two of them are dead."

Information security can never be absolute, but can be maximized by making it as difficult as possible to access the information. Of course, the more secure the information is, the more difficult to utilize. Therein lies the conflict: security vs. usability.

The Cloud will make accessing information easier not only for the owner, but for everyone else. Understand this, and manage your data accordingly.

[ElSlunko]

The Cloud will make accessing information easier not only for the owner, but for everyone else. Understand this, and manage your data accordingly.

The only point of contention, and I don't mean to sound like I disagree with you, is that whether I could provide better security for my files or some 3rd party vendor. Clearly the 3rd party vendor is a much larger target to be hacked but they might have better security than my own PC connected to the internet. Then again who wants to steal my data? Well once (crosses fingers) my business flourishes & I have cash to worry about as well as the privacy of my customers then I can begin to worry then I suppose.

[degarb]

The only point of contention, and I don't mean to sound like I disagree with you, is that whether I could provide better security for my files or some 3rd party vendor. Clearly the 3rd party vendor is a much larger target to be hacked but they might have better security than my own PC connected to the internet. Then again who wants to steal my data? Well once (crosses fingers) my business flourishes & I have cash to worry about as well as the privacy of my customers then I can begin to worry then I suppose.

The point is that viruses are considered mischief, while attacks on Google=terrorism. The laws that ensue--concerning terrorism- always affect user freedoms, and ultimately free speech/governmental grab on control thereof.

[Also, anyone can kill any person easier than blowup some large institution. But as a political point, there is no perceived value to killing an individual. Certainly, less information gained. The government alledged hack in 2007, stole 1/3 the information, in size, as the library of Congress, with just about all the US military secrets. This level of informational leakage/damage is unprecedented!]

[Chronon]

How do you know how much information was stolen and to what it pertained? Why should I trust your information about this?

[Hwæt]

There are huge economic pressures that shape their reporting. That was my point. Real news is often only reported by other sources, which are hated by both the govt and these big businesses!

This isn't just one advisor! This is entire congress minus 4 no votes. I suggest more research in to current Internet legislation (slippery slope) that is already passed by house, working way through, that is not being reported. And think about future restrictions that will come. Anything that will lead to centralisation, will expedite this.

I want sources. Something of this magnitude would've hit Digg or Slashdot by now. Plus, by source, I mean someone credible. Don't like U.S. news providers? Fine. I want BBC or Al Jazeera grade articles then. If you come up with just ONE linsux or BoycottNovell article, I will discredit you and leave this conversation.

Nothing personal, it's just that you've offered no hard evidence to your claims. For all I know, you're spewing out political propaganda disguised as a Free-software issue. To be honest, that's exactly what this all looks like to me. You've done nothing but bash the legislature with claims that they're plotting against us. This is something very much akin to what the Republican party and FOX news are doing: giving half truths and bad sources in order to sway public opinion.



How do you know how much information was stolen and to what it pertained? Why should I trust your information about this?

+1

[degarb]

You prove my point on how ill informed we can be. Bet you know everything about the latest college student abduction in the Carribean.

http://www.learnoutloud.com/Podcast-Directory/Arts-and-Entertainment/Film_-Music_-Radio_-TV_-and-Pop-Culture/NPR-Fresh-Air-Podcast/22361

Or ask for archive of Npr fresh air James Lewis Interview on Cyber terrorism. Short of that, I could share the podcasts if you pm me.

Also, I did a google search this morning on Cent com being breached. Got other hits about other breaches, equally serious but on the commercial level, (first 5 hits.), one in 2005 about the PRC stepping up probes on the Pentagon firewall (I guess up to something like 100 million per day. The Terry Gross Interview this guy is an insider. The way they did 2007 breach was to scatter jump drives in the parking lot or restroom with the virus. Common knowledge that if there is will, there is a way. Beyond specifics of earlier breaches, there is human nature and history.

[Hwæt]

You prove my point on how ill informed we can be. Bet you know everything about the latest college student abduction in the Carribean.

http://www.learnoutloud.com/Podcast-Directory/Arts-and-Entertainment/Film_-Music_-Radio_-TV_-and-Pop-Culture/NPR-Fresh-Air-Podcast/22361

Oh, because he heard it in a podcast on the INTERNET, then it MUST be true!

How about some sources from real news outlets. I'm not going to believe podcasts from some random source on the Internet.

Ooo! And college student gets kidnapped in a foreign country! OMG, alert the press! Should we tell the papers to run an article on EVERY kidnapping of EVERY day? No. Kidnappings are tragic, but not rare enough, nor have enough of an impact on ALL of our lives, to be in the news 24/7. Nice ad hominem attack, but I'm not buying it.

Consider yourself discredited as another guy wearing a tin foil hat. I'm outta this discussion.

Something of the magnitude you're talking about WOULD have ended up on Google News, Digg, or Slashdot. Us geeks care about our Internet, so that news would travel VERY fast. Chances are, if they haven't picked it up yet, then it's either not credible or not worth the time.

[degarb]

Even replying goes off topic. Mostly... Kinda. Well, in a fuzzy sense. I hate being dragged off topic, but here goes.

<<Oh, because he heard it in a podcast on the INTERNET, then it MUST be true!..How about some sources from real news outlets. >>

You seem to argue (actually your whole point) that you have full faith in the news you get, so screw the Internet and protections of user freedom. [More in meanderings at bottom. ]

>>Ooo! And college student gets kidnapped in a foreign country! OMG, alert the press! Should we tell the papers to run an article on EVERY kidnapping of EVERY day? No. Kidnappings are tragic, but not rare enough, nor have enough of an impact on ALL of our lives, to be in the news 24/7. Nice ad hominem attack, but I'm not buying it.>>

See, I totally think E news and these kinds of reports have no place in National news. If really news reported, there would be no time for these stories. [dangerously off topic]

<<Consider yourself discredited as another guy wearing a tin foil hat. >>
Actually, you used ad hominum incorrectly, but I will use it here to describe the above.


The "mentioned" breaches made it to NPR, leo laporte (google breach by Chinese), I know. You think they broadcast on front page these breaches?

Besides, past breaches are irrelevant. If you think they are relevant to premise, you miss the point, entirely. The messenger of bad news, emperors cloth or trends ALWAYS gets shot! This because they can't refute the logic.

Only a third of people will agree on nearly anything. 1/3 asleep.

------------------------------------

Footnote and more meanderings, not central to my main point:

Part of my point is much of news is not reported (about the only point of mine even assailed once in this thread); the centralisation of the outlets has tainted the reporting; even revenue stream sources will taint reporting. You seem to argue you have full faith in the new you get, so screw the Internet and protections of user freedom. At best, where do you think they get their news now days?

On the cynical side: The "ginger"of 2001 non story that swept every new outlet, just showed me how interconnected and corrupt main stream new was. The story should never have been reported, much less in every medium. Most people totally missed the significance of this. Then, by 2003 i realized most stuff just simply is ignored, finally making months late. So called leading edge talk, has degraded into big money pushing coolaid (talking points, many old and out of context) people are buying, seldom is an issue discussed, if you listen closely.

Sure, the core premise will totally go over the heads of those unconscious of human nature and governmental trends, and past civilisation/ historical cycles. A good premise, with a bad message, will be reviled by many: some, because it negative affects them, and, because of the fact that they can't find a good hole to comfort them self; some, because they are part of the web.

I do appreciate, that at least one point of the premise was discussed:near religious like faith in the mainstream media.

[Chronon]

Fnord!

[thatguruguy]

Not to sound like a broken record, but I'm going to repeat my earlier point. Despite your occasional (and somewhat tenuous) references to cloud computing, it strikes me that this thread is primarily concerned with politics.

[degarb]

Not to sound like a broken record, but I'm going to repeat my earlier point. Despite your occasional (and somewhat tenuous) references to cloud computing, it strikes me that this thread is primarily concerned with politics.

My bad if I strayed into a fuzzy area. I know on second post I meandered too much and under time constraint, so was unable to edit out any meanderings, which do as you say have a tenuous relevance to main point. But striking is the vista (no ref. intended to MS.) especially, when picture is taken in as a whole, rather than as a more appropriate, single, more focused component.

[degarb]

Fnord!

Why the blank post?;) Yeah, I feel uneasy about it anyway. There should be a law against posts like that!

[Chronon]

I see. Would you agree that today is Sweetmorn, the 46th day of Chaos in the YOLD 3176?

[HPD2]

Two things, If man can make it, man can break it and the only truly secure computer is one buried in concrete, in a lead lined safe, with the power turned off and the network cable cut.